| Latest revision |
Your text |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| {{FATALK}}
| |
| Metal Mario is an enemy in [[Dr. Mario 64]], at least that's what it says in the article. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''aper '''Jorge'''</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Paper Jorge|Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.]]<tt>·</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Paper Jorge|Contributions]]<tt>·</tt></small>) 20:03, 11 October 2006 (EDT) | | Metal Mario is an enemy in [[Dr. Mario 64]], at least that's what it says in the article. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''aper '''Jorge'''</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Paper Jorge|Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.]]<tt>·</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Paper Jorge|Contributions]]<tt>·</tt></small>) 20:03, 11 October 2006 (EDT) |
|
| |
|
| Line 13: |
Line 12: |
|
| |
|
| ==Split into "Metal Mario" into two articles== | | ==Split into "Metal Mario" into two articles== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|6-1|split}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|6-1|split}} |
| This article currently covers two subjects. While related, they are distinct enough to merit individual articles and should therefore be split. These two subjects are the metal form resulting from power-ups, and the character of Metal Mario introduced in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series and seen in other media since. The inclusion of the two on the same article is misleading, and may confuse readers into thinking the Metal Mario character is playable in games that he is not. | | This article currently covers two subjects. While related, they are distinct enough to merit individual articles and should therefore be split. These two subjects are the metal form resulting from power-ups, and the character of Metal Mario introduced in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series and seen in other media since. The inclusion of the two on the same article is misleading, and may confuse readers into thinking the Metal Mario character is playable in games that he is not. |
|
| |
|
| Line 24: |
Line 23: |
| ===Split into separate "Metal Mario (form)" and "Metal Mario (character)" articles=== | | ===Split into separate "Metal Mario (form)" and "Metal Mario (character)" articles=== |
| #{{User|Redstar}} - Per proposal. | | #{{User|Redstar}} - Per proposal. |
| #{{User|Edofenrir}} - Makes sense. In addition it would be better to merge [[Metal Mario|Metal Wario]] with Metal Form, instead of Metal Mario (provided the Proposal on [[Talk:Metal Wario]] passes, of course). | | #{{User|Edofenrir}} - Makes sense. In addition it would be better to merge [[Metal Wario]] with Metal Form, instead of Metal Mario (provided the Proposal on [[Talk:Metal Wario]] passes, of course). |
| #{{User|MATEOELBACAN}} - Per All, I think that the two articles must be separated and have information of their respective games (Ex: Anyone can be Metal in SSBB <.<) | | #{{User|MATEOELBACAN}} - Per All, I think that the two articles must be separated and have information of their respective games (Ex: Anyone can be Metal in SSBB <.<) |
| #{{User|Reversinator}} Per Redstar. | | #{{User|Reversinator}} Per Redstar. |
| Line 64: |
Line 63: |
|
| |
|
| == Should we re-merge these? == | | == Should we re-merge these? == |
| | |
| | {{talk}} |
| Since these were split, we have seen [[Tanooki Mario]], [[Cat Mario|Cat Peach]], [[Gold Mario]], and MANY more in MKT appear as "distinct" from their non-powerup form. Ergo, keeping these split seems silly now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:05, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | | Since these were split, we have seen [[Tanooki Mario]], [[Cat Mario|Cat Peach]], [[Gold Mario]], and MANY more in MKT appear as "distinct" from their non-powerup form. Ergo, keeping these split seems silly now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:05, April 5, 2020 (EDT) |
| :Metal Mario's a special case, though, since he has the history to back up his appearances, like his appearance in the Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Dr. Mario 64, and Smash Bros. Honestly, if the aforementioned characters also started appearing regularly as their own thing in more than one game, then perhaps we could argue that but as of now, I think it's fine leaving it the way as it is. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:08, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | | :Metal Mario's a special case, though, since he has the history to back up his appearances, like his appearance in the Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Dr. Mario 64, and Smash Bros. Honestly, if the aforementioned characters also started appearing regularly as their own thing in more than one game, then perhaps we could argue that but as of now, I think it's fine leaving it the way as it is. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:08, April 5, 2020 (EDT) |
| Line 98: |
Line 99: |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::By virtue of describing the SM64 form and SSB boss in the same blurb (note how the game they list in the bottom thingy is SM64), the SSBM trophy confirms them the same. As for the ''outside of game'' MK7 description, again, ''iterations'' of the same idea can take multiple forms, but that does not make them a different ''concept'' or ''entity''. Metal Mario ''can'' be a character or a form, but the point is '''''Nintendo themselves considers them the same thing in either case'''''. As such, so should we, lest we be in open defiance on the official take on the matter. There is no line between character and form in this case. Rather, it's a gradient. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:24, May 7, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::By virtue of describing the SM64 form and SSB boss in the same blurb (note how the game they list in the bottom thingy is SM64), the SSBM trophy confirms them the same. As for the ''outside of game'' MK7 description, again, ''iterations'' of the same idea can take multiple forms, but that does not make them a different ''concept'' or ''entity''. Metal Mario ''can'' be a character or a form, but the point is '''''Nintendo themselves considers them the same thing in either case'''''. As such, so should we, lest we be in open defiance on the official take on the matter. There is no line between character and form in this case. Rather, it's a gradient. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:24, May 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I still agree with everyone else that they are both separate and a power-up. This reminds me the opposite way where Nintendo said that King K. Rool's trophy states that Kaptain K. Rool is actually King K. Rool's brother. However, this is regarded as either a mistake by Nintendo, or a tongue-in-cheek joke in the vein of the Mr. L reference in Paper Luigi's trophy. So I find it a bit hard to believe it on Metal Mario's trophy and it could be like that for Metal Mario's spirit too, especially it's just a PNG image they just randomly chosen likely, especially one time Nintendo took a fan sprite image of the Mask Man based from ''Mother 3'' [https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(EarthBound_series)#Trivia] when they had all the resources kept in their archives. The Poison Mushroom is another mistakable example too, it says that it debuts in ''Super Mario All-Stars'' in the western releases of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'', despite ''Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels'' being re-released, the base game but updated for the west, western wise that is true but it's true debut is ''Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels'' and even other Japanese only-game trophies list their actual games in the western release including the Bucket from ''Mario & Wario'' and the Monster from ''3D Hot Rally'' and saying Japan-only. It's pretty inconsistent as it is, so it's not entirely accurate to use as the perfect source despite being official games by Nintendo, so until then there needs to be better sources to prove that Metal Mario is really just simply a form and it's too debatable, so until there is full confirmation, they should remain split. Also Metal Mario's series logo in Super Smash Bros for the Nintendo 64 is metallic and that is "only" unique to him. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 02:13, May 7, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I still agree with everyone else that they are both separate and a power-up. This reminds me the opposite way where Nintendo said that King K. Rool's trophy states that Kaptain K. Rool is actually King K. Rool's brother. However, this is regarded as either a mistake by Nintendo, or a tongue-in-cheek joke in the vein of the Mr. L reference in Paper Luigi's trophy. So I find it a bit hard to believe it on Metal Mario's trophy and it could be like that for Metal Mario's spirit too, especially it's just a PNG image they just randomly chosen likely, especially one time Nintendo took a fan sprite image of the Mask Man based from ''Mother 3'' [https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(EarthBound_series)#Trivia] when they had all the resources kept in their archives. The Poison Mushroom is another mistakable example too, it says that it debuts in ''Super Mario All-Stars'' in the western releases of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'', despite ''Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels'' being re-released, the base game but updated for the west, western wise that is true but it's true debut is ''Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels'' and even other Japanese only-game trophies list their actual games in the western release including the Bucket from ''Mario & Wario'' and the Monster from ''3D Hot Rally'' and saying Japan-only. It's pretty inconsistent as it is, so it's not entirely accurate to use as the perfect source despite being official games by Nintendo, so until then there needs to be better sources to prove that Metal Mario is really just simply a form and it's too debatable, so until there is full confirmation, they should remain split. Also Metal Mario's series logo in Super Smash Bros for the Nintendo 64 is metallic and that is "only" unique to him. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 02:13, May 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Why are you acting like I'm the only one who wants to merge? Metalex said he wanted to. Also, your proof here amounts to a big "what if." While ''Melee'' trophies have some mistakes, claiming one for a ''made-up distinction'' is not. Also, what does the texture of an icon in a game filled to the brim with early installment weirdness have to do with anything? For that matter, the fact that [[Meta Crystal]] is so blatantly inspired by the same mishmash of location traits of {{file link|Metal Mario Scene Artwork - Super Mario 64.png|this}} SM64 artwork makes splitting them further ludicrous. Their design histories would be inseparably entwined if it weren't for the fact that ''they're the same thing anyways.'' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:27, May 7, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Why are you acting like I'm the only one who wants to merge? Metalex said he wanted to. Also, your proof here amounts to a big "what if." While ''Melee'' trophies have some mistakes, claiming one for a ''made-up distinction'' is not. Also, what does the texture of an icon in a game filled to the brim with early installment weirdness have to do with anything? For that matter, the fact that [[Meta Crystal]] is so blatantly inspired by the same mishmash of location traits of {{media link|Metal Mario Scene Artwork - Super Mario 64.png|this}} SM64 artwork makes splitting them further ludicrous. Their design histories would be inseparably entwined if it weren't for the fact that ''they're the same thing anyways.'' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:27, May 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::That's just you two only agreeing and why are you so obsessed with wanting to merge so many articles just because it isn't in your way? Still the trophies and spirits will have mistakes and inaccurate information which doesn't give enough proof regardless if it's right or wrong even if they are pretty good, it's not the best reliable source to use only. I just said, because Nintendo can just simply be using some PNG images found from the internet and that Masked Swordsman fan image can be found online giving evidence that they indeed do take artwork from images online and they I quote "could" just simply chose that Metal Mario because it's a Metal Mario image. I can see where you are coming from with the Meta Crystal stage, but that can be argued that Yoshi himself owns the Yoshi's Island stage in the ''Smash'' games despite Yoshi himself not being that "green" Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 02:47, May 7, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::That's just you two only agreeing and why are you so obsessed with wanting to merge so many articles just because it isn't in your way? Still the trophies and spirits will have mistakes and inaccurate information which doesn't give enough proof regardless if it's right or wrong even if they are pretty good, it's not the best reliable source to use only. I just said, because Nintendo can just simply be using some PNG images found from the internet and that Masked Swordsman fan image can be found online giving evidence that they indeed do take artwork from images online and they I quote "could" just simply chose that Metal Mario because it's a Metal Mario image. I can see where you are coming from with the Meta Crystal stage, but that can be argued that Yoshi himself owns the Yoshi's Island stage in the ''Smash'' games despite Yoshi himself not being that "green" Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 02:47, May 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::(restarting indent) What? Yoshi ''is'' the green Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. As stated on his page, any Yoshi may be called "Yoshi" as a character, but it doesn't necessarily make them the same. This is straight from Nintendo's mouth. As for Yoshi's Story, the manual refers to them ''all'' as "Yoshi" as in a name. As for Metal Mario here, there hasn't been a ''single'' profile that has said anything remotely close to "don't mistake him for Mario with the Metal Cap." You know why that is? Because it's a distinction made-up by fans. Nintendo doesn't acknowledge it because it never existed in the first place. Regardless, acting like subjects can only have one role in gameplay each is very bad for the wiki in such a loose franchise as this. Remember the Miyamoto quote where he likened the cast to a group of actors who had variable roles like in an old ''Popeye'' cartoon? Same principle. Metal Mario, like the rest, can be a form or a character whenever Nintendo decides to, and they don't see it as a different entity at all. Also, please get off your high horse regarding agreement, only like two other people spoke in favor of keeping merged and neither of them have said a thing since the ''Smash'' profiles detail was brought up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:45, May 7, 2020 (EDT) | | :::(restarting indent) What? Yoshi ''is'' the green Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. As stated on his page, any Yoshi may be called "Yoshi" as a character, but it doesn't necessarily make them the same. This is straight from Nintendo's mouth. As for Yoshi's Story, the manual refers to them ''all'' as "Yoshi" as in a name. As for Metal Mario here, there hasn't been a ''single'' profile that has said anything remotely close to "don't mistake him for Mario with the Metal Cap." You know why that is? Because it's a distinction made-up by fans. Nintendo doesn't acknowledge it because it never existed in the first place. Regardless, acting like subjects can only have one role in gameplay each is very bad for the wiki in such a loose franchise as this. Remember the Miyamoto quote where he likened the cast to a group of actors who had variable roles like in an old ''Popeye'' cartoon? Same principle. Metal Mario, like the rest, can be a form or a character whenever Nintendo decides to, and they don't see it as a different entity at all. Also, please get off your high horse regarding agreement, only like two other people spoke in favor of keeping merged and neither of them have said a thing since the ''Smash'' profiles detail was brought up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:45, May 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| Line 146: |
Line 147: |
| :::::::LinkTheLefty, only the Prima guides for Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Mario Kart Wii state that Daisy is Peach's cousin and they make these kind of mistakes, Nintendo including the official sites never said any of that kind of info as far as I know. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 01:49, May 10, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::LinkTheLefty, only the Prima guides for Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Mario Kart Wii state that Daisy is Peach's cousin and they make these kind of mistakes, Nintendo including the official sites never said any of that kind of info as far as I know. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 01:49, May 10, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::::Nintendo of America's official site for Mario Kart Wii listed Nimbus Land as Birdo's home, even though she is removed once Valentina is (and Nintendo allegedly not being allowed to use SMRPG things) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:57, May 10, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::::Nintendo of America's official site for Mario Kart Wii listed Nimbus Land as Birdo's home, even though she is removed once Valentina is (and Nintendo allegedly not being allowed to use SMRPG things) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:57, May 10, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::::I don't think it should be lost on anyone here calling Metal Mario a rival was a one-time, one-region instance that just so happened to occur after the wiki split the article between form and character. This isn't even language-specific since Nintendo of Europe was, at least at the time, making some of their own English translations independent of Nintendo of America that were generally closer to Nintendo of Japan (e.g. [[Koopalings|Bowser's Minions]]), and indeed, the version without the mention of a rivalry is applicable to most of the world. In a way, it's almost like how the [[Talk:Parabuzzy|Parabuzzy]] [[Talk:Para-Beetle|situation]] was literally the English localization versus the rest of the world, except in this case there already exists an [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/games/oms/mariokart7/en_GB/characters.html alternate translation] that is both closer to the [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/amkj/character/index.html Japanese text] and still available (note the North American ''Mario Kart 7'' website was [http://mariokart7.nintendo.com/characters/ revamped] and the older version with the rivalry statement is only partially viewable with an [https://web.archive.org/web/20111125055046/http://mariokart7.nintendo.com/characters/ archive]). I'll posit further that the [[#Split into .22Metal Mario.22 into two articles|above proposal]], especially with the Metal Mario article in its [[Special:Diff/709517|state]] at the time, would most certainly not have passed today - the only examples of Metal Mario apparently as a character were two ''Super Smash Bros.'' series appearances, of which was a significant factor in the split but overall coverage later started to be [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/51#Smash Bros. Articles: What Stays and What Goes.3F|limited]], ''Mario Golf'' for N64, which is a spinoff where anything goes as playable, and ''Dr. Mario 64'', which is simply mistaken since the [[Special:Diff/709982|initial]] [[Special:Diff/709984|split]] was not aware that Metal Mario appeared as a form of Dr. Mario within the context of the game's story (and claiming it's both as is currently the case is pushing [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|once and only once]]). Lastly (and this is just my personal experience), I've always found the negativity against certain oddities within older Prima Games guides to be overblown when [[Super Mario Sunshine|there]] [[Wario World|are]] [[Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3|many]] [[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga|times]] I find them to be more useful than a Nintendo Power equivalent. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:11, May 10, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::::I don't think it should be lost on anyone here calling Metal Mario a rival was a one-time, one-region instance that just so happened to occur after the wiki split the article between form and character. This isn't even language-specific since Nintendo of Europe was, at least at the time, making some of their own English translations independent of Nintendo of America that were generally closer to Nintendo of Japan (e.g. [[Koopalings|Bowser's Minions]]), and indeed, the version without the mention of a rivalry is applicable to most of the world. In a way, it's almost like how the [[Talk:Parabuzzy|Parabuzzy]] [[Talk:Para-Beetle|situation]] was literally the English localization versus the rest of the world, except in this case there already exists an [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/games/oms/mariokart7/en_GB/characters.html alternate translation] that is both closer to the [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/amkj/character/index.html Japanese text] and still available (note the North American ''Mario Kart 7'' website was [http://mariokart7.nintendo.com/characters/ revamped] and the older version with the rivalry statement is only partially viewable with an [https://web.archive.org/web/20111125055046/http://mariokart7.nintendo.com/characters/ archive]). I'll posit further that the [[#Split into .22Metal Mario.22 into two articles|above proposal]], especially with the Metal Mario article in its [[Special:Diff/709517|state]] at the time, would most certainly not have passed today - the only examples of Metal Mario apparently as a character were two ''Super Smash Bros.'' series appearances, of which was a significant factor in the split but overall coverage later started to be [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 51#Smash Bros. Articles: What Stays and What Goes.3F|limited]], ''Mario Golf'' for N64, which is a spinoff where anything goes as playable, and ''Dr. Mario 64'', which is simply mistaken since the [[Special:Diff/709982|initial]] [[Special:Diff/709984|split]] was not aware that Metal Mario appeared as a form of Dr. Mario within the context of the game's story (and claiming it's both as is currently the case is pushing [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|once and only once]]). Lastly (and this is just my personal experience), I've always found the negativity against certain oddities within older Prima Games guides to be overblown when [[Super Mario Sunshine|there]] [[Wario World|are]] [[Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3|many]] [[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga|times]] I find them to be more useful than a Nintendo Power equivalent. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:11, May 10, 2020 (EDT) |
|
| |
|
| == Merge the Metals == | | == Merge the Metals == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|10-2-7-12|keep split}}
| | {{TPP}} |
| This split is based on little more than speculation. The ''Melee'' trophy describes both variably, the ''Ultimate'' spirit uses the "character" artwork in the context of the form, and even the original Meta Crystal had enough visual cues to Hazy Maze Cave to be just coming short of hitting you over the head with "this is that cool Metal Mario from SM64." The source for him being Mario's "rival" is from a since-replaced bio on one region's site, and as such is a supplemental assumption comparable to PRIMA claiming Daisy is Peach's cousin. Additionally, in Dr Mario 64, Mario turns into Metal Mario in Wario's story, but the two can separately battle in a different mode (and I don't see a "Vampire Wario (character)" article to balance that). On that note, Tanooki Mario and Gold Mario have since become recurring characters separately playable from normal Mario, yet they don't get a split. Additionally, Tanooki Mario also gets soundbytes separate from normal Mario, so Metal Mario's occasional distorted sentence-mixing is also not that special (particularly given some games have him mute or simply making "clang" noises). Another note is [[Dry Bowser]]; he can be both Bowser himself with the skin melted off and simply "a family friend," yet only gets one article, and very distinctly altered soundbytes, like MK7-onward Metal Mario. | | This split is based on little more than speculation. The ''Melee'' trophy describes both variably, the ''Ultimate'' spirit uses the "character" artwork in the context of the form, and even the original Meta Crystal had enough visual cues to Hazy Maze Cave to be just coming short of hitting you over the head with "this is that cool Metal Mario from SM64." The source for him being Mario's "rival" is from a since-replaced bio on one region's site, and as such is a supplemental assumption comparable to PRIMA claiming Daisy is Peach's cousin. Additionally, in Dr Mario 64, Mario turns into Metal Mario in Wario's story, but the two can separately battle in a different mode (and I don't see a "Vampire Wario (character)" article to balance that). On that note, Tanooki Mario and Gold Mario have since become recurring characters separately playable from normal Mario, yet they don't get a split. Additionally, Tanooki Mario also gets soundbytes separate from normal Mario, so Metal Mario's occasional distorted sentence-mixing is also not that special (particularly given some games have him mute or simply making "clang" noises). Another note is [[Dry Bowser]]; he can be both Bowser himself with the skin melted off and simply "a family friend," yet only gets one article, and very distinctly altered soundbytes, like MK7-onward Metal Mario. |
|
| |
|
| Line 161: |
Line 162: |
| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head... (per proposal, primary option) | | #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head... (per proposal, primary option) |
| #{{User|Duckfan77}} Per proposal. | | #{{User|Duckfan77}} Per proposal. |
| #{{User|Metalex123}} Per proposal. If we were to let these stay unmerged, then we should also get articles for "Cat Peach (character)", "Tanooki Mario (character)", "Fire Mario (character)", "Ice Mario (character)", "Gold Mario (character)", etc, and that's not counting the mess of "characters" from Mario Kart Tour... Also even recent games don't consider these separate characters, so it doesn't make sense to keep them separate. I hope the merge happens...
| |
| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per second option, but additionally, Metal Luigi really has absolutely no business being a separate article. This isn't only due to merging [[Talk:Metal Wario|Metal Wario]], but also because of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/51#Make an exception for the Super Smash Bros. series in our coverage policy|wiki]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/51#Smash Bros. Articles: What Stays and What Goes.3F|measures]] to limit ''Super Smash Bros.''-specific coverage. Keep in mind that [[Talk:Giant Donkey Kong|Giant Donkey Kong]] is currently merged with Donkey Kong, and that has better reasons to be separate because Donkey Kong has an existing giant form within the ''Mario'' franchise. If that's the case, then there's no reason why a ''Smash''-only derivative of Metal Mario should still have its own article. Also, Metal Luigi is basically just Luigi with Metal Box activated, sans time limit. If that makes Metal Luigi his own character, then so are the one-on-one "Mega" racers in ''Mario Kart Tour'', and I don't think we want to go there.
| |
| #{{User|Glowsquid}} - I think going w/ concept over role as mentioned in the comments is the way to go. I really don't see a voice clip filter as a compelling evidence against either.
| |
| #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per full merge. The only solid evidence we have for ''anything'' regarding this proposal is the SSBM trophy which says nothing about forms and characters, there's only text about Mario in metal and listed appearances and that's that. The MK7 bio also means nothing because the word "rival" can be applied to any character in any possible context, like Daisy may "outshine her rivals" in Mario Party 9 (which includes generic baddies like Koopa Troopa) or the Koopalings in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiF-OdgL0jk Jp version of their reveal trailer for Mario Kart 8] being called Mario and friends' rivals by the late Iwata (which in the context of all playables revealed prior to that includes the baby characters).
| |
| #{{User|Mysterii}} Per full merge. Metal Mario only exists to act as a powered up version of Mario, same with Metal Luigi, Metal Wario, Metal Bowser, and Giant DK.
| |
| #{{User|PhGuy12}} As for the voice, this seems more like a modernization of Metal Mario than an evidence that he is his own character. Mario had his voice changed in other forms before (Mini in ''NSMB'', Mega in ''Mario Kart Wii'' and ''3D World'', Small in ''3D Land / World''). Peachette's voice is identical to Peach's in ''NSMBU Deluxe'', but it is more distinct in ''Mario Kart Tour''. About the Metal form being temporary, the same can be said about the Ice form from ''Super Mario Galaxy'', which is also a playable character in ''MKT''. And unlike ''SMG''{{'}}s Ice form, Ice Mario as a character is not immune to lava and fireballs, which invalidates the argument about Metal Mario as a character not being invincible.
| |
| #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} As Dry Bowser doesn't have his own character page, I think it'll be better if our wiki had a page on Metal Mario that deals with both the character and the form, basically a Metal Mario page for everything Metal Mario, similar to how we have all the bananas in one spot rather than split on the peel, the collectible, the one with a face, a one without a face, etc. It makes navigation easier and frees up having the distinguish between a form and a character, especially when they overlap or are inconsistent like in Puzzle & Dragons where Metal Mario has a pupil, or Gold Mario, a power, is a palette swap of Metal Mario in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Additionally, while you bring up Mario Kart GP where there's an item that turns character into metal forms, I don't see how this is a problem for the hypothetical article; you can say Metal Mario appears as a separate character while characters (including Metal Mario) can use a metal item. This support, however, is on condition we will apply this logic on other articles like Boom Boom and perhaps invite more questions onto the split between Toad/Yoshi/Kamek and the species they represent. Otherwise, Metal Mario should be split, especially when there's a game that has a metal form available AND Metal Mario is playable. The merge here won't suddenly erase Metal Mario as a character, it just makes it more of a convenient article while we can talk about how there's a Metal Mario character.
| |
| #{{User|DarkNight}} Per Preposal.
| |
|
| |
|
| ===Merge the Metal Marios but not Metal Luigi=== | | ===Merge the Metal Marios but not Metal Luigi=== |
| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} ...I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head! (per proposal, secondary option) | | #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} ...I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head! (per proposal, secondary option) |
| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per above discussion, but most specifically what I found regarding Metal Mario's status as a "rival" in ''Mario Kart 7''. Simply put, it is not present in the [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/amkj/character/index.html Japanese] or [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/games/oms/mariokart7/en_GB/characters.html European] websites, and the [http://mariokart7.nintendo.com/characters/ North American] website does not have the claim that was apparently invented in an [https://web.archive.org/web/20111125055046/http://mariokart7.nintendo.com/characters/ earlier version] which is no longer fully available, so the supposed statement appears to be long-forgotten by now (and, by the way, just so happened to occur after the wiki made the character split, something that I don't believe is a total coincidence). I think that is very significant because that one line held me back until I looked deeper into it - without a surviving description or storyline depicting Metal Mario as a character separate from Mario and the other playable power-ups, there is no solid justification for keeping it split from the form anymore (the only thing left is the observation about the alternate voice clips, but I have a feeling that point isn't going to age particularly well). Additionally, I'll say it again - if the [[#Split into .22Metal Mario.22 into two articles|above proposal]] was made today with the Metal Mario article still in its [[Special:Diff/709517|state]] at the time, it would most certainly not have passed.
| |
|
| |
| ===Merge Metal Luigi to Metal Mario (character) and leave Metal Mario (form) alone===
| |
| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} My second option. Metal Mario at least has a decent amount of appearances, but Metal Luigi is a one-time opponent that's just an ordinary fighter with a status effect.
| |
| #{{User|KingGeoshiKoopshi64}} My second choice. Metal Luigi has only appeared once as the reasons stated by Waluigi Time.
| |
| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I'm willing to support this as my second option, per Waluigi Time.
| |
| #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Second choice, per Waluigi Time.
| |
| #{{User|Alex95}} - Second choice, I'm fine with this one. Same logic as Fire Luigi being on the same page as Fire Mario.
| |
| #{{User|Tails777}} I'd go with this as a secondary. And again, Per Waluigi Time.
| |
| #{{User|DarkNight}} Per Waluigi Time (Second Option).
| |
|
| |
|
| ===Oppose=== | | ===Oppose=== |
| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} I feel the Mario Kart series is key here. Yes, other powered-up characters get unique voice clips, but when they do they either make sense for what form is being used ([[List of quotes from the Mario Kart series#Cat Peach|Cat Peach]]) or aren't out of character at all ([[List of quotes from the Mario Kart series#Tanooki Mario|Tanooki Mario]]). Metal Mario's bizarre quote warping doesn't fall under either of these categories, and I feel this point has been insufficiently addressed or handwaved. I will agree that I don't feel the Dr. Mario 64 appearance has a place here, though. '''EDIT:''' Additionally, Metal Mario predates the other powered-up characters by quite a while. Since this was a relatively weird thing at the time, it makes me think that he was always intended to be a character. While there were other similar oddities at the time like the first appearance of Baby Mario alongside adult Mario and an appearance of Shadow Mario alongside Bowser Jr., Metal Mario is specifically powered-up rather than a variation. Even nowadays being able to play as a powered-up version of a character isn't that common, being downright nonexistent outside of Mario Kart 8/Tour (exception being Gold Mario in Mario Golf: World Tour, however his animations confirm that it's just Mario). '''EDIT 2:''' Additionally as gamermakerguy pointed out in the comments, in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX, a game which has plenty of so-called "palette swap" characters, Metal Mario appears as a unique playable character rather than being considered a palette swap of Mario, unlike Fire Mario and Tanooki Mario who are Mario palette swaps in that game. Interestingly, Dry Bowser on the other hand is considered a palette swap of Bowser in that game. There's also the fact that the Metal form actually does appear in that game, obtained by the [[Heavy Mushroom]]. | | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} I feel the Mario Kart series is key here. Yes, other powered-up characters get unique voice clips, but when they do they either make sense for what form is being used ([[List of quotes from the Mario Kart series#Cat Peach|Cat Peach]]) or aren't out of character at all ([[List of quotes from the Mario Kart series#Tanooki Mario|Tanooki Mario]]). Metal Mario's bizarre quote warping doesn't fall under either of these categories, and I feel this point has been insufficiently addressed or handwaved. I will agree that I don't feel the Dr. Mario 64 appearance has a place here, though. |
| #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Waluigi Time. | | #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Waluigi Time. |
| #{{User|Alex95}} - Per my reasons, I'm standing by them. | | #{{User|Alex95}} - Per my reasons, I'm standing by them. |
| #{{User|TheDarkStar}} - per all | | #{{User|TheDarkStar}} - per all |
| #{{User|KingGeoshiKoopshi64}} - Per all reasons I've stated in all of my messages and per Waluigi Time.
| |
| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Waluigi Time.
| |
| #{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|Tails777}} Per Waluigi Time.
| |
| #{{User|Octoling Rendezvous}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
| |
|
| |
|
| ===Comments=== | | ===Comments=== |
| Line 208: |
Line 183: |
| ::::::::There's less than nothing indicating the entity in Smash and Golf was ever indicated to be separate the form, given there's ''actual evidence of them being the same''. Not just some "funny quotes, therefore different." Also on that subject, SSBU uses "character" Metal Mario's art in the contexts of Mario's forms, and Nintendo didn't have a problem with that, which is an implicit seal of approval on these being the same thing. Also, in regards o MK7, Metal Mario was the only alteration character, and his weird voice clips relative to those of later additions reflect that. MK8 was made once the originality/variety slump kicked in (think NSMB series's infamy), and Metal Mario's were simply ported. Either way, this doesn't address it still being "Metal Mario" ''in general'', and an evolution of a role doesn't make it a separate thing from the basis. Which is the sole purpose of separating articles. If this were a separate concept ''derived'' from the Metal Mario concept, ie "Super Metal Mario," then there'd be grounds to split it, but if they can't be buggered to give it a new name in any language, it's pretty clear they still think of it as the same thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:53, June 7, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::::There's less than nothing indicating the entity in Smash and Golf was ever indicated to be separate the form, given there's ''actual evidence of them being the same''. Not just some "funny quotes, therefore different." Also on that subject, SSBU uses "character" Metal Mario's art in the contexts of Mario's forms, and Nintendo didn't have a problem with that, which is an implicit seal of approval on these being the same thing. Also, in regards o MK7, Metal Mario was the only alteration character, and his weird voice clips relative to those of later additions reflect that. MK8 was made once the originality/variety slump kicked in (think NSMB series's infamy), and Metal Mario's were simply ported. Either way, this doesn't address it still being "Metal Mario" ''in general'', and an evolution of a role doesn't make it a separate thing from the basis. Which is the sole purpose of separating articles. If this were a separate concept ''derived'' from the Metal Mario concept, ie "Super Metal Mario," then there'd be grounds to split it, but if they can't be buggered to give it a new name in any language, it's pretty clear they still think of it as the same thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:53, June 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::::::::Actually, Metal Mario's quotes in MK8 are new, that's where the weird backwards quotes come from in the first place. Metal Mario's MK7 quotes are pretty standard actually, though they do have the vocal filter. It's obvious that the character emerged from the form, nobody's arguing against that, but I don't like the idea of merging a unique entity with a character putting on a special hat. The only "actual evidence" that exists that they're intended to be the same is the Melee trophy, which as far as I care is somewhat ambiguous and never outright states it. As for SSBU, after going through the spirit list I originally had a giant paragraph written out but I'll spare you the details. My conclusion is that spirit placement and the "form" lists aren't necessarily cut-and-dry, Metal Mario is included with Mario's forms, however Peach's forms include Baby Peach and her wedding outfit, and Bowser also has somewhat of a form list consisting solely of his wedding outfit while Dry Bowser is instead grouped with enemies and bosses from the 2D platformers. I will point out that for Metal Mario, even if it was intended to represent the power-up, the only other art options they had were SM64 (and the Mario spirits seem to avoid N64-era art entirely) or Puzzle and Dragons which has the orbs in it which would stand out a lot more than the tires, not to mention that the Metal Mario form usually seems to show him with irises now, making Metal Mario the character actually closer in appearance to the form in 64. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:40, June 7, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::::Actually, Metal Mario's quotes in MK8 are new, that's where the weird backwards quotes come from in the first place. Metal Mario's MK7 quotes are pretty standard actually, though they do have the vocal filter. It's obvious that the character emerged from the form, nobody's arguing against that, but I don't like the idea of merging a unique entity with a character putting on a special hat. The only "actual evidence" that exists that they're intended to be the same is the Melee trophy, which as far as I care is somewhat ambiguous and never outright states it. As for SSBU, after going through the spirit list I originally had a giant paragraph written out but I'll spare you the details. My conclusion is that spirit placement and the "form" lists aren't necessarily cut-and-dry, Metal Mario is included with Mario's forms, however Peach's forms include Baby Peach and her wedding outfit, and Bowser also has somewhat of a form list consisting solely of his wedding outfit while Dry Bowser is instead grouped with enemies and bosses from the 2D platformers. I will point out that for Metal Mario, even if it was intended to represent the power-up, the only other art options they had were SM64 (and the Mario spirits seem to avoid N64-era art entirely) or Puzzle and Dragons which has the orbs in it which would stand out a lot more than the tires, not to mention that the Metal Mario form usually seems to show him with irises now, making Metal Mario the character actually closer in appearance to the form in 64. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:40, June 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::::::From what I can tell, the iris thing only applies to P&D itself (which also had normal Boos able to become multiple King Boos at once) and a promotional keychain that simply used recolored generic Mario art. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:56, June 7, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::::::From what I can tell, the iris thing only applies to P&D itself (which also had normal Boos able to become multiple King Boos at once) and a promotional keychain that simply used recolored generic Mario art. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:56, June 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::::(edit conflict) Yes but what if Pink Gold Peach said well-known Peach catchphrases but in a different order? What if Dry Bowser went "TIME SHOWWWW" or some hypothetical Rusty Copper Luigi went "PAPA PIOOOO"? Don't you think these are in the minimum suggestive they're different characters? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:26, June 7, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::(edit conflict) Yes but what if Pink Gold Peach said well-known Peach catchphrases but in a different order? What if Dry Bowser went "TIME SHOWWWW" or some hypothetical Rusty Copper Luigi went "PAPA PIOOOO"? Don't you think these are in the minimum suggestive they're different characters? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:26, June 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::Not even remotely. Talking backwards does not a separate character make. Oh no, I must be Turquoise Sapphire Professor von Schmeltwick now. And again, Dry Bowser is sometimes a separate character (family friend), yet again gets a shared page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:31, June 7, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::Not even remotely. Talking backwards does not a separate character make. Oh no, I must be Turquoise Sapphire Professor von Schmeltwick now. And again, Dry Bowser is sometimes a separate character (family friend), yet again gets a shared page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:31, June 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::::::The first part is not a really good analogy,but for the latter on Dry Bowser I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps it's better if there's just a catch-all Metal Mario page rather than two split pages but we have to call into question with other pages that have questionable character splitting imo. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:55, June 7, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::The first part is not a really good analogy,but for the latter on Dry Bowser I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps it's better if there's just a catch-all Metal Mario page rather than two split pages but we have to call into question with other pages that have questionable character splitting imo. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:55, June 7, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::::That's exactly what I want. I prefer to split via concept, not relative role. And yes. In fact, Boom Boom's my next target. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:06, June 7, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::::That's exactly what I want. I prefer to split via concept, not relative role. And yes. In fact, Boom Boom's my next target. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:06, June 7, 2020 (EDT) |
|
| |
| @Waluigi Time: Speaking for myself, the reason I haven't bothered to address the voiceover discrepancy in the above discussion is because, to me, it's complete circumstantial speculation. I see it as vocal evolution, and not a quantifiable one that necessarily makes it out of character at all. Call it handwaving if you want, but it's not a part of the conversation that interests me personally. The part that I am interested in, however, is that the whole "rivalry" is predecated on what can be considered either a mistranslation at best or a fan-nod at worst (albeit well-intentioned), which isn't even available anymore. Regardless, the voice argument isn't something I feel can engage in a way that doesn't seem speculative on all angles.
| |
|
| |
| @Doc: I think we really need a "Merge Metal Luigi but not the Metal Marios" option for the opposition. I missed when it was brought up in the above discussion but the fact that it's a separate article is a little ridiculous considering Giant Donkey Kong has a much better reason to be its own article given it has a precedent in the franchise. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:02, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| Sure, the altered voice clips alone aren't enough of a reason to keep them separated. And ''Smash Bros.'' is a shaky case where creative liberties fly. But even without those, there are enough on Metal Mario as a character to keep him separate (going to sound like a broken record here).
| |
| #First of all, Metal Mario as a character is playable ''within'' the ''Mario'' franchise, in ''Mario Kart'', ''Mario Golf'', and ''Mario Tennis''. He is specifically referred to as "Metal Mario" instead of just "Mario", further separating the two.
| |
| #His character abilities in those specific games are different from Mario's. He has statistics that Metal Mario as a form does not portray.
| |
| #He has no limits. All of Mario's forms have some kind of limitation, be it a time limit or getting hit. Metal Mario as a character does not have this, as opposed to his form, which has a time limit.
| |
| Some counterpoints to my own.
| |
| #Baby Mario and Tanooki Mario are also classified as separate characters in various games, and yet they are still just an alternate form of Mario, like the Metal Mario form.
| |
| #Statistics vary from game to game. Mario himself has gone through adjustments, however little they may be, with each game.
| |
| #Properties vary from game to game. Using the Fire Flower as an example, Mario loses it in ''Super Mario Bros.'' when he gets hit, but in ''Super Mario Galaxy'', the Fire Mario form is on a time limit. Tanooki Mario can get hit in ''Mario Kart'' and still keep his form, as another example.
| |
| The main thing I'm worried about is the varied information on the article, as it will go back and forth on covering the power-up and character with various properties that it just seems best to me to keep things as they are. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 13:37, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :Thing is, though, all merging is is acknowledging it as officially one subject. Having them separate is treating them as two separate subjects, like they really aren't. The Wiggler article goes back and forth between covering a species of small caterpillars and large individual ones as characters, and it works perfectly fine. Similar situation with Big Boo. I feel this can work just as fluidly, and will if it passes. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:53, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| @Opposition Ask yourself this: Do you honestly think the localizers of Mario Golf 64 and the makers of Mario Kart 7 thought to themselves "Hey, let's use that Mario from ''Super Smash Bros.''!" when implementing Metal Mario? Because I can assure you they didn't; they wanted Metal Mario from ''Super Mario 64''. ''By virtue'' of splitting it that way, ''we are saying'' that they directly and deliberately added a ''Smash'' character who only ''happens'' to be based off an iconic form from a mainline Mario game to their game, and not just, you know, deliberately added a recurrence of that iconic form as a call-back. Because when you split things along lines like this, you are saying that the conceptual evolution went that way. That is ''inherently'' what splitting and merging are all about. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:49, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :I wouldn't say it's completely out of the question, Nintendo's made some strange pulls sometimes, and both games were released the same year. Alternatively, it's possible that they could've coincidentally developed a Metal Mario character separately since the groundwork was already there. For MK7, separate powered-up characters in sports games didn't exist at all at that point. (I would make a point about "why Metal Mario of all power-ups if they wanted just a Mario variant", but this was also the game that didn't include Waluigi because he was only a "cult favorite" in favor of characters like Metal Mario, Honey Queen, and generic enemies, so MK7's roster making any logical sense is a lost cause) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:18, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::If they ''did'' develop the "characters" separately, then if split at all, the "character" page should ''additionally'' be split between "''Super Smash Bros.'' series character" and "''Mario'' franchise character," since again, by virtue of having them on the same page, you are illustrating a conceptual path. That's what a wiki page's history section is inherently. The only kinda-sorta exceptions to this really are the "big" enemies, since splitting off different instances of "Goomba only larger" is a rabbit hole we should stay well away from. And even following the logic of keeping those merged, this is still "an instance of Mario, only metal." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:35, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::Even if they did develop them separately though (which we have no evidence to suggest they actually were) there's nothing different about Metal Mario in Smash at all to warrant splitting him out of this page. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:29, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::Metal Mario in Smash never had the warbly voice either? Being "a stubborn midlevel boss?" As for all other similarities (differences in weight, etc), those are shared with the form. If all arguments for keeping the "Smash" entity and the western "Mario Golf" addition (which furthermore, I doubt MK7's devs were referencing an AMERICAN addition) merged also work for re-merging the ''individual instance'' and form of typical Mario, then it shows there's no point leaving them split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:42, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::As I've seen you making a point about there being multiple Mario's in the original ''Smash 64''. The game had no Metal Box until ''Melee'' and there is only one Metal Mario you fight in the game as well and not even a team group of Metal Mario's appear to add it up, not even other characters became metal formed either without the item. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 17:37, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::Being a boss is just his role in the game, not a difference in the character that would make a split logical. Frankly I'm a bit confused where this point is going, originally you were talking about Super Smash Bros. and Mario Golf having different Metal Marios, but now you're talking about Super Smash Bros. and Mario Golf having the same Metal Mario while being separate from the Metal Mario in Mario Kart 7 onward, yet simultaneously arguing there is no Metal Mario character at all? Either way, I think we've fallen a bit off track here, there's nothing that would suggest that the Metal Mario appearing in Smash, Mario Golf, and the modern spinoffs is actually three separately developed yet coincidentally identical characters, only pure speculation of "they probably aren't meant to be the same character because I don't think so". And frankly, Metal Mario's clanging noises switching to warbly voice clips after a 12-year absence really means nothing when you consider how many other changes and updated designs occurred between the N64 and 3DS eras. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:43, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::I also want to bring up that [https://www.mariowiki.com/File:MKT_Icon_Metal_Mario_Emblem.png Metal Mario's emblem] including his variants being [https://www.mariowiki.com/File:MKT_Icon_Gold_Mario_Emblem.png Gold Mario] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/File:MKT_Icon_Ice_Mario_Emblem.png Ice Mario] have their emblems slightly differing from [https://www.mariowiki.com/File:MKT_Icon_Mario_Emblem.png "regular" Mario's emblem] including their "M" having a unique outline while "regular Mario's" doesn't unlike the other "regular" Mario variants such as [https://www.mariowiki.com/File:MK8_Tanooki_Mario_Emblem.png Tanooki Mario] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/File:MKT_Icon_Builder_Mario_Emblem.png Builder Mario] just being the same emblem "regular" Mario emblem but sometimes with small edits and recolors and lacking the unique outline that Metal Mario and his variants have. Metal Mario and his variants are the only "different" Mario clone to have a completely different version from regular Mario's more. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 19:53, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::Regarding the Smash thing: The lack of metal box doesn't matter in the slightest. There being multiple Marios means that he too is an additional Mario, just one with a pre-existing hook. As for "they probably aren't meant to be the same character because I don't think so," that is a pure strawmanning of what I am saying and I am appalled. ''Japanese'' developers aren't going to be referencing a ''Western exclusive'' Golf "character" from over a decade prior for their kart game. And while they were assisted by the American Retro Studios, a random golf character from 14 or so years before is even stupider a roster choice than the bee. Additionally, this is quite important, ''if you're saying this entity from Smash, Golf, and Kart is definitely the same despite the development history not making sense, then adding the form to that is the '''only''' way for said development history '''to''' make sense''. This isn't a separate subject. It's the same subject with a different role. And no, ''a powerup form is '''no different''' from any other sort of transformation that can be done and undone''. Saying "this comparison doesn't count because the character doesn't eat a fungus or put on a funny hat" makes no sense and comes off as dodging the question. One could consider ''lava'' Dry Bowser's powerup (and incidentally, there actually is [[Dry Bones Shell|a powerup granting Dry Bonehead's properties]], but that's neither here nor there.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:35, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::It's still just speculation and personal opinion though. Maybe the development history here doesn't make sense or seem logical to you, but without any word from the developers or witnessing the development process first hand, by no means does that mean it couldn't or didn't happen that way. I'd be very surprised if the Japanese developers were completely unaware of Metal Mario's presence in Mario Golf that entire time anyway. From what I can tell the entire basis of this particular argument seems to boil down to they can't be the same character because you personally feel the development history is too farfetched. And yes, you ''could'' say that Dry Bowser is a power-up form that Bowser obtains through getting dunked in lava, but the Mario franchise has pretty clearly defined rules for what a power-up is and stretching that definition past those rules probably isn't going to convince many people. You could just as easily argue that Mr. L is a power-up of Luigi and brainwashing is the "item". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:55, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::How is saying two things with the same name and the same design and the same abilities are the same speculation but saying they're different (as we currently do) ''not'' speculation? :\<br>
| |
| ::::::::::My entire point this whole time has been to ''erase'' the speculation (and, dare I say, straight-up fancrufting) this split is based upon at its core. My counterpoint here is that the devs of each further game on this page did not look to the previous instance to get inspiration, as they would with an actual character with some level of personality (and no, "talks funny" isn't a personality), but rather took the entity from SM64 and put a mutually unique spin on it each time, as is the norm when trying to bring something back after a while. That's the reason for the noise and eye differences. As for the powerups, why should a transformation where the cause is a temporary funny hat effect be treated differently in regards to character relationship than a temporary effect from [[Dry Bowser|lava]], [[Shadow Mario|a bib]], or [[Tanooki Mario|various]] [[Gold Mario|actual]] [[Cat Mario|powerups]]? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:04, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::Yes but that still doesn't the change the fact that Metal Mario in ''Smash 64'' is permanent (just like in modern games he appears in) and the only individual Metal Mario no matter what. The opposite happened when Fake Crash a doppelganger to Crash got to appear in Crash Bash in Japan only while he doesn't in the western releases so that isn't Metal Mario's regional problem alone, Also Mario's Golf's Japan's release files has a dummy file and seeing how Mario Golf released later in North America and Europe with some improves differences and consistencies after Japan which theirs seem to have come sooner. It's no surprise that the other releases got more polishing and work. It's kind of uncommon for different regional games having some different content and polishing those being a great example for ''Partners In Time'' but Japan and Europe was more definitive and polished content compared to North American release when compared. So it doesn't matter if Japan didn't use Metal Mario, even he is quite popular in that country, no joke. https://tcrf.net/Mario_Golf_(Nintendo_64) Also Dry Bowser is obviously not a power-up form. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 21:08, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::There seems to be a bit of confusion here, I'm only referring to the specific idea that there being three developmentally separate Metal Mario characters as speculation, not the "form = character" argument as a whole. And even if they are, if developers coincidentally make the same concept multiple times I'd rather keep them in the same place, i.e. the big enemies. For the transformations, again there's a pretty clear definition of what counts as a power-up in the Mario franchise. I think I've made it pretty clear why I consider Metal Mario a unique character but not Tanooki Mario/Cat Peach/Gold Mario. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 21:18, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::And that's a wholly arbitrary distinction you're making. I'd also like to point out that this page has a texture from SSBB, and in the context of that game, it's "totally random character has a permanent Metal Box" a la Melee's Classic mode. So if this "character" page can cover "Metal [the entire game's playable cast]," I fail to see why this can't be treated as equal to the SM64 form. Also, as for P&D, the fact that normal generic Boos can somehow evolve into [[King Boo|an established standalone character]] should not be discounted. The ''catalyst'' for a transformation doesn't matter in the "treating a standalone instance as the same as the derived form" debate, particularly as the only games to ''truly'' have both at once were ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'', which again had it on both the form and "character" (ie no-time-limit version of the same status effect) for the whole playable cast. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:51, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::What's so arbitrary about it? The fact is that the Mario franchise has a pretty clear cut definition of what power-ups and the transformations that go with those power-ups are. I'm not making the distinction, it's a distinction that Nintendo made themselves through gameplay. You can bend and stretch that definition all you want for personal uses, but I doubt that it's an argument that's going to get far here. As for the Brawl image, you're using that out of context. Notice how the rest of the page doesn't actually mention Brawl at all, it was clearly put there by accident by a confused user. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:46, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::It's arbitrary because it's a distinction that does not affect how spinoff rosters work; they include whatever the heck they want. As for the image, from what I can ttell it was added by Baby Luigi. What it is is both the pre-battle image for classic mode (which is a permanent Metal Cap, ie what Metal Mario is from Melee onwards, making this the same in that respect) and the "Special Brawl" visual (which amounts to the same thing). The problem with this is it makes it quantifiable for both at the same time, and if Metal Luigi is merged here, that's doubly so, since all the Metal opponents work the same regardless of character: a permanent Metal Box to make a midlevel boss. This is why all three should be merged outright, because the line itself is just to hazy and fancrufty to work. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:57, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::Even if it was done by Baby Luigi there is such thing as accidents or mistakes which CAN happen. Though since that image represents the stuff you said from ''Brawl'' that should be moved to the form's article. But I won't be fixing that until this is settled for now so I don't do it for nothing whoever agrees with one of the options the most. ''Dr. Mario 64'' is the only game to be true as a form of (Dr.) Mario but the other games Metal Mario himself appears in doesn't show any other evidence to be the case including all of the evidence Waluigi Time says, unlike all of the other games where he is shown as his own character and never seen to go back to another regular Mario unlike Gold Mario from ''Mario Golf: World Tour'' (the only game where he is separate while other games he is Metal Mario's alternate or variant). But in the roster of Dr. Mario 64 he is his own character and even regular Dr. Mario can appear alongside him if selected and it would be quite a headache to have the form and character mentioned in both of them even if these articles do end up being merged. Besides there hasn't been shown to be TWO actual Dr. Mario's in ''Dr. Mario 64''. That's also why I'm not keen on merging the two Metal Mario articles. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 21:38, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::It's a "headache" having them split. In Melee, Metal Mario was Mario with a permanent Metal Box. With "special rules" in later Smash games, you can have a permanent Metal Box on every character, thus making them functionally identical to Metal Mario (particularly if playing as Mario). If they are functionally identical, it makes more sense to have them on one page, correct? There was this thing I saw Walkazo say at least once, "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck." In this case, they're called by the same name, look the same (with a few ''minor'' differences inconsistent even between the individual items on each listing), and are functionally identical. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:57, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::Well it's 2x more the headache if they were merged it's less of a mess to keep them split because then it wouldn't get as confusing, but you won't seem to understand no matter how many times I tell you anyways! Except Metal Mario and Metal Luigi were the only Metal bosses you fought specifically in Adventure Mode for ''Melee''. In the ''Smash 64'' 1P Game, when the Announcer introduces Metal Mario, his voice gains a slight change and becomes metallic and the Announcer's voice sounds noticeably deeper and the same change in voice does not occur for announcing any other character in Classic Mode and that's only to Metal mario in that game! Also I'd like to remind you that Metal Mario the "character" is not invincible unlike the form, because in the ''Mario Kart'' series and some other spin-off games he always reacts when he gets hit even if a Spiny Shell landed on him. In ''Mario Sports Superstars'' his Double Boogie-Plus animations has a shell land on his head and he reacts to it with a "oof", Metal Mario the form never reacts to stuff hitting him negatively not even in Super Mario 64 and other spin-off. If that Metal Mario really is the form of another Mario, Nintendo would never use him due to the invisible status he has compared to the playable character who is his own entity for acting different completely. Except ducks are actual species of animals and have their own pitches of sounds. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 22:30, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::Reaction differences don't matter; same could be said for Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach. Also, the announcer using a "spooky" voice in one game adds literally nothing to this debate. Additionally, no, it ''is not'' confusing to have differences on ''who'' is Metal. For the Cat Peach example, her MK8 appearance is covered on Cat Mario's page, and isn't confusing in the slightest. Again, ''a difference in role does not make a different subject''. The fact that the "distinguishing" properties of so-called "character" can be reproduced by the player on ''any'' character in later Smash games ''proves'' that having these separate is flimsy, speculative, a violation of [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|once and only once]], and all around not helping anyone. As for invincibility, again, in Smash when using a Metal Box or a Metal Battle, they aren't invincible either, so that point cancels itself out (to say nothing of it being totally cosmetic in ''Super Mario Odyssey''). The "oof" thing also doesn't matter, since he's mute in the ''Smash'' games (including Ultimate iirc, which post-dates that). It's one of those "inconsistencies within the respective listings" I mentioned, so using it to differentiate from use as a "form" doesn't work. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:50, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::I'm starting to think that no matter what we say to you, you're just going to keep on simply dismissing us with your own simple "beliefs" like you saying "it doesn't matter" or "it means nothing" while not even acknowledging the evidence we find, especially you seem to have a hard time accepting the different Metal Marios when he as a separate character has been in the Mario series a little longer than the power-up form and all of these other "powered-up" Marios with their own slot even before Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach (even when not counting cameos) while the separate character is more relevant even in this decade. Also Metal Mario the form is a boss in ''Dr. Mario 64'', while the character in the roster is shown to be seperate with no other Doctor Mario shown to appear. You can't even have both Dr. Mario and Metal Mario fought in the story mode. Since Dr. Mario can only fight Vampire Wario. So are you really wanting to create even a bigger mess than what you think already is more of one to you? On top of that Metal Mario has been the second most recurring Mario clone in the spin-offs with Baby Mario being in way more. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 00:39, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::Since you were so kind as to edit conflict me while my internet was dying thanks to a storm, I'll share some bonus thoughts with you. In the ''Mario Party'' section of the "form" article, a quote by Bowser says "Answer quickly or your bonus points will fall like a Metal Mario off an airship!" I find the referral to '''''a''''' Metal Mario intriguing, though it's probably just Bowser doofing around. On another note, the form in Puzzle & Dragons is Dark/Dark attribute, which in my RPG experience would normally indicate evil (or at least sneakiness). Another point, so far the only game to depict Metal Mario as outright invincible is Super Mario 64. No later recurrence of any sort has this, only the weight. Finally, originally, the Metal ''Wario'' page was originally split too, but merged less than a month after this was split, curiously enough.<br>
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::Anyways, regarding your claim of "you seem to have a hard time accepting the different Metal Marios when he as a separate character has been in the Mario series a little longer than the power-up form," Super Mario 64 (form) predates Super Smash Bros. (alleged "character"), so I have no idea where you're coming from with that. Anyways, from the top: Nintendo '''''explicitly''''' considers these the same. To say they are different is '''''fanfiction'''''. We should merge these above all else because of that. All of this "they are different because [attribute that only applies to a single game anyway]" stuff isn't helping anyone's case. If it's not consistent, it's not something that holds weight in this sort of debate. As for your claims of me dismissing evidence, I have only done so when it isn't evidence at all. The Smash announcer using a funny voice isn't a reason to have them split; there's no correlation, let alone causation. It's merely an observation. I ''have'' debunked your talking about voice and vulnerability, while ''you'' have refused to acknowledge that which I have said. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:50, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::Well I didn't know...like I'm actually sorry that actually happened to your internet and device...You're right that the form did come first and would later be inspired by this character which is the most recurring character based on a power-up out of all and he wouldn't exist without the form. The metal form is technically invisible in Mario Party 6 & 7 since the traps from the orb spaces can't hurt you when you're in that form from the Metal Shroom Orb being active but for other games mostly just cutscene purposes and simple aesthetics, minus the ''Smash'' series and ''Super Mario Odyssey'' (it was just a costume) which they obviously aren't invincible, though ''Smash Bros'' has never followed the characters' source material accurately to their represented games anyways (such as Sonic able to swim but he sorta accurately gets damaged in ''Ultimate'' and the gold form in that game not shooting Gold Fireballs and being mostly immune to attacks in defense). Metal Wario made sense to be merged with the form since it was just his own metal form in that game uniquely it was never a character with his own slot, along with ''Mario Party 6'' & ''Mario Party 7'' and ''Smash'' being a form much later, that was very understandable big time. Waluigi Time made some strong points of what makes him different from the other power-up clones and the voices and I stand by it. You did NOT debunk me at all, that was only in your conclusion and because you chosen not to believe it in your own way! Metal Mario is quirky and acts the opposite from regular Mario, Mario himself never says these unique lines even if they are Italian terms, while Cat Peach uses human-like cat noises like in ''Super Mario 3D World'', Tanooki Mario's are just different voice clips like regular Mario already says while some are reused from other Mario games, Metal Mario the form NEVER says those lines and used since ''Mario Kart 8'' which is what makes Metal Mario's case way more different than Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach, while Metal Mario used to be completely a Mario clone he got differed with some newer installments. "The same" with your sources, Waluigi Time still made his points about the artwork @ "16:40, June 7, 2020 (EDT)" about the artwork. The only "actual evidence" you do have so far is the Melee trophy, but my issue is was how vague it was and it seemed like they were just mentioning it in general and I've already stated that a lot of trophies throughout the series have some mistakes and oversights which is concerning to use as 100% evidence. I will say that about Bowser saying ''a'' Metal Mario in ''Mario Party 6'' & ''Mario Party 7'' I think it was possibly a joke or something? --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 02:03, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::I debunked your points about "the character being voiced now while the form isn't" (the character isn't voiced in his latest appearance) and "the character isn't invincible while the form is" (the form is only sometimes invincible, and both sides depend on the game's genre). Regarding Metal Mario's different lines, they honestly don't strike me as being any different from Tanooki Mario saying "Tanooki!" There's really nothing putting them as some sort of "evil opposite" or anything with them. They're just different like the other pre-Tour-laziness forms. While whatever Pink Gold Peach is supposed to be remains a mystery, Metal Mario can be whatever role he wants to be, but in the end remains a single subject: Metal Mario. Anyways, no problem with the edit conflict, I was merely jesting at the issue. You obviously couldn't know. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:32, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::"Tanooki" for Tanooki Mario was the "only" line he said that is new and he ONLY says that in the character select screen Metal mario still has his unique in races, but that's it, he is mostly just reusing other Mario Mario voice clips either way. Metal Mario has more voice differences out of all of them. That still doesn't change the fact that the character Metal Mario has never been invincible regardless. Oh, FYI, mobile games have used regular characters and they get their own costume variants even ''Sonic Runners'' does that, that's kind of common. Either way I can't convince you no matter what you think so will have to see how the signings from other users think for whatever passes. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 02:42, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::If artwork is such compelling evidence for Metal Mario "form and character", explain [https://www.mariowiki.com/File:StampMetalMarioSmoothMK8.jpg Metal Mario's MK8 Stamp] then. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 02:45, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::What does that artwork have anything to do with it...? @The Metal Mario merging supporters; Alright so I figured out more things that I never thought of until now. But Metal Mario still has OWN character slot in ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX'' and that game uses an alternate costume system (Even Tanooki Mario and Dry Bowser are costumes to Mario and Bowser respectively but never are outside of that game and it's odd for Metal Mario to ONLY get his own slot still especially he is on model with Mario himself that could've easily been given to him, I can understand for Baby Mario and Baby Peach in that game staying separate 100% since they never been costumes and aren't on model fittingly) in the game, but first of all. There is an item that also turns the others into their own metal form with the item known as the [[Heavy Mushroom]] in the game and oddly enough Metal Mario has his own slot too despite that metal turning item also appearing alongside him separately too. It turns all characters in their metal form to knock over any rival kart they touch, bringing the rival to a stop. The effects of the Heavy Mushroom wear off after approximately 5 seconds. The thing is Metal Mario isn't normally a selectable character with his own slot (not even as selectable alt for Mario himself) in any ''Smash'' game (not counting hacking, especially for ''Smash 64'') especially with the Metal Box or anything else related to becoming the form being an item in that game other than ''Smash 64''. But ''MKAGPDX'' makes this special exceptional case here and quite obscurely too. Metal Mario has also NEVER been a selectable alt costume to Mario himself in all game rosters that Metal Mario even doesn't appears in his own roster or not, not even once and has always appeared in his own slot even to this day, not even in the third ''Mario Kart Arcade GP'' installment especially! When he has his own slot, he never appears alongside a metal item that turns "everyone" into metal until like I said, ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX'', unlike Tanooki Mario and Dry Bowser who they are selectable costumes in ''MKAGPDX'' but have been separate roster characters, once for Tanooki Mario in ''Mario Kart 8/Deluxe'' and always for Dry Bowser anyways. There is no Super Leaf item not even as a special item for Tanooki Mario in that game but something else brand new and Dry Bowser is just a bone hammer in ''MKAGPDX''. Also only costume variants get their own "exclusive" items in that game, while other characters "including" Metal Mario get random Special items in that game that aren't from the alternate costume characters "exclusive" special item. I'm aware that Cat Peach and Pink Gold Peach first became their own character but the reason why they weren't added in ''MKAGPDX'' is because that game was in development before ''Mario Kart 8''. Excluding Tanooki Mario, Mario's "costume" in ''MKAGPDX'' game just simply reused his artwork from ''3D World'' and that was only because he was added at post-launch, Cat Peach was added at post-launch in ''Mario Kart 8'' as well. This is the best and only proof I have that Metal Mario is his own character excluding Baby Mario, Metal Mario is the only and early Mario power-up "based" character (and even the first one) that has never EVER been an alt to Mario. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 18:51, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::::I do think this is a very good point but thought of a counterpoint which I will address here: "All of the palette swaps have the same stats as the original character, so they probably just wanted Mario in metal form to be in a higher weight class". However, as far as I'm aware the weight classes actually go completely unnamed in GP DX. Therefore, I highly doubt anyone would've noticed if Metal Mario would've had the same stats as Mario instead of the stats used by heavier characters if he really was just Mario. I'd also like to point out that Gold Mario is used as a palette swap of Metal Mario rather than Mario, also putting him in the heaviest weight class, which is interesting because Gold Mario has never been depicted as being heavier than normal, except for when he's being used as an alt for Metal Mario. Even in Mario Golf: World Tour, the only other time Gold Mario appears as a playable character in a sports game, and notably the only time where he's shown to be just Mario powered up rather than a Metal Mario alt, Gold Mario's stats are identical to regular Mario. So then, why make Gold Mario an alt of Metal Mario instead of just Mario himself? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:04, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::::While it is true that Gold Mario is not treated as heavy in most appearances, gold itself is an extremely heavy element. Basically, I believe Metal Mario is split from Mario in those games due to the weight differences, while Gold Mario is treated as an alt to Metal Mario because he's already in a monochromatic golem form, so it's an easier reskin. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:21, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::::::Like I said though the weight classes don't seem to be named, so putting him in a slightly lower weight class and having him as an alt of Mario wouldn't really be that strange, or even all that noticeable. The only difference being in the heaviest weight class makes is that it makes him faster and decreases his acceleration and handling. I'd be curious if anyone else who knows more about GP DX's internal mechanics could chime in with any other differences the weight classes have, if any. It seems odd that actual weight isn't mentioned at all when it's usually a displayed stat, so I wonder if there even is actually any weight in gameplay. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:35, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::::::It is true that all of the costumes have the same stats as they're corresponded to their base character's default. It's weird tho because you would think that Metal Mario should be a costume to Mario so easily and then the item gets chosen which would've made the item twice as redundant but the fact that Metal Mario is still separate is super odd, unlike Tanooki Mario especially having his own slot in ''Mario Kart 8'' but is a costume with Dry Bowser in ''MKAGPDX''. Even though ''Super Mario Odyssey'' came out several years later from ''MKAGPDX'' and is more so based on the forms model from ''SM64'', you would think that the Metal Mario outfit would be an issue as a costume due to it being heavy but the Metal Mario costume outright ignores it and that could've also been done for Metal Mario for himself to be a costume to Mario in ''MKAGPDX'' and well that's debatable for the Gold Mario costume. Because in ''Super Mario Odyssey'', when wearing the Metal Mario outfit, clanking can be heard as Mario walks in the outfit, and Cappy makes an audible clink if he hits a wall when thrown. So that could've been easily ignored for Metal Mario to be a skin to Mario. EDIT: I just realized, they could've easily used [[Robo Mario]] since he appeared in the first two installments since he is his truly his own character, I'm aware he was only a rival/boss in that game, after all he is a robot Mario clone created by E. Gadd. But the fact Metal Mario came in over him seems lightly suspicious. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 20:41, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Probably just the general shying away from original/unique characters that started midway through the Wii's lifespan, to be honest. The first two MKAGP games had a lot of bizarre designs and entities, since it was in the GCN era where there was a lot of that (ie Sunshine, Jungle Beat, Wario World, etc). As for the weight, I don't really think that a lack of ''classes'' makes for a lack of weight differences ''in general'', though it should probably be looked into. By the way @Waluigi Time, I'm curious on your thoughts about how in the later Smash games, Metal Mario's characteristics (ie the permanent Metal Box) can be duplicated perfectly for any character via special battle rules, something we have listed under the form despite being functionally identical to the "character." If they're functionally, visually, and naming-wise identical, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be on the same page? (Sorry if you already answered this, I don't recall you doing so.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:23, June 10, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I do agree that the weight system should get looked into for ''MKAGPDX''. You know, I'm actually really curious to see what happens if Metal Mario used the Heavy Mushroom, I'd love to see if anyone has footage of it. '''EDIT:''' Well it seems I finally found footage of [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUdbNCXQjt8 Metal Mario using the Heavy Mushroom], sadly it's quality isn't good in the footage but I can see that only the kart he drives in changes into Metal while he remains the same as he already is which makes sense, but the kart at least differs. Here is footage of Toad appearing in [https://youtu.be/88q1Fst7xgU?t=339 his metal form to compare in someway]. It seems the game does use a weight class as I saw Metal Mario [https://youtu.be/Ocs6iEdoVGM?t=813 bump Bowser Jr away from him] --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 00:42, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Well it's not necessarily that there aren't any weight classes since it's already been proven that they do exist, they just go unnamed in-game so a character being in a "weird" weight class wouldn't be very noticeable. As for the special battle rules, I think context is important. You're not playing as the Metal Mario character, you select Mario himself from the roster and he's permanently metalized for the duration of the battle through modification of the metal form itself, which applies to any other character. Contrast this with the original Smash, where the metal form isn't even obtainable at all. From what I can tell of Melee it is possible to fight any character in a permanent metal form, though not to play as them, with Metal Mario (and Luigi) having the distinction of being the only permanent metal opponents in Adventure Mode, for whatever that's worth. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:55, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::That's not metal at all, it just turns them monochromatic. In fact, [https://bandainamco-am.co.jp/am/vg/mariokart/special/item/catalog.php the] [https://bandainamco-am.co.jp/am/vg/mariokart2/special/item/prize.php official] [https://mariokart-acgpdx.bngames.net/item/tokushu/ sites] for Arcade GP games say nothing about Heavy Mushroom turning characters metallic. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:24, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :(reset indent) I mean, they're gray, shiny, and heavy, sounds like the metal form to me. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:59, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::@Waluigi Time Why should a permanently metal Mario not be considered the battleable Metal Mario when functionally, they are identical? That sounds like a violation of the "once and only once" rule to me. It's like I said before: splitting solely based on role doesn't work, particularly in such a whimsical franchise where roles are up to the developers', well, whims. Additionally, yes, Melee (and Brawl for that matter, can't remember if in 3DS or Wii U) have "Metal [random character]" as a "stubborn mid-level boss" in their respective Classic Mode...thus giving them the ''exact'' same role as Metal Mario in the first game, just replicable in VS mode from Brawl onward. Also, @LTL I'm curious if the Japanese description for the Melee Metal Mario trophy is less "ambiguous," can you share? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:37, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::Like I said, in Ultimate it's clearly just Mario. You select him from the roster and play as him. The functionality may be the same but context is key. Assuming there is a Metal Mario character, changing some settings doesn't magically turn Mario himself into an entirely separate entity. Maybe my reasoning is a bit flimsy for the rest of this, but in the cases of the boss battles, you're not just pulling Mario from the roster yourself and making him permanently metal yourself. I will admit that the appearances in Melee onward ''could'' be merged to the form article since there's other metal bosses in those games, but I'm not willing to budge on Smash 64 since the metal form didn't exist at all in that game, so it's clearly not just a case of the developers tossing in a fighter and then flipping a switch. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:46, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::He uses CPU Mario's AI, though, just with a texture swap and parameter differences. Like what they do with the fighting polygons, but slightly more unoriginal as it was already a thing. Also, in Ultimate, he's the boss of Bowser's classic mode in a similar manner to Giga Bowser in Melee's Adventure Mode. Meaning he has the same basic role as the previous Metal Mario, but is specifically transformed from Mario. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:00, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::Obviously he's a Mario clone, but the developers didn't just give Mario a permanent transformation that already existed in the game. Also, in Bowser's classic mode Mario isn't shown "transforming" into Metal Mario, you defeat Mario and then they just drop Metal Mario from the top of the stage and you fight him next. No special cutscene or animation like the game's actual bosses have. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:06, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::Probably because he's unique to that route so that'd be a waste of development time, but I digress. He's still an "actual boss" in that game as the final opponent of the route. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:11, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::Sakurai has said in his questionnaire that Giga Bowser is [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/syukeiken/return575.html separate] from "normal" Bowser. It's however shown to be contradicted in ''Brawl'' due to Bowser transforming directly in that form which is his Final Smash. But as for Giga Bowser in the ''Melee'' adventure. We do see that a Giant Bowser Trophy appears though it's quite hard to tell if it's the same trophy you would see fall from the scene after you defeated giant Bowser in that mode or a different trophy which the lighting mutates it. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 19:15, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::iirc it was the normal Bowser trophy, but this comparison proves that it doesn't matter if the entity is treated as the same or different from the base form - it's still the same entity as itself. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:31, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::When I say "actual boss" I just mean the characters specifically designed to be bosses that aren't just regular-ish fighter battles. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:05, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::To answer Doc's question about the Metal Mario trophy in ''Melee'', here it is when set to Japanese: 「マリオが”緑ブロック”を使うことによって、全身鋼鉄化したもの。敵に対して強い耐性を持ち、足音が重い音になり、水の中を歩行できたりする。『スーパーマリオ64』で登場。『スマッシュブラザーズ』64版では、中ボスとして出現する。硬くて重いが攻撃はあまり激しくない。」 (''When Mario used a "Green Block", his whole body underwent steelification. He has strong resistance to enemies, a heavy tread, and can walk underwater. “Super Mario 64” is the appearance. In “Smash Bros.” 64 version, he appears as a midboss. He was hard and heavy but his attacks were not very intense.'') Compared to the English text, it doesn't mention the metal cap as it's not in ''Smash'' and the last sentence makes a little more sense, but the key part here is that it emphasizes its appearance ''Super Mario 64''. This trophy's wording strongly suggests that Metal Mario was written to be the same subject in ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Smash Bros.'', filling a different role. Oddly enough, the only appearance listed below the description is 「スーパーマリオ64(N64)」 (''Super Mario 64'' (N64)), though this is true at the time since it was the only appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise in Japanese - ''Mario Golf'' was a western addition as mentioned above, and ''Dr. Mario 64'' wasn't released in Japan until ''Nintendo Puzzle Collection''. Regarding the ''Super Smash Bros.'' developer's site, Sakurai was known for not being 100% serious in all of his replies - for example, [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/PostReturn084.html once] when someone expressed surprise at Samus being a woman, Sakurai joking responded that Pikachu and Kirby might be female for all we know (note that this is before certain Pokémon including Pikachu had gender differences), as if that possibility adds more female representation to the game roster. In that Giga Bowser response, Sakurai is stating that Bowser's image grew to be softer and less scary in recent games, so I get the impression that he's saying that fans can consider Bowser and Giga Bowser to be separate entities from a design perspective. About Heavy Mushroom, ''DX'' textures refer to the effect as <tt><b>heavy</b>_kart_env</tt>, not metal. Additionally, Metal Mario has a slightly different texture when under a Heavy Mushroom's effect, and while Mario under a Heavy Mushroom's effect looks similar, it's still a different shade from both and has visible pupils and eyelids. That aside, for the four more of you voting to keep Metal Luigi as its own article, I'd really like to know why. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:07, June 11, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::That's like saying that the Curse Mushroom is different from a Poison Mushroom, even though they are the same item with a different name even with it's [https://www.mariowiki.com/Poison_Mushroom#Names_in_other_languages Japanese name] but just with a different function from a different series of the ''Mario'' franchise. It seems pretty similar in a situation how they call it "heavy" instead of "metal" similar to how they call "poison" to "curse" in some Mario games, I wouldn't be surprised if that was some sort translation error or something. However, I keep forgetting that Chromium is a type of metal, I nearly thought you simply meant like just black and white, so you're right. But I still find it rather intriguing and strange that Metal Mario was still given his own slot anyways and the weight could've still easily been ignored anyways since not many would notice a weight set in the game regardless. You got a point about what Sakurai says though I suppose I don't really have anything to counter it, I keep forgetting about how he says "this character can't be in" and then eventually tricks us, the biggest example being Ridley. I guess I have nothing else to add for the Melee trophy info for Metal Mario. --[[User:Gamermakerguy|Gamermakerguy]] ([[User talk:Gamermakerguy|talk]]) 02:04, June 12, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::The thing is I'm fairly certain the Cursed Mushroom is indeed supposed to be different from a Poison Mushroom, or at least, the Cursed Mushroom only appears within the context of a decreased dice roll item (and actually has a consistent bluish design), whereas the Poison Mushroom tends to only appear in minigames. When Poison Mushrooms eventually show up as dice roll items in the recent Nd Cube games, they still behave a bit differently in that their effect stacks. Regardless, the heavy effect isn't identical to the metal effect in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' games. The Metal Mario, heavy Mario, and heavy Metal Mario textures are all different, albeit subtly. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:27, June 12, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::In ''Mario Party 3'' the "Poison Mushroom" is an actual item with low dice block numbers. Mario Party 5-7 just calls them "Curse Mushrooms" because since Mario Party 3, the term for getting low dice numbers in the players rolls is called "curse" with nearly exact function and of course it was just re-translated and renamed, possibly from that term, it still has the dashed eyes but with slight hue change on the spots and Poison Mushrooms had gone through loads of changes. Even the Golden Mushroom had an odd rename too and had varying appearances especially in the ''Mario Party'' games, the "Super Mushroom Capsule" or "Super 'Shroom Orb" in ''Mario Party 5'' as the capsule and as orbs in ''Mario Party 6 & 7''. I am curious to see an image of how Metal Mario and Mario's Chromium form looks in comparison but it's not mandatory. Also I am ''Gamermakerguy'' I just got renamed in case you wonder. --[[User:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|KingGeoshiKoopshi64]] ([[User talk:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|talk]]) 02:17, June 14, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::I also looked into the P&D situation, and from what I can tell (and I may be wrong), the "power up" forms in it are separately selectable and not used via an in-game transformation. This means that if this is correct, this should be covered under "character," but that also includes ''every other form'', and by then Gold Mario has more than enough to be split if these aren't merged. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:34, June 14, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::But [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBaUpbEKXMY&t=10m28s the Jp version of MP3] also calls them のろいキノコ so it falls on the translators not realizing it wasn't supposed to be "Poison Mushroom" until MP5. Also "Golden Mushroom" is likewise スーパーキノコ. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 04:32, June 14, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::About the ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX'' textures, I overlooked something earlier - you can see the difference between "col"[or?] and "spe"[cial] textures [https://i.imgur.com/4fLbwtl.png here] but there is actually another set of textures in the driver folders beginning with "m"[etal] in their filename. A second comparison is [https://i.imgur.com/qUUVHPE.png here] (replacing the version of <tt>m_mario_body01_spe</tt> in the Metal Mario folder with the one in the Mario folder) - I now believe that the "spe" textures are probably instead used when certain damage effects flash by, so they aren't important to the comparison and I'm only including it due to mixing it up earlier (also why I split it between two pictures, because I noticed this detail midway through editing). Overall the textures in the Metal Mario and Mario driver folders still differ in features such as the eyes, but Mario's Heavy Mushroom effect is labeled identically to the main Metal Mario texture and Metal Mario as a driver does not appear to undergo a transformation when using a Heavy Mushroom as previously asserted. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:07, June 14, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::::Huh, should've asked me about the textures. "Color" is certainly diffuse/albedo/color. "Spe" refers likely to "[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specularity specular]" (see [https://help.poliigon.com/en/articles/1712652-what-are-the-different-texture-maps-for a list of some texture maps]"). It appears to be a particular grayscale mask that determines how "shiny" those pixels should be shaded, and that whiter pixels render as "shinier" than blacker pixels. Metal Mario IS made of a completely different material, metal, than Mario (cloth and flesh), so he's likely to have his own specular map to reflect (pun not intended) that (and in pbr rendering, he'll have a grayscale metallness map that's probably white all over except for the insignia to indicate that he's metallic; Mario Kart Arcade GP DX doesn't use pbr). {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:14, June 16, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::::::::I see, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I know who to turn to the next time I'm confused about textures. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 02:34, June 17, 2020 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| ==Permission to merge Metal Luigi on this article?==
| |
| Since so many people who want [[Metal Luigi]]'s article to be merged on this article and have the Metal Marios stays split (which that is settled), shouldn't Metal Luigi be merged to this article? I just want to check before I go to conclusions. --[[User:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|KingGeoshiKoopshi64]] ([[User talk:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|talk]]) 02:03, June 24, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :That option didn't win, therefore no. If you really wanted that to happen, you should have removed your "oppose" vote and have that as your only vote. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:39, June 24, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::I couldn't really tell and was hesitant to post this here, my apologize. I thought secondary votes counted along too to whatever got split or merged (hard to explain), it's not a big deal there. I also wanted to know since I thought Metal Luigi was going to be moved here. But I see it hasn't still and likely for the reasons. --[[User:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|KingGeoshiKoopshi64]] ([[User talk:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|talk]]) 03:14, June 24, 2020 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| == Has the proposal been settled? ==
| |
|
| |
| The option to do nothing didn't even outnumber the first option by three votes. Am I reading rule 9 properly? Shouldn't this be extended rather than close? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:52, June 25, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :Rule 9 says: All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options. [[User:DarkNight|DarkNight]] ([[User talk:DarkNight|talk]]) 19:03, June 25, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :You're thinking of Rule 10, which only applies to proposals with Support/Oppose. Rule 9 is for proposals with more than two options to be decided by more than half the people voting. 21 people voted, half of that is 10.5. The majority option has 12 people voting, which is more than half. The second-highest option has 10 people, which is just under half. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:04, June 25, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::All right. This is weirdly convoluted. I think it should be like simply one option getting the most votes by a margin of three. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 19:22, June 25, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::Rule 9 was changed like that because when the proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/45#Vote For More Than One Option On Proposals With More Than Two Choices|for multiple option voting]] passed, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/45#Change rule 9 to centre on voters rather than votes|the one to change the rule]] was made right after because of the concern that an option with majority support wouldn't win because it wouldn't have the majority of total votes. It shifted the weight from votes to voters. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:45, June 26, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::This seems more a total obfuscation to dodge the problem rather than actually solving it IMO [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:22, June 27, 2020 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| == Dr. Mario 64 ==
| |
|
| |
| This came up during the previous proposal so I'm going to start a discussion about it now. In Dr. Mario 64, (Dr.) Mario is specifically shown transforming into Metal Mario, which logically would make it an appearance of the form. The only reason we also cover it on the Metal Mario character page is because in VS Mode you can have Dr. Mario and Metal Mario being played as at the same time. However, Metal Mario's role in this game is identical to Vampire Wario, who we don't have split - Wario is shown transforming into Vampire Wario and can later be used in VS Mode alongside regular Wario. I think this is a clear case of them being separated solely for gameplay purposes, since in the actual story of the game it's just the form. This should make it a canonical (yes, the Mario franchise doesn't have a canon, just bear with me here) appearance of the form, not the character. Can we agree to cover this appearance solely on the form page? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:19, July 16, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :Thing is, though, you could say the same thing regarding the Metal battle; it's the same entity in a different context, that context being what determines this split. Similarly, there is the P&D case, which is a separately selectable "character" from the base Mario (as are the rest of his forms), yet solely covered on the "form" page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:32, July 16, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::I think we can agree to this at minimum, though I still don't understand why we're basing the split off games without story. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:44, July 23, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| :::Story in general, or the absence of it, doesn't really have anything to do with the split, but in Dr. Mario 64's case the story specifically shows that Metal Mario is Mario himself. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:12, July 23, 2020 (EDT)
| |
| ::::(reply to months-ago discussion) I still think having a page for everything Metal Mario, both form and character, is the way to go for this problem of determining what should go in what category. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:53, November 27, 2020 (EST)
| |
|
| |
| == Merge Metal Mario, take 2 ==
| |
| {{Settled TPP}}
| |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|8-0|merge}}
| |
| I'm aware that this has already been argued a lot, but I think that at the end of the day, there really isn't any good reason to keep [[Metal Mario|Metal Mario (form)]] separate from this page, and it probably beats out Boom Boom as the strangest split I've seen on the wiki. I'm honestly confused as to how it managed to stay like this for so long, and how the previous proposal managed to fail. These are exactly the same thing as each other, the sole difference being their roles, which obviously doesn't warrant a split or we should be splitting [[Bowser]] for being both a playable character and a final boss depending on the game. Since the original proposal to split these, many other cases of a power-up form being used as a character have arisen, some of which, such as [[Cat Peach]], [[Tanooki Mario]], and [[Gold Mario]], have appeared as characters in multiple games, so if we're not going to split those (which would be even more of a mess), then we should merge this for consistency. Additionally, it seems that this character and form separation was entirely fan-made, as the only official source to ever imply that they are different as far as I am aware was a since-deleted bio for Metal Mario on the North American Mario Kart 7 website which briefly mentioned that he was Mario's 'rival' (which was released after the wiki had already split these); every single other source has either treated them as the same or been ambiguous, which I think is evidence enough that Nintendo themselves don't care for this distinction and they just wanted another character to fill out the rosters of some spin-off games, so I don't think we should care about this distinction either. These points combined with the other points that were made by the first proposal and its supporters' votes I think are convincing enough to merge these (I was originally going to include counter-points for the votes of the opposers, but the proposal already addressed all of them, and there was only one anyway). The above discussion also proves that this split really just does nothing but cause confusion. Also, I'm not including [[Metal Luigi]] in this proposal although I agree that he should be merged as well, since I think that's a subject for another proposal and would be easier to do if we had just one Metal Mario page.
| |
|
| |
| '''Proposer''': {{User|Hewer}}<br>
| |
| '''Deadline''': September 19, 2021, 23:59 GMT
| |
|
| |
| ====Support====
| |
| #{{User|Hewer}} Per both proposals.
| |
| #{{User|Somethingone}} Per proposal.
| |
| #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Yes
| |
| #{{User|Ray Trace}} For me, Mario Kart Tour alts torpedo'd pretty much my old reasoning to why his article should be split from the form.
| |
| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per the old proposal, per the new proposal.
| |
| #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I'm supportive of the "unify this subject around a concept rather than hair-splitting distinction between character and form". I envision a Metal Mario article that deals with both the form and the character. Content can be like "Metal Mario is a form in Super Mario 64. Metal Mario is a playable character in Mario Kart 8 and has funny speech patterns from Mario. Metal Mario as a separate character and the metal form appear in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX." All of this will save speculative headache in the end. I still think Metal Mario is a separate character in some games, particularly with the odd "Mia mama" and "Papa" sort of quips that suggest a doppleganger, but you can just discuss this separate character alongside the form in the same article rather than jump from one article to another.
| |
| #{{User|WildWario}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|RHG1951}} Per all.
| |
|
| |
| ====Oppose====
| |
|
| |
| ====Comments====
| |
|
| |
| == "Metal-Head Mario" ==
| |
|
| |
| Should this be mentioned as an alternate name? Though it is just used in SM64 like... once, as far as I know.
| |
|
| |
| It could be something like:
| |
| "Metal Mario (also called Metal-Head Mario in one occasion), is a recurring power-up and variant of Mario..." {{unsigned|Lord Milaneso}}
| |
|
| |
| :I've added it. Also, please remember to sign your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:22, July 14, 2023 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| ::Oof, you're right. Thanks. [[User:Lord Milaneso|Lord Milaneso]] ([[User talk:Lord Milaneso|talk]]) 21:27, July 15, 2023 (EDT)
| |
