Editing MarioWiki talk:Canonicity

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Final disclaimer, I grew up on the cartoons and genuinely love them still, so don't take this as an attack against them! [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 13:02, 18 January 2014 (EST)
Final disclaimer, I grew up on the cartoons and genuinely love them still, so don't take this as an attack against them! [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 13:02, 18 January 2014 (EST)


:Sections are in chronological order based on release date, not on importance, and the spin-off media ''have'' had impacts on the series as a whole (not to mention the fandom): to use an example once use against me, Bowser's crush on Peach originated in an anime and then appeared in a western comic - years before the games ran with the idea. The wiki makes no judgment calls about the relevancy different types of media because that's subjective and speculative: things contradict, yes, and we document that, but it's not ''our'' place to come out and say which one is the "right" story. We started moving away from our fanon-ridden attempts to link everything into a coherent timeline [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/11#Article_Organization_Standard|in 2008]], and we further revised that to not treat alternate media as second-class sources a couple months later [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/12#Revise_Article_Organization_Standard|in 2009]]. Obviously most people are going to look at the conflicting stories and decide that the video games are the version they're going to prescribe to, maybe even taking a step further and cherry-picking which games they care for, but that's ''their'' choice to make for their own personal headcanons. It is ''not'' our right to choose for them by selecting which sources the wiki as a whole should value more or less: that's skewing the information. Our job is to report the official facts, warts and all, and that's what we've been doing pretty well for years. Using everything we have at our disposal is a much more solid foundation for our articles than dismissing one thing or another and then having to go and defend those choices. The canon debate is a slippery slope, and the smartest thing for the wiki to do is keep its hands clean and not open that kettle of worms back up again; chronology debates on the pages lead to nothing but headaches. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:37, 18 January 2014 (EST)
:Sections are in chronological order based on release date, not on importance, and the spin-off media ''have'' had impacts on the series as a whole (not to mention the fandom): to use an example once use against me, Bowser's crush on Peach originated in an anime and then appeared in a western comic - years before the games ran with the idea. The wiki makes no judgment calls about the relevancy different types of media because that's subjective and speculative: things contradict, yes, and we document that, but it's not ''our'' place to come out and say which one is the "right" story. We started moving away from our fanon-ridden attempts to link everything into a coherent timeline [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_11#Article_Organization_Standard|in 2008]], and we further revised that to not treat alternate media as second-class sources a couple months later [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_12#Revise_Article_Organization_Standard|in 2009]]. Obviously most people are going to look at the conflicting stories and decide that the video games are the version they're going to prescribe to, maybe even taking a step further and cherry-picking which games they care for, but that's ''their'' choice to make for their own personal headcanons. It is ''not'' our right to choose for them by selecting which sources the wiki as a whole should value more or less: that's skewing the information. Our job is to report the official facts, warts and all, and that's what we've been doing pretty well for years. Using everything we have at our disposal is a much more solid foundation for our articles than dismissing one thing or another and then having to go and defend those choices. The canon debate is a slippery slope, and the smartest thing for the wiki to do is keep its hands clean and not open that kettle of worms back up again; chronology debates on the pages lead to nothing but headaches. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:37, 18 January 2014 (EST)


::Oh, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that the continuity arguments are pointless and not at all helpful, at least when discussing games that are not clear sequels (such as the Mario & Luigi games, which each make reference to the previous adventure but don't go much beyond that). And I can sort of see what you mean about the slippery slope in that respect, but I don't think having a two tier canon (ie: Nintendo published games and then everything else) really would detrimentally affect the wiki. As for Bowser's crush, I think, technically, this was hinted at simply by his constant kidnapping of her, I'm not sure the idea that this was mentioned in a manga before it appeared in a game really means they have a real impact on the series. Even with that said, just to use an example from the wiki I spend most my time at, the Zelda mangas have had Link turning into a wolf before it happened in Twilight Princess, for instance, and other things that seem to have possibly influenced the series, but we treat them with a lesser importance. It's not an entirely fair example as the Zelda series does actually have a timeline, but I kind of see the idea of a timeline as a separate issue from canonicity. As previously mentioned, claiming that Bowser's full name is King Bowser Koopa is not exactly true; this applies ONLY to the cartoons. Acting like it applies to everything else seems foolish. This also applies to the existence of a "real world" separate from the "Mushroom World".
::Oh, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that the continuity arguments are pointless and not at all helpful, at least when discussing games that are not clear sequels (such as the Mario & Luigi games, which each make reference to the previous adventure but don't go much beyond that). And I can sort of see what you mean about the slippery slope in that respect, but I don't think having a two tier canon (ie: Nintendo published games and then everything else) really would detrimentally affect the wiki. As for Bowser's crush, I think, technically, this was hinted at simply by his constant kidnapping of her, I'm not sure the idea that this was mentioned in a manga before it appeared in a game really means they have a real impact on the series. Even with that said, just to use an example from the wiki I spend most my time at, the Zelda mangas have had Link turning into a wolf before it happened in Twilight Princess, for instance, and other things that seem to have possibly influenced the series, but we treat them with a lesser importance. It's not an entirely fair example as the Zelda series does actually have a timeline, but I kind of see the idea of a timeline as a separate issue from canonicity. As previously mentioned, claiming that Bowser's full name is King Bowser Koopa is not exactly true; this applies ONLY to the cartoons. Acting like it applies to everything else seems foolish. This also applies to the existence of a "real world" separate from the "Mushroom World".
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The Mario RPGs exhibit more continuity, often referencing events from past games. These RPGs typically do not have significant input from Miyamoto and are developed by teams such as [[Square Enix|Square]], [[Intelligent Systems]], and  [[AlphaDream]]. In the Mario & Luigi series for example, [[Fawful]] is a minion in the first game, a miserable beggar hiding beneath Peach's castle in the second, and a newly-reformed main antagonist in the third. [[Paper Mario]] itself has [[Luigi's Diary]] make specific mention to the [[Mario Party]], [[Mario Tennis (series)|Mario Tennis]], and [[Mario Golf (series)|Mario Golf]] games. Additionally, the diary provides background setup for [[Luigi's Mansion]] and contributes to Luigi's future characterization as being cowardly and afraid of ghosts in later games. [[Lady Bow]], one of Mario's partners in Paper Mario and her butler [[Bootler]] reappear in [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]. Most of the inconsistencies are between the various sub-series (Mario shrinks when hit in the 2D platformers but loses health normally in the 3D ones and the RPGs), but often the subseries aren't even consistent with themselves: The area surrounding Peach's Castle in [[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]] looks almost nothing like it does in [[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time]]. [[Kylie Koopa]] from the latter game is a denizen of the past but appears in the present in [[Mario & Luigi: Dream Team|Mario & Luigi: Dream Team]] and doesn't appear to have aged a day. Mario in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door and [[Super Mario Galaxy|Super Mario Galaxy]] could breathe in outer space and move in 3D normally, but in [[Super Paper Mario]] he needs a space helmet and a special ability, respectively.  
The Mario RPGs exhibit more continuity, often referencing events from past games. These RPGs typically do not have significant input from Miyamoto and are developed by teams such as [[Square Enix|Square]], [[Intelligent Systems]], and  [[AlphaDream]]. In the Mario & Luigi series for example, [[Fawful]] is a minion in the first game, a miserable beggar hiding beneath Peach's castle in the second, and a newly-reformed main antagonist in the third. [[Paper Mario]] itself has [[Luigi's Diary]] make specific mention to the [[Mario Party]], [[Mario Tennis (series)|Mario Tennis]], and [[Mario Golf (series)|Mario Golf]] games. Additionally, the diary provides background setup for [[Luigi's Mansion]] and contributes to Luigi's future characterization as being cowardly and afraid of ghosts in later games. [[Lady Bow]], one of Mario's partners in Paper Mario and her butler [[Bootler]] reappear in [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]. Most of the inconsistencies are between the various sub-series (Mario shrinks when hit in the 2D platformers but loses health normally in the 3D ones and the RPGs), but often the subseries aren't even consistent with themselves: The area surrounding Peach's Castle in [[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]] looks almost nothing like it does in [[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time]]. [[Kylie Koopa]] from the latter game is a denizen of the past but appears in the present in [[Mario & Luigi: Dream Team|Mario & Luigi: Dream Team]] and doesn't appear to have aged a day. Mario in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door and [[Super Mario Galaxy|Super Mario Galaxy]] could breathe in outer space and move in 3D normally, but in [[Super Paper Mario]] he needs a space helmet and a special ability, respectively.  


The [[Donkey Kong (series)|Donkey Kong series]] shares a universe with the Mario series, and has elements of negative continuity, like the island where the Kong family lives changing its design across the games. However, the games have elements of continuity, like the SNES trilogy games sharing references, especially in the GBA remakes where more plot is featured in the main game. [[Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze]] features many continuity nods to [[Donkey Kong Country Returns]] and some to the SNES Trilogy. Furthermore, [[Wrinkly Kong]] dies beteen the events of [[Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!|Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!]] and [[Donkey Kong 64|Donkey Kong 64]] staying dead never being resurrected. There's even confusion regarding [[Cranky Kong]]'s identity, on whether he's even [[Donkey Kong]]'s grandfather or father. Matthew Fogel, the writer of the [[The Super Mario Bros. Movie]] went with the father.  Of course these games were developed by [[Rare Ltd.|Rare]] and [[Retro Studios]], and they lack Miyamoto's input.
The [[Donkey Kong (series)|Donkey Kong series]] shares a universe with the Mario series, and has elements of negative continuity, like the island where the Kong family lives changing its design across the games. However, the games have elements of continuity, like the SNES trilogy games sharing references, especially in the GBA remakes where more plot is featured in the main game. [[Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze]] features many continuity nods to [[Donkey Kong Country Returns]] and some to the SNES Trilogy. Furthermore, [[Wrinkly Kong]] dies beteen the events of [[Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!|Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!]] and [[Donkey Kong 64|Donkey Kong 64]] staying dead never being resurrected. There's even confusion regarding [[Cranky Kong]]'s identity, on whether he's even [[Donkey Kong]]'s grandfather or father. Matthew Fogel, the writer of the [[The Super Mario Bros. Movie]] went with the latter.  Of course these games were developed by [[Rare Ltd.|Rare]] and [[Retro Studios]], and they lack Miyamoto's input.


In [[Sonic]]'s case, there is a clear defined continuity because there is an official [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_canon Sonic canon]. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Flynn Ian Flynn] has used his podcast, the Bumblekast, to answer fan questions about anything, including questions regarding canon. Flynn, who has contributed to various Sonic media including comics, TV, and video games, has indeed acknowledged the existence of a canon for the Sonic series. Additionally, Sonic community manager, [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Katie_Chrzanowski Katie Chrzanowski], put out a statement on Twitter saying: "In the past few years, we've been looking at the entire universe of Sonic and how things tie together canonically for the future." "[[Sega]] put together a small team of us internally... we're working on making the universe and stories more meaningfully connected." You can read her full statement [https://twitter.com/KatieChrz/status/1591569833195606018?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1591569834760105984%7Ctwgr%5Eca5b2a587b65cd66a44fdbeeec4c4acb45e3d973%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurogamer.net%2Fsega-hiring-sonic-l here]. No spokesperson for Nintendo has ever made a statement like that.
In [[Sonic]]'s case, there is a clear defined continuity because there is an official [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_canon Sonic canon]. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Flynn Ian Flynn] has used his podcast, the Bumblekast, to answer fan questions about anything, including questions regarding canon. Flynn, who has contributed to various Sonic media including comics, TV, and video games, has indeed acknowledged the existence of a canon for the Sonic series. Additionally, Sonic community manager, [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Katie_Chrzanowski Katie Chrzanowski], put out a statement on Twitter saying: "In the past few years, we've been looking at the entire universe of Sonic and how things tie together canonically for the future." "[[Sega]] put together a small team of us internally... we're working on making the universe and stories more meaningfully connected." You can read her full statement [https://twitter.com/KatieChrz/status/1591569833195606018?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1591569834760105984%7Ctwgr%5Eca5b2a587b65cd66a44fdbeeec4c4acb45e3d973%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurogamer.net%2Fsega-hiring-sonic-l here]. No spokesperson for Nintendo has ever made a statement like that.


When discussing the continuity of the Mario series, Miyamoto himself has offered an interesting perspective. He likened the Mario cast to a troupe of actors playing various roles in different games. This view explains why, for instance, Mario can be portrayed as a medical doctor and Peach as a nurse in certain games. However, it's important to note that Miyamoto's perspective might not necessarily reflect the views of all developers involved in the Mario series. Depending on whom you ask, developers from different studios like AlphaDream, Artoon, Intelligent Systems, Rare, etc. might have varying opinions on the matter. Therefore, it's essential to recognize that while Miyamoto's explanation provides insight into the flexible nature of Mario's universe, it doesn't necessarily represent an official stance that every developer would agree upon. The interpretation of continuity in the Mario series can vary depending on individual perspectives and creative decisions within the development teams. Miyamoto doesn't acknowledge a canon for Mario or any other Nintendo developer, for that matter, and Nintendo hasn't forged a team of lore masters to keep track of Mario's continuity. So, is there a Mario canon? Nintendo has yet to issue any official statement regarding the existence of a Mario canon, and MarioWiki's policy remains unchanged due to the limited information available on the subject—specifically, the absence of an official statement from Nintendo. Given these circumstances, it is unlikely that either Nintendo or MarioWiki will modify their stance on canon in the foreseeable future. As a result, individuals interested in discussing a Mario canon with their family and friends may need to rely on their own interpretations or  [https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/headcanon/ headcanon]. Take a moment to envision yourself transported back to your childhood days. It's likely that at some point, you engaged in imaginative play with your friends and family members, whether on the playground, at school, or in the comfort of your home. Perhaps you assumed the roles of beloved Mario characters, embarking on fantastical adventures and made wholesome memories. Now, ask yourself this simple question, what is preventing you from reliving those moments as an adult? Embrace your imagination once more, Using your own headcanon to make sense of the Mario universe.  --{{User:KevinM/sig}} 13:22, February 16, 2024 (EST)
When discussing the continuity of the Mario series, Miyamoto himself has offered an interesting perspective. He likened the Mario cast to a troupe of actors playing various roles in different games. This view explains why, for instance, Mario can be portrayed as a medical doctor and Peach as a nurse in certain games. However, it's important to note that Miyamoto's perspective might not necessarily reflect the views of all developers involved in the Mario series. Depending on whom you ask, developers from different studios like AlphaDream, Artoon, Intelligent Systems, Rare, etc. might have varying opinions on the matter. Therefore, it's essential to recognize that while Miyamoto's explanation provides insight into the flexible nature of Mario's universe, it doesn't necessarily represent an official stance that every developer would agree upon. The interpretation of continuity in the Mario series can vary depending on individual perspectives and creative decisions within the development teams. Miyamoto doesn't acknowledge a canon for Mario or any other Nintendo developer, for that matter, and Nintendo hasn't forged a team of lore masters to keep track of Mario's continuity. So, is there a Mario canon? Nintendo has yet to issue any official statement regarding the existence of a Mario canon, and MarioWiki's policy remains unchanged due to the limited information available on the subject—specifically, the absence of an official statement from Nintendo. Given these circumstances, it is unlikely that either Nintendo or MarioWiki will modify their stance on canon in the foreseeable future. As a result, individuals interested in discussing a Mario canon with their family and friends may need to rely on their own interpretations or  [https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/headcanon/ headcanon]. --{{User:KevinM/sig}} 13:22, February 16, 2024 (EST)
:It's quite an interesting read but ''please'', break up your paragraphs. This was so hard to get through.{{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 16:04, February 16, 2024 (EST)
:It's quite an interesting read but ''please'', break up your paragraphs. This was so hard to get through.{{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 16:04, February 16, 2024 (EST)
::Thank you for your input. I hope it looks better for you :) --{{User:KevinM/sig}} 16:14, February 16, 2024 (EST)
::Thank you for your input. I hope it looks better for you :) --{{User:KevinM/sig}} 16:14, February 16, 2024 (EST)
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::::::::'''Canonical Product''': This refers to any officially recognized work within the fictional universe, such as novels, films, TV episodes, comics, or other media. Each of these products contributes to the overarching canon and helps shape the audience's understanding of the story and its characters.
::::::::'''Canonical Product''': This refers to any officially recognized work within the fictional universe, such as novels, films, TV episodes, comics, or other media. Each of these products contributes to the overarching canon and helps shape the audience's understanding of the story and its characters.


::::::::P.S. I've provided an answer concerning that tweet from an '''official''' source, i.e., '''''Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia''''' and gave my interpretation. However, please note that this is the '''Super Mario Wiki''', not the '''Super Sonic Wiki'''. For inquiries related to Sonic, I suggest visiting the [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Wiki_Zone Sonic Wiki Zone]. They have a dedicated [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Sonic_canon talk page] for the '''Sonic Canon''' article where you can ask your question regarding that tweet. Additionally, you may consider reaching out to [https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC Ian Flynn], [https://twitter.com/SpiritSonic Evan Stanley], [https://twitter.com/KatieChrz Katie Chrzanowski], and [https://twitter.com/tyson_hesse Tyson Hesse] on '''Twitter''', as they work for '''Sega''' and might have the answers you seek. Kind regards. --{{User:KevinM/sig}} 14:55, February 24, 2024 (EST)
::::::::P.S. I've provided an answer concerning that tweet from an '''official''' source, i.e., '''''Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia''''' and gave my interpretation. However, please note that this is the '''Super Mario Wiki''', not the '''Super Sonic Wiki'''. For inquiries related to Sonic, I suggest visiting the [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Wiki_Zone Sonic Wiki Zone]. They have a dedicated [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Sonic_canon talk page] for the '''Sonic Canon''' article where you can ask your question regarding that tweet. Additionally, you may consider reaching out to [https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC Ian Flynn], [https://twitter.com/SpiritSonic Evan Stanley], [https://twitter.com/KatieChrz Katie Chrzanowski], and [https://twitter.com/tyson_hesse Tyson Hesse] on '''Twitter''', as they work for '''Sega''' and might have the answers you seek. Kind regards. --{{User:KevinM/sig}}) 14:55, February 24, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::"'''Here's a breakdown of the statement''': "Something that's already canon can have a different meaning, or can further explain the canonicity of another canonical product.""... No comment. "'''Canonical Product''': This refers to any officially recognized work within the fictional universe, such as novels, films, TV episodes, comics, or other media. Each of these products contributes to the overarching canon and helps shape the audience's understanding of the story and its characters." True, but then what about contradictions within the canon? "P.S. I've provided an answer concerning that tweet from an '''official''' source, i.e., '''''Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia''''' and gave my interpretation." So there could be alternate interpretations of both that source and the tweet itself? That kinda muddles your argument. "However, please note that this is the '''Super Mario Wiki''', not the '''Super Sonic Wiki'''. For inquiries related to Sonic, I suggest visiting the [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Wiki_Zone Sonic Wiki Zone]. They have a dedicated [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Sonic_canon talk page] for the '''Sonic Canon''' article where you can ask your question regarding that tweet." One, fandom's blocked. Two, technically YOU brought up Sonic canon when talking about MARIO canon, I just did a reply, which started this whole thing. "Additionally, you may consider reaching out to [https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC Ian Flynn], [https://twitter.com/SpiritSonic Evan Stanley], [https://twitter.com/KatieChrz Katie Chrzanowski], and [https://twitter.com/tyson_hesse Tyson Hesse] on '''Twitter''', as they work for '''Sega''' and might have the answers you seek." Yeah, that website is blocked, do they have an email? I could send one via Gmail. That would, personally, be easier. "Kind regards." Kind regards back to you. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 07:43, February 26, 2024 (CST)
:::::::::"'''Here's a breakdown of the statement''': "Something that's already canon can have a different meaning, or can further explain the canonicity of another canonical product.""... No comment. "'''Canonical Product''': This refers to any officially recognized work within the fictional universe, such as novels, films, TV episodes, comics, or other media. Each of these products contributes to the overarching canon and helps shape the audience's understanding of the story and its characters." True, but then what about contradictions within the canon? "P.S. I've provided an answer concerning that tweet from an '''official''' source, i.e., '''''Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia''''' and gave my interpretation." So there could be alternate interpretations of both that source and the tweet itself? That kinda muddles your argument. "However, please note that this is the '''Super Mario Wiki''', not the '''Super Sonic Wiki'''. For inquiries related to Sonic, I suggest visiting the [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Wiki_Zone Sonic Wiki Zone]. They have a dedicated [https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Sonic_canon talk page] for the '''Sonic Canon''' article where you can ask your question regarding that tweet." One, fandom's blocked. Two, technically YOU brought up Sonic canon when talking about MARIO canon, I just did a reply, which started this whole thing. "Additionally, you may consider reaching out to [https://twitter.com/IanFlynnBKC Ian Flynn], [https://twitter.com/SpiritSonic Evan Stanley], [https://twitter.com/KatieChrz Katie Chrzanowski], and [https://twitter.com/tyson_hesse Tyson Hesse] on '''Twitter''', as they work for '''Sega''' and might have the answers you seek." Yeah, that website is blocked, do they have an email? I could send one via Gmail. That would, personally, be easier. "Kind regards." Kind regards back to you. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 07:43, February 26, 2024 (CST)
::::::::::Sorry to hear that both Fandom & Twitter blocked you. Ian Flynn has a podcast called [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHBS8k00Ip8YSO2M7w42RFQ Bumblekast] you can probably reach him through the gmail he has set up for his podcast show. Just click on the list of links on YouTube, scroll down to additional channel details, and its there. BTW, as I said above, individuals interested in discussing a Mario canon, or any canon for that matter, with their family and friends may need to rely on their own interpretations or  [https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/headcanon/ headcanon]. Now, this is for everyone reading this, as stated above, take a moment to envision yourself transported back to your childhood days. It's likely that at some point, you engaged in imaginative play with your friends and family members, whether on the playground, at school, or in the comfort of your home. Perhaps you assumed the roles of beloved Mario characters, embarking on fantastical adventures and made wholesome memories. Now, ask yourself this simple question, what is preventing you from reliving those moments as an adult? Embrace your imagination once more, Using your own headcanon to make sense of the Mario universe. I do not plan to discuss this any further. Good luck. I wish you all the Best! --{{User:KevinM/sig}} 15:47, February 26, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::Sorry to hear that both Fandom & Twitter blocked you. Ian Flynn has a podcast called [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHBS8k00Ip8YSO2M7w42RFQ Bumblekast] you can probably reach him through the gmail he has set up for his podcast show. Just click on the list of links on YouTube, scroll down to additional channel details, and its there. BTW, as I said above, individuals interested in discussing a Mario canon, or any canon for that matter, with their family and friends may need to rely on their own interpretations or  [https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/headcanon/ headcanon]. I do not plan to discuss this any further. I wish you the Best! --{{User:KevinM/sig}} 15:47, February 26, 2024 (EST)
 
 
==the Mario universe does have a canon, infact there is even a Mario multiverse!==
Note before opening: This was a very long - and controversial - debate that stemmed from a proposal to merge remakes to the main game list. I was a part of this topic, and some things here I regret, so if you don't want to look, you don't have to, but if you do I won't stop you. Anything dumb I said here that you see I apologize in advance. --SONIC123CDMANIA 12:03, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
 
{{closed|content=
I'll explain.
 
There are at least 8 different Mario universes in the Mario multiverse.
 
 
1. The Main Mario universe consists of at least the following games:
 
▪︎ Super Mario Bros.
▪︎ Super Mario Bros.
The Lost Levels
▪︎ Super Mario Bros. 2
▪︎ Super Mario Bros. 3
▪︎ Super Mario Land
▪︎ Super Mario World
▪︎ Super Mario Land 2:
6 Golden Coins
▪︎ Super Mario 64 (DS Remake)
▪︎ Luigi's Mansion (Remake)
▪︎ Super Mario Sunshine
▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (+ Bowser's Minions)
▪︎ Mario Kart DS
▪︎ Mario & Luigi:
Partners in Time
▪︎ Super Princess Peach
▪︎ New Super Mario Bros.
▪︎ Super Mario Galaxy
▪︎ Mario Party DS
▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (+ Bowser Jr.'s Journey)
▪︎ New Super Mario Bros. Wii
▪︎ Super Mario Galaxy 2
▪︎ Super Mario 3D Land
▪︎ Mario Party 9
▪︎ New Super Mario Bros. 2
▪︎ Captain Toad:
Treasure Tracker (DLC)
▪︎ New Super Mario Bros. U (Deluxe)
▪︎ New Super Luigi U
▪︎ Luigi's Mansion 2 (HD)
▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Dream Team
▪︎ Captain Toad:
Treasure Tracker (Wii U)
▪︎ Super Mario 3D World
▪︎ Mario Party: Island Tour
▪︎ Mario Party 10
▪︎ Mario & Luigi:
Paper Jam Bros.
▪︎ Super Mario Run
▪︎ Captain Toad:
Treasure Tracker (Nintendo 3DS/Nintendo Switch)
▪︎ Super Mario Odyssey
▪︎ Mario Tennis Aces
▪︎ Super Mario Party
▪︎ Super Mario Maker 2
▪︎ Luigi's Mansion 3
▪︎ Super Mario Bros. Wonder
 
 
2. The Paper Mario universe consists of at least the following games:
 
▪︎ Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Remake)
▪︎ Super Paper Mario
▪︎ Paper Mario: Sticker Star
▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam
▪︎ Paper Mario: Color Splash
▪︎ Paper Mario: The Origami King
 
 
3. The Mario + Rabbids universe consists of the following games:
 
▪︎ Mario + Rabbids:
Kingdom Battle
▪︎ Mario + Rabbids:
Sparks of Hope
 
 
4. The Super Smash Bros. (Toy/Trophy Mario) universe consists of the following games:
 
▪︎ Super Smash Bros.
▪︎ Super Smash Bros. Melee
▪︎ Super Smash Bros. Brawl
▪︎ Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U
▪︎ Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
 
 
5. The live action - Mario universe consists of at least the following movie:
 
▪︎ Super Mario Bros.
(live-action movie)
 
 
6. Animated series Mario universe consists of at least the following animated series:
 
▪︎ Super Mario Bros.
▪︎ Super Mario Bros. 3
▪︎ Super Mario World
 
 
7. Animated Mario Movie universe consists of the following movies:
 
▪︎ The Super Mario Bros. Movie
▪︎ Upcoming The Super Mario Bros. Movie Sequel
 
 
8. Comics Mario univers consits of most of those Mario comics
 
 
There could be even are few more Mario universes.
 
 
I think there should be extra pages for characters from each universes, for all the diffrent Marios, Peaches, Bowsers etc.
 
What do you think? Should we do that?
 
Let me know.
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 05:16, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
As many of us already have said during your proposals, we don't think this is a good idea.
*While some iterations of the characters are ''very'' different, some of them are practically unchanged from the mainline series. Mario as he appears in the ''Mario + Rabbids'' games, looks and acts the exact same as Mario as he appears in ''Super Mario 3D World'' or ''Super Mario Odyssey'', so there being a page for this guy would be redundant.
*The ''Legend of Zelda'' series ''canonically'' has shown many different looking and different acting incarnations of the same characters, and yet the Zelda Wiki does not split these characters up either. And these incarnations can look and act ''very'' different from each other. There's no reason for this wiki to do this differently, especially since most characters look and/or act the same.
**And I know you've said that we don't ''have'' to follow the example of the Zelda Wiki, but that doesn't mean we have to do the ''exact opposite'' of what they're doing either. We do what fits best for the wiki, and the way we're currently doing in regards of canonicity is just fine.
**Now I'll be fair here: Bulbapedia (the Pokémon wiki) does in fact split its human characters in several incarnations of the series (anime, manga, the Masters mobile game, etc), but like you said about the Zelda Wiki, we don't ''have'' to follow their example.
*Given the [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|Once and only once]] policy, having many pages on the same characters would also be difficult to keep track of. And when there is ''many'' interpretations of the same characters, perhaps up to twenty given that you've forgotten a variety of other incarnations (to be fair, some of them are Japan-exclusive and VERY obscure), it being hard to keep track of is basically guaranteed.
*Speaking of which, you've only listed one Comics universe, but of the top of my head, I can think of ''several'' (which may not even be all of them), and I don't know which one you're talking about here:
**There's the ''[[Super Mario Adventures]]'' comic that was initially published in Nintendo Power
**There's the ''[[Nintendo Comics System]]'', a series of comics published by [[Valiant Comics]].
**There's the [[Game Boy (comic)|Game Boy]] comics, a miniseries also published by Valiant Comics.
**There's the various comics from the German magazine [[Club Nintendo (German magazine)|Club Nintendo]] (unrelated tothe rewards program of the same name).
*Some of the details in your proposed timeline doesn't even make any sense. Why would ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker'' be listed ''twice'' when it's the exact same adventure (with the only thing being different is whether 3D World or Odyssey directly follows it)? And why would the DLC for the Switch version take place before ''either''? And I'm not sure adding in spinoff titles (particularly from ''Mario Kart'' and ''Mario Party'') is a wise idea either.
You can say that all of what you're saying is "heavily implied" or "semi-confirmed" as many times as you want, but to me, this all seems like baseless speculation. And we cannot have that on an objective wiki like this. {{User:Arend/sig}} 07:19, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:1. IS THIS "Mario + Rabbids Mario" RABBID MARIO OR NOT!?
 
:2. True.
 
:3. Yes, true on that.
 
:4. You missed Super Mario Kun, KC Deluxe, and the other Japanese Comics.
 
:5. I don't see a timeline.
 
:6. Why no Paper Mario OG in the "Paper Mario Universe"? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 08:54, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
 
@Arend:
 
So, the DLC of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker takes place before NSMB. U Deluxe, because they find the Super Crown here. I don't really know the comics. That's why I wrote just comics.
Another thing. I found an article where it's confirmed that Mario + Rabbids is a different universe.
 
https://www.gameshub.com/news/features/mario-rabbids-sparks-of-hope-interview-davide-soliani-combat-worlds-22770/
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 07:45, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:I hate to be blunt here, but after the debate about this in your proposal I think it's clear enough that no one on this wiki agrees with your statements about a canon timeline or universes and no one is going to agree with splitting all characters from all of these "universes". You can believe all this all you like but at this point general consensus is final and this wiki is not doing anything in regards to any of what you say. This debate has got to stop because it's you against everyone else and it's not going to go anywhere anymore. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 07:49, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
::I do not disagree with the notion of a multiverse on its own but i am against splitting counterparts from "different universes". --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:03, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:::Well, we had the 1990 live action movie's counterparts split, but now we don't. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 08:54, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
@NightwickedBowser, @FanofYoshi:
 
Another Option could be to just write one article about the canon timeline / The Mario Multiverse. Then on the other pages you could write something like the Paper Mario universe Version appears in that game.
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 08:18, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:No one agrees with your given timeline either, "no" means "no". {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 08:41, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
::I DON'T SEE A TIMELINE! [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 08:54, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:@Sonic123, the 1993 movie's counterparts were the only one i was ok with being split, since they were the only ones different enough from the game counterparts. But i digress. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:03, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
::Yeah, it was meant to be 1990's (cause 93 is in the 90's), but I wanted to clarify it also was live-action. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 12:05, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
Okay, look. If you're going to convince me of any of this "timeline" and "multiverse" idea, at the very least I need a citation — not a "strong implication", not a "semi-confirmation", a '''citation''' — that these various Mario continuities are not just various Mario continuities but are actually all connected through some sort of multiversal structure. We must remember that not all fiction automatically works that way, which I see people forget often..<br>I say this because if they're ''not'', if [[Paper Mario (character)]] from "the ''Paper Mario'' universe" is the only thing we're ever going to get... then what is the point in making the distinction? No character from "the ''Nintendo Comics System'' universe" is ever going to interact with a character from "the 2023 film universe" because, if there is no multiverse (and without a citation we have no reason to believe there is), neither of them exists within the context of each others' story.<br>And if these "universes" are never going to be contrasted, then there's no reason to treat them as separate entities. The differences between them are no different than the differences between games. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:26, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
 
 
@Ahemtoday:
 
 
▪︎ You know I have a few links here.
 
This confirms Super Smash Bros. characters are Toys based on the real characters (it's a different universe)
 
http://time.com/3747342/nintendo-ceo-satoru-iwata/
 
 
That confirms Mario + Rabbids is a seperate universe.
 
https://www.gameshub.com/news/features/mario-rabbids-sparks-of-hope-interview-davide-soliani-combat-worlds-22770/
 
For the normal/main Super Mario universe and the Paper Mario universe we have this.
 
https://www.nintendo.com/en-gb/Games/Nintendo-3DS-games/Mario-Luigi-Paper-Jam-Bros-1026143.html
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 18:56, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
You misunderstand my question. You have presented citations supporting that these stories are disconnected, but I've seen those already. If you are to convince me that this distinction is to be cared about at all, let alone to the degree you suggest, you first have to prove to me that they are '''connected''' as well beyond one poorly-received RPG. If there is no relationship between these universes, then there is no reason for the wiki to care about the differences between them, because they will never matter. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:34, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
 
@Ahemtoday:
 
If I'm being honest. The Super Smash Bros. and Mario + Rabbids universes are both inspired by the main Mario universe, so no they aren't directly connected.
 
The Paper Mario universe on the other hand is directly connected to the main Mario universe. As seen in Mario + Luigi: Paper Jam. The Paper Mario universe exists in a book, which is found in Princess Peach's Castle.
 
The events of Paper Mario: Sticker Star lead directly into Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, which than leads directly to Paper Mario: Color Splash. There The Paper Koopalings are introduced which was foreshadowed by the normal Koopalings in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam.
 
That's why I made the Proposal only about splitting the Mario universes and the Paper Mario universes and not the others as well.
 
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 21:56, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:Uhh, ok, but that WOULD lead to a weird precedent (which I thought had been set by the 1993 Live-Action Movie counterparts being split, but I thought wrong). [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 08:43, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
@SONIC123CDMANIA:
 
1. No, it's not Rabbid Mario. It's Mario from the Mario + Rabbids Universe.
 
2. Yeah I don't know all those Mario comics.
 
3. This is the timeline.
 
4. I don't know if the OG Paper Mario is in the Paper Mario universe.
 
There are 3 options:
 
A: It's in the Main Mario Universe
 
B: It's in the Paper Mario Universe
 
C: It's in both Universes
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 23:00, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:Ok. 1, weird. 2, MarioWiki covers the comics. 3, Honestly, mine is better. 4, That's tricky, because Paper Mario is referenced in TTYD & SPM, so it seems to be B, but it could be C. A is ruled out because of PM being referenced in TTYD & SPM. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 08:43, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
:With the recent edit bringing me back to this page, I just noticed that claim of yours. What possible reason is there to believe TTYD and SPM take place in a separate universe that is not also present for the original Paper Mario. This is nonsense. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:54, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
 
@SONIC123CDMANIA:
 
1. That's not weird. They are created in a wash mashine.
 
2. Yeah but I don't care about them. Someone else can edit those pages.
 
3. I don't even know what your headcanon timeline is? Can you tell me about it?
 
4. Ok. Than B or C.
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 15:49, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
 
@Ahemtoday:
 
It's not. The original Paper Mario was originally planned as SMRPG2, in Japan it's even called Mario's Story. The characters from that game also appear in Mario Party and Super Mario 64 DS.
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 15:49, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
:Then explain Bow's appearance and dialogue in Thousand-Year Door, and Lumpy's entire story. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:53, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
You guys are racking too many nerves debating with someone who, to put it in extremely mild terms, is not even willing to be persuaded. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:01, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
:Big Super Mario Fan will also not persuade us, therefore any more debating on both sides is pointless and is best to just end it right here and now. I already said the consensus is clear that the wiki is not doing anything that Big Super Mario Fan says with the sheer opposition there is. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 16:08, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
 
@NightwickedBowser:
 
 
- Who's Bow? And what's his appearance and dialogue in Thousand-Year Door? And who is Lumpy? And what's his entire story?
 
- You're not the king of england. The MarioWiki consits of many people. So you don't know Who's on my side and who isn't. I'm new here, working my ass off and would like to contribute fresh creative ideas to the MarioWiki. And that's the thanks for that. Then don't let new people in if you're incapable of criticism and don't know how to have proper, objective discussions.
 
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 19:14, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
 
@Koopa con Carne:
 
I'm willing to be persuaded. But your arguments suck. That's the harsh truth.
 
[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 19:17, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
}}
That's enough of this discussion. Disengage and don't bring this up again. {{User:Mario/sig}} 19:32, May 16, 2024 (EDT)

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