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| Why is this? Because echoes, were designed to be full on clones, because of balancing reasons. Lucina got no changes to differentiate her further from Marth. Same with Dark Pit (except his arrows were tweaked to not be straight up inferior). Sakurai even said this in Smash 4, and since echoes still share patch changes, it's highly likely this carried over to Ultimate. [https://sourcegaming.info/2018/08/22/more-information-about-the-smash-direct-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-561/ Even in an interview Sakurai rather talked about making the artwork of a character as a hard point and not the actual balance.] It's also why Daisy, Richter and Dark Samus have aesthetic changes and no actual meaningful differences. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 07:48, 23 February 2019 (EST) | | Why is this? Because echoes, were designed to be full on clones, because of balancing reasons. Lucina got no changes to differentiate her further from Marth. Same with Dark Pit (except his arrows were tweaked to not be straight up inferior). Sakurai even said this in Smash 4, and since echoes still share patch changes, it's highly likely this carried over to Ultimate. [https://sourcegaming.info/2018/08/22/more-information-about-the-smash-direct-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-561/ Even in an interview Sakurai rather talked about making the artwork of a character as a hard point and not the actual balance.] It's also why Daisy, Richter and Dark Samus have aesthetic changes and no actual meaningful differences. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 07:48, 23 February 2019 (EST) |
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| :Dr. Mario is mostly the same character he was in ''Smash 4'', and his stats are actually identical to Mario's under the hood, but are altered using special multipliers that make him slower but stronger.
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| :Also, his weight, falling speed, fast falling speed and gravity, as well as his size, proportions, all non-attack animations (except for on-screen appearance, idle animation, idle poses, taunts and victory poses), all facial expressions, all of his voice clips, and all attack animations except for back throw, down aerial and side special are completely identical to Mario's.
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| :He was also balanced relative to Mario back in ''Smash 4'' alongside the other two clones, which still appears to be the case for him. Based on the evidence we have, it seems that the only real reason why Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter is purely because of the fact that this would result in him not being grouped with the ''Melee'' characters under the character numbering system used on the character selection screen, which is clearly what Sakurai wanted him to be.
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| :Also, Ken is actually semi-clone, as he has more completely different non-cloned moves than Dr. Mario does. The only reason why most Echo Fighters are so similar to their fighters is because they hardly had any development time was put into them. It's possible that all newcomer Echo Fighters (except for Richter, who was developed simultaneously alongside Simon, and Ken, for obvious reasons) were actually added after work on all other characters was completed, similar to the six ''Melee'' clones, as well as Wolf, Toon Link and Jigglypuff in ''Brawl''.
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| :Young Link was meant to be a legacy clone of Link as he appears in ''Brawl'', rather than a straight-up semi-clone like Toon Link. He and Link were separately developed using Link as a base. Although Pichu's development process seems the most similar to that of a semi-clone, it hardly received any new moves to differentiate it from Pikachu, barring its new forward tilt, which is electric just like Pikachu's.
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| :Aside from the fact that they are grouped together with the fighters they are based on under the numbering system and on the character selection screen as well, and the fact that they can be stacked with the fighters they are based on, the Echo Fighter label has no actual in-game purpose, and exists solely for marketing purposes.
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| :The only character whose reasoning for not being an Echo Fighter has explicitly been confirmed is Isabelle. Not only are her proportions considerably different from Villager's (which is why none of her non-attack animations are even remotely identical) due to being taller and slimmer (which prevents her from reusing Villager's attacks and animations), but Sakurai didn't feel that many of Villager's moves suited Isabelle very well either. All of your talk about why Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter is pure speculation ignoring the fact that Sakurai merely wanted him to be grouped with the unlockable ''Melee'' characters under the numbering system.
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| :In fact, Sakurai explicitly confirmed that Ken is an Echo Fighter solely because he said so, even in spite of his obvious gameplay differences. This confirms that the Echo Fighter label is purely arbitrary.
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| :Admittedly, the only reason you're constantly talking about Echo Fighters is because Daisy (your waifu) was made into one (and was the first new one revealed), Memoryman. If she was without being an Echo Fighter, if the Echo Fighter label didn't exist, or if she wasn't a playable character at all, then you likely wouldn't have talked about Echo Fighters in ''Ultimate'' like you constantly have been doing since E3 2018. [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 02:16, 25 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Note that I disagree with you too. Also, ''please'' stop saying ''Smash 4'', that's an unofficial fan term that's extremely annoying (and outright defies official word; officially, the ''only'' 4th game is the 3DS one). Anyways, "clone" is not an official term, it's a fan jargon. We don't use fan jargon. Smashwiki, which is fandom-oriented, does, but it's still ultimately confusing for people outside that circle (making it useless as a research resource). Anyways, don't say "clone" in the articles, don't add your own opinions, just be reasonable, OK? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:30, 25 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::I won't say "clone" (which refers to characters with derivative movesets) or "Smash 4" (which refers to ''Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/Nintendo 3DS'') again, okay? Memoryman3 is equally as guilty of doing that as me.
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| :::Anyway, was trying to rebut the stupid things Memoryman3 said in an attempt to restrict the Echo Fighter label so it cannot include any other characters with derivative movesets, only the handful few that were labeled as such. He's a crazy Daisy fan who I think should be banned from this wiki. SmashWiki was able to maintain its status quo and block him permanently in part thanks to my efforts. The fact that you somehow accept Memoryman3's untrue statements and somehow are '''welcoming''' of him in spite of that is downright disturbing to me. I believe that everything I have said so far is fully accurate. [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 03:55, 25 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::I wasn't agreeing with him, either. I think you both need to calm down a little. He may be wrong about the main point, but the manner in which you are responding is not painting you in a good light either. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:53, 25 February 2019 (EST)
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| Oh and Dr Mario got additional changes to seperate him from Mario. His Super Sheet now has a 1.6x multiplier instead of Mario’s 1.5x. His Final Smash also got changed to be slower than Mario’s and last longer. His intital dash is a bunch slower than Mario’s, and his pills now bounce opponents upwards leading to followups and kill confirms that Mario lacks. He’s not an echo because his gameplay is much more different than Mario’s, in a vein that echoes are not. His shared animations have nothing to do with this. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 04:27, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Dr. Mario's initial dash, like all of his other mobility attributes (except for his weight, falling speed, fast falling speed, gravity and traction), is actually identical to Mario's under the hood but affected by the multipliers. The multipliers (retained because he's based directly on his ''for 3DS / Wii U'' appearance) have merely been strengthened so he's even slower but even stronger relative to Mario, but the claim that he's not an Echo Fighter because of his speed and strength is based entirely on a stupid Echo Fighter definition that doesn't come from Sakurai's columns and interviews (the only reliable source when it comes to Echo Fighters), but rather from Japanese Nintendo press releases from a lower-level employee at Nintendo Co., Ltd.'s planning department by the name of Hiro P., who knows nothing about the actual development process of derivative fighters like the Echo Fighters; the definition may be supported by the fact that none of the Echo Fighters have significant changes to their attributes other than Ken Masters walking and running faster, but remember that having different attributes and/or a different playstyle while retaining a derivative moveset is the '''purpose''' of Echo Fighters (and past derivative characters) in the first place, and laziness and/or the lack of enough development time is arguably the main reason why most of the officially-labeled ones in ''Ultimate'' are so similar, not a stupidly strict unofficial definition that you use to gatekeep Dr. Mario from the Echo Fighter label. The Echo Fighter label has absolutely no correlation whatsoever to how similar a character is to the fighter they are based on, and merely exists to show that certain newcomers (and for unknown reasons, returning veterans Dark Pit and Lucina but not Dr. Mario) were directly developed using other characters as a base, with their movesets and animations primarily derived from such characters.
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| :Dr. Mario will forever be a ''de facto'' Echo Fighter to me, mainly because of most of his animations being completely identical, and the fact that he has more similarities to Mario than any other character who isn't labeled as an Echo Fighter (even Young Link and Pichu). [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 06:57, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| Name me an echo fighter who has lower jumps and different physics in general. Ken’s physics are completely identical sans walk and run speed which was increased by 10% (because he was faster in Street Fighter 2 Turbo). Dark Pit and Lucina are WAYYY more similar in playstyle than Dr Mario is. That’s why they are labeled as such. Echo Fighters are literally labeled as playing nearly identically to their base from the beginning. That definition you listed as fake on the site? It’s completely true. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 14:44, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| I don't see the point to this discussion. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:14, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Memoryman3 is the problem here. He's making up stupid BS because of his extreme obsession with Daisy (and the fact that she was the first revealed Echo Fighter in ''Ultimate''). [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 04:49, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| It's clear that you and Memoryman3 have a beef with each other, you keep edit warring left and right without any concern for the quality of articles, stop undoing each other edits just because you don't like one another. If neither of you can't come up with a good definition of what an echo fighter is, then stop it altogether and leave it to the administrators or something, just stop, it's getting annoying and out of hand.
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| --[[User:CastleResearch|CastleResearch]] ([[User talk:CastleResearch|talk]]) 12:46, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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| :No edit war is currently happening...? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:50, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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| Then why do they keep reverting each other's articles? --[[User:CastleResearch|CastleResearch]] ([[User talk:CastleResearch|talk]]) 12:54, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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| :The edit war happened a month ago. If this pertains to anything happening on Smash Wiki (which there doesn't seem to be anything presently happening there, either), take it up with the admins there. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:56, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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| The thing is they keep reverting the same part of the article and the reason I'm complaining is because this is not SmashWiki and they are treating it as such, they can do whatever they want there, but leave MarioWiki out it. Anyway I'm getting tired of this stupid feud between them.
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| --[[User:CastleResearch|CastleResearch]] ([[User talk:CastleResearch|talk]]) 13:03, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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| :Both users had barely done any of that, all of which were a while ago, and they are just arguing on a talk page which is not edit warring. Even then, this conversation ended nearly a month ago. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 13:05, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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