Editing Template talk:Mario forms

==Delete this template==
{{TPP}}
I'm not convinced that this template is necessary when [[:Category:Mario's Transformations]] already exists. Ideally, navigation templates exist in lieu of categories because they allow for specificity: [[Template:Bandits]], for example, specifies which entries are characters and which are species, which couldn't be done with a category. I imagine that numerous users would only want to search for the species and not the characters, or vice-versa, so having this distinction is good. With that in mind, what value is there in this template's distinctions? I seriously cannot imagine anyone who is scrolling through Mario's power-ups based on whether or not they are temporary or permanent for the player (and also "other", whose entries seem arbitrary). If a user is looking for the effects of every power-up, then the [[List of power-ups]] is infinitely more useful and practical than the template because it fully details what everything does. This templates uses a level of specificity that doesn't help anyone and just adds more clutter to the pile of navigation templates at the bottom of the page.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 5, 2018, 23:59 GMT 

===Support===
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per proposal.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per Time Turner.
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per proposal.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Alex95}} - <s>"''navigation templates are used for navigating between related pages, as an alternative to categories. Both nav templates and categories are placed at the bottom of pages, but while categories must be clicked on in order to get to a list of related pages, navigation templates contain the links themselves, making the other pages directly accessible from the article that the reader is currently on.''" Per [[MarioWiki:Navigation templates]]. Yes, we have a list of power-ups that is definitely more helpful than both the category and nav template, but the two seem to go together. If it needs to be restructured, however, then it should be done.</s>
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Alex95. Also, have you addressed {{tem|Morphs}}?
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Having a category is not valid grounds for deletion, as we have a category for Goombas. Furthermore, this template separates the transformations out in an easy manner, and they can be accessed from any other page based off of a transformation of Mario, instead of having to use a category, and having to load yet another page from that ("List" also counts within this). I find this template to be perfectly valid, it's at least a near-staple, and not something tenuous like Doors.

===Comments===
@Alex: Users having to click on one extra link to get to the category is not a substantial reason to create a navigation template. If they're so convenient, why haven't we ditched categories entirely in favour of them? Navigation templates are only useful if they actually provide a tangible benefit, and no matter how this template is restructured, I don't see how such a benefit would surface. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 12:18, 19 February 2018 (EST)
:I'll admit that the category is small enough that all the pages can fit on one page, so navigation wouldn't be ''that'' difficult. Thing is that the nav template is easier to access, I've seen many users not know what categories are or how they are used. A collective list on the pages is easier to find and read. The template does have structure issues (shouldn't [[Lucky Cat Mario]] be a regular transformation?), but unless there's a good way to link to the List of power-ups on every page aside from an ugly "see also", I can't support the deletion of this template. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:31, 19 February 2018 (EST)
::The List of power-ups page is accessible by anyone searching "power-up" or "power-ups", which is intuitive, and if categories are so remote and foreign to users that many of them don't know how to use them, why do we have them in the first place? Again, why don't we replace every category with navigation templates if they're that much of a problem? I personally don't even understand how categories are a problem in the first place, considering that any user can figure out what they do just by clicking on them. Even ''then'', if users don't know what they do, our solution should be to educate them. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 12:36, 19 February 2018 (EST)
:::I'm not saying categories are a problem or unnecessary, they group subjects together in a way nav templates don't. [[Power-up]] even redirects to the list, so there's that, but [[Super Mushroom]] doesn't. Maybe having a link to the list in the nav template's header like [[List of power-ups|Mario's Transformations]]? ...But then that would just defeat the purpose of this whole thing, wouldn't it? List of power-ups does list more that aren't listed, like [[1-Up Mushroom]], and I can't find a way to fit that in the template either, and then there's things like [[Template:Mushrooms]] and [[Template:Flowers]] that would ultimately just make the template redundant anyway... Okay, maybe this template is unnecessary, but I still think restructuring is possible, so I'll just adjust my vote.
:::As for educating, perhaps if the "Categories" on the bottom of the screen lead to [[MarioWiki:Categories]] rather than [[Special:Categories]]? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:53, 19 February 2018 (EST)

@Doc: I explained that a navigation template serves no value if it does not organize its information in a way that is any more beneficial than its corresponding category. That's why I brought up the category in the first place (I even used an enemy to illustrate my point, bringing up Goomba does not contradict the point when I made that point myself). I also touch on why the template's divisions do not help the reader, so I'm interested in hearing why you think they help divide the content in an "easy manner". Also, please, explain how a category is less convenient than a template besides clicking on one more link. Is loading up another page so much of an issue? The template is adding more stuff to load to the first page in the first place. It's going to be placed on all of the same pages as the template, so it's not as if any access would be lost if the template was deleted. There's nothing lost here. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 13:14, 19 February 2018 (EST)
:I believe it's an easy manner. A person who had played a game and was looking for an official name might have their search narrowed by whether they lost it after getting hit or after a timer. As for categories, while they're simple and mundane for us, new users may not understand as easily how they work, or even notice the words at the bottom of the screen. I speak from experience there, it took me some years to even see those existed. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:18, 19 February 2018 (EST)
::That's too specific. If anything, they're going to be looking for the power-up based on the game it was in; that's a far more obvious point of reference instead of how the power-up goes away. At that point, they'll go to the game's page, and this template does nothing. And it's not the category's fault if you don't see that it's there. It's right at the bottom of every page, in the same color as every other link. At some point, you're going to at least try to click it. And as I said to Alex, if categories are such a problem, why not replace them with navigation templates entirely? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 13:23, 19 February 2018 (EST)
:::"Too specific" is very subjective, and I object to that. I think it's a fine template, and find the split to be reasonable. Besides, they may be interested in looking at other power-ups from other games in a ''quick'' and ''easy'' manner, and the colorful template is far more user-friendly than the list, which isn't reachable as quickly in my experience. Note how the "browse" on the left doesn't include "power-ups," though it does include the much, much wider "items," which could be better or worse, depending on the user's exact goal. As for categories being a "problem," they aren't. Different people have different manners of thinking and different limitations, and as such either one may be more simple depending on either of those factors for every specific user. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:28, 19 February 2018 (EST)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Delete this template==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-7|keep}}
+I'm not convinced that this template is necessary when [[:Category:Mario's Transformations]] already exists. Ideally, navigation templates exist in lieu of categories because they allow for specificity: [[Template:Bandits]], for example, specifies which entries are characters and which are species, which couldn't be done with a category. I imagine that numerous users would only want to search for the species and not the characters, or vice-versa, so having this distinction is good. With that in mind, what value is there in this template's distinctions? I seriously cannot imagine anyone who is scrolling through Mario's power-ups based on whether or not they are temporary or permanent for the player (and also "other", whose entries seem arbitrary). If a user is looking for the effects of every power-up, then the [[List of power-ups]] is infinitely more useful and practical than the template because it fully details what everything does. This templates uses a level of specificity that doesn't help anyone and just adds more clutter to the pile of navigation templates at the bottom of the page.
-I'm not convinced that this template is necessary when [[:Category:Mario forms|Category:Mario's Transformations]] already exists. Ideally, navigation templates exist in lieu of categories because they allow for specificity: [[Template:Bandits]], for example, specifies which entries are characters and which are species, which couldn't be done with a category. I imagine that numerous users would only want to search for the species and not the characters, or vice-versa, so having this distinction is good. With that in mind, what value is there in this template's distinctions? I seriously cannot imagine anyone who is scrolling through Mario's power-ups based on whether or not they are temporary or permanent for the player (and also "other", whose entries seem arbitrary). If a user is looking for the effects of every power-up, then the [[List of power-ups]] is infinitely more useful and practical than the template because it fully details what everything does. This templates uses a level of specificity that doesn't help anyone and just adds more clutter to the pile of navigation templates at the bottom of the page.
 '''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br>
@@ Line 9: / Line 8: @@
 ===Support===
 #{{User|Time Turner}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|LUIGIRULES71}} Per Time Turner.
+#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per Time Turner.
+#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per proposal.
 ===Oppose===
-<s>#{{User|Alex95}} - "''navigation templates are used for navigating between related pages, as an alternative to categories. Both nav templates and categories are placed at the bottom of pages, but while categories must be clicked on in order to get to a list of related pages, navigation templates contain the links themselves, making the other pages directly accessible from the article that the reader is currently on.''" Per [[MarioWiki:Navigation templates]]. Yes, we have a list of power-ups that is definitely more helpful than both the category and nav template, but the two seem to go together. If it needs to be restructured, however, then it should be done.</s><br>
+#{{User|Alex95}} - <s>"''navigation templates are used for navigating between related pages, as an alternative to categories. Both nav templates and categories are placed at the bottom of pages, but while categories must be clicked on in order to get to a list of related pages, navigation templates contain the links themselves, making the other pages directly accessible from the article that the reader is currently on.''" Per [[MarioWiki:Navigation templates]]. Yes, we have a list of power-ups that is definitely more helpful than both the category and nav template, but the two seem to go together. If it needs to be restructured, however, then it should be done.</s>
-<s>#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Having a category is not valid grounds for deletion, as we have a category for Goombas. Furthermore, this template separates the transformations out in an easy manner, and they can be accessed from any other page based off of a transformation of Mario, instead of having to use a category, and having to load yet another page from that ("List" also counts within this). I find this template to be perfectly valid, it's at least a near-staple, and not something tenuous like Doors.</s>
+#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Alex95. Also, have you addressed {{tem|Morphs}}?
-#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Alex95. Also, have you addressed {{tem|Yoshi forms}}?
+#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Having a category is not valid grounds for deletion, as we have a category for Goombas. Furthermore, this template separates the transformations out in an easy manner, and they can be accessed from any other page based off of a transformation of Mario, instead of having to use a category, and having to load yet another page from that ("List" also counts within this). I find this template to be perfectly valid, it's at least a near-staple, and not something tenuous like Doors.
-#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick
-#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Actually, I think it may be better to keep it, but definitely add a link to the list of power-ups page, which can help out users who need more of a description, and perhaps a small restructure to change organisation, but I think keeping it is more useful and beneficial, per all.
-#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
-#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Changing vote, per all.
-#{{user|wildgoosespeeder}} Per all.
-#{{User|Owencrazyboy9}} Per all.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 32: / Line 27: @@
 ::That's too specific. If anything, they're going to be looking for the power-up based on the game it was in; that's a far more obvious point of reference instead of how the power-up goes away. At that point, they'll go to the game's page, and this template does nothing. And it's not the category's fault if you don't see that it's there. It's right at the bottom of every page, in the same color as every other link. At some point, you're going to at least try to click it. And as I said to Alex, if categories are such a problem, why not replace them with navigation templates entirely? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 13:23, 19 February 2018 (EST)
 :::"Too specific" is very subjective, and I object to that. I think it's a fine template, and find the split to be reasonable. Besides, they may be interested in looking at other power-ups from other games in a ''quick'' and ''easy'' manner, and the colorful template is far more user-friendly than the list, which isn't reachable as quickly in my experience. Note how the "browse" on the left doesn't include "power-ups," though it does include the much, much wider "items," which could be better or worse, depending on the user's exact goal. As for categories being a "problem," they aren't. Different people have different manners of thinking and different limitations, and as such either one may be more simple depending on either of those factors for every specific user. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:28, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-::::Why not split the template by color, then? Or by shape, or by what biome they found it in, or any other possibility? I call it specific because users could be searching for any number of characteristics, and it's impossible to cater to all of them when it's impossible to definitely say which one is more likely, therefore it's malignant to only cater to one of them. "Might" is not a strong reason to keep a template, especially when it's only about how they "might" be curious about other items. This is a wiki, whose purpose is to guide readers to the information that they are looking for; our intent shouldn't be to obfuscate information solely to satisfy idle curiosity. Bright colours are not a good reason, either. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 13:36, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-:::::I'd hardly call having a whole bunch of links to related articles right out in the open "obfuscating." If anything, it's the reverse of that, as it's simple to access and simple to use. The "bright colors" I referred to was referring to how it draws the eyes in a "notice this for more" kind of way. Also "biome" would be a terrible way, as all but a few of them are more general in regards to location. And most of them are relatively Mario-shaped. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:39, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-::::::If people are looking for [[Rock Mario]], it does them no good to start talking about [[Bunny Mario]] or [[Flying Squirrel Mario]]. This is what I mean by obfuscation. Yes, I'm aware of what you're talking about, and I stand by what I said; it's non-applicable when every navigation template at the bottom has some colour to it, causing the readers' eyes to be drawn to nothing in particular. Also, "biome" was just an example among many, none of which are any more or less obvious than each other. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 13:45, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-:::::::"Ah, so Mario can turn into a rock form, that's pretty cool! Wonder what else he can turn into? Hey look, a big rectangle with a whole bunch of them listed in it, cool! I can really use this!" I think the color's a little off... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:50, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-::::::::Literally talked about how idle curiosity shouldn't get in the way of people actually finding what they're looking for already, and even then, the category already shows them. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 13:51, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-:::::::::And this is an active hindrance to that in....what manner exactly? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:10, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-::::::::::It's a hindrance to the other navigation templates, and to the entries themselves by using arbitrary division lines (and we've already gone through the song-and-dance as to why they're arbitrary). {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 15:18, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-:::::::::::How is it a hindrance to the other templates? They still show up, just a few pixels lower than if it didn't exist. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:43, 19 February 2018 (EST)
-i'm Honestly Surprised How Many People are Opposing. Turner Makes Good Points and Do We Really need Two Things Which are Basically The same? [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 13:16, 27 February 2018 (EST)
-:Well, as Alex95 mentioned, not many new users can immediately figure out what a category is, making navigation more difficult in a sense. There can be two different ways of navigating the same type of thing. Additionally, as I have pointed out, {{tem|Yoshi forms}} is a similar template that, to my surprise, has not been addressed at all during this proposal, despite its ''obvious'' similarities with this template. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 17:38, 1 March 2018 (EST)