Editing Talk:Mega Mole
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==Superstar Saga== | ==Superstar Saga== | ||
Are these the same Monty Moles that give away prizes in MLSS? – [[User Talk: | Are these the same Monty Moles that give away prizes in MLSS? – [[User Talk:Spike|Spike]][[File:Spike Shield.png]] | ||
No, they are not...at least it hasn't been confirmed. Also the Monty Moles in MLSS are much smaller. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''aper '''Jorge'''</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Paper Jorge|Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.]]<tt>·</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Paper Jorge|Contributions]]<tt>·</tt></small>) 21:21, 19 October 2006 (EDT) | No, they are not...at least it hasn't been confirmed. Also the Monty Moles in MLSS are much smaller. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''aper '''Jorge'''</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Paper Jorge|Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.]]<tt>·</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Paper Jorge|Contributions]]<tt>·</tt></small>) 21:21, 19 October 2006 (EDT) | ||
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==Split Morty Mole from Mega Mole 2: Molectric Boogaloo== | ==Split Morty Mole from Mega Mole 2: Molectric Boogaloo== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|6-8}} | ||
Coming off the success of [[Talk:Swoop#Split Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 info into "Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)"|my most recent splitting proposal]], I'd like to reopen this. <br> | Coming off the success of [[Talk:Swoop#Split Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 info into "Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)"|my most recent splitting proposal]], I'd like to reopen this. <br> | ||
To recap from [[Talk:Morty Mole|my previous attempt]]:<br> | To recap from [[Talk:Morty Mole|my previous attempt]]:<br> | ||
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::::I have it conspicuously linked now at the top of the proposal, by the way. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:34, 10 October 2017 (EDT) | ::::I have it conspicuously linked now at the top of the proposal, by the way. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:34, 10 October 2017 (EDT) | ||
I admit my position is a little more relaxed since last time due to knowing some more about ''[[User_talk:Mister_Wu/30th_Anniversary_Books_Related_Questions#Super_Mario_Pia|Super Mario Pia]]''. However, the fact of the matter is, excepting the pattern broken by your recent [[Swoop]]/[[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Bat]] proposal, [[Brickman|we've]] [[Ninji (toy)|established]] [[Cuttacutta|precedent]] [[Spy Guy (Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis)|for]] [[Mummy Guy|internal]] [[Bob-omb Fish|names]] [[Robomb|in]] [[Mummy|various]] [[Statue Armour Ghost|article]] [[Hatopop|content]]. For example, prior to knowing the internal object filename for [[Phantom Guy]], it was previously considered a subject separate from [[Polterguy]] (as it turns out, its filename is identical), affecting wiki organization. (In fact, Phantom Guy and Polterguy both have differing appearances, behavior, and non-internal names - basically the same arguments made for "<tt>BasaBasa</tt>" & "<tt>Indy</tt>" - so where is the urgency for '''that''' proposal?) The game's own data is certain vital information mostly left out of this round, by the way - absolutely no one was bringing up Prima except to say that it's the only source for the name Morty Mole as of now, thus a merged Mega Mole would have that as the article title. Additionally, while ''Super Mario Pia'' is better at cataloging [[MarioWiki:Naming#Name_changes|name changes]] than ''Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten'', honest coverage gaps still seem to happen since you have to remember the book authors are not the game developers; for example, they listed [[Snufit#Names in other languages|Snifit]] as appearing in ''Super Mario 64'', while the enemy's Japanese name was corrected to something else in ''Super Mario 64 DS'' guides, which they did not use as {{ | I admit my position is a little more relaxed since last time due to knowing some more about ''[[User_talk:Mister_Wu/30th_Anniversary_Books_Related_Questions#Super_Mario_Pia|Super Mario Pia]]''. However, the fact of the matter is, excepting the pattern broken by your recent [[Swoop]]/[[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Bat]] proposal, [[Brickman|we've]] [[Ninji (toy)|established]] [[Cuttacutta|precedent]] [[Spy Guy (Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis)|for]] [[Mummy Guy|internal]] [[Bob-omb Fish|names]] [[Robomb|in]] [[Mummy|various]] [[Statue Armour Ghost|article]] [[Hatopop|content]]. For example, prior to knowing the internal object filename for [[Phantom Guy]], it was previously considered a subject separate from [[Polterguy]] (as it turns out, its filename is identical), affecting wiki organization. (In fact, Phantom Guy and Polterguy both have differing appearances, behavior, and non-internal names - basically the same arguments made for "<tt>BasaBasa</tt>" & "<tt>Indy</tt>" - so where is the urgency for '''that''' proposal?) The game's own data is certain vital information mostly left out of this round, by the way - absolutely no one was bringing up Prima except to say that it's the only source for the name Morty Mole as of now, thus a merged Mega Mole would have that as the article title. Additionally, while ''Super Mario Pia'' is better at cataloging [[MarioWiki:Naming#Name_changes|name changes]] than ''Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten'', honest coverage gaps still seem to happen since you have to remember the book authors are not the game developers; for example, they listed [[Snufit#Names in other languages|Snifit]] as appearing in ''Super Mario 64'', while the enemy's Japanese name was corrected to something else in ''Super Mario 64 DS'' guides, which they did not use as {{media link|SMP page 98 opt.png|reference material}}. Moreover, one facet important to me remains unaddressed: if this splits, does the coverage for the big Monty Mole from ''Super Mario Maker'' go into the same nebulous yet easily avoidable situation that [[Para-Beetle]]/[[Parabuzzy]] was in back when they were split? If that is the case, my stance is already settled. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:45, 10 October 2017 (EDT) | ||
:Also, don't you think starting this proposal fresh on another talk page without going into very much detail about the reasons it failed last time is rather [[User_talk:Semako#Regarding_file_names.|misleading to others?]] [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:01, 10 October 2017 (EDT) | :Also, don't you think starting this proposal fresh on another talk page without going into very much detail about the reasons it failed last time is rather [[User_talk:Semako#Regarding_file_names.|misleading to others?]] [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:01, 10 October 2017 (EDT) | ||
::I linked to the other proposal. And it was like 5 in the morning, so I can't be expected to have all the info for why it failed. And @YoshiTheSSM the original Japanese name for Boss Bass/Big Bertha was "Kyodai Pukupuku," literally "Giant Cheep Cheep," meaning it was originally intended to simply be a larger counterpart to Cheep Cheep back then, a role now filled by Big Cheep Cheep. That's why I brought that up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:48, 10 October 2017 (EDT) | ::I linked to the other proposal. And it was like 5 in the morning, so I can't be expected to have all the info for why it failed. And @YoshiTheSSM the original Japanese name for Boss Bass/Big Bertha was "Kyodai Pukupuku," literally "Giant Cheep Cheep," meaning it was originally intended to simply be a larger counterpart to Cheep Cheep back then, a role now filled by Big Cheep Cheep. That's why I brought that up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:48, 10 October 2017 (EDT) | ||
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==Split Morty Mole from Mega Mole (again)== | ==Split Morty Mole from Mega Mole (again)== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|14-6|split}} | ||
Deciding to propose this again, as I honestly feel like these two being lumped together is honestly inaccurate. Were I active on the wiki at the time of the last proposal (see above), I would have supported it. | Deciding to propose this again, as I honestly feel like these two being lumped together is honestly inaccurate. Were I active on the wiki at the time of the last proposal (see above), I would have supported it. | ||
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I would like to talk about the points that I think indicated that the link between Swoops and Bats was there in the games' files but they were kept distinct nonethless: | I would like to talk about the points that I think indicated that the link between Swoops and Bats was there in the games' files but they were kept distinct nonethless: | ||
*first of all, the official name in the guides and 30th anniversary books was different: ''BasaBasa/Swoop'' versus ''Batton/Bat'', never used interchangeably - after the return of enemies officially known as ''BasaBasa'', we didn't see enemies with the appearance of ''BasaBasa'' being referreed to in books as ''Batton'' and vice versa; | *first of all, the official name in the guides and 30th anniversary books was different: ''BasaBasa/Swoop'' versus ''Batton/Bat'', never used interchangeably - after the return of enemies officially known as ''BasaBasa'', we didn't see enemies with the appearance of ''BasaBasa'' being referreed to in books as ''Batton'' and vice versa; | ||
*indeed, Swoops always {{ | *indeed, Swoops always {{media link|Swoop SMR.png|retained}} {{media link|SwooperArtwork.jpg|their original appearance}} after the introduction of Bats, with just a recoloring and minor changes, they didn't gain the pig face or the eyes with circular irises; | ||
*we also had {{ | *we also had {{media link|SMP page 62 excerpt.png|an official book listing them as separate}}, although it's very difficult for editors of these books to properly acknowledge renaming - if the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' and what happened with the Japanese character books of the '90s is an indication, Nintendo still mostly works on a ''per game'' basis rather than a ''per character'' basis. | ||
From what I've seen, what we are missing here so far is information to confirm the points - the ''Super Mario Pia'' is missing both Mega Moles and Morty Moles and in Super Mario Maker the enlarged moles aren't referred to as ''Indy'' or ''Goropoo'' in the game's files, indeed there's just one sprite set for both normal and enlarged Monty Moles, the one of ''Choropoo''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:47, 15 February 2018 (EST) | From what I've seen, what we are missing here so far is information to confirm the points - the ''Super Mario Pia'' is missing both Mega Moles and Morty Moles and in Super Mario Maker the enlarged moles aren't referred to as ''Indy'' or ''Goropoo'' in the game's files, indeed there's just one sprite set for both normal and enlarged Monty Moles, the one of ''Choropoo''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:47, 15 February 2018 (EST) | ||
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::I addressed all points - especially the ''Super Mario Maker'' naming - in the discussion above. [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/3ds/arej/pdf/p018_019.pdf Here are the scans of the ''Nintendo Official Guidebook'' of ''Super Mario 3D Land''], if you want the scans of the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', I can upload those as well. I was talking about the cases being different. Since Nintendo is a Japanese company, the official Japanese name is way more important than other non-English names and in the case of Parabuzzy and Para-Beetle it was the same, while here it is different.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:42, 1 March 2018 (EST) | ::I addressed all points - especially the ''Super Mario Maker'' naming - in the discussion above. [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/3ds/arej/pdf/p018_019.pdf Here are the scans of the ''Nintendo Official Guidebook'' of ''Super Mario 3D Land''], if you want the scans of the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', I can upload those as well. I was talking about the cases being different. Since Nintendo is a Japanese company, the official Japanese name is way more important than other non-English names and in the case of Parabuzzy and Para-Beetle it was the same, while here it is different.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:42, 1 March 2018 (EST) | ||
Incidentally, I also discovered that [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/3ds/arej/pdf/p018_019.pdf Morty Moles are officially stated to be huge Monty Moles (「巨大なチョロプー」)], while the bios of Mega Moles consistently stated that they were bosses of the moles, in particular Monty Moles (you can see this {{ | Incidentally, I also discovered that [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/3ds/arej/pdf/p018_019.pdf Morty Moles are officially stated to be huge Monty Moles (「巨大なチョロプー」)], while the bios of Mega Moles consistently stated that they were bosses of the moles, in particular Monty Moles (you can see this {{media link|PEGMCE page 41.png|in the ''Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten''}} a.k.a. [[Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]], {{media link|SMBD page 60.png|in the ''Super Mario Bros. Daizukan''}} and {{media link|SMCE page 45.png|in the ''Super Mario Zen Hyakka''}} a.k.a. ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia''). Of course, after so many years, discrepancies can be expected even in the bios.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:42, 1 March 2018 (EST) | ||
:Definitely interesting to note, it shows that there are differences between the two at least. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 03:01, 2 March 2018 (EST) | :Definitely interesting to note, it shows that there are differences between the two at least. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 03:01, 2 March 2018 (EST) | ||
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'''Mega Mole vs. Morty Mole: An organized overview:''' | '''Mega Mole vs. Morty Mole: An organized overview:''' | ||
*Article 1: The two look completely different: | *Article 1: The two look completely different: | ||
**A: Mega Mole is a large variation of the Monty Mole, which unlike the Monty Mole, wears sunglasses. A common rebuke of this is using [[:File:SMW MontyMole.png|this artwork]] to say that Monty Mole has sunglasses in Super Mario World; despite [[:File:MontyMoleL.gif|their sprite]] clearly lacking them. However, with Mister Wu's guide uploads, I can now confirm that [[:File:SMBD page 60.png|''Super Mario World'' art for Monty Moles did not ''always'' have sunglasses]], and in fact, looked like the in-game sprite. This artwork was clearly in usage by Nintendo and not just the guide, as it paved the way for [[:File:MontySM64.png|later]] [[:File:MPA | **A: Mega Mole is a large variation of the Monty Mole, which unlike the Monty Mole, wears sunglasses. A common rebuke of this is using [[:File:SMW MontyMole.png|this artwork]] to say that Monty Mole has sunglasses in Super Mario World; despite [[:File:MontyMoleL.gif|their sprite]] clearly lacking them. However, with Mister Wu's guide uploads, I can now confirm that [[:File:SMBD page 60.png|''Super Mario World'' art for Monty Moles did not ''always'' have sunglasses]], and in fact, looked like the in-game sprite. This artwork was clearly in usage by Nintendo and not just the guide, as it paved the way for [[:File:MontySM64.png|later]] [[:File:MPA MontyMole.png|appearances]] [[:File:MontyMole MarioFamily.png|in]] [[:File:MontyMole Miracle Moles 6.png|various]] [[:File:MontyMoleYT&G.png|games]] until they were given their modern appearance. Let's compare and contrast the artwork of Monty Mole and Mega Mole as seen there. Mega Mole has, as I've mentioned on numerous occasions, sunglasses and a smug, jutted-out lower lip. Monty Mole, on the other hand, has no sunglasses, and while the face is smug, there isn't a potruding lip to be seen. | ||
***a: There is ''one'' detail suggesting Mega Moles were intended to be simply upscaled Monty Moles, and that is the Monty Moles' [https://www.spriters-resource.com/resources/sheets/7/7549.png appearance] in ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'', released twelve years later, which features sunglasses and smug lips. However, this detail is rendered basically worthless by the fact that in the same game, [[Hammer Bro]]s [[:File:Superstar Saga Hammer Bros.png|took after]] [[Sledge Bro|their respective larger not-quite counterpart]], while [https://www.spriters-resource.com/3ds/marioluigisuperstarsagabowsersminions/sheet/97887/ both] [[:File:MLSSBMHammerBro.png|appear]] on-model in the remake. | ***a: There is ''one'' detail suggesting Mega Moles were intended to be simply upscaled Monty Moles, and that is the Monty Moles' [https://www.spriters-resource.com/resources/sheets/7/7549.png appearance] in ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'', released twelve years later, which features sunglasses and smug lips. However, this detail is rendered basically worthless by the fact that in the same game, [[Hammer Bro]]s [[:File:Superstar Saga Hammer Bros.png|took after]] [[Sledge Bro|their respective larger not-quite counterpart]], while [https://www.spriters-resource.com/3ds/marioluigisuperstarsagabowsersminions/sheet/97887/ both] [[:File:MLSSBMHammerBro.png|appear]] on-model in the remake. | ||
***b: Ordinary Monty Moles are depicted with sunglasses in ''[[:File:MontyMole MK64.png|Mario Kart 64]]'', ''[[:File:MP3 Monty Mole | ***b: Ordinary Monty Moles are depicted with sunglasses in ''[[:File:MontyMole MK64.png|Mario Kart 64]]'', ''[[:File:MP3 Monty Mole.jpg|Mario Party 3]]'', and ''[[:File:PMMontyMole.png|Paper Mario]]'', based upon the inaccurate "jumping" artwork from ''Super Mario World''; however, this does not change the fact that the Monty Moles ''has'' artwork for ''Super Mario World'' depicting it without glasses, akin to the game's sprite. Furthermore the art does not appear to be original to that specific guide, as it appears to have been drawn in conjunction with the Mega Mole artork, due to the similar pose and details. ''Paper Mario'' also had other unusual designs, such as giving Pokey [[:File:PokeyPM.png|a strange catlike appearance]] ''possibly'' based tenuously off of [[:File:SMWPokeySprite.png|its ''Super Mario World'' sprites]], as opposed to [[:File:Old Pokey 64.png|its unnecessarily demonic]] ''Super Mario 64'' design, giving [[:File:HammerBroPM.png|Hammer Bro]] a blue helmet and mostly-wooden hammer, giving [[:File:PMDryBones.png|Dry Bones]] hair, making [[:File:SwooperPM.png|Swoop(er)]] purple, making [[:File:BillBlasterPM.png|Bill Blaster]] a generic cannon, making [[:File:PMLavaBubbleBattle.png|Lava Bubble]] an upright flame, giving [[:File:SpikeTop PM.png|Spike Top]] pale tan skin and an orange shell rim and claws, as well as whatever was going on with [[:File:PMBoo.png|Boo]]'s face. | ||
***c: Aside from the ''Superstar Saga'' sprite, all of the sunglass-wearing Monty Moles metioned above lack a jutted-out lower lip, smug expression, or pointy nose, instead having a short, gopher-like nose with a split upper lip with whiskers, like what Monty Moles have had in most games since ''Super Mario 64 DS'', while most prior games (and a few closely-following games) gave them a pushed-out, pointed nose. The large-nosed design also gave them prominent cheeks, while the designs with the gopher-like nose (including most of the sunglass-wearing ones) have flat or even somewhat concave cheeks with no prominence. While the existence of a lower lip comes and goes, they are never as prominent as that of a Mega Mole, again barring the off-model 'Superstar Saga'' sprite. | ***c: Aside from the ''Superstar Saga'' sprite, all of the sunglass-wearing Monty Moles metioned above lack a jutted-out lower lip, smug expression, or pointy nose, instead having a short, gopher-like nose with a split upper lip with whiskers, like what Monty Moles have had in most games since ''Super Mario 64 DS'', while most prior games (and a few closely-following games) gave them a pushed-out, pointed nose. The large-nosed design also gave them prominent cheeks, while the designs with the gopher-like nose (including most of the sunglass-wearing ones) have flat or even somewhat concave cheeks with no prominence. While the existence of a lower lip comes and goes, they are never as prominent as that of a Mega Mole, again barring the off-model 'Superstar Saga'' sprite. | ||
**B: Morty Mole is a large variation of the Monty Mole, with a mahogany body, a tan belly, and a much higher-up face. There is not any eyewear to be seen, which as I pointed out previously, was actually already an abberation among the Moles for the Mega Mole to wear them. Other than that, nothing more appearance-wise to write home about them. | **B: Morty Mole is a large variation of the Monty Mole, with a mahogany body, a tan belly, and a much higher-up face. There is not any eyewear to be seen, which as I pointed out previously, was actually already an abberation among the Moles for the Mega Mole to wear them. Other than that, nothing more appearance-wise to write home about them. | ||
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== Big Monty Mole == | == Big Monty Mole == | ||
{{talk}} | |||
Big Monty Moles, larger versions of regular [[Monty Moles]], appear in the [[Super Mario Maker (disambiguation)|Super Mario Maker series]] and [[Yoshi's Crafted World]]. However, neither this article or the [[Morty Mole]] article mentions this. How should we handle this? Some people may think Big Monty Moles are the same as Mega Moles, but I think they are different. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 13:18, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | Big Monty Moles, larger versions of regular [[Monty Moles]], appear in the [[Super Mario Maker (disambiguation)|Super Mario Maker series]] and [[Yoshi's Crafted World]]. However, neither this article or the [[Morty Mole]] article mentions this. How should we handle this? Some people may think Big Monty Moles are the same as Mega Moles, but I think they are different. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 13:18, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Definitely. They should be split. But since they're called "big Monty Moles", and not "Big Monty Mole", we'd have to use the Mario Party name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:21, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | :Definitely. They should be split. But since they're called "big Monty Moles", and not "Big Monty Mole", we'd have to use the Mario Party name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:21, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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:::::Big Monty Moles are certainly different from regular ones in ''YCW''. They require two hits to defeat, turning red on the first hit. Big Monty Moles are always found in the background, so they can only be interacted with by throwing eggs. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 14:00, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | :::::Big Monty Moles are certainly different from regular ones in ''YCW''. They require two hits to defeat, turning red on the first hit. Big Monty Moles are always found in the background, so they can only be interacted with by throwing eggs. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 14:00, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::::Mega Goomba is merged to the Big Goomba page, we should either change that or stay consistent. As the big Monty Moles are different in ''YCW'' they are definitely worthy of coverage (we can use the {{tem|Distinguish}} template or the {{tem|about}} template of the Mega Mole page, not sure if it is needed on the Morty Mole page) and we might as well cover their appearance in ''SMM'' given that their generic appearance is different than regular Mony Moles in at least one game. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 14:09, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | ::::::Mega Goomba is merged to the Big Goomba page, we should either change that or stay consistent. As the big Monty Moles are different in ''YCW'' they are definitely worthy of coverage (we can use the {{tem|Distinguish}} template or the {{tem|about}} template of the Mega Mole page, not sure if it is needed on the Morty Mole page) and we might as well cover their appearance in ''SMM'' given that their generic appearance is different than regular Mony Moles in at least one game. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 14:09, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | ||