Editing User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)/Super Mario (franchise) Rewrite

== "Subseries" ==

Sorry for not being more clear before on the series template talk page. I was not saying that your reasoning for calling the 3D ''Super Mario'' games the "''Super Mario'' subseries" ''was'' to distinguish them as the "MAINLINE mainline games". My point was that the terminology gives that impression, regardless of intent. My suggestion is that if you ''do'' want to divide the mainline games into multiple "subseries" (which I still do not recommend), then a system like this would make more sense:
* ''Super Mario'' (series):
** ''Super Mario Bros.'' (subseries):
*** ''Super Mario Bros.''
*** ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels''
*** ''Super Mario Bros. 2''
*** ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*** ''Super Mario World''
*** ''New Super Mario Bros.'' (sub-subseries):
**** ''New Super Mario Bros.''
**** ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''
**** ''New Super Mario Bros. 2''
**** ''New Super Mario Bros. U''
*** ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''
** ''Super Mario Land'' (subseries):
*** ''Super Mario Land''
*** ''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins''
** ''Super Mario 64''
** ''Super Mario Sunshine''
** ''Super Mario Galaxy'' (subseries):
*** ''Super Mario Galaxy''
*** ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''
** ''Super Mario 3D'' (subseries):
*** ''Super Mario 3D Land''
*** ''Super Mario 3D World''
** ''Super Mario Maker'' (subseries):
*** ''Super Mario Maker''
*** ''Super Mario Maker 2''
** ''Super Mario Run''
** ''Super Mario Odyssey''

I believe this makes more sense than calling all the 2D platformers one subseries and all the 3D platformers a different subseries. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 14:08, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:I already have two project pages for subseries [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Super Mario Bros. (series)|here]] and [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Super Mario 3D (series)|here]], based on what I've said before. The ''Land'' games are their own series, as are the ''Maker'' games, while ''Run'' is its own thing judging by how the announcement for ''Bros. Wonder'' was worded. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:25, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:Hmmm... ok, Super Mario Maker being in the main series is a good point, but honestly the 3D platformers are a whole separate group, and Super Mario Land 1 & 2 fits more within Super Mario Bros. (sub-series). So this is kinda what I had:
::* ''Super Mario'' (series):
::** ''Super Mario Bros.'' (subseries):
::*** ''Super Mario Bros.''
::*** ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels''
::*** ''Super Mario Bros. 2''
::*** ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
::*** ''Super Mario World''
::*** ''New Super Mario Bros.'' (sub-subseries):
::**** ''New Super Mario Bros.''
::**** ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''
::**** ''New Super Mario Bros. 2''
::**** ''New Super Mario Bros. U''
::**** ''Super Mario Run''
::*** ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''
::** ''Super Mario Land'' (sub-suberies):
::*** ''Super Mario Land''
::*** ''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins''
::** ''Super Mario (subseries)''
::*** ''Super Mario 64''
::*** ''Super Mario Sunshine''
::*** ''Super Mario Galaxy'' (sub-subseries):
::**** ''Super Mario Galaxy''
::**** ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''
::*** ''Super Mario 3D'' (sub-subseries):
::**** ''Super Mario 3D Land''
::**** ''Super Mario 3D World''
::*** ''Super Mario Odyssey''
::** ''Super Mario Maker'' (subseries):
::*** ''Super Mario Maker''
::*** ''Super Mario Maker 2''
::Of course, this is the GENERAL order, and doesn't include remakes, ports, or collections. EDIT: Oh fudge, Doc, edit conflict. Anyways, Run fits with NSMB(sss) because of its graphics, enemy choices, etc., while Land fits with SMB(ss) because they're 2D, various concepts from those games are used in other games, etc. And the whole reason I even made the rewrite was because I was inspired by your project pages! [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:31, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::Oh, this also doesn't include any other series within the franchise, or Mario-related other franchises in general. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:33, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::It does make some sense to group the 2D games together and the 3D games together (like what Wikipedia's navigational template for the series does), but I would ''strongly'' recommend finding a better term for the 3D games than "the ''Super Mario'' subseries". Yes, that is the common portion of their titles, but it's ''also'' the common portion of the titles of the games in what you've labeled "the ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries", since you're counting ''Super Mario Land'' as a subseries of ''Super Mario Bros.'' and ''Super Mario Run'' as a ''New Super Mario Bros.'' game. "''Super Mario''" is not a useful label for referring to a subset of the ''Super Mario'' series. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 14:48, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::Good point, maybe ''Super Mario (3D) (sub-series)''?? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:49, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Perhaps "''Super Mario'' (2D subseries)" and "''Super Mario'' (3D subseries)"? I'd still prefer not to use the subseries label at all however; the ideal name for the subset in question is "3D platformers in the ''Super Mario'' series". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 14:59, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Well, yeah, that's what I was going for, but the 2D naming is good! [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:01, May 7, 2024 (EDT)

== Section heading question ==
{{talk}}
Would the end goal of this be to change the ''Super Mario'' series headings to ''Super Mario Bros.'' series and the 3D installments to ''Super Mario'' series (i.e.: ===''Super Mario Bros.'' series=== and ===''Super Mario'' series===)? While they're all platforming games starring Mario, it seems they've become different enough from one another at this point, and the "Super Mario Bros." series name is even [[Super_Mario_(series)#cite_note-1|backed by an official source]], so I think on Nintendo's part, they've been aiming to further separate the 2D and 3D ''Super Mario'' platforming games into their own thing, with all the new installments done in recent times. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:50, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:GOSH DARN IT! MY GOOD SUBSERIES NAMES DESTROYED BY SUPER MARIO BROS. WONDER! Guess I'll have to change them. :sad: :-(. EDIT: DARN IT ANOTHER EDIT CONFLICT! Of course, you do have a point of the separation part.[[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:53, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::Yeah, maybe we can gather more input from others before making such a change. I'd be down for it. Not only does that ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' source apply, but ''Super Mario 3D All-Stars'' seems like a milestone point of when they wanted to make the separation between the two more clear. It's not entirely a foreign concept, since Yoshi's Woolly World, for example, would supposedly seem part of the ''Yoshi's Island'' series, except it's not, just like Wario World isn't of the ''Wario Land'' series. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:06, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::I agree. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:14, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:To be clear, the sources that make a distinction between ''Super Mario Bros.'' games and other ''Super Mario'' games generally do not include ''all'' 2D ''Super Mario'' games as part of the ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries. ''Super Mario Run'' and the ''Super Mario Maker'' games are explicitly not ''Super Mario Bros.'' games, but this wiki considers them ''Super Mario'' games due to their inclusion on official websites as part of the series. Separating out the ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries in a way consistent with official sources would not be equivalent to separating the 2D and 3D ''Super Mario'' games from each other. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 15:16, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::The source of the Super Mario Bros. series name is from Super Mario Run itself, within an officially released game. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:23, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::Right, and that source refers to ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' as having been released 11 years after the "last side-scrolling entry", referring to ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. All side-scrolling games released between ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' and ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' are, officially, not entries in "the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series of side-scrolling action games". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 15:28, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::I do agree with you, as I had just now noticed this. ''Super Mario Maker'' and ''Super Mario Run'' seem to put enough emphasis on different mechanics to make me think they could stand out almost in the manner of spinoffs. The "Super Mario" title doesn't just have to refer to the mainline platformers. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:30, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Yes, it would make sense to stop considering ''Run'' and the ''Maker'' games mainline, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider mainline status of Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Maker 2, and Super Mario Run|a proposal about that exact thing]] was made around the time ''Super Mario Run'' stated they're not ''Super Mario Bros.'' games, and it was very strongly rejected. I don't expect a new proposal with an even more radical change to the wiki's categorization of the mainline series to go any better. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 15:40, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, no. Keep them. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:45, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::Eh, but the wiki itself does do stuff that isn't what I would call "consistent with official sources". [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:19, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::Here's an example on [[User:Super Mario RPG/sandbox|my sandbox page]] of the Goomba article having split sections between the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series and ''Super Mario'' series.  [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:20, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::Very good! [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:25, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Thank you. I updated the sections a bit since the in-game source (''Super Mario Run'') said SMB Wonder comes about twenty years after the last mainline ''Super Mario'' side-scroller, so I think ''Super Mario Maker'' subseries is more a spinoff series and ''Super Mario Run'' a spinoff game just from the fact that it's not on a Nintendo console. 15:32, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Ok. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:45, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 84: / Line 84: @@
 :::::Yes, it would make sense to stop considering ''Run'' and the ''Maker'' games mainline, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider mainline status of Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Maker 2, and Super Mario Run|a proposal about that exact thing]] was made around the time ''Super Mario Run'' stated they're not ''Super Mario Bros.'' games, and it was very strongly rejected. I don't expect a new proposal with an even more radical change to the wiki's categorization of the mainline series to go any better. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 15:40, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
 ::::::Yeah, no. Keep them. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:45, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::::But keep them where? They're officially not ''Super Mario Bros.'' games, and the suggested benefit of making the distinction in the first place is so the 3D games can be separated from the 2D games. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 15:46, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::::I would keep Maker in the series itself, not any subseries, and make them related, but Super Mario Run, for what I can tell, is a NSMB game. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 16:47, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::::::But ''Super Mario Run'' itself suggests that it's not part of the same subseries as ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 16:59, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::::::...Well, this is quite the dilemma. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 17:11, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
 ::Eh, but the wiki itself does do stuff that isn't what I would call "consistent with official sources". [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:19, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
 :::Here's an example on [[User:Super Mario RPG/sandbox|my sandbox page]] of the Goomba article having split sections between the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series and ''Super Mario'' series.  [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:20, May 7, 2024 (EDT)