Talk:Shadow (character)

Here is some evidence that Shadow will be in Brawl: at 1:24 (Or maybe Shadow will just be another color of Sonic)? Theryguy512 17:04, 8 January 2008 (EST)

I smell something fake. Ness wasn't revealed yet, the graphics are a bit messy, and the icons at the bottom are wrong.~Μαριοθανικαλ 17:13, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Also, the Beam Sword is the old version. The icons are different as shown in the image below.~Μαριοθανικαλ 17:15, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Thats actually a fake melee image, both Sonic & Shadow are taken straight from the game Sonic Heroes User:Kamicciolo

Brawl

Shouldn't someone add something about his cameo as an assist trophy?
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Theused (talk).

Go to Assist Trophys Green Guy Talk!^E

Introduction

I'm not sure how PokemonDP wanted me to contact him, but here seems fine since this should be a public decision. I was doing exactly what everyone has said was okay: give a brief outline (ie, one paragraph) over the character's role in their own series prior to entering the Mario series. According to you on that proposal, a short intro should be given as per Wiki policy, however the length seemed to be decided by you alone. Not to be obnoxious, but I only got approval for my example about Sonic the Hedgehog from everyone who commented except you. Then, when I actually put that in the article, I shortened it because I knew you were worried about the length. You'll also note that per Wiki policy we are allowed to write in-depth about a cross-over character so long as the information we're writing about comes from a crossover title (ie Brawl or Olympic Games). You'll notice that in the Shadow and Tails articles I took care to use a very large majority of information from the SSBB trophy profiles. If I remember right, there were something like one or two sentences that weren't brought up in Brawl. According the Wikia policy, having one or two sentences to explain a character's history in his/her own series is acceptable.

Then we have that proposal. As far as I can determine, the proposal was an attempt to make each crossover article something like the character discription section here: [1]. You'll remember that at the beginning I told the proposer that I would be in favor of it if he meant only a short profile, like my example I then gave. He was positive about that idea, but then never changed the official profile description. In other words, the official proposal that people were voting on was still to include information from titles such as Sonic Rush, not to include short summaries like what I suggested. Thus, when the opposition won, that meant the following: we are not expanding the amount of non-Mario/Smash series info that is allowed on the Wiki -- it stands at a short description at the very beginning, which is exactly what you see now on the Sonic articles and saw on the Tails and Shadow articles. Stumpers! 13:28, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

I never EVER agreed to that much information. I never said a paragraph. I never said that. I only said one or two lines briefly detailing outside information. What you added was what MegaMario wanted to happen; But if memory serves, the Support side - MegaMario's side - lost, and the Oppose side - the side voting for the short descriptions that were always there - won. So please leave it be. If you want to rewrite it, that's fine, but please don't go overboard, like what you did just before. Tho, removing your expanded Brawl and Mario & Sonic information was a mistake I made. My Bloody Valentine

No problem about the info, that's what history is for. That proposal was rediculously vague, and please remember -- I did not support it. Let's look closely at the proposal: to add information from games like Sonic Rush. Unless I made a generality, there is no information from Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), Sonic Heroes, Sonic Adventure 2 or another such game. Let's work with hard data here:

Shadow the Hedgehog is a prominent anti-hero in the Sonic the Hedgehog series of video games. He was created to be the ultimate life-form by Dr. Eggman's grandfather. Since then, Shadow has struggled to find the meaning of his existence and rectify his past. He acts with his goals in mind, doing whatever is necessary to achieve them. Because of this, Shadow has fought both alongside and against Sonic the Hedgehog and his friends. Shadow's primary abilities are his supersonic speed and ability to use Chaos Emeralds to manipulate time and space. Shadow participated in the 2008 Olympic Games in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games and later appeared as an Assist Trophy in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

That's my edit copied directly from the history section. The first sentence is a generality. The second sentence comes from Brawl. The third sentence is a generality. The fourth is from Brawl. The fifth is a generality and is meant to establish his relationship with other crossover characters. The sixth sentence is from Brawl (although if you want to get picky, and we should, the part about supersonic speed is not specifically, but he does have speed equal to Sonic's in Olympic Games, which means supersonic speed according to Brawl -- not a direct source, so I'd be fine taking it out.) The next paragraph is information from crossovers as you know.

We can't use lines as a specification for length of generalization of outside information because of window size differences. So, can I ask: what is so bad about three sentences of generalization, especially when the first of them simply states his archytypal role from the series, which is something supported by Brawl with less specific wording?

Don't worry, I wasn't claiming that you approved of a paragraph. What I said was that you were the only opposer who didn't agree with the length of my example, which was a paragraph long. However, this is really a non-issue, since the only power of the oppose side is to keep things as they currently are: and there is currently no set policy, only proposals that say not to include specific information from outside games. When the proposal in question fails Thursday, it won't establish anything we didn't already know. Stumpers! 02:08, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

While I still think that's too long, something mentioning his relation to Sonic and Gerald Robotnik could be useful. His supersonic speed abilities could easily be merged with his Mario & Sonic information. The Chaos Control information, obviously, should go with his Brawl information. The "ultimate life-form" is definitely something that can be put into the very first sentence. I'm just trying to shorten it now, but also moving information to Mario-based appearance sections so we don't go overboard. And by all means, PLEASE stop making such long rants. It's such a drag reading them. XD My Bloody Valentine

Ha, ha! You know me, once I get beyond 500 characters there's no stopping me before I get to 2,500! How about we remove the bit about him trying to rectify his past? Would that help? Stumpers! 02:59, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, that would work. Edit it once again, Stumpers. We'll see if it's perfect this time. My Bloody Valentine

Should we rename the page?

His full name is Shadow the Hedgehog, and he is referred to as such in many Sonic games. We also have pages like Knuckles the Echidna, which use the full name of the character. Shadow (character) is really generic and it implies that he is from the Super Mario series, not the Sonic the Hedgehog series. I just think it's strange, that's all. (I may put up a proposal on this.) -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 00:03, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Oh wait, no...I had the title for Knuckles' page wrong. Sorry. Still, does anyone else think that we should rename this? I'm too busy to do a proposal at the moment. -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 16:39, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

The pages were moved to their current names due to this proposal. Blinker (talk) 17:27, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

"No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old." Well, that proposal is over six weeks old, so maybe we could do a new proposal to reverse it? SeanWheeler (talk) 03:07, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

I'd be up for reversing it. -- FanOfYoshi 05:20, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Okay, that makes complete sense now that I've seen that proposal. I still have a problem that we call him Shadow (character), though. It's a little vague. I think the best decision would be to rename it to something like Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog) or Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog series), but we don't have to use his full name. Is that a good compromise? Also, renaming this page would make it a lot easier for readers to find the page that they're looking for, because there is already a page named Shadow on the wiki. The names are just too similar right now in my opinion. I think I'll make a proposal for this. -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 14:33, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Rename to "Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog)"

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Saturday, November 9, 2024, 09:59 GMT

My main argument for renaming this page is posted in the above discussion, but I'll put it here too for those who missed it. The name Shadow (character) gives very little information about who the page's subject is, and the name is extremely similar to some other character pages. This may cause confusion for readers who are trying to find these pages, as they may end up in the wrong spot due to the similarities. Therefore, I think we should rename this page to Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog). It's more descriptive, and it prevents confusion with the aforementioned pages. We can still follow this proposal's guidelines and not use Shadow's full name in the page title. Renaming this page would be similar to how the aforementioned proposal renamed Jet the Hawk to Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog).

Proposer: FanOfRosalina2007 (talk)
Deadline: July 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Rename to "Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog)"

1. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) As proposer.

Keep as is

1. Arend (talk) Recently, a proposal (in regards of how to handle crossover characters and identifiers) has passed with a vast majority for the outcome to prioritize identifiers for only less culturally-prominent subject and give priority to the most prominent one. Renaming this article to the proposed Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog), literally goes against that. If anything, this article should be renamed to just Shadow, while the current article with that name should be renamed to Shadow (enemy) or Shadow (Super Mario RPG), because according to that proposal outcome, one of the most prominent Sonic the Hedgehog characters that makes a playable appearance in every single Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games entry from the start clearly should have priority over a random Super Mario RPG enemy that only appeared in that one game and its remake. And so should Jet the Hawk have priority over a random golfer from Advance Tour, btw.
2. Hewer (talk) The current name perfectly follows identifier rules - in fact, it already did even before the proposal Arend is talking about, as this is the only character using the title "Shadow" on this wiki. The highest priority identifier in policy is "type of thing" (character in this case), and since that already adequately distinguishes the subject, we have no need to make the identifier more specific than it needs to be. The argument that this could "cause confusion" is also weak in my opinion - no one will look up "Shadow character", and if they look up "Shadow" they get taken to the Mario RPG enemy's page with its handy disambiguation at the top. "Shadow Characters" is an especially weak argument as it's an unofficial name and is a redirect anyway (to another unofficial name). Jet the Hawk also doesn't work as an argument - unlike Shadow, we can't use "character" for him since the other Jet is also a character.
3. SeanWheeler (talk) I would only be up for moving this page if it's back to Shadow the Hedgehog. I don't want Sonic in his page title. Sonic was one of the titles shortened by that proposal, so it makes no sense that his friends get his full name in their titles when Sonic himself doesn't. And if Sonic would be the next character to get the "(Sonic the Hedgehog)" series tag, he'd be Sonic (Sonic the Hedgehog). Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog) is so close to his original name, that putting Sonic in the title would just make me mad. I don't think anyone who voted to shorten the names of the Sonic characters and Fox McCloud really thought it through. But I'll settle for Shadow (character) over slapping Sonic on his name.

Comments

The page should be named "Shadow the Hedgehog". I read the above discussion and I still disagree. Shadow2 (talk) 17:02, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Would need another proposal to overturn this one. All of his Mario-related appearances primarily call him just "Shadow". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:59, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

I think it's a bit baffling that there's not an option to rename this to "Shadow" and rename the original Shadow article to "Shadow (enemy)" or "Shadow (Super Mario RPG)". That would be most in line with the option that passed in this proposal... the option that the proposer of THIS ONE voted for, too. rend (talk) (edits) 17:55, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Seeing as there's a bunch of different shadows, and Mario RPG isn't too obscure a game (especially with the pretty recent remake), I could see "Shadow" without an identifier being the disambiguation, similar to Red. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:59, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Wow, okay. Umm...I don't know what to do. I obviously have a really bad handle on all of this, so...I guess this is gonna fail. I'll let it play out. I'm really sorry. :( -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 21:38, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Huh? What are you sorry for? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 22:10, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

For not knowing and understanding wiki stuff. I mean, look at Arend's above comment; I literally contradicted myself!! Look at my vote for that proposal they linked! My last proposal (in Talk:Sparkle) failed because I hadn't correctly understood and thought through everything, so...I dunno. I just feel stupid, that's all. I'm going to see how this proposal goes, and I'll probably make another proposal that correctly renames this page in accordance with the proposal I mentioned in my argument and hope that it goes better. (I'm also just naturally hard on myself whenever I make mistakes.) -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 22:22, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Well, talk page proposals can still be edited within the first 6 days of their creation, according to the proposal rules. You can still add an option or two to your proposal until July 22 has passed. Also, I'm sorry for making you feel terrible. rend (talk) (edits) 01:20, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

We should have made a MarioWiki proposal to overturn that proposal that shortened crossover character names. I mean, Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog)? Shadow has the same surname as Sonic. We're just inserting Sonic and parenthesis to the original page title. Feels unnecessary if you ask me. Shadow the Hedgehog is a better name and anyone could tell that he's a Sonic character. Will we have to wait another month after this talk page proposal to change it back? SeanWheeler (talk) 17:57, July 18, 2024 (EDT)