Editing Template talk:Super Mario games

== Mario Clash - a 3D game? ==
Do you really think [[Mario Clash]] fits into the "Mario 3D series" category? I don't think it does. It's just two-dimensional gameplay that happens on two different layers. It doesn't have any similarity to Super Mario 64 and any Mario games after that, as it's clearly an extended version of the original Mario Bros. game. I think we should put it among the 2D series games instead. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 17:04, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I agree with Cobold. We don't have [[New Super Mario Bros.]] as 3D, despite it having 3D graphics, because it 2D gameplay. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User talk:Yoshario|Y]]'''oshario'''</font></span>[[Image:Yoshi_wearing_mario's hat.jpg|30px]]

==Mario Party 3, Mario Kart DS, Mario Super Sluggers, etc.==
What happened to all the spinoffs??? {{User|KS3}}

I don't know, but I am planning to do that thing too. {{User:Ultramariologan/sig}}

==Rules for Other Games==
There are many Mario games so the Other Games section can get crowded.  I suggest non-narrative games such as sports and party games as well as edutainment games be moved to [[Template:Spinoffs]] or to the sub-series' own template.  The rule of inclusion in Other Games should be the operability of Mario.  
*1. Was it developed internally by Nintendo?
*2. Can you play as and control Mario?
*3. If yes, is he in a game with a plot or narrative?
*4. If yes, Is there significant gameplay? (this removes most edutainment games)
This should prevent the template from be cluttered.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] 14:13, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

== Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins ==

I don't understand why they aren't included in the main series... Gameplay-wise, story-wise, developer-wise and platform-wise they are perfectly legit core Mario games. 

I assume the only reason this happened is because they were not includes in the 25th Anniversary list. While that also set me back at the time, I think it's perfectly conceivable that the reason it wasn't included was the fact that, at the time, the Land series was obscure to the younger audience -- considering that 3DS Virtual Console wasn't released at the time. 

The fact that Land 3 introduces Wario Land is much like how World 2 introduces Yoshi's Island, so, that's also not a problem. As a final argument, the 'Land' brand has returned this year with 3D Land, so, I don't think Nintendo and Miyamoto disregards the two Land games from the main Mario series. 

I think the inclusion of SML and SML2 to the template should be reconsidered. :) -[[User:Ash Pokemaster|Ash Pokemaster]] 11:10, 27 December 2011 (EST)

== Why are RPGs listed here? ==
{{talk}}
They're obviously Mario spin-offs: they belong in the Mario spin-off template, not here. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:05, 19 February 2014 (EST)
:I agree that RPGs are spin-offs, but at the same time, the Spinoffs template already has an abundance of games. Just for the sake of making it less clogged, I'd rather keep it here. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 == Mario Clash - a 3D game? ==
 Do you really think [[Mario Clash]] fits into the "Mario 3D series" category? I don't think it does. It's just two-dimensional gameplay that happens on two different layers. It doesn't have any similarity to Super Mario 64 and any Mario games after that, as it's clearly an extended version of the original Mario Bros. game. I think we should put it among the 2D series games instead. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 17:04, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
-:I agree with Cobold. We don't have [[New Super Mario Bros.]] as 3D, despite it having 3D graphics, because it 2D gameplay. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User talk:Yoshario|Y]]'''oshario'''</font></span>[[File:Yoshi Mario Hat SM64DS.png|30px]]
+:I agree with Cobold. We don't have [[New Super Mario Bros.]] as 3D, despite it having 3D graphics, because it 2D gameplay. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User talk:Yoshario|Y]]'''oshario'''</font></span>[[Image:Yoshi_wearing_mario's hat.jpg|30px]]
 ==Mario Party 3, Mario Kart DS, Mario Super Sluggers, etc.==
@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 I think the inclusion of SML and SML2 to the template should be reconsidered. :) -[[User:Ash Pokemaster|Ash Pokemaster]] 11:10, 27 December 2011 (EST)
-I agree. In fact, all mario games with the name "Super Mario" is absolutely part of the main series without question. Technically Super Mario Land 3 is part of the main series whether one accepts it or not. However, exceptions definitely include RPG games which goes without saying. Wikipedia even supports this fact. [[Special:Contributions/27.96.204.95|27.96.204.95]] 20:34, 1 January 2016 (EST)
 == Why are RPGs listed here? ==
+{{talk}}
 They're obviously Mario spin-offs: they belong in the Mario spin-off template, not here. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:05, 19 February 2014 (EST)
 :I agree that RPGs are spin-offs, but at the same time, the Spinoffs template already has an abundance of games. Just for the sake of making it less clogged, I'd rather keep it here. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
-::I think a separate template for RPG's could be good. {{User:KP/sig}}
-:::@Time Turner: I'd prefer accuracy over clogged stuff: I've seen more templates bunched up than this. Adding an extra section in the Mario spin-offs wouldn't hurt. And I don't understand why Mario RPGs should get any more special treatment than say, Mario Kart or Mario Party ? {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:44, 19 February 2014 (EST)
-::::RPGs qualify as Mario spinoffs, however, so it makes more sense that the RPGs go under the [[:Template:Spinoffs|Mario spin-off template]]. I wouldn't keep the RPGs here just because the spinoffs template is big already; that's a weak reason. I prefer accuracy over presentation. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:48, 19 February 2014 (EST)
-== Add Amiibo? ==
-Just a suggestion, want to see what people think. [[File:Toad-brigade model CTTT.png|35px|]][[User:toadbrigade5|<font color=red><big>'''Toad'''</big></font>]][[User talk:toadbrigade5| <small>and his</small><font color=grey> '''brigade!'''</font>]][[File:Toadette model CTTT.png|35px]] 22:08, 14 January 2015 (EST)
-:amiibo isn't a game.
-:-[[User:Toa 95|Toa 95]] ([[User talk:Toa 95|talk]])
-== Super Mario Maker is part of the main series ==
-Super Mario Maker is not a spin-off, or a side game. It is part of the main series and should be listed there asap. [[Special:Contributions/27.96.204.95|27.96.204.95]] 20:33, 1 January 2016 (EST)
-:It's actually listed under "Miscellaneous" but listing it alongside the mainstream games feels... weird; even if it ''is'' a mainstream game, it's a very unconventional one being more focused on being a tool rather than an actual game. In the end, I'll put in under "platformers" but under "other". {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:31, 9 January 2016 (EST)
-::I think it's fine in Misc, although part of me also wants to say put it in the Art Utilities area and just figure out a broader name for that category. I just worry that having it in the "other" platformer area might just make it seem conspicuously ''not'' in with the other "Super Mario" platformers. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 00:35, 9 January 2016 (EST)
-:::Elaborate on the last point? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:46, 9 January 2016 (EST)
-Irrespective of it feels weird or not, Mario Maker is listed as part of the "main" platformer series in that 30th anniversary book. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 10:00, 9 January 2016 (EST)
-:Bump, but so are the ''Super Mario Land'' games. I'm confused. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 01:09, 31 January 2016 (EST)
-== Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario ==
-Shouldn't these two distinct series be split based on their respective series instead of being under a single role-playing category (since "Role-playing" is an extremely broad genre and it arguably encompasses more games than just Mario & Luigi, Paper Mario, and that one Square Enix one. Though it raises the question of what that Square Enix RPG will go...) I think we should translate the RPG similar to how "Sports Games" and "Crossovers" are managed, split them off to two series, and maybe put SMRPG in a misc section {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:39, 9 January 2016 (EST)
-== Renaming to "Mario franchise" ==
-Shouldn't we also include nonvideo game media in this template, or should we rename it to keep the scope to just the games? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 17:50, 17 August 2016 (EDT)
-== Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle ==
-This game should be in "Crossovers" not "Miscellaneous", as that game is a crossover with the Raving Rabbids series.{{unsigned|Searingjet}}
-:The Crossover category is limited to the ''Mario & Sonic'' and ''Super Smash Bros.'' series at the moment, otherwise, ''[[Fortune Street]]'' would be there as well. We may need to restructure the template... {{User:Alex95/sig}} 22:28, 18 June 2017 (EDT)
-::Was just about to reply, lol. But yeah, an "Other" section has been added to "Crossovers" for any non-Mario & Sonic and Smash crossovers. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:35, 18 June 2017 (EDT)
-== Split into smaller templates? ==
-This template is already quite large and will get larger in the future. One can imagine what it will look like decades into the future. Smaller templates can be made from the left most column so there will be one for platformers, rpgs, sports, etc.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 01:49, 26 January 2019 (EST)
-:Or maybe have one template with smaller templates inside of it? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:17, 26 January 2019 (EST)
-::Doc's idea seems most suitable to me. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 02:22, 26 January 2019 (EST)
-:::I had considered that with the numerous Koopa templates before, but decided that the clashing colors would be too much. This, on the other hand, is a more viable situation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:33, 26 January 2019 (EST)
-:::I agree to that.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 03:27, 26 January 2019 (EST)
-::::I agree with Doc's idea as this template is massive and it always felt surprising that we did not have a template for Mario Kart games, Mario Tennis games and other spin-off series with a large amount of entries so turning this template into one with several templates would make it easier to navigate. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 7:37 January 26 2019 (EST)
-== Super Mario Bros. 35 ==
-This game should be in the "Other" part of the platformer section, as [https://mario.nintendo.com/history/ it is not a mainline Mario game]. --[[User:Mjmannella|Mjmannella]] ([[User talk:Mjmannella|talk]]) 22:20, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
-:That was your tenth edit, so you're autoconfirmed and can edit it now. {{User:DarkNight/sig}} 22:46, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
-== Super Mario Maker (2)? ==
-This is listed as a main game, but according to the official Super Mario Encyclopedia (https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia) it is **not** a mainline Mario game. {{unsigned|128.0.100.67}}
-:See this [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_52#Merge_Super_Mario_Land_series.2C_Super_Mario_Maker.2C_Super_Mario_Run_into_.22Super_Mario.22_series|proposal]]; the [https://mario.nintendo.com/history/ official website] also lists it among the others. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 05:56, September 13, 2020 (EDT)
-[[Dr. Mario]] should be listed as (NES/Game Boy), not just (NES). - [[User:DKL|DKL]] ([[User talk:DKL|talk]]) 13:45, June 18, 2021 (EDT)
-== Length ==
-This navtemp is, quite frankly, getting absurdly long. There are multiple things we can do about this; we can outright split it into several smaller templates, or what I would prefer, break it down into internal templates akin to what we do with the gallery navtemp. Anyways, it is indeed very large, and also the way it is set up now, the ''Kart'' series is several layers of separation away from the other racing games listed as miscellaneous "sports" games (of which racing, including ''Kart'' is indeed a subgenre of). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:33, June 3, 2023 (EDT)
-:Nearly a year later, but I do have a WIP "idea" for the Mario franchise that WOULD, when the layering is applied to this template, fix this issue. Of course, it's WIP. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 08:36, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:I think making individual subsections of the template collapsible like the Galleries template makes the most sense. I could even see a case for combining this with the other top-level Games navigational templates if the "this template is way too big" issue is solved; none of the "list of games" articles group games together by series like this, so using one all-encompassing navigational template for every game regardless of which of the franchises it's in could be useful. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 09:22, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::Yeah, true, as well as using the layering from my WIP "idea" of a Mario franchise rework. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 09:52, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::Hmm, it's a decent concept, but I'm not sure about some of the specific choices your model is using. A lot of it seems to be based on conjecture. For the mainline games in particular, I don't think calling 2D platformers "the ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries" and the 3D platformers "the ''Super Mario'' subseries" is justified, and for that matter introducing a ''third'' thing that "''Super Mario'' game" means on this wiki would just be confusing. I'd suggest (in decreasing order of how much sense I think they make) either keeping the mainline 2D and 3D games together as one thing (the current system), subdividing by genre without referring to the individual subgroups as "subseries" (the system Wikipedia uses for [[wikipedia:Template:Super Mario|its ''Super Mario'' series template]]), or subdividing entirely based on branding (''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries (including the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' sub-subseries), ''Super Mario Land'' subseries, ''Super Mario Galaxy'' subseries, ''Super Mario 3D'' subseries (as in ''3D Land'' and ''3D World''), ''Super Mario Maker'' subseries, and miscellaneous games that are part of the ''Super Mario'' series without being in a subseries). {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 10:52, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::Well, to be honest, the "sub-series" stuff was more based on "2D is ''Super Mario Bros.'' because that's the main bit of their titles, and 3D is ''Super Mario'' because there's no ''Bros.'' in their titles, Super Mario Land and New Super Mario Bros. are sub-subseries because they deviate enough to be sub-series, but not enough to be separate from ''Super Mario Bros.'', etc." The misc. stuff I haven't got too, so good catch! [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 11:03, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::''64'', ''Sunshine'', ''Galaxy'' / ''2'', ''Odyssey'', etc. are also in the ''Super Mario 3D'' series, going by ''Super Mario 3D All-Stars''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:13, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::Ah, yes, I did use the 3D All-Stars argument of "''64'', ''Sunshine'', & ''Galaxy'' are part of the same series as ''Super Mario 3D Land/World'', so use the shared name, hence ''Super Mario''". [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 11:16, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::In a purely branding-based approach, I suppose that makes sense. However, none of the other 3D ''Super Mario'' games are titled "''Super Mario 3D'' something" individually, and in terms of game design ''3D Land'' and ''3D World'' are the same "type" of 3D ''Mario'' as each other. I still think it makes more sense to not use this "subseries" concept in the first place, but if the ''Land'' games count as a subseries, I'd see no reason not to also specifically count ''3D Land'' and ''3D World'' as a subseries. (And, for the record, using titles of games as a high-priority deciding factor for how to classify them isn't a great idea anyway. That's how you get things like [[Mario Bros. (Game & Watch)|''Mario Bros.'' (Game & Watch)]] being classified as a "reissue" of an arcade game with completely different gameplay and theming that was released three months later.) {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 11:35, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::Bruh. Should the ''Super Mario'' sub-series be split into 2 sub-sub-series?? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 11:38, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::My personal opinion is that I don't think it makes sense to refer to a "''Super Mario'' subseries" in the first place. Yes, there ''are'' official sources that refer to a ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries, but there's no need or justification to put everything ''else'' into a confusingly-named subseries that shares its name with both the series and franchise it's a part of. It gives the impression that the 3D ''Super Mario'' games are to the ''Super Mario'' series what the ''Super Mario'' series is to the ''Super Mario'' franchise, as in "The mainline games are the platformers, but the MAINLINE mainline games are specifically the ''3D'' platformers". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:02, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::::This is the wrong talk page for this... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:13, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::::{{@|JanMisali}}NO THAT'S NOT WHY I DID THAT! IT'S BECAUSE OF THE NAMES!!!!!!! Plus, {{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}}this started out as what it was, then I brought up my idea, that lead to this. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 13:31, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::::Yeah, this has gotten too far off-topic, sorry. I'll continue on the talk page for [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)/Super Mario (franchise) Rewrite/Super Mario (series)|the relevant WIP page]]. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 13:48, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::::::WOAH WOAH WOAH! If you want to continue this, continue it [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)/Super Mario (franchise) Rewrite|here!]] [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 13:55, May 7, 2024 (EDT)