Editing User talk:Mario54671

lol who are you [[User:Mnimyfi|Mnimyfi]]

==Nintendo DSi vs Nintendo 3DS==
Mario54671, please stop edit warring with UltraMario and talk about it before making the edit. If we can come to a resolution then the edit can be made, but right now you two are just undoing eachother's edits.

Now, what I would like to point out about the DSi is that it uses the exact same cartridges as the DS, meanwhile the 3DS has new cartridges for the 3D games (at least that's what I heard). The DSi is basically a big DS with a camera; it uses the same cartridges, has the same functions, etc. I would personally say that the DSi is definitely a sequel to the DS. {{User:Marioguy1/sig}}

:: It isn't, though, and you basically explained it for me.  Nintendo themselves came out not long after it came out and clarified it wasn't a successor to the DS, and their REAL successor was still in development.  If the company themselves say it, I say it's not worth debating, and the whole idea should be definitely rejected.  If we were to go by this ridiculous idea, then you should at least keep it consistent by also including it in the 3DS section.  Since after all, it SHOULD say "successor to the DSi" based on what you guys think (even though Nintendo came out and said that it's the successor to the DS AND the DSi, as in, they're the same thing, as in, the whole idea is flat out wrong)
: -Mario54671 (I don't use this site really at all, I just simply come to edit things that are just flat-out wrong or very inconsistent)

==Source?==
"Calling the DS Lite, DSi, or the DSi XL a successor to the DS is unquestionably incorrect. Nintendo made it clear that the 3DS is the successor. But if it's somehow essential to include them, then this is the best way to do so." Do you have a source for that quote? {{User:Xzelion/sig}}

There's the E3 2010 press conference where Iwata discusses how they've given a lot of thought to the screen, "...because of course, Nintendo 3DS is a successor to Nintendo DS."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzDf5IGNyBg&t=15m48s

There's also common sense.  Why would they make a big deal about introducing the 3DS and NOT the DS Lite, or the DSi?  Calling the DS Lite a successor to the DS is like calling Gameboy Micro or Gameboy Advance SP a successor to Gameboy Advance, OR like calling the slimmer Wii from the Wii Family Edition a "successor" to the Wii when in actuality, the Wii U is the successor.  They're the same thing, they do the same things, they just redesigned them!  It's common sense, Nintendo doesn't need to tell you that.

== Hi ==

wanna be friends user:meeper :0 =)

== Edit summaries ==

What you said [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate&diff=2562540&oldid=2562507 here on ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''{{'}}s page] was very rude. There's no need for comments like "Those who state otherwise are clearly vision impaired and have no business editing on this site" anywhere on the wiki (and please don't discourage editing either). If you think something needs to be brought up, do it on a talk page. EDIT: [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate&diff=prev&oldid=2539462 The one before it] was also rather condescending.{{User:Alex95/sig}} 01:15, 13 December 2018 (EST)

:: If it's any consolation, I'll help you pick the frame for your new glasses.

: -Mario54671

== RE: SMM2 SMB1 Sky Theme ==

I had already stated [[Special:Diff/2746116|in a previous summary shortening the information]] that I had moved it to theme's page ([[Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.)#Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]) which was linked in the section and is the more relevant location for this information. But thanks for providing that proof ''(You may want to tell DYKGaming that, too)'' - this is something that [[MarioWiki:Citations|should be sourced]] in the main article as well. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:48, August 24, 2019 (EDT)

:Yes, I already commented on their video.  As it happens, the person responsible for the video cited '''this site''' as a reference for that, which is what prompted me to want to change it.  People really need to be careful what they post here, because I often see this site cited for questionable "facts" which tend to originate from one person who, to be fair, probably just made a mistake, but nonetheless ended up spreading a lie.  Thankfully this particular instance was just trivial knowledge, but it could've been worse.

::Mario54671

::What if I told you that one person in this particular instance was me {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:28, August 24, 2019 (EDT)

== NSMB Ghost House Theme ==

Regarding the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Ghost House theme and whether or not it's an arrangement of "Obake Yashiki BGM," it's not just that the ''NSMB'' theme is played in a similar style to the ''SMW'' theme, but it is actually the same four notes (B, Db, A, C) played in the same style just in a slightly altered pattern. This makes the beginning of the ''NSMB'' theme an arrangement of "Obake Yashiki BGM" rather than simply being inspired by it. I hope this clears up any confusion! [[User:ToxicOJ|ToxicOJ]] ([[User talk:ToxicOJ|talk]]) 11:15, November 23, 2023 (EST)



:Calling it an "arrangement" is still incorrect, and that was my main point. This isn't like, say, ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder's'' Airship theme, where a good portion of it is original, but then the main subject is taken directly from the ''SMB1'' Airship theme from ''Super Mario Maker''. It doesn't matter if the openings use the same notes, the opening motif isn't the main subject of the theme. The main subjects are completely different. We're talking about a mere few seconds of music here, not an entire section or block of music. But yes, because this one sounds a lot more like it's intentionally evoking the opening of ''Super Mario World's'' theme, I left it in and just rewrote the section.



:In fact, I take issue with the entire page. I didn't want to completely tear it down, but I wanted to see if there was any way to rewrite it, because there are many things wrong with it. For example, many of these examples of ''Super Mario World's'' theme being "reused" are terrible. ''Super Mario Kart's'' Ghost Valley theme is a good example (far better than ''New Super Mario Bros.''), but ''Mario Kart: Super Circuit'' being included there because of "Boo Lake" and "Broken Pier" is a bit silly. This theme reuses the ''Super Mario Kart'' Ghost Valley main subject, yes, but it doesn't include any portion of ''Super Mario World's'' Ghost House theme at all; it only takes the original portion of Ghost Valley… the part that ISN'T like ''Super Mario World'' at all. The portion that ''Super Mario Kart'' referenced from ''Super Mario World'' is completely gone. Therefore ''Mario Kart: Super Circuit'', ''Mario Kart Tour'', and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' should be removed entirely. In fact, I find it funny that ''Super Circuit'' was included here, yet Banshee Boardwalk from ''Mario Kart 64'' was excluded… even though that theme ALSO reuses the Ghost Valley motif. By these standards, Banshee Boardwalk should also be included, but isn't. So even here there doesn't seem to be any consistency.



:This is the problem when your standard of what is considered an "arrangement" is only a mere few seconds of music and vague similarities. ANYTHING can be considered an "arrangement" by those standards through special mental gymnastics. Things become too opinion-based and less objective, and it becomes impossible to properly distinguish what is an intentional and what is merely coincidence. And case in point, ''Mario Kart 64'' being excluded shows that this vague standard isn't consistent at all.

::- Mario54671

:::A few points:
:::*I am not saying that the the entirety of the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' ghost house theme or the entirety of the ''Super Mario Kart'' Ghost Valley theme are arrangements of "Obake Yashiki BGM," I am only saying that they ''contain'' arrangements of "Obake Yashiki BGM," which is why the original version of the article stated that the very beginning of the ''NSMB'' theme was an arrangement of "Obake Yashiki BGM" rather than the whole theme.
:::*Recurring theme articles include full arrangements of the relevant theme as well as partial arrangements included in just a part of a track. The length of a section of a track is irrelevant to whether that section is an arrangement, and whether or not the arrangement is the "main subject" of the track is irrelevant to its inclusion in a recurring theme article. If half of a track is an arrangement of the ''SMB'' "Ground Theme," and another track only contains the first few notes of the "Ground Theme," both tracks are still considered to contain arrangements of the "Ground Theme."
:::*After taking another listen, I agree with you that the Boo Lake theme from ''Super Circuit'', ''Tour'', and ''8 Deluxe'' are not similar enough to be considered arrangements of "Obake Yashiki BGM," as unlike ''NSMB'', the Boo Lake theme's notes are completely different than "Obake Yashiki BGM." That is my mistake, and I will remove them from the article.
:::*I still believe that the beginning of the ''NSMB'' theme is an arrangement since it features the exact same notes in the same style, rhythm, and context as "Obake Yashiki BGM," the only difference being that the notes are arranged slightly differently.
:::*The lack of Banshee Boardwalk's inclusion was not a statement of my standard of which tracks should be included and which should not, it was simply an oversight on my part. All of the recurring theme articles that I have created are somewhat a work in progress; I try my best to include all arrangements I can find, but I sometimes miss some. Besides, similarly to Boo Lake, after listening to the Banshee Boardwalk theme, I don't think it is similar enough to be considered an arrangement of "Obake Yashiki BGM."
:::Thank you for the input, please let me know if you have any more questions! [[User:ToxicOJ|ToxicOJ]] ([[User talk:ToxicOJ|talk]]) 19:58, November 23, 2023 (EST)


:::::That's not what an "arrangement" is, though, which is why I find the use of that term is inappropriate. By that standard, we should be calling Koji Kondo's famous ''Super Mario Bros.'' Ground theme an arrangement of "Sister Marian," because when you listen to a couple of isolated out-of-context seconds of each, you'll find the partial melody (the same "C G E" notes) that the famous ''Super Mario Bros.'' Ground theme's main subject starts with. While "Sister Marian" is mentioned on the "Ground Theme" page on this site, I don't see it being referred to as an "arrangement."



:::::How about the "Underground" theme? Funny thing about this one is that one could make a far '''better''' case. They share the same subject, but the idea is developed in different ways. Nobody considers this to be an arrangement of "Let's Not Talk About It." Kondo's changes tonality by shifting down a fifth, adds an additional chromatic line that does not exist in "Let's Not Talk About It," and uses a mixed meter of 3/4 and 4/4. "Let's Not Talk About It" is written in a consistent 6/4 time signature (compound meter). Similarly, when I look at the ''Underground Theme'' page on this site, it doesn't refer to it as an "arrangement" at all. It reads: "The theme shares a similar melody with the instrumental "Let's Not Talk About It" from Lee Ritenour's second Friendship album, released in 1979."



:::::The term "arrangement" implies that the bulk of the source material of the composition is not original and is mostly intentionally borrowed from something else. We generally use this term when talking about, say, ''Super Mario 64'' arranging Bob-omb Battlefield into the Cool Cool Mountain and Slider themes… where all the different subject matter is preserved but reimagined in different styles/genres. We also use it when talking about, say, ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'', where they remade the ''Super Mario World'' Ghost House theme from the ground up but preserved every aspect of the original theme. That's not what's going on with the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Ghost House theme. Compared to the famous Underground theme, there's a far weaker case to be made here. The ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Ghost House theme borrows one background element from ''Super Mario World's'' Ghost House theme, but the rest of it is an entirely original. The melody is different, the harmony is different, and so is the rhythm… the three pillars that make music… music.



:::::Again, I take issue with this because it's a very weak standard, as it's way too broad and could apply to just about anything. For example, the "Water Land" world map theme from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and the "Fairy Fountain" theme from The Legend of Zelda series are both remarkably similar to one another. Both were composed by Kondo… but "Fairy Fountain" is most certainly '''not''' an arrangement of "Water Land." Kondo himself was asked about this in a 2001 interview, and he seemed completely unaware of the similarity, saying he hadn't noticed. He even remarked how he'd accidentally imitate himself without even realizing it, and would try really hard to avoid this. The point being, with such a low bar, there's no way to distinguish something like the ''Bob-omb Battlefield/Slider/Cool Cool Mountain'' example vs. the ''Sister Marian/SMB1 Ground Theme'' one, because the word "arrangement" is too ubiquitously used that it has now lost its meaning.



:::::I'm not saying the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Ghost House theme deserves no mention at all. Like I said, it is clearly trying to evoke the ''Super Mario World'' theme and it is certainly a much better example than GBA Boo Lake. My issue is the inappropriate use of the term "arrangement."
::::::- Mario54671

::::::*First, the term "arrangement" can refer to either an entire track (ex: ''"Cool, Cool Mountain" is an arrangement of the "Super Mario 64 Main Theme"'') or it can refer to a part of a track that is a new rendition of a previous theme (ex: ''"Level Complete" from The Super Mario Bros. Movie includes an arrangement of the Super Mario Bros. 2 "Ground Theme"''). This definition is consistent with my [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Clarify and expand coverage of recurring musical themes|proposal]] that passed earlier this month that governs how we deal with recurring theme articles, and this use of the term "arrangement" has been the standard on the wiki even years before this proposal was enacted. I think a discussion can be had about whether or not the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' ghost house theme includes an arrangement of "Obake Yashiki BGM" due to its rearrangement of the same notes, but the idea that a track cannot include an arrangement simply because it is only a part of the track is inconsistent with the currently governing proposal and years of precedent on the wiki.
::::::*Second, the situation with the "Ground Theme" and "Sister Marian," or the "Underground Theme" and "Let's Not Talk About It" is completely different than the cases we previously discussed because "Sister Marian" and "Let's Not Talk About It" are copyrighted pieces of music completely separate from ''Super Mario'', Nintendo, or video games as a whole. Nintendo would never be able to include an arrangement of a copyrighted piece of music in their video games; any similarities would have to be either coincidences or simply inspirations. This means that all ''Super Mario'' themes are not considered arrangements of preexisting copyrighted pieces ''by default''. What we're discussing is arrangements of themes ''within the greater Super Mario franchise'', which is a completely different animal.
::::::*Third, I was not aware of the 2001 interview with Koji Kondo. I went and read it myself, and you are correct, he confirms that they are not the same theme. Because we have ''explicit confirmation'' that these are not the same theme, I think that the "Fairy Fountain" theme should be removed from the "Map 3 World" article. [[User:ToxicOJ|ToxicOJ]] ([[User talk:ToxicOJ|talk]]) 23:59, November 24, 2023 (EST)
@@ Line 89: / Line 89: @@
 ::::::*Second, the situation with the "Ground Theme" and "Sister Marian," or the "Underground Theme" and "Let's Not Talk About It" is completely different than the cases we previously discussed because "Sister Marian" and "Let's Not Talk About It" are copyrighted pieces of music completely separate from ''Super Mario'', Nintendo, or video games as a whole. Nintendo would never be able to include an arrangement of a copyrighted piece of music in their video games; any similarities would have to be either coincidences or simply inspirations. This means that all ''Super Mario'' themes are not considered arrangements of preexisting copyrighted pieces ''by default''. What we're discussing is arrangements of themes ''within the greater Super Mario franchise'', which is a completely different animal.
 ::::::*Third, I was not aware of the 2001 interview with Koji Kondo. I went and read it myself, and you are correct, he confirms that they are not the same theme. Because we have ''explicit confirmation'' that these are not the same theme, I think that the "Fairy Fountain" theme should be removed from the "Map 3 World" article. [[User:ToxicOJ|ToxicOJ]] ([[User talk:ToxicOJ|talk]]) 23:59, November 24, 2023 (EST)
-::::::::I'm glad you pointed me to that particular page, so I'm at least aware of what the standards are here. I think we were talking past each other a bit, as I wasn't aware of the standard of something needing to appear in at least 8 different pieces of Mario-related media and whatnot. I wasn't particularly interested in whether or not "Obake Yashiki BGM" deserves its own page, I simply thought that the "Obake Yashiki BGM" theme had its own page on here because it's an iconic theme from Super Mario World. My issue was specifically with the liberal use of the word "arrangement."
-::::::::In fact, I don't actually agree with some of these definitions on the page you linked. If an arrangement can include "a part" of the music, how does that differ from "Appearance"? I think "appearance" is a more accurate term for, say, ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' with how fragments of themes from across the Mario series are incorporated. This is distinct from them being flat out "arrangements," because I don't consider a mere 2-3 second quote to be an "arrangement." It's a quote, or "appearance." Also, what does "a part" mean? Because if we're going to consider New Super Mario Bros. as a "reappearance" of the ''Super Mario World'' theme, then I think this definition is too vague considering how different it is.
-::::::::Personally, I find the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' theme's inclusion on that page a bit of a stretch, even under these standards. It isn't quite the same as, say, the Mario movie's inclusion of it, where all of the opening notes were kept intact exactly as is. In ''New Super Mario Bros.'', there's a deliberate effort to mix up the note pattern in the one part that '''is''' considered to be similar to ''Super Mario World''. That, and the fact that the rest of the music has completely different thematic material and '''isn't''' similar to ''Super Mario World'', to me, disqualifies it from being counted as a "reappearance." I think including the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' theme falls too much under "they sound similar, therefore they're the same." I don't think that's good enough; basically… it's too different.
-::::::::I personally don't like to outright declare anything as an "intentional reference" in such a factual manner when we're only dealing with fragments or a small cluster of notes that may or may not sound similar depending on the listener. I wouldn't have defaulted to "Water Land" and "Fairy Fountain" being "references" to one another, for example, unless Koji Kondo outright clarified that they were intended to be the same. Whether or not he'd clarified this in that 2001 interview wouldn't have changed my stance on this. Composers very often imitate themselves unintentionally, and this is not exclusive to Koji Kondo. John Williams does it, as do classical composers such as Ludwig van Beethoven. Because of this, I think it's better to assume that these kinds of similarities are unintentional unless otherwise stated by the composer.
-::::::::The reason why I'm picky about this is because there have been instances in the past (see the above exchange regarding the ''Super Mario Maker 2'' music), where people have used this site as a way of gathering trivial knowledge. ''Did You Know Gaming'', for example referenced MarioWiki for their ''Super Mario Maker 2'' video. Unfortunately, an earlier edit claimed that the ''Super Mario World'' Snow theme contained the ''Super Mario 64'' Cool Cool Mountain theme, among other inaccuracies. These have since been edited, but the ''DYKG'' video is still up. Like I said before, if Koji Kondo comes out and says this was an intentional reference, I'm perfectly okay with being wrong about this. But we're unlikely to get such a statement. Given the information we '''do''' have (the 2001 interview), I'd say it's highly unlikely. Therefore, it's safer to assume these things are unintentional.
-:::::::::-Mario54671
-::::::::::Sorry, I should have linked the proposal sooner so we could be on the same page. "Appearance" only refers to how inclusions of a theme are counted for the 8 pieces of media threshold, while "original version," remix," and arrangement" are the three classifications used to refer to the nature of the track itself.
-::::::::::After some reevaluation of the ''NSMB'' ghost house theme, you've changed my mind, and I agree with you that the beginning section is too different to be considered an arrangement of "Obake Yashiki BGM." I reach this conclusion for the sole reason that the notes, while the same, are in a totally different order, not because of the section's length or any other factors. If the beginning section had the notes in the same order as "Obake Yashiki BGM," all else being the same, I would still support its inclusion as an arrangement. I think this is a similar situation to the "[[Ending (Super Mario World)|Ending]]" theme from ''Super Mario World''. There is a theme in the ''Super Mario All-Stars'' version of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and in ''Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3'' that is extremely similar to the ''SMW'' "Ending" theme, but they were determined to be too different from "Ending" to be considered arrangements. Instead, they are now mentioned in the Trivia section of the article, which I think should be done with the ''NSMB'' ghost house theme in the "Obake Yashiki BGM" article. (Feel free to take a look at that article's revision history to see the exchange deciding this).
-::::::::::I completely agree with the desire to make sure that we avoid mistakes like with the ''SMM 2'' snow theme, which is why I'm glad you pointed out the differences between the ''SMK'' and ''NSMB'' themes with "Obake Yashiki BGM," and the 2001 interview confirming that "Fairy Fountain" is not an arrangement of "Map 3 World." However, I think it not feasible for us to assume that a theme is not an arrangement/does not contain an arrangement because we do not have explicit confirmation from the composer. Heck, there are several recurring themes that we don't even know who the exact composer is. Explicit confirmation of this nature is exceedingly rare. It really just comes down to deciding on a case-by-case basis if a gray-area track or a section of a track is similar enough to be considered an arrangement like we just did with the ''NSMB'' ghost house theme and like I did with other users for the ''SMW'' "Ending" theme. [[User:ToxicOJ|ToxicOJ]] ([[User talk:ToxicOJ|talk]]) 21:37, November 25, 2023 (EST)