MarioWiki:Proposals
A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{user|User name}}. Signing with the signature code ~~~(~) is not allowed due to technical issues. How To
The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours. New FeaturesNone at the moment. Removals"Relationship with other characters" sectionsMost (All?) of our articles about major characters have sections detailing how they interacts with other major characters, I could do a tl:dr rant explaining why these sections irks me, but I will be short here:
In short, Relationships Sections are an embarrassing poorly-written mess of informations rehashed from the Biography. Let's kill them, WITH FIRE. Proposer: Blitzwing (talk) Slash 'Em
Keep 'Em
CommentsWhile most of these sections I run across seem to be poorly-written, speculative, and sometimes way too extended (I hear rumors there was a Diddy Kong entry in the Mario relationships section?), that does not mean they cannot (in the future) be well-written, informative, and kept to a close circle of important character relationships. It could be a great place to provide all the official connections between two specific characters. For example, the Princess Peach section in the Mario article does a decent job of listing all those comments made by Nintendo about their ambiguous relationship. I found it to be very helpful, and I would not want that information to suddenly disappear. If it could just listed under a general "Relationships" section (instead of one sub-divided into many sections about individual characters) we could focus on a few key relationships - relationships Nintendo has provided a lot of commentary on, such as the Mario-Peach relationship, as opposed to the Mario-Rosalina relationship listed in the article, which is basically a plot summary of Super Mario Galaxy, but doesn't tell us anything about their relationship. So basically, I don't think we should completely delete these sections, but find a way to highlight those specific relationships Nintendo has actually offered commentary on. -- Son of Suns (talk)
After additional thought and EBAL PEER PRESSURE I have come to the conclusion I do not clearly support either position and will thusly abstain from voting. Snack (talk) Splits & MergesNone at the moment. ChangesReplace the current Importance PolicyThis proposal would replace the current Importance Policy with a less hierarchical, more inclusive policy based on MarioWiki: Canonicity. The proposed new policy can be found here: New Importance Policy. This would serve as the basis for the new policy and could be revised as necessary. As you can tell, the current Importance Policy is extremely convoluted, as we are trying to base our wiki on levels of connections between series, which itself is a highly speculative act. Based on the chart, series such as Mario Kart may actually be of "secondary" importance, as it is a spin-off of the main Mario series, while WarioWare would be of "tertiary" importance, as it is a spin-off of a spin-off (Mario series to Wario Land series to WarioWare series), and the new Pyoro series would be of "quaternary" importance, as it would be a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off. As you can tell, this gets extremely subjective based on your own personal point of view. We should have a more flexible policy that does not establish superficial "levels" or "ranks" of importance. Just as there is no recognized canon, we should not have a hierarchy of supposed importance. Instead this new policy establishes what is and what is not allowed based on all official sources approved by Nintendo, and also allows for "less connected" subjects to be merged, organized, etc. as deemed necessary by the community. Ultimately I feel this new policy makes more logical sense than our old policy. Proposer: Son of Suns (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsPerhaps I am mistaken, but I believe that this proposal breaks one of the rules for proposals. Your New Importance Policy says "...we cover all franchises, series, games, etc. that have emerged from or spun-off from the original Donkey Kong arcade game, Mario's first appearance in any media. This includes all Nintendo-authorized video games about Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario, Yoshi, Banjo, Conker...." The last rule for proposals says "...no proposals calling for the creation of Banjo, Conker, or Sonic series articles are allowed..." So, doesn't this need to be changed? White Knight (talk)
Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me. I will still have to think my vote over for a bit though. White Knight (talk) I would like suggest that the Importance Policy should be moved to MarioWiki:Coverage if this passes since the phrase "Importance Policy" seems to call upon classes and rankings, and coverage implies more of classless, equal information (which is what we're going for here). Daniel Webster (talk) 12:40, 23 December 2008 (EST)
Actually we already have articles about the Banjo (series) and the Conker (series), which is the minimum requirement that can be allowed under the new MarioWiki: Canonicity (which was re-written after the former proposals passed). Any content from an officially licensed Nintendo game (Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Banjo-Pilot, Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge, Conker's Pocket Tales, and Conker's Bad Fur Day) is allowed, but not content from Conker: Live & Reloaded and Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts - those would count as unofficial appearances, but would be notable enough for some mention in a trivia section or a summary at the end of the series articles or something like that. And this proposal would not explicitly allow the mass creation of Banjo and Conker articles. We can add as much official content to the wiki, but that does not mean the creation of articles. So if this passes, separating the merged Banjo series and Conker series may require a seperate proposal, or a discussion on their respective talk pages. This proposal only reinforces that such content is allowed, but not the form it takes (i.e. merged series article vs. individual articles), as the last section in the new policy discusses. Basically, content is okay, but whether everything in the series gets individual articles, categories and templates is a matter that will have to be resolved later. At the very minimum we would have the general series page with individual entries on characters, items, etc. -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. And yes, "Coverage" is a better term than "Importance Policy."
Son of Suns: there's a couple holes in your argument against the Importance Policy Chart. As explained in the text of the Importance Policy Page, "Mario" meant everything that had "Mario" in the title (including Mario Kart, etc.,) not just the mainstream Mario titles; it also infers WarioWare is covered under Wario, so in that case, Pyoro would still be a tertiary game. I'd also like to point out something that no one (to my knowledge) has addressed: Banjo and Conker aren't from a "Donkey Kong" title, but from Diddy Kong Racing; so by your argument, they'd be quaternary, just like Pyoro (though I'm still siding with the Importance Page and saying they're tertiary, and Diddy Kong Racing secondary). However, I totally agree that the "Importance Levels" are a bad way to try and organize the Wiki (I especially don't like how the crossovers are quaternary, as they are at least as important at the spin-spin-offs (Banjo, et al.), in my opinion). I think this would be a better way to go about things, but I also think the Banjo, Conker and Pyoro aspect should be clarified a bit more. The aforementioned chart had much to be desired, but the nebulous nature of this new policy means it is wide open to interpretation, which we do not want; if we're going to enact a new policy, we should know exactly what will happen and what will or will not be created. I'm all for series pages and Banjo, Conker and Pyoro content therein, but this opens a back-door to creating individual articles down the road - something I'm against. My reasoning, and my own suggested "Coverage Chart" can be seen here. There are no levels of importance, but Banjo, Conker and Pyoro are allotted less coverage on the grounds that they aren't as interconnected with the other Mario series. I also discuss an enhanced coverage of crossovers, but I am fine with your own suggested method - my only beef is with the uncertain future of Banjo, Conker and Pyoro content. - Walkazo (talk)
I feel we (or at least I) do want interpretation. I do want flexibility. I do want the ability to change the wiki as needed by the community without recreating policies every couple months. The problem with a few past proposals and policies is that they dictate a certain way articles must be created/organized based on random criteria. This proposal is more flexible in order to accomodate the needs of the changing community. This proposal would only reinforce the Banjo and Conker series pages - if a majority of users would later want to create individual articles, so be it. That should not be denied because you personally feel they should not be created. The matter should be subject to a democratic vote, not a dictatorial policy. As we have not had any proposals on Pyoro, as many articles about that mini-series can be created, unless the communty decides otherwise. Perhaps they will be merged on day. Perhaps not. Perhaps Banjo will be unmerged and Conker will stay merged. I feel it should be for the wiki to decide on an individual basis, not based on a strict policy, which leads to assuming certain series are more important than others (which your Coverage Chart does on some level by placing series under other series and thus should not have more artcles - it is very similar to the current speculative Importance Policy). The decision for article creation should not be part of an official policy, but community decision (based on proposals, talk pages, etc.). Personally I feel Banjo and Conker should have more articles than WarioWare, because there are clear geographic and historical links between Donkey Kong, Banjo, Conker, Diddy Kong, Squawks, and Mario; the same can not be said for WarioWare (besides Wario). Banjo and Conker are more interconnected with the greater Mario franchise than WarioWare, and thus should have as many articles or more than the WarioWare series. But that's my personal opinion, and should not be reflected in an official policy, just as your opinion about them having less importance should not be used to justify less articles for Banjo and Conker content. By offering flexibility, we can change the wiki based on new circumstances, instead of being stuck in stasis. -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. To Bloc Partier, we'll still have hierarchies of sorts, but they will be established by the community, not by a subjective overarching policy in place for all time. I added a section about our current regulations to the new policy. This policy will not destroy barriers between Mario and other series - it only removes the speculation of what is more canonical. The wiki can still decide what the wiki's focus is collectively while keeping official information. To Walkazo, perhaps that was too harsh wording. Your essay seems open to change as well, which is why I feel we should just keep the policy open. Perhaps at the bottom of the policy we could list major proposals that have passed to provide the specifics regarding each series, but also note these rules is subject to change (but must be obeyed until they are changed). In regards to Banjo and Conker content, they are to remain on their individual series pages unless the wiki decides otherwise at a later date. Again, Pyoro is up in the air, as there has been no proposal about it. A section keeping track of proposals regarding article creation would give explicit instructions without affecting the main policy. -- Son of Suns (talk) Also, this policy would not mean we couldn't create series articles based on other franchises. Again, as long as the content is retained, it can be organized any way we agree upon. So your Star Fox and Sonic series articles are a definite possibility, although I think the main series of Itadaki Street is actually Dragon Warrior. =D -- Son of Suns (talk)
I'm currently neutral on this proposal, but are the Banjo and Kazooie series really spin-offs of Diddy Kong Racing? As far as I know, the Banjo and Conker games were already in development before Diddy Kong Racing's release, and the two characters were put in for advertising the future games. Would anyone call Fire Emblem: Fūin no Tsurugi a spin-off of Super Smash Bros. Melee because Roy appeared first in the latter game? Banjo's article also tells that he starred in Diddy Kong Racing for advertising Banjo-Kazooie. The user KingMario pointed that out. Not that this would change something to this proposal, just wanted to tell, since the series articles say they are spin-offs which might be incorrect. --Grandy02 (talk) Who knows if someone from Warioware isn't going to appear in the DSI Pyoro game? And as Bloc Partier pointed out above, Pyoro was alway a recuring character in Warioware (Storyline-wise, he's even the reason the series exist), meanwhile, Banjo and Conker were only two guys put in a spin-off of a spin-off to advertise their own games and who were taken out of the remake. The Pyoro\BanjoConker comparison is full of holes. --Blitzwing (talk) Some responses: 1) This proposal is not about Banjo and Conker, which cannot be denied under the current MarioWiki: Canonicity policy (this would have to be changed to make Banjo and Conker content from official Nintendo games illegitimate). This new Importance Policy will instead ensure such content is placed in two articles (in a database of close to 9000) instead of hundreds of articles being created and Banjo content being placed in Mario categories, etc. This policy serves as clarification - a place where the rules developed in proposals can be seen and thus followed. 2) Actually Banjo and Conker were "owned" by Nintendo at one time, just as Mario was "owned" by Philips at one time. Rare was a second party owned by Nintendo and was given official approval to create Diddy Kong Racing, the Banjo series, and the Conker series and were allowed to create those connections, establishing a clear link between all three. Similarly, Philips was allowed by Nintendo to create Mario games such as Hotel Mario. If we decide to base articles solely on the present instead of actions in the past, we would have to eliminate most of the articles on Super Mario RPG, as the characters are now owned by Square-Enix (a third party company), not Nintendo. This is shown by Geno's inclusion in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. He is a copyright of Square-Enix, and thus should not have an article if we include only characters "owned" by Nintendo. Nuts & Bolts and Live & Reloaded would not be included here based on MarioWiki: Canonicity, which only allows content from licensed Nintendo products, which those two games clearly are not. 3) I'm not actually sure where the Pyoro "comparison" came in, as it is not part of the proposal but part of the old Importance Policy which this proposal is trying to change. Again, Banjo and Conker have established connections both in the games and in the fictional universes, and thus have a "label" of "spin-off" (which is as artificial as calling Mario Kart a "spin-off" - it's just a label). What is important is that there are clear connections between the three series as established by Diddy Kong Racing. Based on MarioWiki: Canonicity and MarioWiki: Chronology, remakes are no more "true" than the original, so just because Banjo and Conker were not in Diddy Kong Racing DS makes no difference to their relative importance (but may be important for how we organize such content). Just as we don't get rid of connections made in Super Mario 64 because it has been remade, the same applies to Diddy Kong Racing DS. And the label of "spin-off" does make some sense based on the clear connections made in the fictional universe. This is made explicit in the story of Diddy Kong Racing (as described by the official instruction booklet). When Wizpig attacks Timber’s Island, Timber sends a letter to Diddy Kong asking for help. Diddy Kong responds by writing letters to his friends Banjo and Conker, asking then to come along on his adventure. Diddy Kong then has Squawks personally deliver the handwritten letters to Banjo and Conker. This establishes a clear historical and geographical connection between Diddy Kong, Banjo and Conker. They don’t simply meet for the first time in this game, they have been friends for a some amount of time before. Also, the parrot Squawks is able to fly to Banjo and Conker, establishing that they all live relatively close together. Also consider the official profiles for these characters. Banjo (page 24): "Even before the start of his future partnership with Kazooie, Banjo isn’t one to turn down the chance of an adventure. So when Squawks brings the message from his pal Diddy Kong, the Honey Bear stuffs a few things into his trusty backpack and takes to his heels." As above, this establishes a connection between Banjo, Diddy Kong, and Squawks. This references also indicates that Diddy Kong Racing chronologically takes place before Banjo-Kazooie, that this part of the Donkey Kong series is a part of the same continuum as Banjo’s timeline. Conker (page 24): "Another friend made by Diddy Kong on one of his endless adventures with Donkey Kong. Conker is also an exploration nut who’ll jump at any chance to break free of a squirrel’s less than exciting routine. He’s eager to join up with Banjo as the bear passes through." Conker not only has an explicit connection with Diddy Kong and Banjo, he is also connected to Donkey Kong himself. All four of these characters met before the events of the game, establishing the geographical and historical connections made above. There are also some more minor references that not only establish links between the worlds of Donkey Kong, Banjo, and Conker, but to Mario’s world as well.
4) The last point is, regardless if Banjo and Conker were in development, Nintendo did not have to release the games. They owned Rare and did not have to license their products nor did they have to create connections between Donkey Kong, Banjo, Conker, Diddy Kong and Mario. New characters are always being created to promote new franchises. Wario was created and placed in a Mario game then immediately had his own series, just like Banjo and Conker. Ultimately Nintendo made a choice and established this connection and approved the continuation of the Banjo and Conker series. We should respect that choice, just as we respect Nintendo's choice to make a game about a jumping carpenter and a stubborn ape instead of a game about Popeye and Bluto. -- Son of Suns (talk) I agree that Banjo and Conker have more connections story-wise to the main DK/Mario series we cover than WarioWare. But also WarioWare has some, the by far strongest one being Wario himself, who is a very important recurring character in the Mario series (that can't be said about Banjo and Conker), but Diamond City and the Wario Bike have also appeared in the Mario Kart series. In terms of story-unrelated references, WarioWare surely has more content (all those Mario-related microgames and mini-games and the Mario Paint content). Anyway, if I understand this proposal right, it does not mean that we create articles on everything in Banjo and Conker, but can also have just one article per series instead? I'd go with the latter one, because of the lack of appearances of Banjo and Conker in the Mario/DK series, unlike Wario, who is a recurring character in the Mario series (and Pyoro being a recurring character in WarioWare again). But then it should also include the Microsoft-published titles, even if they aren't authorized by Nintendo, they are still official for the two named series. So, please tell if understand this proposal right. --Grandy02 (talk)
I think all three of you stated things perfectly. Banjo and Conker are definitely less related than WarioWare, and that's why they are only allocated series pages (as listed in the regulations section). They aren't that important, but that does not mean they are completely un-important to the Mario franchise and thus should be left out. The Banjo and Conker series pages are good compromises - providing coverage of a connected series but preventing the creation of hundreds of Banjo and Conker articles (this is stated in the policy, based on the comments provided by Walkazo). Addressing Bloc Partier's concerns, this policy would do away with complicated degrees or tiers of seperation and connection between series, which is very speculative. So while Banjo, Conker, and WarioWare may be on the same "tier" (based on certain interpretations), we can say Banjo and Conker are less important than WarioWare, which means all Banjo and Conker content gets stuck in two articles, whereas WarioWare are given individual articles, showing their greater importance to the Mario franchise. As far as Microsoft titles are concerned, the series pages features sections about games for Microsoft systems, but under MarioWiki: Canonicity it would be hard to say whether the two Microsoft-only titles could be represented here, as they are not directly licensed by Nintendo nor was the production of the games approved, as Microsoft can do whatever it wants with Banjo and Conker (probably), whereas I am sure Phillips had restrictions on what it could do with Mario (i.e., couldn't make a game about Mario shooting up drugs or something). So those games would have some mention, but MarioWiki: Canonicity would likely prevent complete coverage, as the Mario franchise is controlled by Nintendo and Nintendo has no say in what Microsoft does. -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. Looking over MarioWiki: Canonicity, information from the two Microsoft games could count as notable mainstream appearances of Banjo and Conker, and thus such content could be allowed on the series pages. However, such content would not be completely protected - if the wiki agrees the content is not notable enough for inclusion, then the content may be dropped. The other games are licensed by Nintendo, and thus their inclusion is allowed under MarioWiki: Canonicity. What is "notable" outside Nintendo's licensing is subject to debate.
MiscellaneousNone at the moment. |
