User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick/Archive 4

Doc von Schmeltwick's talk page archives
Episode I: The Phantom Mole-nace (1-160) (July 2017-January 2018) The story of how a decade-long lurker finally joined for the sole reason of fixing a glaring mistake on Bald Cleft's page. And then they yell about classification on mole-ish creatures on a few occasions.
Episode II: Attacky of the Sackies (161-320) (January 2018-October 2018) Attacky Sacks appear and eat the universe, then I inadvertently help "Bowsette" propagate. Oops.
Episode III: Revenge of the Fish (321-480) (November 2018-November 2019) Is Boss Bass the same as Cheep Chomp or Big Cheep Cheep and/or big Blurp?
Episode IV: A New Dope (481-640) (November 2019-November 2023) Various projects (and splits & merges) while I finish my graduate degree.

Re:Boo Buddy Swarm

The same thing happened on page 24: "CLIMBING KOOPAS Hit the climbing Koopas on the same side of the fence from above, or press the B Button to knock down ones on the opposite side." That one is also a proposed move because "Climbing Koopa" is technically not used as the name of the subject and is used as a description. A similar thing happened with "Kamikaze Koopa", which has an all-caps header on page 92 but is only named descriptively everywhere else, including one instance of "flashing kamikaze Koopa shell" on page 36. In general, I feel we should maybe take a step back from relying on stuff like section headers and level titles unless we have to since there seems to be a thin line on whether things were intended as actual names or just descriptors. That said, I don't see an instance of "Boo Buddy swarm" in the source unlike those examples, but right before it on the same page, under "SHOO, BIG BOO!", it states: "Lining the cold, darking corridors on the Forest Ghost House are Boo Buddies, Big Boos and Eeries." The swarm isn't mentioned at all and is implicitly lumped together with Boo Buddies. Also note that none of the Boo derivatives in Super Mario World except Big Boo have their own Japanese name, which could liken them to the Chargin' Chuck types or (if merged) Lakitu in a Pipe. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:59, November 29, 2019 (EST)

Re:directs

I just hope no one gets too upset that I skipped Kintobor. Nevermind, my thoughts exactly. Besides, I think it's been confirmed that the franchise operates on multiple universe logic (or at least, I'm aware that the western comic writers interpreted it that way), so one can argue that the alternate media characterizations of Eggman are all different characters in a similar vein to Eggman Nega. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:20, December 8, 2019 (EST)

You may be surprised to know that we were actually pretty close to remerging live-action film content back into the main articles, but then I noticed and presented overlooked information at the eleventh hour that halted that proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:59, December 8, 2019 (EST)

Good question. I see that "Fungus Unit" is currently redlinked but they're apparently separate from the film's Snifits. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:37, December 9, 2019 (EST)

Right, the same sentence mentions both the garbagemen and Fungus Unit being based on Snifits and Shy Guys, but I only seem to recall one of them leaving an impression. The novelization apparently does call the former Snifits. LinkTheLefty (talk) 01:45, December 9, 2019 (EST)

The way I view it is that "Sniff-it" comes from a leaked, in-progress work, whereas "Snifit" comes from a released, finished product, so priority would technically go to the latter if it has its own article. For the police force / Fungus Unit, I'd have to rewatch the movie to tell you. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:06, December 9, 2019 (EST)

Wanna be friends?

I think we could be friends. FireyYoshi (talk) 18:46, December 9, 2019 (EST)FireyYoshi

Well that's rather sudden...I see no reason not to, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:07, December 9, 2019 (EST)

Do you have a userbox? FireyYoshi (talk) 19:43, December 9, 2019 (EST)FireyYoshi

No, sorry XD Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:48, December 9, 2019 (EST)

Re:Kyodai

Well, basically all the Super Mario Bros. 3 revision world names are direct translations of the manual names (with the exception of Water Land), and it uses Giant Land there. I say leave it be for accuracy's sake since dai and deka are much closer than kyodai. Not sure if biggu was always reserved for Yoshi bosses since there are exceptions like Big Lantern Ghost, but given Big Heihō was seemingly renamed Mega Heihō, that's probably the case now. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:10, December 10, 2019 (EST)

I imagine the Blarggs just have seniority from before Yoshi's Island continued as a series, but we already do note the possible Big Cheep Cheep connection in the Boss Bass page (though keep in mind, Nintendo of Japan wasn't the only developer of NES Remix 2, which could explain why the internal filenames are a little all over the place). LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:06, December 10, 2019 (EST)

At this point, I'm just crossing my fingers for a Super Mario Maker 2 update to hopefully settle things in the near future. I do think that the Big Chain Chomp from Super Princess Peach is a Chomp Shark, if only for the very simple reason that its order in the game glossary suggests a returning enemy instead of a new one (i.e. it's not used to segue into Walruss and Starfish). Here's one way to look at it if it makes a merge easier: since we're apparently intent on keeping Chain Chomp and Chomp split, we can just take the big Chomp Shark as a large version of the unchained Chomp, while the deka Chain Chomp is a large version of Chain Chomp. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:11, December 11, 2019 (EST)

Re:Model aboutfile box

I understand. From now on, I'll try to credit the original uploader of each model render. --MarioKartDoubleDash (talk) 22:18, December 10, 2019 (EST)

Re:Screenshots

I thought it was fine putting images of ROMhacks because it has the respective enemy in the image. The image of the big goomba has a big goomba, just like the hefty goomba and the goomba one, so I thought it was all fine, but I guess I was wrong. Thanks for the advice, but I still don't know why it is forbidden. --Rodmjorgeh (talk) 14:59, December 15, 2019 (EST)

By the way, can I put images of the Enemy Course? That's vanilla NSMBW. --Rodmjorgeh (talk) 15:04, December 15, 2019 (EST)

Re:"Fan-made"

I was referring to the fact that it said "official artwork" as if the wiki ever uses unofficial artwork. People can already tell that it's official, otherwise it wouldn't be on the wiki. Kind of like the "official profiles" description. Scrooge200 (talk) 16:27, December 25, 2019 (EST)

Re:Crows, flames, and piscatory punks

Fire and Kuro have more similarities since they were both identified as Fireball and Nitpicker, respectively, with the exception of Japanese Game Boy Donkey Kong material which gave those subtypes their own names. They're not like the color variants of barrels or Snapjaws because they've always had distinct designs. I think that, whether Fireball (Donkey Kong) becomes an article separate from Fire or not, Kuro should have the same treatment - I don't believe it should be left alone since it seems fairly obvious that Kuro is supposed to be the same raven-like version of the enemy. If it remains split, I'd say let's just use the unique current name via priority exception, with the exception of Donkey Kong Jr.-specific content. If it merges, then I think we should reconsider our stance on Spark - I know we've already done that, but if Fire and Kuro are merged with Fireball and Nitpicker, then it stands to reason that all of the enemies and elements from the arcade games reappeared in remixed form in the Game Boy game, which should include Spark (though Spark originally had two different designs as well, so I wonder if "Globe" should also be considered for a split). Piscatory Pete is a separate issue I think, but as I say, I believe resolving it would be best done with another proposal; it's just odd that Piscatory Pete has a separate entry from the Cheep Cheep in every guide it appears in, so the situation could be more akin to Boo and Big Boo being labeled with parenthesis identifiers. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:29, December 29, 2019 (EST)

Spark's one of the few Mario enemies not to receive their own figure in the Link's Awakening remake, but neither do Podoboos and Thwomps. It's probably supposed to be the Mario enemy given the game's Super Mario Bros. 2 references. Though for what it's worth, Zelda Encyclopedia doesn't call it a guest character from the Super Mario Bros. series, unlike the other Mario species. At least, going by the English version. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:22, December 30, 2019 (EST)

DKP

Which source did you use for this info? Also, speculation should not be done, unless there is concrete evidence on Cranky replacing Redneck. Doomhiker (talk) 17:00, January 28, 2020 (EST)

I literally played the leaked ROM dump available on TCRF. I didn't say he "replaced" him, it's just that, considering both the debug and character select screen lead to two Crankys, one of which is on the world select represented by garbled data, that's a fairly solid conclusion. Most likely, it defaults to Cranky to avoid a runtime error caused from a lack of Crappy Kong's data. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:19, January 28, 2020 (EST)

Bad Hair Day

While I agree with you that it doesn't really need a reference to show that the texture was simply removed, your claim of "I think I'm established here enough" isn't really a valid reason for putting something back. Even admins make mistaken edits sometimes, doesn't matter your reputation. Not saying you aren't a good editor and don't have experience with models (I know you do, I see you on Resource sometimes), that's not really something you should add to summaries. It really doesn't mean anything. 17:49, January 28, 2020 (EST)

I didn't want it to come off as delayed edit warring is all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:16, January 28, 2020 (EST)

Something fishy (and a favor)

Remember how Japanese Wikipedia can be overly stringent when it comes to recognizing name changes, like with having multiple entries for a big enemy? I found that the Wikipedia page for Pukupuku is a notable outlier in this regard as it incudes a mention of red and blue varieties from Yoshi's Story under "巨大プクプク(Boss Bass)" instead of giving them separate entries like you might expect. I wonder if this is worth pursuing further? I have the Shogakukan and TJ Mook guides (which I'm still not sure is official) and I don't notice any explicit reference to the Blurps as 「巨大プクプク」 but maybe there is something else out there that does directly refer to them as such. That aside, there's something I want to ask of you: can you take care of my proposal outcomes for me? I'd normally do it myself, but my computer recently failed on me and I won't be able to repair or replace it right away (which is too bad since I also wanted to write up a Marin article for Triforce Wiki next week but I don't think I'll have it up on time). Resorting to mobile editing is too inconvenient for me with all these changes. If you'd rather not, that's fine, I don't mean to be thrusting it upon you and I'm sure it'd be okay if they sat on the list of unimplemented proposals for a little while. If you do, you should be able to throw in the bird toy split in there without problems since there was no opposition and it was just short of one official vote (Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis object graphics filename is data/data/anims/DK2_bird_anim.bin so it can be named "Bird (toy)"). LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:45, February 5, 2020 (EST)

I'm a tad busy with school, but I'll see what I can do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:08, February 5, 2020 (EST)

I may be able to get around to it this weekend, so no worries, but I do have questions about the proposed titles: why exactly should Fire have an identifier when it's the only subject with that name, and now that I think of it, should Kuro instead have been "Bird (Nitpicker)" or something to that effect considering that they're called "Birds" in at least one manual? LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:58, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Because "Fire" is still a valid old name for the Fireball, and is such a generic term one could be searching for projectile fireballs or Bowser's fire attack or even the Game & Watch game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:13, March 5, 2020 (EST)

I suppose, but just a minor nitpick - if the "75 m" stage in Smash is any indication, "100m" from the Game Boy game should probably be "100 m" from the arcade game. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:25, March 5, 2020 (EST)

RE:Autograph

I already discussed this with TheFlameChomp, and he said to keep the Autographs from Paper Mario in one article while splitting off the rest. If you want to create a proposal on the matter, that's fine with me, but I won't be likely to support it; you may disagree with the changes, but I have yet to see another user who agrees with your stance. Also, I don't think Super Mushroom is a strong-enough comparison to use here, given that it's a case of consumable items vs. key items. ^(T|C) 15:41, February 9, 2020 (EST)

Sorry paisano but I'm with Doc. You need to seriously relax on the splitting. Stuff like the orbs or card keys did not need to be split at all. Trig - 16:02, February 9, 2020 (EST)

@Trig: Were you actually reading Doc's arguments? They were specifically mystified over my splitting of Autograph, and haven't brought up other concerns (yet).

@Doc: I mean, I'm fine with switching to creating proposals for the time being, but keep in mind that this proposal alone is the precedent for said splits, and so you will very likely need to create proposals to override my changes. ^(T|C) 23:30, February 9, 2020 (EST)

Again, TheFlameChomp, an admin, approved of my changes to the page. I don't really have anything else to say, so at this point a counterproposal is the only way to go. ^(T|C) 09:49, February 10, 2020 (EST)

RE:Tap-Tap guy

Was doing it as you messaged me. Anyways, the reason why I talked to the ip on their talk page first was because when I added my comment they only made a small amount of edits, and due to them only doing minor acts of vandalism (one of which looking like a possible new user mistake) I decided that blocking them so early wasn't needed. Then they ignored my message and continued to vandalize, thus warranting the block. Doomhiker (talk) 16:22, February 20, 2020 (EST)

Still, thanks for the advice and undoing his latter edits. Doomhiker (talk) 16:23, February 20, 2020 (EST)

Re:bigness

I see where you're coming from, but I think it's overall much safer to consider them big variants for sure when they have smaller versions to compare them in the same game (or when they're directly named as such, like Mega Dry Bones appearing without regular-sized Dry Bones in Mario Party: Star Rush), especially considering that size has always been kind of relative (recall Goomba). On a related note, I realize after the fact that it wasn't smart to include Mega Guy in the Big Lantern Ghost proposal, since I overlooked the fact that big Shy Guys appear elsewhere and now they don't have a solid, single article to cover all of them in one place. I only noticed this after checking out the Black Shy Guy article. The lesson I suppose is not to include proposal options that you may regret later, so I plan on making a counterproposal at some point. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:58, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Pushback?

I think I warned before that this might happen someday, but I'm noticing some general pushback as of late to taking other languages into account in proposals. I don't believe there's too much cause for alarm just yet, but as someone who remembers what this wiki looked like in the mid-2000's, I seriously don't think many of these newer users know what they're actually asking for when they repeat opinionated nonarguments and empty rhetoric like "This is an English wiki", "I don't want to hear anything about the Japanese name", "Your proposals are going too far", "These merges make me wanna do the splits" etc., nevermind that such changes in this wiki have always individually had the original language of the main developers in mind, as they tend to have more control over their intentions, and so the tables are usually reversed on the occasion that products come from English or American creators. What's a good way to remind people that excluding the intent of foreign developers in favor of a localized dichotomy is counterproductive? I'm almost considering compiling a list of inconsistent translations over the years (e.g. Podoboo/Lava Bubble/Sparky/Spark Spook, Micro Goomba/Goombette/Mini Goomba, Boo/Big Boo, among a veritable ocean of other examples) to demonstrate the sheer ridiculousness of that direction, but since such a thing would be a rather long and thankless project, I'd rather make something like that if the situation only actively goes down a really bad rabbit hole. It's something that at least has my attention. Thoughts? LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:35, March 5, 2020 (EST)

I always go with Cheep Cheep/Cheep-Cheep/Cheepcheep/Flopsy Fish/Goby/Bub/Bubba/Blurp, myself. I discovered this wiki myself around early 2009, so I remember a lot of those oddities. The fish thing is still not completely sorted out from that time period. And of course, the ever-popular Goomba/Galoomba thing. There was also the time SML Piranha Plant was split from other Piranha Plant. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:16, March 5, 2020 (EST)

may it be noted that i don't like when people talk about me behind my back, as it's quite clear that this was referring to me, trig, and waluigi time. it even quoted us. TheDarkStar 23:32, March 5, 2020 (EST)

"Behind your back?" This is public. Hence how you found it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)

I'm still somewhat embarrassed that some of the Boss Bass / Bubba / Cheep Chomp debacle directly ended up in Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia... Also, when one spends valuable time addressing a topic at an individual, case-by-case basis, only for it to be dismissed with more (paraphrased) generalizations, you can understand how it may be a little upsetting. Better to vent than to invoke #5. Besides, I'm not a fan of how such talks happen on Discord. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:22, March 6, 2020 (EST)

OK, I seem to have hit a breakthrough on this. Some people seem to think that Mariowiki:Naming's priority rules apply to splitting and merging when (as the maintenance article clearly states) it is only intended for finding the right article title. Not gonna say any names, but that's the gist. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:51, March 7, 2020 (EST)

Re: London to Stonehenge

It isn't just Sonic who was getting there though- Tails, Mario, Luigi, Toad and Omega were with him, and I doubt that they all would have been able to get there as fast too. It's just something in the mode that I thought was particularly weird, it's the only place outside of London that they visit but it's not very close to London. BBQ Turtle (talk) 03:37, March 8, 2020 (EDT)

Bubble Pop

Have you played Yoshi's Story? The Bubble Pop page says the player can pop one if they touch it six times, but when I tried to pop a Bubble Pop without using any eggs, it took more than six touches to pop it. I'd like to correct that content, but I don't know exactly how many times a Bubble Pop needs to be touched to pop it. Can you please help me? Dwhitney (talk) 16:18, March 12, 2020 (EDT)

OK, I just tried, and it's actually more like 25 times. It might vary, actually. I may have lost a count or too due to a Fuzzy Wiggler getting in the way. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:23, March 12, 2020 (EDT)

OK, yeah, I think it varies, I've so far also gotten as low as seemingly 15 and as high as 30. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:29, March 12, 2020 (EDT)

Thanks for the info. I corrected the content. Dwhitney (talk) 16:58, March 12, 2020 (EDT)

Re:About Pink Fuzzy...

Fair question. We have no way of knowing what the developers of the original Paper Mario designated Pokey Mummy (or Jungle Fuzzy) without looking at source code, but I'll say that Poison Pokey is known as c_sanbo_m in The Thousand-Year Door and e_sanbo_m in Super Paper Mario. While this could mean Pokey Mummy, m could also stand for midori, the Japanese word for green. Green enemies/characters are inconsistently labeled m or g, and color shorthand is common throughout. I personally don't think it stands for Pokey Mummy since as I mentioned in the proposal, the developers seemed intent on possibly repurposing Gold Fuzzy as a "Yellow Fuzzy" since they renamed those files, and Poison Pokey's filenames were still kept as late as Super Paper Mario. Poison Pokey also has a different shade, looking more greenish than the bluish Pokey Mummy. So similar entities, but different situation I'd say: Poison Pokey doesn't have the mummified gimmick, which isn't a decision based on any gameplay change or the enemy's interpretation overall (Pink Fuzzy, without FP or the Fuzzies' former absorption, can't be called "Flower" anymore). LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:50, March 13, 2020 (EDT)

Yep, in The Thousand-Year Door, "Killer Packun" (the one with the game identifier) is c_pakflwr while Frost Piranha is c_pakflwr_a, Putrid Piranha is c_pakflwr_p and Pale Piranha is c_pakflwr_t; in Super Paper Mario, regular Piranha Plant is e_pakflwr, Frost Piranha is e_pakflwr_i, and Poison Piranha is e_pakflwr_p. So it does seem like the English version is actually closer to the developers' designation (it may have been a relatively late decision to make the Boggly Woods enemies the monochrome versions, explaining why the stronger and weaker versions of Piranha Plant and [Moon] Cleft were named around), except the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate guidance still mentions Killer Packun and not Pale Piranha (though that may have been a consequence of probable online borrowing). LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:17, March 13, 2020 (EDT)

Wizzerd is another case where the English localization got it mostly right: base Wizzerd is c_maho, Dark Wizzerd is c_maho_b, and Elite Wizzerd is c_maho_w. The Thousand-Year Door's boss and Bowser Bloopers seem to share some of the same resources, just rescaled in-game (it's c_geso_kn for the normal design, but c_gesso, c_gesso2, c_gesso3, c_gesso4 for boss-specific assets). On that note, I notice that the Big Blooper from Super Paper Mario apparently reuses the same eye textures as the boss from the previous game, just upscaled. Bloopers in Super Paper Mario are also strange now that I take another look - e_big_gesso and e_geso refer to the boss and tentacles, but the enemy seems to be TEST_gesso- and - something else that doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere - there are graphics for a small/Baby Blooper under TEST_s_gesso- (looks based on the version from the original Paper Mario but different shading). Were there any Blooper Babies in Super Paper Mario? If not, I'll upload it for the pre-release and unused content article since the texture is simple enough (a lot of the others I've found are in pieces and need to be assembled in-engine, and I'm not sure of a good way at the moment to represent that without kind of guessing how they're meant to fit together in-game). Judging from this, the Blooper enemy was probably used to debug the underwater sections, but the developers decided to keep it around. Anyway, in light of all this, I'm pondering if the white Cleft should be split from the main Cleft article, since it's likely in the same boat as the Piranha Plant. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:15, March 13, 2020 (EDT)

It would have been rather easy to leave things alone if the writer only replaced "Killer Packun" with "Pale Piranha", but now the current splits seem too selective. I do think that the developers swapped the colors around for aesthetic reasons, though I wonder why they didn't just consider the usual-colored versions of Piranha Plant and Cleft to be the "main" versions when the game also introduced Dull Bones (c_karon_g/e_karon_g), which are weaker than Dry Bones. It would probably be a good idea to have a Frost/Ice Piranha proposal while we're at it. By the way, do Bob-ombs and Bandits appear in any scenes in Super Paper Mario? They have assets in it, and there's probably more. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:09, March 13, 2020 (EDT)

Yes, Ruff Puff is another example where the filenames line up with the final, though another thing that I noticed is that Ruff Puff variants have leftovers in Super Paper Mario as well. What's odd about this one is that it seems that the textures for Ice Puff (c_kmoon_b-), Poison Puff (c_kmoon_g-), and Dark Puff (c_kmoon_wb-) were all put in one place (e_kmoon_b-, Ice Puff?), while e_kmoon_g (Poison Puff?) and e_kmoon_w (Dark Puff?) have model data but no similarly-named textures (in both games, texture filenames are denoted by hyphens). Not sure what exactly was going on there. Side note, I'm amused that the developers used "c_kinopiko" and the like to refer to generic female Toad NPCs, though I can't seem to find Toadette at the moment because of it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:50, March 13, 2020 (EDT)

I'll have to remember to check if the filename for Fresh Juice can be of any help later, I might not have copied it for myself. TCRF has obscure Glitzville graphics where it's plainly written as "FRESH JUICE" though (but I don't recall it being sold in that location, so maybe it's a development remnant...or a joke about false advertising). If you were curious since the other monochrome enemies were brought up, Pider (c_paid) is the base of Arantula (c_paid_b). However, the Cleft situation is stranger than initially thought: as seen here, Moon Cleft is referred to as an ordinary Cleft in the Japanese version of Super Paper Mario. What's more, according to Catch Card order, Bald Cleft is considered the basic version of [Moon] Cleft, which is also true in The Thousand-Year Door's Tattle Log. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:48, March 14, 2020 (EDT)

I guess it wouldn't be too surprising to see something like this slip through the cracks since Super Paper Mario was the first game in the Paper Mario series to beat the Japanese version to release (the Mario & Luigi series did beforehand, but those games' North American releases are technically the earlier revisions and were likely localized from an early version of the Japanese text as well, whereas I think Super Paper Mario was the first text-heavy RPG to have extremely close initial builds across regions). Regarding proposal, I'd toss in another option as well: split both Moon Clefts, or (perhaps more applicable) split The Thousand-Year Door Cleft and Moon Cleft while merging original Cleft with Super Paper Mario Moon Cleft. This would basically be similar rationale to having both Pale Piranha and "Killer Packun" split and neither being merged to the main Piranha Plant article. Not my first choice, but it'd be better than inaction. I'd also maybe consider limiting options that basically do the same thing but change which article title to go with (i.e. the first and second proposed options) - we've had times in the past where such proposal options prove to be a bit too overwhelming, so I'd just go with recent naming policy in all cases in the interest of keeping things more simple and straightforward, though that discussion can possibly follow afterwards if the Paper Mario / Super Paper Mario merge option is chosen. [Addendum: Okay, there is a line in Super Paper Mario that refers to Flint Cragley having starred in "Dark Screams! Into Maw of Howling Cleft Colony of Terror!", and it must be referring to the Moon Clefts that appear in the same chapter so maybe it's not so simple to say that Clefts are called Moon Clefts now.] Anyway, Niiue mentioned looking into the Clefts in other languages, which may influence the proposal's result, so it may be best to have that information ready first; otherwise, we may have a repeat of Flower/Pink Fuzzy, where not all details were known before ending. On a semi-related note, do you have anything to add to this discussion (which, in retrospect, I may be overthinking)? LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:06, March 16, 2020 (EDT)

That's also my impression. I was wondering why the final English version seemed confused, with it referring to them as the "famous Piranha Plants" one second and then a "colorless subspecies" the next (though in all fairness, "subspecies" might not have been intended as the same implementation formerly used by the wiki). The fact that every localization considers it a Piranha Plant that adapted to its environment, even the English version were it not for the name, reminds me a lot of the Para-Beetle/Parabuzzy situation. It aligns with Tattle Log order as well. I think that's enough information to rethink the split independent of the Moon Cleft situation. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:35, March 18, 2020 (EDT)

Black Shell...?

I guess I could agree with the Super Mario World Trivia, even though black colors are very inconsistent in the Mario games especially with the Black Coins since they tend of to get different tints of shade and colors. But the Paper Mario Black Shell for the Koopa Bro, I have to disagree with, the Mario shells have never had a very consistent behavior. Gold Shells explode in Mario kart Arcade GP DX but none of the other games do that, Red Shells don't even on players in the main games other than Super Mario Galaxy, Blue Shells either freeze you in the Mario Strikers series, give you the shell form in New Super Mario Bros and Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story and it's 3DS remake, etc. It's still a Black Shell it doesn't have the same exact item to be mentioned on the article, it's like making a Red Shell (Mario Kart series) have a separate article just because it only homes while the other games don't. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 22:53, March 13, 2020 (EDT)

That's not comparable because it's not necessarily about what effect they have in the games - the thing with the black shell is that you're mistakenly conflating "black shells as an item" and "character that happens to wear a black-colored shell which isn't much different from your average shell otherwise". -- Lord G. matters. 23:54, March 13, 2020 (EDT)

RE: Proposal-less PM splits

Yes it should, thanks. Mario JC 08:31, March 14, 2020 (EDT)

Bristle

I dunno about the thing you removed, considering "Bristle" is actually capitalized ingame, which wouldn't make sense for the actual word. Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 01:12, March 18, 2020 (EDT)

Still seems incidental. After all, we removed "vim and vigor" being a vim reference, which would make more sense as an important plot element from the game's predecessor than a totally random reference to an exceedingly rare enemy from a single game of another subseries released ~5 years prior. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:22, March 18, 2020 (EDT)

Imo, it's not too unlikely they'd do a somewhat obscure callback. Just look at some of the Sammer Guys' names, for instance. Also, Partners in Time only came out a year after TTYD... Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 01:34, March 18, 2020 (EDT)

Yeah, but again, direct predecessor, and SPM was already referencing stuff all over the franchise. BiS mostly just referenced its predecessors, with almost all miscellaneous references as part of elaborate enemy attacks. Anyways, if you insist on adding it back, that's fine, I just think that at the very least it should be explicitly stated it's capitalized. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:47, March 18, 2020 (EDT)

Re:Mushroom Houses

It's probably not needed; I'm kind of amazed how consistent the terms "Toad House" and "White Mushroom House" are in regards to Super Mario Bros. 3, so "[color] Mushroom House" should only refer to nonregular Toad Houses in it and Super Mario Advance 4. Will look at the Cataquack thing later (it seems similar to the Bramble situation, which I think is enough to consider related). Also I'll be adding evidence from the Prima guide soon that may merge Advance Coin with Ace Coin. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:31, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

The "Mushroom Coin" from Super Mario Advance 4 can be seen here. Not sure if something similar appears in Super Mario Advance 2 - if you mean the pink berry-induced coin object described here, I think it was given a name in one of the guides but I'll have to double-check. I thought I added it before somewhere. BradyGames indeed refers to red Cataquacks as Chuhanas on page 6, but as it turns out, it also refers to Plungelos as Chuhanas on page 64. I suppose that's not too surprising since both are also called Red Cataquacks, so there was some confusion between the authors' reference material. The same page, and the following, refers to the Wiggler as "Boss Hana", which also implies a connection. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:24, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

Salutation and Question

Hi Mister, I'm happy to see I'm not the only one that know a lot of things about Birdo and recognize as a important character like Toad and Yoshi can be, as a character that was recognize 3 Times Captain, while no minion was a single time. I'm here to talk about what I should do to be got a official account. If I answer 8 times for the same edit is that count or I need to creates 8 edits like this one to be official or I need to wait some days to be confirmed? Also, in this debate with Mario Comix I saw we can erase message in the edit section, so just to be sure my message is not erase by Mario Comix, I want to give you my message here, so we can refer to it if we want whatever happen.

I got my Final Exam this month, so I won't have really more time to debate. So if somebody answer me, you can reply for me.

Thank you again, we will give to Birdo's File, what it should be.

Here my message :

« I understand BBQ Turtle, but Birdo is playable in 26 games, not 24. The Birdo (species)'s page doesn't take care to list her playable appearance in the "List of appearance by date"'s section cause there's not. So, there is a problem, in one page, we can't count the good numbers of appearance. We can't know she is playable in these 2 games, cause no information refer to her Birdo (species)'s page and even if we go on that page, the informations aren't even listed. On one page, we miss some informations about her to made a complete page and on the other, we don't even list things so we aren't able to list the number of her appearance without read all to be sure how many time she is playable in general and as a specie character. That was said, if the community can't cooperate and make a complete page about a character, because some people got a bad opinion of that character, that site is distorted. We are not supposed to put subjective opinion here. We can object, she is not relevant (1), she is just a minion (2), she is not like Toad and Yoshi (3), she make appearance in stage (4), but all of these reason doesn't work.

She is relevant since 1988 (1987 depending if we count YK:DDP), she is a character/minion like Yoshi can be, but more relevant than Toad. She is more relevant than Toad being playable in Mario Tennis 64 (2000) (which Toad isn't), having is own objet in Mario Kart : Double Dash!! (2003) (Toad object is not unique. Sharing it with Toadette), she is playable in Mario Golf : Toadstool Tour (2003) (which Toad isn't), named Team Captain in Mario Superstar Baseball (2005)(which not a minion is) like Doc von Schmeltwick mention, she is playable in Mario Hoops 3-on-3 (2006) (which Toad isn't), she is named Team Captain again in Mario Super Sluggers (2008) (which not a minion is again), she is playable in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (2016) (which Toad isn't), she is a Captain again in Mario Sports Superstars (2017) (which not a minion is again), in Super Mario Party (2018) the principle of having 10 Good and 10 Bad Characters made usual character being cuted like Birdo (that's normal, they can't put all the characters), but she was previously full modeled at one point she could be playable too like her full design prove it. She's is more playable than Toad itself, she was named 3 Times Captain considering not a single minion is and actually in Dr. Mario World, she is not place at the assistant role like all these minion, making her a eventual Doctors (Captain) like the rest of the Koopalings are due to be too (we will know in the future, based on the 30 march 2020). She is not consider more as a specie in her early Mario Spin-Off at all, all her latest appearance : Mario Party 9 (2012), Mario Golf : World Tour (2014), Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (2016) in the 3DS Version, Mario Sports Superstars (2017), Mario Tennis Aces (2018) and Mario Kart Tour (2019). The only exception to that is in the Wii Version, back to 2016 in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games. To finish and answer to the fourth reason, Toad appear more in Stages than Birdos.

Like Daisy and Waluigi, Birdo became easily a Icon since Mario Tennis 64 (2000), but more importantly, LGBTQIA+ start identifying this character as the first Trans Character of the Video Games Industry Ever Made. I think we can play a important role by, at least recognize what she did to give her, the visibility the character should got, not more, but not less. People from minority want to identify theirselves to this character and sometimes take facts about that characters, it's not a problem. If she is playable in 26 games and not 24, we just should mention she did it in 26.

If you still got doubt about it BBQ Turttle, I got a solution, why not just add the appropriate facts about it on her page, cause actually, we don't even talk she is represent as a Birdo in Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged and we don't even refer to her Birdo (specie)'s page and add these informations in "List of appeareance by date" ***BY MENTION THAN*** she is playable as a Birdos members, not as a singular one. That's it, so the list will be complete AND we will be able to see she doesn't have the same exact appearance than her other games. »

I'm a transgirl and obsessor of weird cartoon reptiles myself, but...ummm.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:38, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

What are you saying, Hahaha? Sorry, I'm new here, so I don't have any idea of what kind of jokes you people makes here. I would also like to talk to you about the Birdo's file section. - Ouimet 06:33, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

The joke is apparent if you click the link. Also you may have wanted to lead with that last sentence instead of that opening essay. -- Lord G. matters. 07:37, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

Hey Doc, I saw your last conversation on Birdo (species) with Gamermakerguy, specially about the fact Pink Birdos into the Mario Strikers series should be transfert on the Birdo (the singular / general) page too. I already did that conversation with Alex95. You don't have to read all we write about the subject, but if you go at the end of the discussion page, you can start reading Alex95 at 1:02, 31 March, 2020 (EDT) until the end of the conversation. You will see, he recognize we are right to change the Birdo (the singular / general). So you don't have to debate anymore. You or me are authorized to change that details. I will correct it, before this summer, for sure. Ouimet (talk) 19:42, 18 April, 2020 (ET)

Light notice about certain comments

Certain users have expressed displeasure, and have been pushed back from the wiki, because of how you word your arguments. Not the actual arguments themselves (usually, but if people get annoyed at different opinions that's their fault, given that no one should be a bigot), but your excessive use of italics and bold and how certain (albeit rare) comments almost attack certain users with their wording, like with your comment towards Scrooge on the Super Soda talk page. While you should be allowed to express your opinions and explain them, you just need to calm down a bit when explaining these opinions, to make sure no one feels insulted. Doomhiker (talk) 20:21, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

I'm sorry, but when I've already explained a concept repeatedly and someone uses the things I literally just debunked as their argument, then I myself feel absolutely personally attacked, so apologies if I naturally respond in a similar (albeit indeed less insulting on a personal level) manner. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:27, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

While feeling that's fine, you shouldn't return that feeling. Doomhiker (talk) 20:30, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Re:Beetle Goom

I forgot about that, so I'll rewrite accordingly. Punch pretty much has the same attack pattern as Pirate Goom if I recall correctly, so it can probably replace Togemaru in Pirate Goom's infobox. By the way, some sources seem to describe these enemies a little off. I can see why Albatross is called a "gull" and Flame is called a "dragon" (sprite was always too small for me to make out any strong details), but I always thought of Togemaru as some sort of sea creature given how they seemed to be more prevalent in chapters featuring water, though in lieu of anything else, I guess the Beetles category is better than nothing. For Wario Land 3, the Muddee boss is called a "beaver" and the conjectural Tadpole enemy is called "fish". Should we recategorize these enemies? Flame and Muddee in particular are currently considered a fox and salamander, respectively, but the latter is unsourced and in a series where "Kuribō" are mushrooms instead of chestnuts, names alone might not always be a solid indication. BTW: noos gnimoc ofni noitcelloC sseddoG esenapaJ. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:09, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

I wish the scan we had for Togemen's name didn't cut off at the description, but I'll scale it back to be safe. Though I should clarify, it's not just the official website that calls the Tadpoles fish, but also Nintendo Power magazine and a Prima Game Boy guide (though in fairness, they both call Doll Boys hammers "hatchets" when they're clearly not, which is something only the website got right). LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:48, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Underwhere

Given the order of progress, yeah, The Underwhere came first. But the naming scheme and theme of it and The Overthere implies to me the levels were made concurrently during development, even with the Japanese names (nothing to prove that, though). I really doubt the word "underwear" was on the localizers' minds. And what schoolground joke is "why are you under there?"

They are obviously Kid Icarus references. 15:31, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

I mean, I've certainly joked about the way the name sounds myself. I was in middle school when Super Paper Mario came out, and I don't really pay attention to playground jokes.

But even so, that doesn't really relate to the trivia. Saying it's a play on "underwear" sounds too definitive and a joking statement at best. If it was actually intentional by the dev team, either the way the name sounds or it being a pun on the playground joke, that's something I'd like to see a source on. 16:01, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

Well, it's already obvious that the name sounds like "underwear", and the Underworld connection is already stated in the opening paragraph. 16:27, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

Adding "may" would sound like speculation, it either is or it isn't. The localizers probably had a laugh when they came up with the name, but that doesn't mean the name is a pun on "underwear". In what way is it a pun when there's absolutely nothing about undergarments in the level? 16:35, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

Re:Brier and Marucchi

To be fair, I think Urchin may have just been a placeholder graphic; Urchins are supposed to be in or near water, and like the Boo enemies, there doesn't seem to be a trace of them in the final filenames. That said, it would make sense to at least consider Brier "related" to its inspiration/predecessor. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:07, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

Of Monkeys and Donkeys

As you are aware, the monkey from Yoshi's Island has unused graphics for a larger, Donkey Kong-themed version (my personal speculation was that it was intended to be the World 3 fort boss before it was replaced with Prince Froggy). What you may not know is that a Super Mario 64 debug menu refers to Tall Tall Mountain as DONKEY % SLID2 (the stage with a "monkey" and a second in-course "slide"). Perhaps the Grinder/Ukiki connection stretches further back than initially thought, or was even present all along? They seem loosely based on Donkey Kong at least, long before Uckykong. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:36, April 16, 2020 (EDT)

There is that interview where Takashi Tezuka refers to "monkeys", so I am curious if the original text called them Osaru-san or Osaru instead of saru. Maybe shmuplations can clarify. Also, if I'm correct that Super Mario 64 DS converted and heavily edited files directly from the original game (as what seems to be the case with Ocarina of Time 3D years later, running off a modified game engine), then it might be notable that the two Ukikis are called MONKEY_THIEF and MONKEY_STAR - monkey being either just generic or potentially a simplified rendition of Grinder's Japanese name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:21, April 16, 2020 (EDT)

Super Mario RPG

Thanks for dealing with the gallery pages - those and other role-playing game pages have been needing improvement for a while, and that'll save me/anyone else editing quite a few steps when the time comes to rewrite those. -- Lord G. matters. 17:37, April 16, 2020 (EDT)

Yeah, the artwork in statboxes has always bothered me. Maybe this will also encourage people to upload more animated sprites for them like with the M&L enemies....anyways, if I saw any absolute garbage content while doing that, I removed it as well. Highlights include being incredibly insistent Remo Con was a puppet and giving Pinwheel a lot more credit than is due. I'd have rewrote a bunch more, but, homework and keyboard and all.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:40, April 16, 2020 (EDT)

I get the feeling the same could be done for a lot of pages related to Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, since I noticed some of the stat tables use official artwork as well, and even some of the boss articles like Grodus have their enemy stat table right up top in place of a character infobox. Mario Sakuraba (talk) 18:39, April 16, 2020 (EDT)

Yeah, but the problem with that is a lot of the sprites in those cases are layered in funky non-replicable ways in-game, like Smorg for example. And don't even get me started on Hooktail (though admittedly her siblings do fine with what they have...) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:46, April 16, 2020 (EDT)

Monty Mole (green)

So, the page Monty Mole (green) is bothering me. I think a more proper name would be "Green Monty Mole" or "Monty Mole (Flower Fields)". I would try to start a discussion on the talk page but that never works on large, busy wikis like this one so I thought I'd ask you. Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 21:37, April 19, 2020 (EDT)

It's fine the way it is. The first one is an absolute no as that looks like attempting to pass that off as an official name, though the second could work. Seems pointless, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:09, April 19, 2020 (EDT)

Well, now I have to ask how we prioritize descriptors when things have the same name. In my opinion, location is more important than physical characteristics because the latter is obvious upon seeing the image in the infobox, so I think it should be moved to "Monty Mole (Flower Fields)". Additionally, in the event that there are two creatures with the same name that are different in a way besides color, it's difficult for me to imagine a descriptor in parentheses that doesn't sound awkward. For example, if there were two Bob-omb enemies that were the same color, but the more powerful one had shades and was found in Madman Sewers instead of Koridai, would it be more proper to have the title as Bob-omb (shades) or Bob-omb (Madman Sewers)? Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 22:17, April 19, 2020 (EDT)

Probably the latter, but palette swap RPG recolors are still a different situation. And of course, if their origin-language names were the same, I'd move to merging outright. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:36, April 19, 2020 (EDT)

Cool. Now I ask what you mean about RPG recolors being a different situation? The only RPGs I've played besides Pokemon are the Paper Mario games, so I wouldn't know. Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 23:26, April 19, 2020 (EDT)

In RPG Mario games that aren't Color Splash, generally differently colored versions of enemies are treated as a different but related thing. Take Goomba and Gloomba, for example. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:46, April 19, 2020 (EDT)

Oh I see what you mean. Cool, well I'll go ahead and move the page. Anyway, how have you been holding up during this pandemic? Feels like Dr. Mario 64's plot came to real life, except we don't have megavitamins. Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 23:54, April 19, 2020 (EDT)