Talk:Lakitu (character)

Template:Tobedeleted Is this even necessary? He's a minor character with a very minor cameo in the Mario & Luigi games (and the unreleased Mario Kart 7) and all this information is on the page for generic Lakitus! Oh, and if this must stay, what about the Lakitu in BiS? Technickal 19:09, 26 November 2011 (EST)

In BiS the red-shelled Lakitu was replaced with a standard green-shelled one. -Four Paper Heroes 19:14, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I'm agreeing with the motion to delete this. The Mario & Luigi appearances are too short and generic to count for anything and being a PC in Mario Kart with a differently-coloured shell doesn' mean much if he still has a generic species name. Of course, if anyone disagre... --Glowsquid 19:54, 26 November 2011 (EST)

That's a silly reason. It's only concerned on the Red-shelled Lakitu, of course he is not the same as all the Lakitu species. I'm against the delete. You could've just change the infos of the Lakitu page.--Prince Ludwig 19:58, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I'm actually for its deletion. It's too minor a character in ML:PiT and ML:SS. And as Glowsquid said, the different colored shell doesn't make it any different from others. This is why Wiggler, though appearing in MK7 as well, doesn't have its own article for that appearance. --FREAK ~Game Freak~ OUT!

No difference? What makes you think that the Lakitu is actually the same as all the Lakitus? A red-shelled Lakitu who is now a racer and an ally of the Mario Bros.? And a green-shelled Lakitu who often appears as an enemy or plays the role of a Fishin' Lakitu in the Mario Kart series? Hm? Think about it. You can't say that as if a Lakitu could change his color just simply by painting it or something like that...Of course, he's a seperate character.--Prince Ludwig 20:04, 26 November 2011 (EST)

In PiT you can't see the red shell because the Lakitu's back is turned anyway! Mario Kart 7 hasn't even been released anywhere yet, so we should wait on that. Just because the shell is a different color doesn't mean it's a separate character (even if the shell is naturally that color). Do we have separate pages for green and red-shelled Koopa Troopas? (besides the shells?) Technickal 20:13, 26 November 2011 (EST)

There are other normal Lakitus that aren't hostile to Mario (mostly in SMRPG) and shell colour doesn't mean anything - Green and Red (and blue, and yellow, and flashing...)-shelled Koopas don't have separate pages despite being more different (due to AI behaviours) from each-other than this Lakitu is from other Lakitus. You're going to need a stronger case. --Glowsquid 20:15, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Listen Technickal, we are five days before the release of this game in Japan. Now is not the time being complaining about it. He is a seperate character. This article isn't about a species of red-shelled Lakitus. There were only one red-shelled Lakitu seen throught the series, this Lakitu. Don't compare him to Koopa Troopas because they are different, except that he's the same as Metal Mario.--Prince Ludwig 20:23, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Per GameFreak. It's too minor to have its own article. RandomYoshi^{(Talk • PMs • C)} 21:07, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Per Glowsquid. PikaSamus (talk)

It's five days early to be much more "Official" than minor. There lots of minor characters out there who got their own articles. Leave Lakitu out of this plz.--Prince Ludwig 22:18, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I agree with all the calls for deletion it's two minor Raven Effect (talk)

Why are you so impatient before the release of the game?--Prince Ludwig 22:22, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Also there is no confrimation that this Lakitu is the same one in all 3 games it could just be some random lakitu with a red shell Raven Effect (talk)

It may could be both pal, but no. You can't say it's random since there were only one red-shelled Lakitu. It's the same for Yoshi, considering some Green Yoshis, even Super Mario Sunshine's, to be him. And DON'T erase this article.--Prince Ludwig 22:33, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I am also all for deleting this article. Per all except Ludwig Jazama 22:39, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I don't think you are...You just don't like me. Tell me, why can't you at least wait for five days? Mario Kart 7 will be released soon. It's useless to delete or want to delete it.--Prince Ludwig 22:41, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Are you blind nobody wants to delete the article because the games not out yet Raven Effect (talk)

No. Because Lakitu's appearance will be more official in Mario Kart 7 and you keep saying that he's a minor character, or probably that he makes a minor appearance in the Mario & Luigi series. Are you blind that Mario Kart7's gonna be released in Japan in December 1, 2011?--Prince Ludwig 22:44, 26 November 2011 (EST)

That has nothing with my argument my argument is that there is no difference between this lakitu and a regular lakitu except the shell color and we don't have articles on red shelled koopa troopas nor do we have articles on the koopa troopas that appear in Mario Kart Raven Effect (talk)

There we go again...I just told them before you, there is only 1 red-shelled Lakitu, the character, that is. And the green-shelled Lakitu often appears as a Fishin' Lakitu in the Mario Kart series. Where else have you seen a red-shelled Lakitu besides Mario Kart 7 and the Mario & Luigi series anyway? No where else than these games dude. Maybe he acts the same, but the difference is his appearance and him being an ally of the Mario Bros.--Prince Ludwig 22:50, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Prove that they are the same characters. Prove that they aren't just a generic Lakitu with a red shell Raven Effect (talk)

(Do I really have to? *facepalm) Just 1 red-shelled Lakitu, not two or plus. We haven't seen another red-shelled Lakitu besides this Lakitu. If you are imagining or seen another one, tell me. Have you ever seen a green-shelled Lakitu who races in the Mario Kart series? He's not just a Lakitu, it shows him to be different. He doesn't have a clould when he drives his kart.--Prince Ludwig 23:00, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Delete This Page

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Wednesday, November 13, 2024, 04:30 GMT

As per the title. Seeing the argument above, how about we make an official proprosal.

Proposer: Jazama (talk)
Deadline: December 11, 2011 23:59 GMT.

Support

1. Jazama (talk) Like what everybody said, this "character" is too minor for his own article.
2. Raven Effect (talk) Per all the arguments given to delete this article
3. Glowsquid (talk) - per my reasoning above.
4. RandomYoshi (talk) — per me in the comments above this TPP.
5. Mario & Luigi (talk) Per Glowsquid's reasoning.
6. Bop1996 (talk) Per Glowsquid.
7. Nintendo64Fan (talk)Per Glowsquid.
8. Gamefreak75 (talk) Per my reasoning and Glowsquid's reasoning.
9. MarioMaster720 (talk) Per Glowsquid.
10. Donaldthescotishtwin (talk) Lakitu is Lakitu, only one article is needed.
11. MarioMaster2011 (talk) There are many minor characters on this wiki, but the Lakitu character has way too minor of a role.
12. Castle Toad (talk) Too minor, since there's no proof that this driver is the same Lakitu from M&L games (The red shell is not proof)
13. MrConcreteDonkey (talk) - Shell color isn't really enough to base it on to call this Lakitu a character. Also, the belief that the Lakitu(s) from both games is/are the same one(s). Per all. Oh, and the picture below definitely shows two red shelled Lakitus, so, therefore, there must be more than one.
14. IGGY7735 (talk) - just a generic Lakitu
15. Technickal (talk) Per all.
16. Knife (talk) – I'm opposing simply because of inconsistency issues. Lakitu is in the same category as other playable species like Boo, Blooper, Hammer Bro., and Shy Guy, none of which have their own character articles. What makes this one unique, a red shell? It's kind of silly to make an exception just because of one cosmetic difference. That ML series has no effect on the argument since there is no proof that both characters are the same (not to mention there were two red shell Lakitus as some point: see below image)
17. Dhock (talk) Per what Knife said. I was basically gonna say that, but he said it better.

Oppose

1. Prince Ludwig (talk) What the heck do you mean by "refuses to see sense", it's one of these supporters for deletion. It's useless to wait until December 2, 2011, since Mario Kart 7's gonna be released in Japan in December 1, within five days.
2. Tails777 (talk) Per Prince Ludwig. We have many minor character articles. What makes this one so different?
3. King Booranha (talk) Per Prince ludwig. He has appeard several times throughout the Mario series, and he is playable in Mario Kart 7. That should be a good enough reason. It doesn't matter if it's a minor character or not.
4. Toad85 (talk) If we delete this, we might as well delete every other one-off or extremely minor character we have an article for. Per all.
5. Lakituthequick (talk) I agree with Prince Ludwig, except for that Mario & Luigi series Lakitu, he can be like the one in Mario Party Advanced. In Mario Kart 7 he is a different character.
6. M&SG (talk) - We have separate articles for the character, Yoshi, along with the character, Toad. The red-shelled Lakitu is pretty much no different, especially if the guy gets used again.
7. New Super Yoshi (talk) This is about the one with the Red shell. Per all.
8. Baby Mario Bloops (talk) - Listen, Lakitu has his own page just like many other characters. You don't see the Yellow and Blue Toad's pages up for deletion. I don't see any of characters like Corporal Paraplonk or Master Crash being considered for deletion either. Just because they aren't named doesn't mean "oh they don't deserve a page, I hate you for not supporting its deletion."
9. FourPaperHeroes (talk) - Per this, per that, per all.
10. Magikrazy51 (talk) Deleting an article for a character just because he's a show-up-onceler of a certain species is uncalled for. What about all the show-up-onceler Toads in Paper Mario? They're not even playable! Per everyone. Together, we can end show-up-onceler discrimination.
11. yoshiyoshiyoshi (talk) I support the protection of red-shelled playable lakitus.
12. User:Fire-Luigi Per Prince Ludwig.
13. Mario4Ever (talk) Per Hideki Konno at 2:22-2:35 here.
14. Ultra Koopa (talk) He's a character, highlighted between other Lakitus and not a simple one.
15. ThePremiumYoshi (talk) Per everyone, especially Ultra Koopa. He's not a simple Lakitu, and since he's playable, we should keep his article!
16. Phoenixflare7 (talk)- Red Shelled Lakitu is a character, and even if he is a minor one he deserves a page.
17. Pseudo-dino (talk) Per all.
18. SuperYoshiBros (talk) Of course not. He's a racer on his own in Mario Kart 7, for pete sake!
19. Mr.C (talk) Per all, although I do think the Superstar Saga part should be removed.
20. Toad'ShyGuy (talk) We aslo have articles for Yoshi, Toad, Birdo ect, don't we? This is technically the same thing: One main character of a whole large group of its species. Humans are species too. We have even articles for those minor humans of the golf series.
21. KoopaKiller13 (talk) I'm changing my mind and opposing per (almost) all. Although, if this side wins, I'd like to request that we add separate articles about all playable enemies. I'm not saying to put them as characters, just playable, starting with this article.

Comments

File:2ndFawfulMLSS.jpg

TWO is better than one.

I just wanted to point out that you can see TWO red-shelled Lakitus in the scene before battling Fawful for the second time. This means that there is more than one red-shelled Lakitu. And it seems like generic Lakitus in the game have red shells. As for PiT, the back is turned so you can't see the color of the shell, so whether this is the red Lakitu or not is unknown. And in MK7, I pointed that out in my support vote. Technickal 18:01, 27 November 2011 (EST)

Huh? Even if that's true, the article is about the character, not the actual red-shelled Lakitu species. There had been Green Yoshis too, ya know...But to be sure, can you show it to me?--Prince Ludwig 18:47, 27 November 2011 (EST)

Thanks...But I can't see the red shells well...They look magenta to me.--Prince Ludwig 18:48, 27 November 2011 (EST)

If a red shelled Lakitu gets it's own page than why doesnt this Lakitu get it's own page

Lakitu in "Cloud Burst".

It has a different color shell but does it deserve its own page no because there are no special things about this lakitu just like how there are no special characteristics with this red shelled one other than a red shell Raven Effect (talk)

Go make this page then. But make sure that he's good enough to have his character article, and plus we don't know his name. Don't take it on my article, it's not like it delete it or something like that. This article is about the red-shelled Lakitu who is affiliated with Mario and is now a racer.--Prince Ludwig 19:03, 27 November 2011 (EST)

Using your logic bowser is now Mario's ally cause he's a racer and my example was to show that having a different color shell is not a big enough difference to justify creating a seperate page also you can't prove that the Red Shelled Lakitu from Superstar saga is the same as the one from Mario Kart 7 Raven Effect (talk)

That's what I was trying to do with the two Lakitus comment. Now that we know there is more than one red shelled Lakitu, we don't know if this is supposed to be the same guy or not. As for the magenta-ish shells, blame the low-quality screenshot. Technickal 19:12, 27 November 2011 (EST)

@Raven Effect: Huh? What I meant is that this Lakitu was an ally of Mario in Superstar Saga and is now a racer in Mario Kart 7. Bowser is different from Lakitu, but Lakitu would be the same as Yoshi and Donkey Kong if you consider him a different character than his other game appearance ('cause Yoshi is not the same Yoshi who toke care of the babies but is the Baby Yoshi from YIDS, Donkey Kong's article is about him and his younger grandfather who is known as Donkey Kong too). Whether he is or isn't the same, sorry, this article is still concerned about the red-shelled Lakitu character.--Prince Ludwig 19:18, 27 November 2011 (EST)

Yes, Yoshi from Yoshi's Island is the character Yoshi according to MP2's manual. Mario & Luigi

We're getting off topic here. Sigh... Technickal 20:08, 27 November 2011 (EST)

No, I'm not. If Yoshi in YI and Yoshi in MP, SMW, and other games are merged, so should these. Mario & Luigi

@Mario & Luigi: In thought, yes, but how you are stating it, that would be inconsistent. That is the main reason why we have Yoshi (character) and Yoshi (species). The Yoshi in YI, MP, SMW, and other games would simply merge to the character article. Games that include multiple yoshis would simply file into the species page. That lakitu we are talking about is a specific character, and not the species as a whole. It appearing in the M&L series and Mario Kart 7 should filter here, while the enemy that we see in all the other games should be found in the main species page. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

BMB, about your oppose vote; Lakitu only makes a minor cameo in M&L in the level up screen. The Lakitu in MK7 is just a generic lakitu, like Koopa Troopa or Wiggler. The only difference is the shell, it's just recolored to distinguish him from the Fishin' Lakitu referee. Master Crash and Corporal Paraplonk play a bigger role than that. They are actually interacting with Mario and Luigi in-game. Technickal 16:26, 28 November 2011 (EST)

@Tech: Yes, the Lakitu makes a minor cameo in M&L series. However, the information about the games - mostly Mario Kart 7 - prove that it is decent information to be its own article. Not only that, but the fact that a specific Lakitu appears as well as Lakitus holding the starting clock proves something. Just because Lakitu doesn't have a generic name, that doesn't mean that he should have a page. I haven't seen Toad (character) or Yoshi (character) have a specific name. With the logic that all you supporters are giving, Toad, Yoshi, and many others should be nominated for deletion. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

The thing is, if we keep this page, will we have to make a page for the Wiggler in Mario Power Tennis, Mario Super Sluggers and Mario Kart 7? In those games, the Wiggler has gloves rather than shoes on his frontmost legs. This is so he can hold a racket or a bat or whatever else he needs to do. This distinguishes him from other Wigglers. Same case, different enemy. Magikrazy51 (talk)

Exactly Magikrazy51. Any character that is specifically different from the rest of its species will be eligible to be created. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

I'm O.K with the deletion of Lakitu, but I think we should bring him back once Mario Kart 7 is realased in all regions. If not, then we should just merge him with the Lakitu (species) page in the Mario Kart (series) section--MarioMaster2011 19:20, 30 November 2011 (EST)MarioMaster2011

No, that's silly. 'Cause that's the same as deleting him. It's already okay once Mario Kart 7 is released in one region, I thought I already told you. Deleting him because Mario Kart 7 is not released in all regions is already usless.--Prince Ludwig 23:05, 30 November 2011 (EST)

It's alright. I've changed my mind anyway (See support), so I'm not Netural anymore. Besides, I didn't view any of your comments yet. Anyways, Lakitushould be deleted. Yes there is a lot of minor characters on this wiki, but this guy hardly even appears in M&L:SS and he's a Fishin' Lakitu anyway, like you said. In Mario Kart 7, however he is a playable character, but Nintendo probably put him in there as a replacement for the real Lakitu, because he already counts 3,2,1...Go! at the begining of each race. --MarioMaster2011 11:59, 2 December 2011 (EST)

Stating that "oh...he's too minor," is missing the big picture on this wiki. Many characters - and enemies - have appeared in one, maybe two games. Queen Bee, another character, has only appeared in the Super Mario Galaxy games and Mario Kart 7. Multiple enemies that appear in the Paper Mario games have never been seen outside them. All of them have pages of their own; with the enemies, they could also be considered eligible to be merged with their main species. Just note that this Lakitu Character has also appeared in the other Mario Kart games, as stated by the video that Mario4Ever posted in his comment. So...arguing that he is too minor is basically a matter of opinion and not factual information. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Don't forget there is already a green-shelled Fishin' Lakitu. Despite that, it's impossible for Lakitu to be the same Fishin' Lakitu since he's red-shelled, like Metal Mario is supposed to be a seperate character from the alternate form since Super Smash Bros. and he's sometimes protrayed as Mario himself. Now he's no more minor as you think he is you supporters for deletion and Mario Kart 7 has already been released.--Prince Ludwig 01:34, 3 December 2011 (EST)

Might I add something on this discussion? We have an article for many of the minor Toads in the Paper Mario series who play an even more minor role in the game. This Lakitu on the other hand, is a playable character and plays a slightly bigger role than the Toads of PM. And this Lakitu is clearly more different than the other Lakitu that also appears in the game in terms of the role they play. The green shelled one picks up the racer after he/she falls and starts a race while the red shell one actually races. Including the info on Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, there is enough information for it's own page. Tails777 (talk)

@Knife: Instead of being jealous, why won't you make the articles instead of going against my article? It's not like it delete them, sent the admins to delete these articles or prevent users making articles.--Prince Ludwig 16:59, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Why are you accusing me of jealous? Also, no one can claim ownership of any article. I don't understand your second sentence (actually I don't understand your whole comment, you may have to clarify it a little more).--Knife (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2011 (EST)

No one but I, you're right... But I'm not bossing around, truth is, I don't want my article to be deleted or messed up in the way I obviously don't expect.--Prince Ludwig 17:21, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Nearly anyone can change articles on a wiki, Prince Ludwig. That's what it's for. Technickal 20:34, 8 December 2011 (EST)

If this article stays, there will be a huge inconsistency in species/character articles. As I mentioned above, specie character generally don't have their own articles. So if this proposal fails, we at least need to consider splitting those articles otherwise our character species consistency is a mess.--Knife (talk) 14:08, 10 December 2011 (EST)

Lakitu in Superstar sage

There is absolutely no evidence that even remotely suggests that they are the same the only link they have is a red shell and that means nothing because generic lakitus have red shells to Raven Effect (talk)

...If Lakitu has a red-shell, it does mean something. What do you mean "mean nothing"?--Prince Ludwig 16:47, 8 December 2011 (EST)

It means nothing because other Lakitus have red shells thus disproving that these two are the same because they have red shells Raven Effect (talk)

It's also because of that...literally. Yoshi is the same Green Yoshi who's the best friend of Mario because he is a Green Yoshi like other Green Yoshis. Similar, huh? It's also because the red-shelled Lakitu is an ally and no more a Fishin' Lakitu, that's for sure.--Prince Ludwig 17:12, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Hey little known fact all that is confirmed in the various guide books and bios of the various mario games while this is not Raven Effect (talk)

You think I didn't know that? I said it's similar; since one of you consider Red-shelled Lakitu as a species and a different character from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga.--Prince Ludwig 17:16, 8 December 2011 (EST)

So that whole Yoshi thing has no relevance to this article because unlike this article their is confirmation that the Yoshi's are the same Raven Effect (talk)

There was a Star child Yoshi and a Green Yoshi who toke care of the Star Children. Like Yoshi and Donkey Kong, Lakitu's character article must be about the Red-shelled Lakitu from Mario & Luigi and Mario Kart, which are the same character.--Prince Ludwig 17:24, 8 December 2011 (EST)

So your argument is that because the Lakitu in Superstar Saga has a red shell and the one in Mario Kart 7 has a red shell than they must be the same A.K.A Speculation Raven Effect (talk)

Lakitu's Red-shell means nothing A.K.A Speculation. Right back at ya.--Prince Ludwig 17:32, 8 December 2011 (EST)

No i can prove it means nothing there are other Lakitus with Red shells including a picture that shows two at the same time so unless you are willing to argue that all Red Shelled Lakitus are the same person your argument means nothing Raven Effect (talk)

Hey guys, it's clear you're not getting anywhere arguing back and forth. I suggest one of you make a TPP to settle this issue instead of wasting your time arguing when neither will change their minds. Although you might want to wait until the proposal above is finished, which could change things.--Knife (talk) 17:35, 8 December 2011 (EST)

'Aight. Okay.--Prince Ludwig 17:37, 8 December 2011 (EST)

I agree also, on a side note to Raven Effect, I think a similar TPP action should be done for Rocky Wrench. -Four Paper Heroes 17:38, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Remove Superstar Saga information

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Wednesday, November 13, 2024, 04:30 GMT

Well, let's see who else thinks the SS and MK7 red Lakitus are the same guy or not. (This can be deleted if the article ends up being deleted.)

Proposer: Technickal (talk)
Deadline: December 22, 2011, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Technickal (talk) Per Raven Effect's above comment
2. Raven Effect (talk) Their is no evidence to suggest that they are the same and having a red shell =/= being the same character
3. Mariomario64 (talk) – Per above.
4. RandomYoshi (talk) — Per Raven Effect. Just becuase that Lakitu has a red shell doesn't mean that it indeed is this Lakitu(who we aren't sure about if it's a separate character either...).
5. Toad'ShyGuy (talk) It's just too typical. Per everyone above.
6. ThePremiumYoshi (talk) - It's rather improbable these two Lakitus are the same. Per all.
7. Tails777 (talk) After a debate with Raven Effect, I now reluctantly agree. Per all.

Comments

Sorry to bother you Technickal, but you need to add this proposal to the list. -Four Paper Heroes 20:04, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Four Paper Heroes, what exactly should be done with Rocky Wrench? Technickal 20:28, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Probably mentioned before, but we don't know if they are the same or not. But since they are both red shelled Lakitu's, they may as well stay in the same article. And no we shouldn't remove the Superstar Saga info because it is on a red shell Lakitu who give the bonus for the Bros, that should be notable enough (despite being a small role). Tails777 (talk)

But their are other Lakitus with red shells and saying that one Lakitu who has a red shell is the same as another Lakitu with a red shell is speculation Raven Effect (talk)

This should have waited until the above TPP was settled. The article's deletion still rides, and if it does end up being deleted, then this TPP will serve no purpose whatsoever. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Chill out BMB, this can easily be deleted. Technickal 20:27, 8 December 2011 (EST)

@Raven Effect Others eh? Aside from the 2 we have already mentioned (MK7, and M&L:SS) what other ones are there? Tails777 (talk)

These ones that are up above in the comments section of the last proposal you know the ones with the red shells http://www.mariowiki.com/File:2ndFawfulMLSS.jpg Raven Effect (talk)

O.K. I'll admit you have me pinned on this one, but I still don't support deleting the article or the section of information. This Lakitu to me is a notable Lakitu (since it is clearly different from the green Lakitu) and should have it's own article. Tails777 (talk)

But the question is can you prove that these two Lakitus are the same Raven Effect (talk)

No I can't, but since they are both red shelled Lakitus, they should stay on the same page (regardless of if they are the same or not.) Tails777 (talk)

So even though this is an article on a specific character it's ok to include information on another character because it has a red shell A.K.A implying they are the same A.K.A speculation Raven Effect (talk)

Fine, you got me. You are right about it being speculation and I know (I think) that we don't include speculation on articles. Tails777 (talk)

Geez...you actually gave up.--Prince Ludwig 17:14, 10 December 2011 (EST)

Yes cause I couldn't continue to argue without a reason. He had me to the point I couldn't say anything in defense. Tails777 (talk)

We should probably just mention the red-shelled Lakitu from M&L Superstar Saga in the trivia section, they are most likely not the same but it is worth a little noting. -Four Paper Heroes 19:50, 10 December 2011 (EST)