Talk:Noshi

Should we call it Noshi?

While the policy prompts us to use the Hepburn Romanization for Japanese names, the Japanese name of this dinosaur is a clear reference to the name of Yoshi, much like the Japanese name of Dorrie and the Japanese name of Plessie. As such I think it would make more sense to name it Noshi, this way it would also be easier to refer to through links in this wiki. What name should we use?--Mister Wu (talk) 21:00, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

I'd support moving it to Noshi. Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 21:02, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

Although it is an unofficial translation, I'd prefer moving it to Noshi. --DeepFriedCabbage 21:29, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

That wouldn't be a translation, as we'd still be using the official Japanese name, but rather a romanization using the same rules that Nintendo used to officially romanize 「ヨッシー」 as YoshiMedia:NAP-05 Clubs Jack.png, so essentially a romanization according to nonstandard rules based on the romanization done by Nintendo (is that actually a more modern romanization, by the way?).--Mister Wu (talk) 21:40, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

Though I would support it, I'd say it needs a bit more discussion first. ^(T|C) 23:51, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

That'd require checking the internal filenames. -- FanOfYoshi 07:45, July 19, 2019 (EDT)

The best sources for filenames would be Mario Kart 7 and especially Mario Kart Tour, but I have no access to either.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:56, July 19, 2019 (EDT)

I agree with FanOfYoshi - let's first see if we can gather its internal name, and go from there. Note that Dorrie's Japanese name has been rendered anything from Dossy to Doshi, showing that Nintendo's romanization rules can change at any given moment, so I prefer we not make another exception to policy until then. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:19, July 19, 2019 (EDT)

Dossy is actually the old romanization taught in Japanese schools, used also for Yoshi in the SNES era (e.g. Yossy IslandMedia:YossyIsland JP cover.jpg), indeed in Super Mario Odyssey Dossy was replaced with the current romanization rules from Nintendo (Doshi) that better reflect Western pronounciation, as that good article from Mandelin shows.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:58, July 19, 2019 (EDT)

Even now, we still get romanization inconsistencies such as Heiho/Heyho, Kameck/Kamek, WooGan/Ugan, etc. Plus, there are always exceptions, as the modern "Yoshi" was also used in 1993's Mario & Wario for Super Famicom, which predates Yossy Island. So it's rather how each developer was taught, not that Nintendo of Japan as a whole adheres to a certain set of rules. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:30, July 19, 2019 (EDT)

I checked Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, and multiple files within root/Course/Diddy.arc/diddy/object refer to it as Nossie (e.g. nossie.bmd); note that the game apparently considers Dino Dino Jungle to be Diddy Kong's course. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:14, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

Until we find more recent sources (e.g. internal name in Mario Kart 7, Mario Kart Tour) I'm fine with using Nossie as go-to romanization, using the internal name as source. It can be easily searched with Western keyboards, unlike the current name. If nobody is against the change, I'd change the page and character name to Nossie, citing both the current sources as well as the internal filename.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:49, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

I can access Mario Kart 7, and it seems that it's just generically referred to as a "dinosaur" (0000.00000000/romfs/Course/Ggc_DinoDinoJungle.szs/dinosaur/dinosaur.bcmdl) including its texture file, which just leaves Mario Kart Tour and Mario Party 8. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:38, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

I moved the page to Nossie, the internal name that was found. Since the source is old (the file names of Mario Kart: Double Dash!!), this name might be updated if we find a more recent internal name with a different romanization. While I removed the talk template, this discussion can still go on, if questions need to be answered or if new information is found.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:24, August 31, 2019 (EDT)

Well, thanks to SwampyGator (talk), we now have the internal name of Nossie in Mario Kart Tour: Noshi! This reflects how Dorrie was recently romanized in Super Mario Odyssey, and is actually interesting to read considering how the Mario Kart 7 model had just the dinosaur generic name. Apparently, the focus on this species that is evident in Mario Kart Tour led to a new model as well as the rediscovery of its name and the usual update to its romanization to better reflect the current practices of Nintendo (as well as how the names of these "saurs" are based on the name of Yoshi).

At this point we can directly update the name or wait until an English source (either game text or the Twitter account) specifically names this species. While I'm a bit for the first option to avoid cases in which we become the source of the North American name (and thus provide an "outdated" name!), the second option can be sensible to avoid a possible double move, considering how the continuous presence of Nossies/Noshis in Mario Kart Tour might led to their name finally being mentioned in an English source (and in case you were thinking at this Tweet, it actually reflected the corresponding Japanese Tweet that used the generic term 「恐竜」, dinosaur, in place of the species name). What do you think?--Mister Wu (talk) 19:31, October 24, 2019 (EDT)

Since it apparently didn't require a lot of work, I updated the name, with the rationale of using the old romanization up until Mario Kart Tour, where the new one was found, mirroring what we usually do with the proper English names. Needless to say, if an actual English name is revealed, it will be possible to replace all names used in this page with said English name, not just the part of Mario Kart Tour.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:22, October 26, 2019 (EDT)

The reddish one

Shouldn't we make note of the reddish-colored one that's moving around in the lake in the original? I figured it was a reference to the old misconception that Brontosaurus couldn't sustain its own weight on land and as such needed to stay in water. The current Dino Dino Jungle article seems to think it's a plesiosaur, if I'm reading it correctly. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:06, July 20, 2019 (EDT)

I checked and there's a yellow one as well, their appearance clearly tells us they are using the same model of Nosshī, with almost identical textures that are changed just in the main hue (blue, red or yellow). The guide doesn't mention them, specifically referring to Nosshī as the blue dinosaur and looking at footage from Mario Kart 7 they are not in the GCN Dino Dino Jungle of that game. With the little information we have and with the tendency of sparing space on the GameCube games due to the limited capacity of the discs, we can't go much more in depth to see if they were intended to be plesiosaurs adopting the smart trick of submerged identical models, hopefully soemone will be able to access the internal filenames to see if the Nosshī term is used to refer to the species of the three dinosaurs or if it used specifically for the blue one. For now I'll just mention them in the section about Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, the only game in which they appear.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:23, July 20, 2019 (EDT)

Within the root/Course/Diddy.arc/diddy/object/swimnossie.bmd file, there are textures for a purplish color (nossie_lake.1), light blue (nossie_lake.2), yellowish (nossie_lake.3), and reddish (nossie_lake.4) - so it's safe to say they're a type of Nossie. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:14, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

This leads us to consider them as a species named Nosshī/Nossie, thanks for checking.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:52, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

Sorry if I ask, but as an additional check, the one used as obstacle uses the swimnossie.bmd model with the nossie_lake.2 textures or it uses a different model?--Mister Wu (talk) 10:02, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

No, the main one is using the legged nossie.bmd model, making the first two swimnossie.bmd textures unused; nossie.bmd instead uses nossie_all, which includes more body features and has a different shade. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:38, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

Thanks again, I had little doubt that they were intended as a species after your first discovery, and this naming clearly tells us that this is the case, this also means that the first two textures can be added to the list of pre-release and unused content, if a render of them can be obtained.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:29, August 31, 2019 (EDT)