Editing Talk:Cobrat

So, where does the picture come from? It's not in the manual. The manual looks more like the NES sprite in that it has a different body design (ie. not "wavey") and different pot. Is it from All-Stars? Maybe back from Doki Doki Panic? It looks old-ish. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 12:14, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

== Serpent ==

Are we sure that the Cobrats that appear in Mario Pinball Land and Mario Kart 7 aren't just generic snakes? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 15:44, 12 October 2016 (EDT)
:Questioned this too. Seems like something that's made up. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:22, 15 October 2016 (EDT)

== Snakes in Mario Kart 7 / Tour are just generic snakes, not Cobrats ==
Is that any source for the generic snakes in Shy Guy Bazar being Cobrats and not just generic Snakes? If they wanted them to be Cobrats, they would have colored them red and white like in official artwork, instead of generic green. --[[Special:Contributions/5.91.110.189|5.91.110.189]] 17:27, November 15, 2019 (EST)

:I agree. Those snakes from Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart Tour look completely different compared to the Cobrats from Super Mario Bros. 2, as do the jars the respective serpents hide in. Moreover, if they are indeed Cobrats, one would think Mario Kart Tour would've called the jars they're in "Cobrat jars" instead of "Snake jars". Like how the crabs are still referred to as "Sidesteppers".<br>Stuff like this ''needs'' a source. Does the Prima guide refer these snakes as Cobrats or something? Are we sure this isn't speculation from a wiki user? [[User:Arend|Arend]] ([[User talk:Arend|talk]]) 09:30, December 23, 2019 (EST)
::I agree that the Mario Kart information should be removed, but from what I see, the Mario Pinball snakes are clearly based on the SMB2 Cobrat sprites, in that they have the same upright posture and angry eye-pupils. The only difference is that they're green and not red.

::EDIT: My message is also a response to the conversation above this one, which considers the pinball snakes as different from Cobrats.
{{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 09:49, December 23, 2019 (EST)
:::I agree that the ''Pinball'' snake is assuredly Cobrat - it's the same design that comes out of jars modeled after the original ones, the only difference being that it's green and has a behavior difference in that it doesn't spit bullets (which probably just wasn't the plan for this type of game). The Japanese "Cobra" is an alternate name used for ''Super Mario USA'' material, based on the western name (note that the game is also western-developed). The ''Mario Kart'' Snake is odd in that it's green but otherwise a different design, and it comes out of similar jars ("Snake jars"). If it were an obstacle found in other courses then one can take it as a generic snake, but it's exclusive to Shy Guy Bazaar, which is chock full of references. If nothing else, I think the Snake should at least be mentioned here, despite not being explicitly Cobrat. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:40, December 24, 2019 (EST)
:::I see a [[Special:Diff/2900584|suggestion]] to use "Snake jar" as its own article. How about using the "main" template in the ''Mario Kart'' series section to direct to the article and mostly describing the sprite cameo in Shy Guy Bazaar here? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:40, March 10, 2020 (EDT)
::::The Mario Kart ones don't even look like them, they could be decorations of the level, and just a generic animal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:41, March 10, 2020 (EDT)
:::::I get that, but it's still taking the original Cobrat's schtick of hiding in a similar jar. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:46, March 10, 2020 (EDT)
::::::The whole snakes hiding in jars thing may be a reference to [[wikipedia:snake charming|snake charming]], in which the snake charmers often keep their snake in a basket or pot. While there's similarities with the snake jars and Cobrats in jars, the former does not ''have'' to be a direct reference to the latter. [[User:Arend|Arend]] ([[User talk:Arend|talk]]) 13:02, March 15, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::I get that too, and I understand that changing Cobrat's coloration to green in a previous game could, in fairness, be circumstantial. Here's the thing: if these snakes came out of different objects or appeared in a different course, I might be fully on board. The problem is twofold: first, the objects that these snakes come out of are clearly based on, and named after, the jars used by Cobrat. Second, the course that these snake jars appear in, in both appearances, is Shy Guy Bazaar. The theme of the course itself is a massive reference to ''Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic'', and among the sprites making a decorative cameo appearance is '''Cobrat'''. This tells me that the developers were aware of the original enemy when designing the course. Even if it's probably more of a replacement than a derivative, it doesn't hurt in the slightest to use a main template for the section. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:25, March 16, 2020 (EDT)

== Remove Mario Kart's snake jar info from the Cobrat article ==

{{TPP}}
On [[Special:Diff/1351192|November 8, 2012]], a user has added ''[[Mario Kart 7]]'' information on this page, stating that the snakes in the vases of [[3DS Shy Guy Bazaar|Shy Guy Bazaar]] are actually Cobrats, and this has just been widely accepted for years despite there being no evidence of them actually being Cobrats. In comes ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]'', which doesn't attempt to corroborate this claim and simply called the objects these snakes are hiding in "snake jars", differentiating them from regular empty jars, and still we keep the snake jar snakes on this page even after ''Tour'' content updates have ended.

[[#Snakes in Mario Kart 7 / Tour are just generic snakes, not Cobrats|We've had this conversation before five years ago]], but nothing has been done since. I think it's finally time to rectify this.

Really, the ONLY reasons why we still keep the snake jar info here is twofold: because both types of snake just so happen to hide in jars (being referred to as such as well), and because Shy Guy Bazaar has the whole ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]''/''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' theming going on, which is of course the one game Cobrats are known for.

But to me, these are rather superficial reasons.

Snake jar snakes hiding in jars is not something Cobrats have invented. Both are based on {{wp|snake charming}}, as it involves playing a {{wp|pungi}} to attract snakes and have them emerge from a basket, jar, pot, or vase. Snake charming is often practiced in Middle Eastern and Asian countries, and Shy Guy Bazaar happens to have that Arabian theming as well. Not to mention that since this other discussion, we've been introduced to [[Serpont]], another snake in a pot no doubt inspired by snake charming too. The whole snake charming thing has placed a symbiotic connection between snakes and pots/jars/vases in general. 

The second reason does have a bit more substance, admittedly, since YKDDP/SMB2 and the world of [[Subcon]] also have Arabian vibes, it's a Shy Guy course (Shy Guys debuted in YKDDP/SMB2), you have [[Flying Shy Guy|carpet-riding Shy Guys]] (flying carpets are also common in YKDDP/SMB2 thanks to [[Pidgit]], and the carpets in the Bazaar area do feature sprites of YKDDP/SMB2 enemies, including an actual Cobrat. Sounds like a slam dunk, right?

...here's the thing though: if these snake jar snakes were supposed to be Cobrats, not only would the snake jars be called "Cobrat jars", but the snakes themselves would actually resemble Cobrats, and the jars would actually resemble the YKDDP/SMB2 jars as well. But [[:File:MKT Jar Snake.png|here's]] what such a snake looks like, [[:File:MKT Jar.png|here's]] what its jar looks like, and [[:File:Cobrat SMB2.jpg|here's]] an artwork for Cobrat popping out of its jar for comparison. And you know what, have their [[:file:CobratL.gif|in-game]] [[:File:Vase SMB2 Sprite.png|appearances]], too. They look nothing alike, only bearing a slight resemblance at best. Compare that to the [[Angry Sun]] in [[DS Desert Hills]], which actually does look like the Angry Sun in ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'', and which course is based on [[Desert Land]] from the same game. If the snake jars in the YKDDP/SMB2-inspired course were supposed to be the same snakes and jars from YKDDP/SMB2, you'd think they'd resemble the YKDDP/SMB2 snakes and jars too, like how the SMB3-inspired course has an angry sun that looks just like the SMB3 one.

Not to mention that snake jars don't really act like Cobrats either: Cobrats pop out of jars like Piranha Plants and/or shuffle around on their own, spitting out bullets in either case. Snake jars don't do that: the jars themselves shuffle around, and when you drive into one, not only does the jar break, but multiple snakes come out at once. The snakes themselves are also just pure background fodder and totally harmless, unlike Cobrats.

All in all, I don't think these snake jar snakes have a place on this article, hence why I think it has to be removed altogether, or at least truncated to a single sentence. Our [[Jar]] article already covers snake jars, that information is more relevant there. The entire section doesn't have to be removed though, since actual Cobrats still make cameos on the carpets (although a texture showing the Cobrat sprite would be nice).

'''Proposer''': {{User|Arend}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 6, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Separate the Snakes (Support)===
#{{User|Arend}} Per proposssssssssal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us. The snakes don't look like Cobrats, they don't act like Cobrats, they aren't even treated like Cobrats... Really, the only thing they share with Cobrats is "associated with jars", and "being a snake".
#{{User|Blinker}} Viper proposal.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Camwoodsnake. if being a snake associated with jars is enough to count as a cobrat, does [[Serpont]] count too? :thinking:
#{{User|Mario}} s
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} I never agreed with the reasoning to keep MK on the article in the first place.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} snek
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Not all snakes in jars are Cobrats.

===Keep the Cobras Combined (Oppose)===

===Rattles and Rambles (Comments)===