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| ==False or fake Bowser== | | ==False or fake Bowser== |
| | {{Talk}} |
| This shold be called false Bowser or fake Bowser instead of Bowser impostor. [[User:MarioKart7player|MarioKart7player]] ([[User talk:MarioKart7player|talk]]) 08:26, 9 February 2015 (EST) | | This shold be called false Bowser or fake Bowser instead of Bowser impostor. [[User:MarioKart7player|MarioKart7player]] ([[User talk:MarioKart7player|talk]]) 08:26, 9 February 2015 (EST) |
| :Why? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:49, 9 February 2015 (EST) | | :Why? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:49, 9 February 2015 (EST) |
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| {{@|Hewer|Camwoodstock|Tails777|FanOfYoshi|LadySophie17|LinkTheLefty|Nintendo101|Technetium|Sparks|Waluigi Time|Sdman213|Blinker|PrincessPeachFan}} I decided to cancel this proposal since the reasoning from everyone including me has been speculative given Jamboree has yet to release. I also didn't want to set a negative precedent that every new Bowser impersonator introduced is treated as the same character. Since no decision was reached, we can open up this proposal again when the game comes out if there is still disagreement on what to do with the character. Additionally, I feel like lumping this character with [[Fake Bowser]] would violate the "[[MarioWiki:Good writing#Everything but the kitchen sink|Everything but the kitchen sink]]" principle of the good writing guide. That said, Impostor Bowser should be deleted from the Fake Bowser page for the time being which I will do. And here's the foreign names for Impostor Bowser btw, | | {{@|Hewer|Camwoodstock|Tails777|FanOfYoshi|LadySophie17|LinkTheLefty|Nintendo101|Technetium|Sparks|Waluigi Time|Sdman213|Blinker|PrincessPeachFan}} I decided to cancel this proposal since the reasoning from everyone including me has been speculative given Jamboree has yet to release. I also didn't want to set a negative precedent that every new Bowser impersonator introduced is treated as the same character. Since no decision was reached, we can open up this proposal again when the game comes out if there is still disagreement on what to do with the character. Additionally, I feel like lumping this character with [[Fake Bowser]] would violate the "[[MarioWiki:Good writing#Everything but the kitchen sink|Everything but the kitchen sink]]" principle of the good writing guide. That said, Impostor Bowser should be deleted from the Fake Bowser page for the time being which I will do. And here's the foreign names for Impostor Bowser btw, |
| {{foreign names | | {{foreign names |
| |Jpn=ニセクッパ | | |Jap=ニセクッパ |
| |JpnR=Nise Kuppa | | |JapR=Nise Kuppa |
| |JpnM=Fake Bowser | | |JapM=Fake Bowser |
| |Ita=Bowser finto | | |Ita=Bowser finto |
| |ItaM=Fake Bowser | | |ItaM=Fake Bowser |
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| :::::::::::Both subjects are: (1) common enemies that have been magically turned into Bowser; (2) serve a comparable role to the actual Bowser in their respective series; and (3) go by the same exact name in most languages (with the Japanese names - the language of origin for both subjects - only being different syllabaries and are even pronounced the same way). I don't agree that fake Bowser is as obscure as you say it is - the original ''Super Mario Bros.'' is Nintendo's most significant entry in their franchise, and the enemy has been acknowledged in modern reference material (including the [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/smb2/index.html Mario Portal Game Archive for ''The Lost Levels''] and the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''). Fake Bowsers were even included in ''Super Mario Run'', so NCL clearly has not forgotten about this concept. The suggestion that [[Nintendo Cube]] may have accidentally created the <u>same exact concept</u> for ''Super Mario Party Jamboree'', and even gave it the same name and made both specifically enemies that are transformed, seems overly cautious. Everything has been provided in the game that would signal that fake Bowser and Impostor Bowser are one in the same. What is so unique about this situation that distinguishes it from others where an enemy, character, or boss that debuted in the mainline ''Super Mario'' games is incorporated into a different series like ''Mario Party''? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:22, October 16, 2024 (EDT) | | :::::::::::Both subjects are: (1) common enemies that have been magically turned into Bowser; (2) serve a comparable role to the actual Bowser in their respective series; and (3) go by the same exact name in most languages (with the Japanese names - the language of origin for both subjects - only being different syllabaries and are even pronounced the same way). I don't agree that fake Bowser is as obscure as you say it is - the original ''Super Mario Bros.'' is Nintendo's most significant entry in their franchise, and the enemy has been acknowledged in modern reference material (including the [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/smb2/index.html Mario Portal Game Archive for ''The Lost Levels''] and the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''). Fake Bowsers were even included in ''Super Mario Run'', so NCL clearly has not forgotten about this concept. The suggestion that [[Nintendo Cube]] may have accidentally created the <u>same exact concept</u> for ''Super Mario Party Jamboree'', and even gave it the same name and made both specifically enemies that are transformed, seems overly cautious. Everything has been provided in the game that would signal that fake Bowser and Impostor Bowser are one in the same. What is so unique about this situation that distinguishes it from others where an enemy, character, or boss that debuted in the mainline ''Super Mario'' games is incorporated into a different series like ''Mario Party''? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:22, October 16, 2024 (EDT) |
| ::::::::::::Perhaps it's just me, but I still find the fact that there is any naming difference at all to be notable, especially since, as you say, "Fake Bowser" is still acknowledged in recent material (considering this is the first game to use "Bomber Bill", a name that first appeared on Mario Portal, it would be odd for it to use a different name for Fake Bowser), plus the visual difference with the Kamek magic effects. Even if it's an extremely similar concept to fake Bowser, that doesn't make it necessarily the same subject; we have cases like [[Mushroom Genie]] and [[Genie of the Lamp]], and [[Princess (Paper Mario: Color Splash)|Princess]] and [[Princess (Paper Mario: The Origami King)|Princess]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:09, October 16, 2024 (EDT) | | ::::::::::::Perhaps it's just me, but I still find the fact that there is any naming difference at all to be notable, especially since, as you say, "Fake Bowser" is still acknowledged in recent material (considering this is the first game to use "Bomber Bill", a name that first appeared on Mario Portal, it would be odd for it to use a different name for Fake Bowser), plus the visual difference with the Kamek magic effects. Even if it's an extremely similar concept to fake Bowser, that doesn't make it necessarily the same subject; we have cases like [[Mushroom Genie]] and [[Genie of the Lamp]], and [[Princess (Paper Mario: Color Splash)|Princess]] and [[Princess (Paper Mario: The Origami King)|Princess]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:09, October 16, 2024 (EDT) |
| :::::::::::::I personally do not view it as a comparable situation, because "fake Bowser" has not been meaningfully conveyed to Western audiences as often as it has in Japan. There are not many original English sources for ''Super Mario Bros.'' or ''The Lost Levels'' that even mention this enemy, so the integration of the English name "fake Bowser" on Mario Portal is potentially because that is what we named our article - not because the translators at Nintendo of America critically thought that was the best term for the enemy. (Or at least that has always been my impression of the site, especially on pages for games like ''[https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/land2/index.html Super Mario Land 2]''). Fake Bowser is not even mentioned by name in any English sources for ''Super Mario Run'' despite being in the game. So it is not particularly farfetched to think NoA took the opportunity to give the subject a name better than "fake Bowser," especially since it is the only one in ''Jamboree'' . (Which is not too dissimilar to the change from Big Wiggler to Mega Wiggler... in this same game). I guess I view it innocuously, and not particularly indicative of greater categorical intent, especially with the Japanese names being only different in syllabary. Not even pronunciation. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:47, October 16, 2024 (EDT) | | :::::::::::::I personally do not view it as a comparable situation, because "fake Bowser" has not been meaningfully conveyed to Western audiences as often as it has in Japan. There are not many original English sources for ''Super Mario Bros.'' or ''The Lost Levels'' that even mention this enemy, so the integration of the English name "fake Bowser" on Mario Portal is potentially because that is what we named our article - not because the translators at Nintendo of America critically thought that was the best term for the enemy. (Or at least that has always been my impression of the site, especially on pages for games like ''[https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/index.html Super Mario Land 2]''). Fake Bowser is not even mentioned by name in any English sources for ''Super Mario Run'' despite being in the game. So it is not particularly farfetched to think NoA took the opportunity to give the subject a name better than "fake Bowser," especially since it is the only one in ''Jamboree'' . (Which is not too dissimilar to the change from Big Wiggler to Mega Wiggler... in this same game). I guess I view it innocuously, and not particularly indicative of greater categorical intent, especially with the Japanese names being only different in syllabary. Not even pronunciation. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:47, October 16, 2024 (EDT) |
| ::::::::::::::We don't know the translators' thought process or the reason for their decisions, so that argument is just speculative guessing. I could say that they decided to reflect the slight Japanese name difference by giving it a slightly different name in English, and the argument would be just as valid. Also, suggesting that a perfectly valid name that had been used before for the enemy was actually taken from us feels like a stretch (while Mario Portal may have based some names off of the wiki, others, such as "Fake Bowser (Blue)", definitely weren't). And my understanding of "Big" vs. "Mega" is that it switches back and forth a lot in general, so it's not comparable. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:58, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I have touched base with fellow staff on this. For clarification, it is perfectly fine to have cancelled the proposal until the game's launch. I thought it was unnecessary, but it is not like it breaks any rules. That did not really bother me. | | :::I have touched base with fellow staff on this. For clarification, it is perfectly fine to have cancelled the proposal until the game's launch. I thought it was unnecessary, but it is not like it breaks any rules. That did not really bother me. |
| :::However, regardless of intent, the [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Fake_Bowser&diff=4397808&oldid=4397285 unilateral removal of all ''Jamboree'' information from the article (despite much of it being here since September)] after the cancellation of a proposal that would have in-part seen the same result is discourteous and circumvents the community consensus at the time of the proposal's cancellation. I assume Pizza Master meant well, and simply wants to see the material we are responsible for covered accurately. However, this was not appropriate behavior. It undermines the reasons why we have proposals, something that is essential to maintaining a healthy communal space, and it is not to be done again. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:20, October 15, 2024 (EDT) | | :::However, regardless of intent, the [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Fake_Bowser&diff=4397808&oldid=4397285 unilateral removal of all ''Jamboree'' information from the article (despite much of it being here since September)] after the cancellation of a proposal that would have in-part seen the same result is discourteous and circumvents the community consensus at the time of the proposal's cancellation. I assume Pizza Master meant well, and simply wants to see the material we are responsible for covered accurately. However, this was not appropriate behavior. It undermines the reasons why we have proposals, something that is essential to maintaining a healthy communal space, and it is not to be done again. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:20, October 15, 2024 (EDT) |
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| [[Bowser Clone]] is mostly referred to as Fake Bowser in other languages too so I don't think we can rely solely on foreign names when making the decision of what to do with Impostor Bowser. Additionally, a subsection of the "Names in other languages" of the [[Fake Bowser]] page going over foreign names for Impostor Bowser specifically strongly implies that Impostor Bowser is at the very least a variant of Fake Bowser. So I believe for the sake of simplicity and brevity, Impostor Bowser should receive their own article. Should I open up a proposal tomorrow for what to do with the character, I'll add a compromise option. That compromise option will be that the Impostor Bowser info currently on the Fake Bowser page will remain there, but that an Impostor Bowser article also gets created.--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 19:35, October 16, 2024 (EDT) | | [[Bowser Clone]] is mostly referred to as Fake Bowser in other languages too so I don't think we can rely solely on foreign names when making the decision of what to do with Impostor Bowser. Additionally, a subsection of the "Names in other languages" of the [[Fake Bowser]] page going over foreign names for Impostor Bowser specifically strongly implies that Impostor Bowser is at the very least a variant of Fake Bowser. So I believe for the sake of simplicity and brevity, Impostor Bowser should receive their own article. Should I open up a proposal tomorrow for what to do with the character, I'll add a compromise option. That compromise option will be that the Impostor Bowser info currently on the Fake Bowser page will remain there, but that an Impostor Bowser article also gets created.--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 19:35, October 16, 2024 (EDT) |
| :Not sure if that's the best example, considering there are also clones for [[Mario Clone|Mario]], [[Peach Clone|Peach]], [[Mallow Clone|Mallow]], and [[Geno Clone|Geno]]. It's not meant to be in reference to the Fake Bowser concept. Also, we have done multiple names in other subsections in the past (such as when an enemy changes names over time, which is likely the case here) - that is not a good reason to split an article. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 19:46, October 16, 2024 (EDT) | | :Not sure if that's the best example, considering there are also clones for [[Mario Clone|Mario]], [[Peach Clone|Peach]], [[Mallow Clone|Mallow]], and [[Geno Clone|Geno]]. It's not meant to be in reference to the Fake Bowser concept. Also, we have done multiple names in other subsections in the past (such as when an enemy changes names over time, such as likely the case here) - that is not a good reason to split an article. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 19:46, October 16, 2024 (EDT) |
| ::Nothing beyond our own speculation indicates that Jamboree was "meant to be in reference to the Fake Bowser concept" any more than Super Mario RPG. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:58, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::The clones in SMRPG are made by Belome eating party members. Impostor Bowser is made by transforming an existing enemy with magic. I think we can safely say that Impostor Bowser is much closer to Fake Bowser in concept. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:06, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::The clones' (old) second set of Japanese names and most of the (new) names in other languages also suggests it's probably coincidental. Also consider: Mario Clone and Shadow Mario. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:39, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Deciding what to do with Impostor Bowser ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|9-3-2-14|Do not split Impostor Bowser}}
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| ↑ Read my comments from the [[Talk:Impostor Bowser#Waiting til Jamboree|Waiting til Jamboree]] section of this page and my comments and reasoning from the prior proposal, [[Talk:Impostor Bowser#Split Impostor Bowser from Fake Bowser|Split Impostor Bowser from Fake Bowser]]. Also unlike other Fake Bowsers, Impostor Bowser doesn't revert back to being a generic enemy when defeated and is '''one enemy''' rather a species of enemies as previously mentioned by [[User:Hewer|Hewer]].
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Pizza Master}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': October 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support (Split in the same vein as [[Bowser's Brother]])===
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} Per my proposal.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per what I've said in the above two sections, this is a strange merge with too much guesswork involved for my liking, given the differences in name and appearance. The argument for the merge is that they're similar, which doesn't necessarily make them the same thing. Even if they did have fake Bowsers in mind when making this, it could still be a similar yet separate concept (like [[White Block]] and [[Grab Block]], [[Genie of the Lamp]] and [[Mushroom Genie]], or [[Princess (Paper Mario: Color Splash)|Princess]] and [[Princess (Paper Mario: The Origami King)|Princess]]), or just an individual member of the fake Bowser species.
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per Hewer. While the arguments against splitting are compelling, I still feel like this is a significant enough concept to be split, especially with Hewer's comparisons to the genies and Chain-Chomps.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Hewer.
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| #{{User|Rykitu}} Per Hewer. Jamboree looks like their giving Imposter Bowser more of a character-like role, in the sense that he's a character and not a member of a group of unnamed, unimportant members. Which the Fake Bowsers are.
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| #{{User|ReeceeYT}} Per Hewer.
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| #{{User|DrippingYellow}} I'm a little surprised nobody on either side seems to have brought up the very obvious visual differences - namely, Impostor Bowser is significantly larger (not merely in comparison to other games, mind you; Bowser himself is a playable character, and he is way smaller) and has an eerie purple aura. This is a little more than just another enemy turned into Bowser that happens to have a unique role (in other words: doesn't seem like they're "providing every signal" that Impostor Bowser is a generic fake Bowser).<br>The Japanese name might be the same, but if [[Shy Guy (Mario Party 4)|the]] [[Koopa Troopa (Mario Party 4)|generic]], [[Boo (Mario Party 4)|costume-wearing]] [[Goomba (Mario Party 4)|hosts]] in ''[[Mario Party 4]]'' are different enough to deserve an article, then this is moreso. There are yet more instances of somewhat similar subjects with the same Japanese name being split based on role and/or appearance ([[Froggy|Prince Froggy]] (sorry Doc), the various iterations of [[Poltergust]], [[Polterguy]], and [[Mega Star]] jump to mind).
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| #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Enough differences in my opinion. Per all.
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| #{{User|Salmancer}} This vote is technically meaningless, but secondary choice
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| ===Support (Split as variant of [[Fake Bowser]])===
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} Secondary choice.
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| #{{User|Salmancer}} New Name + New Appearance = usually a new thing. Also the comment from before on why this is an especially key appearance change. A Fake Bowser that can be distinguished on sight is a major change from a stock Fake Bowser. And if the Yoshi's Island bosses still being separate after all this time is anything to go by, then a name remix makes the case stronger.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Second option.
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| ===Compromise (Impostor Bowser info on [[Fake Bowser]] article stays there, but Impostor Bowser also receives an article)===
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} Tertiary choice.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I think this is a fine compromise.
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Reiterating my vote. To start with, their Japanese names (the language of origin) are virtually identical ({{ruby|にせクッパ|Nise Kuppa}} and {{ruby|ニセクッパ|Nise Kuppa}}) apart from the use of hiragana/katakana. Their origins are also borderline identical (one is a minion transformed into a copy of Bowser and the other is a minion transformed ''by Kamek'' into a copy of Bowser). And finally, their functions in their respective games are similar enough (to be in place of Bowser) for me to consider them the same subject. Tail Bowser gets a pass because it has a (significant enough) visual difference, a different name and a different ability (that being the use of the Super Leaf).
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| #{{User|Technetium}} Per LadySophie17. As for the point made about Impostor Bowser not reverting back to a Toady upon defeat, I feel like that's more due to gameplay differences between the 2D platformers and ''Mario Party''. It's almost like asking why Mario doesn't become Small Mario when he gets hit in an RPG. What matters here is that Impostor Bowser takes the role Bowser usually plays in ''Mario Party'' games, just as other Fake Bowsers take the role Bowser usually plays in 2D platformers.
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per all. I see no reason to split fake Bowser B from fake Bowser A when everything else is the same. I doubt the big Rocky Wrench in this game was a reference to them being resizable in the ''Maker'' games, yet we have them on the same page just fine. (Also, fake Bowsers in SMB didn't "revert to their true form on defeat," they only reverted if defeated with fireballs; using the axe, you'd never know.)
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| #{{User|Sparks}} Per all, especially LadySophie17.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per last time and the above discussion.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} All's I'm gonna add is that there was [[#False or fake Bowser|a discussion]] that involved another name - "Bowser Impostor". I think if that was the still the article title, things would be more straightforward. Anyway don't cancel again plz.
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| #{{User|Nintendo101}} per LadySophie17 and my comments in prior discussions on this page. ''Super Mario Party Jamboree'' has provided every signal that Imposter Bowser and fake Bowser are the same entity, and very likely have the same conceptual origin. It is overly cautious to suggest these are independent characters, and I also recommend moving the article's name to "Imposter Bowser."
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Now that the game's actually out and the similarities are far more apparent, sure, may as well.
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| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: '''OY'''.
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| #{{User|ExoRosalina}} Per all, but why is this extremely similar with fake and the impostor? They have a same entity or origin.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Arend}} [[Fake Bowser#Impostor Bowser|Very few languages]] actually use a different name for Impostor Bowser compared to the regular Fake Bowser name, and those that do use some form of "Impostor Bowser" all happen to be from America; Germany is the only outlier here with another unique name, but outside of that, it appears most languages call it the same thing as a fake Bowser from other titles. And there's the fact that it's another of Bowser's minions that's transformed into a fake Bowser, just like all the other fake Bowsers (first time it's a Toady, to be fair).
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per LadySophie17. Impostor Bowser is a fake Bowser. Also, for all we know, Impostor Bowser is just giving a new localized name to Fake Bowser besides just describing it as "a Bowser which is fake".
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| ===Comments===
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| Doesn't re-proposing this so soon go against [[MarioWiki:Proposals#Rules|rule 7]]? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:30, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :No, because the prior proposal was cancelled, so it didn't make a decision and this isn't technically overturning anything. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:07, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| I'm not sure I would consider Fake Bowsers to be a "species" in the typical sense, considering they're just transformations. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:24, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Doesn't really change the argument, the point is that there are evidently multiple "fake Bowser" individuals. Besides, this page uses the species infobox, classifies it as a variant of Bowser's species, and classifies [[Tail Bowser]] as a further variant. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:29, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| I'm also not sure what the difference between the second support option and the compromise option is. Take [[Super Blooper]], for instance. We still briefly discuss it on the main [[Big Blooper]] page and then link to the main article. The only thing that would change is that we'd remove the image of Impostor Bowser and the names in other languages subsection for it - we could keep the info we already have on the page as there isn't much there as is. So if we consider Impostor Bowser to be a specific Fake Bowser, there's not really a difference between the two voting options. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:31, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| I don't understand the second and third options here. The second option implies we'd treat Impostor Bowser as a species, which doesn't make sense since it's one individual, and the third option sounds like [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|pointlessly repeating the exact same information on multiple pages]]. I assume that Impostor Bowser would still be mentioned on the Fake Bowser page if it was split by the first option, just without fully covering it. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:35, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| @LinkTheLefty: I'd probably still support the split either way, but didn't Mario Portal have "Fake Bowser" more recently? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:45, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Didn't Nintendo101 already address that above? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:02, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I mean, even if it did come from the wiki (which I think is a stretch), why would that invalidate it? It's a valid English name anyway, not one we made up, and it was the one they decided to use, regardless of whether the wiki was part of that decision (which we have no way of knowing if it was). They obviously weren't just blindly copying the wiki or we wouldn't have Bomber Bill. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:13, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| Tail Bowser does not have different abilities from Bowser. The Tail is cosmetic to go with the game's visual theme, Bowser can swing his normal tail as an attack even in [[Super Mario 3D Land]]. It's just appearance and power-up involvement. I might be splitting hairs or misreading "ability" from Sophie's vote. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 13:47, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Admittedly, I have forgotten Bowser also does the tail swing normally. But still, given the explicit involvement of the Super Leaf in the transformation, and the Japanese name following the same format as other power up forms, I'd say the page deserves to remain split, at least in spirit. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 15:16, October 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::[[Tail Goomba]] (which has a page) is to Goomba what [[Tail Bowser]] is to Fake Bowser. It is a variant of a boss and it is not unreasonable for it to have its own page. I personally don't think it's the same situation. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:35, October 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| Why do we need to do this? Impostor Bowser is literally the same guy and trying to say he's an individual because of a different Japanese name is not going to change anything. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:52, October 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Salamancer: So, if your logic is new name + new appearance = new thing, then wouldn't that make Boomer Bills from LEGO Super Mario different from Banzai Bills despite being called Magnum Killers in the Japanese set? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:03, October 19, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Isn't everything in LEGO Super Mario ever so slightly "off-model" because of the physical needs that bricks have? I see a menacing open mouth, jagged teeth, eyes that are half closed and angled downward to suggest anger, no hands, and it's larger than Bullet Bill. The red back is probably a representation of the exhaust. Basically, it mostly works. A little fudging for the medium and the art style probably shouldn't be taken that way. At the same time, Imposter Bowser is in a game that isn't straying from base Mario, and it's less "redesign or retool" and more "drastic new visual element". [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:55, October 19, 2024 (EDT)
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| If this proposal fails, shouldn't this article be renamed "Impostor Bowser" because that is the most recent name? {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 11:52, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| {{@|DrippingYellow}} I personally did not find the visual changes to the character particularly profound. Bowser himself is always depicted at fluctuating scale, and the purple hue just seemed to be a way to visually convey that this character is different from the Bowser you play as. Neither detail, in my view at least, mean it is suppose to be different.
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| I also think there is some misunderstanding here — I do not think fake Bowsers are a generic subject. I think they are a very specific subject and one too unique to allude to by accident. One of the main reasons I am opposing is that I believe ''Jamboree'' has very deliberately signaled that Imposter Bowser is the same as the fake Bowsers from ''Super Mario Bros.'', and that is a very intentional homage. Ointment my view, to recognize its Imposter Bowser as something different from the original fake Bowsers would be misrepresentative of what the game is doing. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:12, October 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Real Bowser has appeared in every game fake Bowsers have appeared in, and to my knowledge they always had the same size and lacked a purple hue. Why does their motivation for adding the purple hue change that? That doesn't make it any less of a difference. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:59, October 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Maybe if this Imposter Bowser literally was purple, I would have second thoughts, but it is more so a magical-looking glowing overlay. This is not a particularly significant change in my eye, and I doubt it was added to convey it is an ontologically different boss from the fake Bowsers in the ''Super Mario'' platformers. That second point is why I provided a suggestion as to why they added the hue. I don't think it was done to signal that it is a different subject altogether, otherwise it would not be so subtle. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:38, October 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| @ThePowerPlayer: Mario Portal uses "Fake Bowser" as the name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:01, October 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Ah. I still think my reasoning of providing a new localization holds up slightly, given how much discussion Mario Portal has generated in [[Talk:Bull's-Eye Banzai#Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" for coverage in New Super Mario Bros. Wii|past proposals]] based on its reliability, or lack thereof. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 22:02, October 27, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Villian? ==
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| I know mario party games never had an antagonist, but don't you think imposter bowser is the game's antagonist? [[Special:Contributions/148.252.144.236|148.252.144.236]] 13:41, December 31, 2024 (EST)
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| == Split {{fake link|Impostor Bowser}} as a notable member from Fake Bowser ==
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| {{TPP}}
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| (previously discussed on the server's discord)
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| Yes, Impostor Bowser is a Fake Bowser, this is more than clear, however throughout the game he is treated constantly and consistently as a character instead of an enemy like Fake Bowser, we have 2 game modes around him and a complete story about him, this without counting the distinctions in names even in Japanese, where they mean the same thing as Fake Bowser and Impostor Bowser imply that it is not the real Bowser, I think that because of having a role as the main antagonist, being treated as unique, and having a great constant participation within the game, we should separate him but as a notable member, this obviously leaving information about him on the Fake Bowser page, because even though he is a different character, he is still a Fake Bowser.
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| Yes, there is a storyline in Mario Party where characters have merged with their respective species, but it's completely different!
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| First, these characters don't have a name that distinguishes them, and second, unlike Impostor Bowser, while they have a role, it's minimal and serves only as an NPC. Keep in mind that Impostor Bowser appears constantly in the game, has a creation story, and has more than two game modes dedicated entirely to him.
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| And the biggest difference that I personally see is that unlike Fake Bowsers that serve as a trap to make people believe they are Bowser, Impostor Bowser's main function is to completely replace Bowser, since Bowser is now playing, we are not talking about any fake bowser just for a trap, we are talking about the entire replacement of Bowser as an entity and enemy of Mario.
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| Furthermore, it's easy to understand that this isn't a name change, since Portal Mario uses Bomber Bill, a name derived from Mario Party Jamboree, but not Impostor Bowser, a name derived from the same game.
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| How would this benefit the wiki? It would benefit people like me and other users who find it odd to have a sudden name change for no apparent reason, and the fact that these individuals are together is unsettling and disconcerting.
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| I've seen the other proposals, and contrary to what you think, they don't aim for what I'm aiming for, since those proposals sought to divide Imposter Bowser as a species solely based on appearance or other minimal things.
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| Yes, the arguments are still the same, but this time they're refocused on something that hasn't been seen before. Thank you very much for reading this far. Choose your vote based on what you think.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Sorbetti}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': April 13, 2025, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Impostor Bowser Rise(Support)===
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| #{{User|Sorbetti}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per what I said in previous proposals. It's certainly a very similar concept to Fake Bowser, but if [[Princess (Paper Mario: Color Splash)|Princess]] and [[Princess (Paper Mario: The Origami King)|Princess]] can be split, so can these. I don't buy the idea of "Impostor Bowser" being a rename for Fake Bowser considering that the "Fake Bowser" name was used as recently as Mario Portal (the same site that introduced the name [[Bomber Bill]], which was first used in a game in Super Mario Party Jamboree).
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per Hewer, both before and now.
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| #{{User|Rykitu}} As a supporter of the previous proposal on this page, I am glad the split gets a second chance.
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| #{{User|Kirby the Formling}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} per all.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} per all.
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| ===Keep Merged(Oppose)===
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| #{{User|Nintendo101}} As conveyed in prior proposals tied to this topic, ''Super Mario Party Jamboree'' has relayed every message to convey that their Impostor Bowser is the same ontological entity from the original ''Super Mario Bros.'' and ''The Lost Levels'' in design, gameplay function, and name. Additionally, the ''Mario Party'' series has a long history of taking enemies and bosses from the mainline series of games and recontextualizing them as individual characters with stories, such as [[Klepto]] and [[Sushi]] in ''[[Mario Party Advance]]'' or the [[Little Mouser]] and [[Bandit]] from ''[[Mario Party 8]]''. I think ''Jamboree'' is of inflated focus because it is the most recent game in the series, so it is in front of a lot of people's faces at the moment. However, I do not think they did anything unique with Impostor Bowser in ''Jamboree'' as opposed to prior characters in the ''Mario Party'' series. I think to give this Impostor Bowser an article of its own would be misrepresentative of what the developers were likely going for in ''Jamboree'' and how we cover other ''Mario Party'' subjects on the site.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Nothing new has come up since the last proposal. <small>Impostor!</small>
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| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: He's called that in Japan and per Nintendo 101.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per Nintendo101. In ''Super Mario Bros.'', there's eight of them. In ''Jamboree'', there's only one. But that doesn't make it a different thing.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all, I still don't see why organizing it this way would be beneficial. I think the apparent distinctiveness here is also overblown, it's a slight name change in localization that still means the same thing and a few extra visual effects to emphasize the magical nature of the fake Bowsers. At this point, we have no way of knowing if it was meant to be a distinguishing characteristic for the ''Jamboree'' impostor or if it's just an adjustment in how Nintendo wants to portray the fake Bowsers moving forward. [[Maw-Ray|They're no strangers to redesigning and renaming a subject]].
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| #{{User|Arend}} I could repeat what I said in the previous proposal about splitting Impostor Bowser (which reasonings I still stand by, and still applies here), but I suppose this is ''slightly'' different as well, given that this proposal is also trying to define Impostor Bowser as "Fake Bowser (character)" rather than a different entity altogether, in which case I ''still'' would oppose this because the wiki has merged several "species the characters" into their respective regular species article (such as [[Birdo]], [[Lakitu]] and [[Boom Boom]]) for not being notable enough as characters, and we've had several "species the characters" that originate from ''Mario Party'' games merged with their respective species as well (most notably all those ''Mario Party Advance'' "characters"). Just because a species becomes a notable character in one game doesn't mean they're notable enough to get their own article.
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| #{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
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| #{{User|ILoveBFDI1215}} I kind of want it to be merged, I'm neutral on it, so maybe the page can stay together, which says a lot, though I don't have that much to say about it and this, which is really considering a lot. Imposter Bowser and Fake Bowser are both literally not the same character, though that still doesn't mean the pages cannot be merged, especially when you consider the fact that the page will stay exactly the way it is right now, as of the time that, I am writing the comment, ILoveBFDI1215, as the page would not be the same at all if it were to be removed, which is really considering a lot, and also the words that I say do mean something. In other words, Fake Bowser's page should also really indeed truly really actually indeed indeed superly goodly greatly awesomely amazingly cooly mustly needly goodly also really indeed truly stay in the same page. I think if the pages were to be merged, we'd need pages like Lakitu the Refree, all of the ''Mario Party Advance'', the Goomba and Shy Guy from ''Mario Party 4'' to be merged, the Koopa General from TSMB.M (''[[The Super Mario Bros. Movie]]''), would all have to be merged into their separate enemy pages as well. In fact, like I said before, Fake Bowser's own indeed very page must not be merged with Imposter Bowser's very indeed page. I am ILoveBFDI1215, and I am done putting stuff on here.
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| #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I think someone has impostor syndrome!
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| ===SuS Comments===
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| {{@|Nintendo101}}I think the same as you, but you have made a bad comparison, those NPCs and characters that you mentioned, although they have participation, it is none compared to that of Impostor Bowser who serves as the main antagonist, and they do not have a name that distinguishes them, unlike Impostor Bowser, Furthermore, it is only implied that he is a member of Fake Bowser, which is obvious and explicit, and in fact my proposal is not to separate him as a species, but as a notable member.
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| .[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 20:49, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I feel like those are subjective grounds. The characters in ''Super Mario Advance'' in particular have rather fleshed out subplots, regardless of whether they are antagonists. You visit the inside of their houses and such. Anyways, I think I relayed to you in one of your other proposals that I personally hold the language spoken by the people who created the games that are the focus of discussion over the ones who localize it. In this specific case, very few official English sources for the original ''Super Mario Bros.'' and ''The Lost Levels'' mentioned the "fake Bowser" bosses, so it is not reasonable to think the localizers took this opportunity to give this subject a better, more distinct name (being "Impostor Bowser"). Additionally, these names are nearly identical and mean the same thing anyways, so it is not a radical departure. So I do not see it is indicative of anything significant. I should stress, again, that this ''Jamboree'' character goes by the same exact name as the original ''Super Mario Bros.'' bosses in nearly every other language, including Japanese, which is the language spoken by the people who made them. The only difference is the syllabary. These are the same subjects, and I think it would misrepresent the game to consider this individual from ''Jamboree'' to be a notable member. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:59, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::I already explained that argument but I'll do it again, the fact that the Japanese name means the same thing, that is, a being that resembles Bowser is not the real Bowser, it is the same case of Fake and Impostor Bowser, which despite being different names mean the same thing, a being that resembles Bowser but is not.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 21:02, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::Then why incorporate the naming of "Impostor Bowser" as part of your argument in the first place if you do believe it is indicative of anything distinctive? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:27, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::::Although both names mean the same thing, Impostor Bowser goes more along the lines of impersonating Bowser, while Fake Bowser only replaces the original Bowser[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 21:39, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
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| @Support: So, what about the fact that the Japanese version still calls him Fake Bowser and as mentioned, says he's the same guy? And also, the two Princesses were split on the grounds that they had nothing to do with each other. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:24, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I already mentioned it in the argument above and in the discussion with Nintendo, but despite meaning the same thing it is still a unique name, just as impostor and fake bowser want to reach the same meaning which is a being that resembles bowser but is not the real one.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 08:36, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| :The pet Chain Chomp named Princess who must be baited with a bone has nothing to do with the pet Chain Chomp named Princess from the game's direct sequel who also must be baited with a bone? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:18, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| :: *nods head* Color Splash's Princess is completely different looking from Origami King's Princess and the Color Splash Princess is called "Ochibi-chan" in Japanese and the Origami King one is called "Ochibi" and the Origami King one is never stated to be the one from Color Splash in either version of the game. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:41, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::How is that different to the Impostor Bowser situation? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:49, April 3, 2025 (EDT)
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| {{@|LinkTheLefty}} Yes, there are new arguments. If you go to the proposals above, they were thinking of separating the imposter Bowser as a species. I do so as a character and notable member of the Fake Bowsers. In addition, my arguments and those given by Hewer had not been given previously.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 08:36, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| :We're still operating on the same information as before, yeah? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:39, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| {{@|Blinker}} In fact, yes, that's what the proposal is about, he is treated as a character, not as an enemy.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 10:57, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| {{@|Pizza Master}} {{@|FanOfYoshi}} {{@|DrippingYellow}} {{@|ReeceeYT}} {{@|Salmancer}} {{@|ThePowerPlayer}} {{@|Arend}} {{@|ExoRosalina}}
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| I have created a new proposal that may interest you, it was made of another proposal from the past, feel free to express your opinions and leave your vote.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 14:51, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| {{@|Waluigi Time}}It's not just the name, we're talking about a very large participation as the main antagonist and more than 2 game modes around him, a lot to be just another fake bowser, and in the same game he is treated as a unique entity, that's why I made the proposal.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 15:44, March 30, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::Just btw {{@|Sorbetti}} asking users to vote for your proposal is seen as discourteous behavior by the wiki as I was told on one of my proposals. [[User:Pizza Master|Pizza Master]] ([[User talk:Pizza Master|talk]])
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| :::Yes, I saw it that way, that's why before doing it I asked the in Discord to admins if it was possible, they told me yes as long as I didn't encourage anyone to choose anything[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 17:59, April 2, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::Also, i only called people who participated in the previous proposals to see the new one.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 13:03, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
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| {{@|ILoveBFDI1215}}: If you think the pages shouldn't be merged, why are you voting to keep them merged? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:26, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
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