User:DrBaskerville/sandbox
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 Important Notice |
Remove Zelda-exclusive pages (revised)
This is a redux of this proposal, which was too bulky. Thank you to those of you who brought constructive criticisms to the previous proposal to help advise me on how to best approach this idea. Whether or not you agree with the aim of the proposal, hopefully it is a more coherent and better-researched proposal now. I know some of the comments were concerned with the proposal being too sweeping, but I’d still prefer to first try and get this larger proposal passed before breaking it down into smaller parts, which I’ll do if this proposal fails.
There are several pages in Category:The_Legend_of_Zelda_series that I believe should be deleted from the wiki. There are many pages in the category that should clearly remain on the wiki, like Ancient Tires, Hyrule Castle and Deku Baba, which appear in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe; 8-Bit Hero, a microgame in WarioWare: Touched!; Recorder, an item that has appeared in both series; or Link and Master Sword, which have appeared in multiple Mario games. Then there are pages that have no connection to the Mario series at all.
Pages that would be removed:
- Bombite - no connection to Mario series whatsoever other than looking like Bob-ombs
- Head Thwomp - never appeared in a Mario game but is related to Thwomp
- Mega Thwomp - same as above
- Spiked Thwomp - same as above
- Stone Elevator - same as above
- Yoshi doll - just a reference to Yoshi in Link’s Awakening
We have the List of references in Nintendo video games to cover topics such as these. I fail to see why they need their own pages. Even some of the links for these articles on the references page link to their equivalent articles on Zelda Wiki, our NIWA affiliate, because contributors on our own wiki likely assume we don't have pages for Zelda-exclusive content. For example, why is Stone Elevator covered as a separate page but we don’t have a page for Gulliver, who references Toad Town and the Overthere in Animal Crossing, giving Gulliver, who has apparently visited places in the Mario series, a more direct connection than Stone Elevator, which just shares visual similarities to Thwomps? To be clear, I don’t think we should have a page for Gulliver for the reason that he does not appear in a Mario series game. Perhaps a more potent example is Togezo from Kirby’s Adventure, which is clearly a Kirbified version of a Spiny and even shares the same Japanese name. Why is there a page for Manhandla from Zelda, a variant of Piranha Plant, but not Togezo? There just doesn’t seem to be consistency.
Furthermore, pages like Keese only cover the enemies’ appearance in Mario games, whereas Manhandla covers the extensive history of Mandhala throughout the Zelda series. Again, notably, Manhandla doesn’t have any appearances in Mario games, so I suppose it has to cover everything it does in Zelda since otherwise the page would be blank.
If Yoshi doll exists as an independent page, then shouldn’t every Animal Crossing furniture series and clothing from the Animal Crossing series like the Big Bro's Hat that references the Mario series also be given its own page? I just fail to see the difference.
Perhaps the worst offender is Bombite, which has no confirmed connection to the Mario series whatsoever. Per the page, “They appear to be based on Bob-ombs.” That alone is sufficient to be given a page on the wiki?
To be fair, there is developer commentary about some of the Mario-inspired features in Zelda games affirming they were, indeed, inspired by Mario equivalents (not including Bombite), but is our threshold going to become developer confirmation for significance enough to the Mario series to have an independent page? I'm sure that similar commentary could be found for much listed on List of references in Nintendo video games. If that's our threshold, then shouldn't we create pages for everything confirmed to be inspired by anything to do with the Mario series? That would be a tidal wave of new pages. If not, why is Link's Awakening being treated differently from everything else? This proposal from 2022 permits the creation of non-Mario series pages, but these particular pages seem to take too much liberty with that ability.
Coverage policy
MarioWiki:Coverage defines "cameo" as "a Super Mario character or some other aspect of the Super Mario franchise makes a minor appearance in a non-Super Mario game". This is getting into semantics, but if the subject, for example's sake Manhandla, doesn't even originate in the Mario series, can it even be considered a "cameo"? It's not a cameo of a Piranha Plant; it's an homage to something from the Mario series, not a cameo from a Mario character or a guest appearance, defined as "if they have a role in the plot or are featured as a playable character". The coverage page even references the Thwomp relations specifically, saying "For example, the Thwomp article has a section about the Thwomps' appearances in The Legend of Zelda series, but the material included in this section only pertains to Thwomps and does not talk about unrelated Zelda material, and the Zelda games that Thwomps appear in are not given articles." This suggests to me that information about the Thwomp relations should be confined to the Thwomp page, not exist as independent pages. Even should the coverage page not suggest what I understand it to suggest, I believe the policy should be reevaluated to make clear that subjects that originate outside of the Mario series but are inspired by the Mario series do not constitute cameos / guest appearances.
Presently, information about most of the highlighted pages exists:
- On their independent pages, e.g. Yoshi doll
- On The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
- On related pages, e.g. Thwomp for the Thwomp relations
- On List of references in Nintendo video games
Each of these pages basically has the same information on it, that the subjects of the highlighted pages are inspired by content from the Mario series. Even if we removed the independent pages, the content would still be thoroughly covered on the wiki, in places readers are more likely to search for them anyway. I think it would be odd for someone to come to Mario Wiki to look up battle tactics for Manhandla. I think one could even formulate an argument about it violating the MarioWiki:Once and only once policy given how minor they are.
Implementation
- The highlighted pages would be removed, but information about them would still appear on The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, List of references in Nintendo video games, and related pages (like Thwomp).
- A byproduct of implementing this proposal is that we solve the disproportional coverage for something like Manhandla when compared to Keese.
Subsequent debate
Following a decision on this proposal, there are some more questions that I think are best answered in their own, focused discussions. I am listing them here, but I'd ask that we please avoid debating the particulars of these changes in this proposal's comments, saving them instead for their own proposals, except in cases wherein they can be related directly to this proposal.
- I believe we should discuss having the Thwomp relations listed as variants on Thwomp in addition to referencing them in Thwomp#The_Legend_of_Zelda_series. If someone wants to incorporate more information onto that page about their Zelda appearances, I see no reason why that wouldn't be okay, but I'm not sure about listing species from a different franchise as a variant of a Mario species.
- Whether Stone Elevator should even be considered a variant of Thwomp.
- The reference to Bombite should likely be rewritten on Bob-omb#The_Legend_of_Zelda_series to be something along the lines of, "Bombite, a similar enemy to the Bob-ombs in Four Swords and The Minish Cap, appear in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening. Though they closely resemble Bob-ombs, they are not confirmed to be the same species."
- ^ Their current reference reads, "In The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, Bob-ombs have a relative named Bombites, which exhibit different behavior." Whereas Bob-ombs appear in Four Swords and The Minish Cap, even Zelda Wiki doesn't consider Bombites confirmed to be Bob-ombs, which means we are being even more generous in designation them as such than the NIWA wiki that covers the series in which they appeared.
Proposer: DrBaskerville (talk)
Deadline: July 08, 2024, 23:59 GMT
Support
- DrBaskerville (talk) Per proposal.
Oppose
Comments
It's possible that there are other pages exclusively related to other series on the wiki as well outside of the Zelda pages that I've highlighted. Their exclusion from this proposal is not due to me believing they should remain but instead being ignorant of their existence. If similar pages exist from other franchises, please feel free to note them in reply to this comment and, if this proposal passes, I'll explore deletion proposals for them as well depending on the strength of their relationship to the Mario series. 
Dr. Baskerville 
17:37, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
