Editing Template talk:MK8

== Proof of Bowser Jr's weight class ==

Since there's been a minor edit war on this Template over whether Bowser Jr is a Lightweight (like in Double Dash and Arcade GPDX) or a Middleweight (like in MK Wii), I think it's high time some sourced evidence was provided-

[[File:Mk8dwcbowserjr.png]]
Video version- https://youtu.be/MX5E68tfSvc?t=15m17s

As you can clearly see, Bowser Jr's kart is the same size as Baby Luigi's (a Lightweight), while the Middleweight Luigi's is clearly larger. He is a Lightweight, end of story. --{{User:Burb}} 14:57, 11 February 2017 (EST)
:Looks can be deceiving though. Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach are classified as medium body frame characters, and yet they're among the heaviest characters in ''Mario Kart 8''. While it's likely that Bowser Jr. will be in the lightweight category, we have yet to figure out if he has a unique stat spread or not. {{User:M&amp;SG/sig}} 18:42, 11 February 2017 (EST)
::To be fair, the template as a whole is deceiving right now. Cat Peach and Female Villager are between Larryweights and Yoshiweights, yet she's classified as Middleweight, based on body frame size. I think we should use body frame sizes for the template.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:11, 11 February 2017 (EST)

All official material for the game states that there are three weight classes. This isn't Mario Kart 7 where Bowser and DK are in different classes; they're both regarded as Heavyweights in 8 regardless of Bowser having a higher weight stat. It doesn't matter that Cat Peach and Female Villager are lighter than all the Middleweights. They are still Middleweights. This isn't even unique to Mario Kart 8. In Super Circuit, Yoshi was heavier than Peach and Toad, and Bowser was heavier than DK and Wario. Both were called a Light and Heavyweight respectively despite the difference. In addition to that there is nothing to suggest that Bowser Jr is going to be a special case like the Metals, and have a frame size that doesn't match his weight stat. "He was Medium in Mario Kart Wii!" isn't a valid point, and it's the only argument that can really be made. All we have to base judgment off is the frame size, and because of that, we should consider him a Lightweight unless some official news actually comes out that says otherwise. --{{User:Burb}} 21:45, 11 February 2017 (EST)
:Actually, it's the site that has three weight classes, the PRIMA guide states:<br />
:<br />
:''Racers in Mario Kart 8 are divided into five categories: Featherweight, Light, Medium, Heavy, and Cruiser. These weight classes are one of the key determining factors in kart and bike performance, influencing how you take and dish out contact with other racers, how well you drift, how much you benefit from drifting, how powerful your Mini-Turbos are, and how well you recover from getting struck by items. As a general rule, lighter-weight racers tend to have great acceleration and cornering, but suffer from lower top speeds and a tendency to get pushed around with great ease by heavier racers. The heavier racers have the highest top speeds in the game, but have issues with cornering, and their acceleration is very poor. Of course, a heavy racer can easily shove aside any smaller and lighter opponent!''<br />
:<br />
:Anyway, neither the PRIMA guide nor the official site classify Cat Peach and Female Villager, their placement is completely arbitrary, if we use the three weights as criterion. We could use the five weights of the PRIMA guide that group together Larryweights and Yoshiweights under the ''Light'' term, which would also group Cat Peach and Female villager with them, if you want.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:34, 11 February 2017 (EST) Last update:--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:53, 11 February 2017 (EST)
::As far as this wiki is concerned, PRIMA is one of the last priority sources to take from. So in this case, official website listing is what we'll display here. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 23:01, 11 February 2017 (EST)
:::Judging by [[MarioWiki:Naming#English and non-English sources|MarioWiki:Naming]], Prima actually takes priority over the site. It falls after the game itself, official manuals, and Nintendo Player's Guides, but before "cartoons, movies, magazines, comics and web content". Granted, this is only for names and not other information, but I assume that the priorities are the same. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 23:20, 11 February 2017 (EST)
:::If we consider the site as inspiration for the three-classes categorization there is a problem with Cat Peach and Female Villager - their weight class is between the two listed on the site (note that that site doesn't consider the frame size, since Pink Gold Peach and Metal Mario are heavy) and they haven't been given a weight class on the site. We can of course leave things as they are and just wait for the website of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe to clarify that, but in the meantime where do we put Bowser Jr.?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:30, 11 February 2017 (EST)

Uhh.....we leave Bowser Jr. as a Lightweight since that's what he seems to be. Nobody's questioning the classes for Dry Bones, Inkling, and King Boo, and there's no more evidence that they are what the Template says they are than there is for Bowser Jr being a Lightweight. As it stands right now, all actual evidence points towards him being Light, and anything regarding him being Middle is speculation based on a single previous entry in the series. As for the PRIMA vs official site topic, I agree with Baby Luigi that the official site is a more valid source than a strategy guide that wasn't even made by Nintendo. Nintendo themselves used the expanded weight class system in MK7 and ditched it in MK8. Female Villager and Cat Peach should both be considered Medium because they're derivative of Male Villager (Female Villager was an alternate in the orignal version of MK8) and Peach, both of whom are Middleweights. --{{User:Burb}} 10:29, 12 February 2017 (EST)
:That "guide that wasn't made by Nintendo", despite its typos, [https://www.primagames.com/games/mario-kart-8/guides/mario-kart-8-eguide/the-racers-and-rides/the-unlockables reports the stats in the format used by the game's files] ([[Mario Kart 8 in-game statistics|points]]) and has the items listed in the probability tables in the same order used in the game's files. It was definitely written in collaboration with Nintendo. I don't think we can say that MK8 didn't follow MK7 and expand upon it even in how the characters are grouped [[Mario_Kart_8#Driver_statistics|if we look at the stats]]. Simply put, the site is outdated and its criteria for categorization cannot be used even for DLC characters. Until the ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'''s site is out, we need other criteria for the template.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:56, 12 February 2017 (EST)
@@ Line 3: / Line 3: @@
 Since there's been a minor edit war on this Template over whether Bowser Jr is a Lightweight (like in Double Dash and Arcade GPDX) or a Middleweight (like in MK Wii), I think it's high time some sourced evidence was provided-
-[[File:MK8 Discussion on Bowser Jrs Weight.png|thumb|left]]
+[[File:Mk8dwcbowserjr.png]]
 Video version- https://youtu.be/MX5E68tfSvc?t=15m17s
-{{br}}
-As you can clearly see, Bowser Jr's kart is the same size as Baby Luigi's (a Lightweight), while the Middleweight Luigi's is clearly larger. He is a Lightweight, end of story. --{{User|Burb}} 14:57, 11 February 2017 (EST)
+As you can clearly see, Bowser Jr's kart is the same size as Baby Luigi's (a Lightweight), while the Middleweight Luigi's is clearly larger. He is a Lightweight, end of story. --{{User:Burb}} 14:57, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 :Looks can be deceiving though. Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach are classified as medium body frame characters, and yet they're among the heaviest characters in ''Mario Kart 8''. While it's likely that Bowser Jr. will be in the lightweight category, we have yet to figure out if he has a unique stat spread or not. {{User:M&amp;SG/sig}} 18:42, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 ::To be fair, the template as a whole is deceiving right now. Cat Peach and Female Villager are between Larryweights and Yoshiweights, yet she's classified as Middleweight, based on body frame size. I think we should use body frame sizes for the template.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:11, 11 February 2017 (EST)
-All official material for the game states that there are three weight classes. This isn't Mario Kart 7 where Bowser and DK are in different classes; they're both regarded as Heavyweights in 8 regardless of Bowser having a higher weight stat. It doesn't matter that Cat Peach and Female Villager are lighter than all the Middleweights. They are still Middleweights. This isn't even unique to Mario Kart 8. In Super Circuit, Yoshi was heavier than Peach and Toad, and Bowser was heavier than DK and Wario. Both were called a Light and Heavyweight respectively despite the difference. In addition to that there is nothing to suggest that Bowser Jr is going to be a special case like the Metals, and have a frame size that doesn't match his weight stat. "He was Medium in Mario Kart Wii!" isn't a valid point, and it's the only argument that can really be made. All we have to base judgment off is the frame size, and because of that, we should consider him a Lightweight unless some official news actually comes out that says otherwise. --{{User|Burb}} 21:45, 11 February 2017 (EST)
+All official material for the game states that there are three weight classes. This isn't Mario Kart 7 where Bowser and DK are in different classes; they're both regarded as Heavyweights in 8 regardless of Bowser having a higher weight stat. It doesn't matter that Cat Peach and Female Villager are lighter than all the Middleweights. They are still Middleweights. This isn't even unique to Mario Kart 8. In Super Circuit, Yoshi was heavier than Peach and Toad, and Bowser was heavier than DK and Wario. Both were called a Light and Heavyweight respectively despite the difference. In addition to that there is nothing to suggest that Bowser Jr is going to be a special case like the Metals, and have a frame size that doesn't match his weight stat. "He was Medium in Mario Kart Wii!" isn't a valid point, and it's the only argument that can really be made. All we have to base judgment off is the frame size, and because of that, we should consider him a Lightweight unless some official news actually comes out that says otherwise. --{{User:Burb}} 21:45, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 :Actually, it's the site that has three weight classes, the PRIMA guide states:<br />
 :<br />
@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 :::If we consider the site as inspiration for the three-classes categorization there is a problem with Cat Peach and Female Villager - their weight class is between the two listed on the site (note that that site doesn't consider the frame size, since Pink Gold Peach and Metal Mario are heavy) and they haven't been given a weight class on the site. We can of course leave things as they are and just wait for the website of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe to clarify that, but in the meantime where do we put Bowser Jr.?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:30, 11 February 2017 (EST)
-Uhh.....we leave Bowser Jr. as a Lightweight since that's what he seems to be. Nobody's questioning the classes for Dry Bones, Inkling, and King Boo, and there's no more evidence that they are what the Template says they are than there is for Bowser Jr being a Lightweight. As it stands right now, all actual evidence points towards him being Light, and anything regarding him being Middle is speculation based on a single previous entry in the series. As for the PRIMA vs official site topic, I agree with Baby Luigi that the official site is a more valid source than a strategy guide that wasn't even made by Nintendo. Nintendo themselves used the expanded weight class system in MK7 and ditched it in MK8. Female Villager and Cat Peach should both be considered Medium because they're derivative of Male Villager (Female Villager was an alternate in the orignal version of MK8) and Peach, both of whom are Middleweights. --{{User|Burb}} 10:29, 12 February 2017 (EST)
+Uhh.....we leave Bowser Jr. as a Lightweight since that's what he seems to be. Nobody's questioning the classes for Dry Bones, Inkling, and King Boo, and there's no more evidence that they are what the Template says they are than there is for Bowser Jr being a Lightweight. As it stands right now, all actual evidence points towards him being Light, and anything regarding him being Middle is speculation based on a single previous entry in the series. As for the PRIMA vs official site topic, I agree with Baby Luigi that the official site is a more valid source than a strategy guide that wasn't even made by Nintendo. Nintendo themselves used the expanded weight class system in MK7 and ditched it in MK8. Female Villager and Cat Peach should both be considered Medium because they're derivative of Male Villager (Female Villager was an alternate in the orignal version of MK8) and Peach, both of whom are Middleweights. --{{User:Burb}} 10:29, 12 February 2017 (EST)
 :That "guide that wasn't made by Nintendo", despite its typos, [https://www.primagames.com/games/mario-kart-8/guides/mario-kart-8-eguide/the-racers-and-rides/the-unlockables reports the stats in the format used by the game's files] ([[Mario Kart 8 in-game statistics|points]]) and has the items listed in the probability tables in the same order used in the game's files. It was definitely written in collaboration with Nintendo. I don't think we can say that MK8 didn't follow MK7 and expand upon it even in how the characters are grouped [[Mario_Kart_8#Driver_statistics|if we look at the stats]]. Simply put, the site is outdated and its criteria for categorization cannot be used even for DLC characters. Until the ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'''s site is out, we need other criteria for the template.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:56, 12 February 2017 (EST)
-Again, I raise the point about past Mario Kart games featuring different stats, yet stick to the three weight class system. Super Circuit features differences within the Light and Heavies, yet we don't consider Yoshi and Bowser to have their own weight classes. Each character has their own individual weight in Mario Kart DS, yet we still use the weight class system even though everyone's completely different. There's nothing "outdated" about sticking to the three class system. Mario Kart 7's system isn't the rule, it's the exception. Besides, we're getting way off track, here. This is about Bowser Jr's weight. Given that frame size was evidence enough for all the other new characters in MK8 Deluxe, there is no valid reason as to why Bowser Jr should be viewed any differently. By the logic of "Jr could have a small frame but the weight of medium characters!", we could also say that King Boo might be use large karts but have the weight of a middleweight, or the Inklings might be lightweights with medium frames. --{{User|Burb}} 11:09, 12 February 2017 (EST)
-:The problem is that ''Mario Kart 8'' is not officially using three weights, as the official guide clearly showed, the site does. I'm not against grouping Bowser Jr. among the Small characters and in general using body frame size to categorize the characters, I'm against using an outdated weight criterion to classify all the characters, even the newer ones that were introduced with the DLC packs and that are not classified in the site.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:23, 12 February 2017 (EST)
-The guide's isn't accurate judging from the list posted earlier that placed Cruiserweights after Heavyweights: in Mario Kart 7 (which officially used this weight system, unlike Mario Kart 8) Cruiserweights were between Heavies and Mediums, not the heaviest class. That inconsistency alongside being sourced by a third party should be enough to invalidate Prima's claims. On top of that.....it's a strategy guide, of course it's going to go more in-depth about the characters' differences. That doesn't mean its class system is official, especially when they didn't even get the classes' names correct. --{{User|Burb}} 12:32, 17 February 2017 (EST)
-:The site is as accurate as the guide, i.e. neither of them mention the 7 classes of characters which were there before the DLC packs (that aren't always weight classes, by the way, as Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach show). I agree putting Bowser Jr. among the small characters, I disagree with the current template structure until the site of MK8D is out. Regarding the specific character class of Bowser Jr., he could pertain to a new character's class just like other newly introduced characters.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:46, 17 February 2017 (EST)
-== Wiggler listed under the wrong weight class ==
-Hi, new here so please forgive me if I'm being dumb... Wiggler shares the same stats with Waluigi, DK, and Roy, all of whom are listed under the cruiser weight class. Despite this, Wiggler is still in the heavy category. Petey Piranha is also listed alongside the heavy drivers despite sharing stats with Metal Mario/Pink Gold Peach, though I guess that could be justified because Petey uses bigger vehicle frames? Idk they both seem like errors, but I wanted to check before I screwed with anything {{unsigned|Okapii}}
-:The [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/switch/aabpa/coursepack/index.html official website] classifies Wiggler and Petey as heavy, though I've noticed they don't distinguish between heavy/cruiser and light/featherweight. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:10, September 29, 2023 (EDT)
-:Interesting! Has “cruiser” ever been used in the context of MK8? I don’t see it mentioned anywhere in the actual article for either the original or Deluxe. idk it just seems odd to sort characters that have identical stats into different categories but I’m not going to argue with an official website. EDIT: never mind, I’m an idiot who didn’t realize the conversation right above me already discussed this situation lol {{User|Okapii}} 10:55, September 30, 2023 (EDT)
-== Create table subpage template ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|3-5|do not implement table subpage template}}
-The {{tem|CTTT}} template received a {{tem|CTTT/table}} subpage template. This time, however, the DLC content from the original ''Mario Kart 8'' return in ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'', with some elements exclusive to the base game of ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' like King Boo some elements exclusive to the ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass'' like Diddy Kong, so I've come up with an idea for a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{fake link|MK8/table|Template:MK8/table}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki> subpage template. Here's an example:
-<table style="display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle">
-<tr style="height:8pt">
-<td style="display: none; background:#4ada; display:table-cell;">
-</td></tr></table> Appears in the base game of ''Mario Kart 8''. • <table style="display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle">
-<tr style="height:8pt">
-<td style="display: none; background:#80bb03; display:table-cell;">
-</td></tr></table> Appears as DLC in ''Mario Kart 8''. <table style="display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle">
-<tr style="height:8pt">
-<td style="display: none; background: #f00a; display:table-cell;">
-</td></tr></table> Appears in the base game of ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''. • <table style="display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle">
-<tr style="height:8pt">
-<td style="display: none; background:#a54696; display:table-cell;">
-</td></tr></table> Appears in the ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass''.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': <s>November 17, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> November 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT
-===Support===
-#{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal
-#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per proposal
-#{{User|Super Game Gear}} I like this idea. Though I'm not fully certain about using these symbols, I'm definitely in favor of a table sub-template.
-===Oppose===
-#{{user|Ahemtoday}} Hm. I'm not opposed to the idea of redoing how the game icons look, but this way of doing it seems flawed for two reasons. One, I'm... honestly not a fan of the CTTT template's new system: I think it was more visually clear and elegant when it used the same system as [[Template:MIM]]. Secondly: I don't think this sort of system makes sense for MK8. These sorts of table templates are for showing which versions have which content, but the thing about MIM and CTTT is that the versions are separate, while MK8's versions stack on top of each other. I mean, half of these are DLC, they do that by design. I don't see the value in saying [[Fish Bone]] <table style="display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle"><tr style="height:8pt"><td style="display: none; background:#4ada; display:table-cell;"></td><td style="display: none; background: #f00a; display:table-cell;"></td><td style="display: none; background:#a54696; display:table-cell;"> </td></tr></table> because it doesn't appear in an MK8 DLC course but ''does'' appear in [[Boo Lake]]. I don't think that way of listing these makes sense.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Our issue with this is plain and simple--these colored, table-based markers just aren't screen-reader or colorblind friendly like unicode-based text markers are. Incidentally, the graphical "8" icons definitely need alt text, so this ''technically'' isn't a new issue, but c'mon, we should probably just fix that rather than introduce a similar issue. ;P
-#{{User|Hewer}} Per Ahemtoday.
-#{{User|Arend}} I feel like placing these icons at every single item in the navigation template would clutter the template quite a bit. I suppose it's fine if we use it for a game that has like multiple versions that each have very distinct differences like ''Mario is Missing'' (which nav template icons I think I prefer over the Captain Toad nav template icons), but this is a template for the original game, its own DLC packs, an enhanced port of the original game (which includes the original game's DLC packs ''and'' new content), free additional content from updates for that enhanced port, ''and'' a massive sextet of DLC packs for that enhanced port. That's ''five'' different things to account for, and each thing just adds more and more on top of the base version of the game, which means that not only do ''all'' items need to have at least one icon, but a lot of items in the template also have to include more and more icons... I'd honestly prefer a split for a ''Mario Kart 8'' and a ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' nav template over cluttering up the nav template with icons after each item; to be honest, I'm fine with the way the template currently is too, since not every item is being marked with an icon here, and only two at most, too.
-#{{User|YoYo}} absolutely not, colourblind people will just go without i suppose, and also the colours dont look right in dark mode. Its an "issue" that just doesn't need "fixing".
-===Comments===