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| == Citations in the template itself == | | == Citations in the template itself == |
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| With the proposal requiring sources for foreign names recently passing, much concern has been made about taking up too much space in the references section. Then it stuck me — couldn't a new column be added to the existing template for citations? Could also make adding sources simpler / less details would need to be added maybe. I'm not entirely sure how it would look but I thought I'd suggest the idea. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 22:13, August 26, 2024 (EDT) | | With the proposal requiring sources for foreign names recently passing, much concern has been made about taking up too much space in the references section. Then it stuck me — couldn't a new column be added to the existing template for citations? Could also make adding sources simpler / less details would need to be added maybe. I'm not entirely sure how it would look but I thought I'd suggest the idea. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 22:13, August 26, 2024 (EDT) |
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| :::But that is me, and others are welcomed to think differently. But regardless, I probably should scrutinized the original proposal a bit better, because it seems like some users, both in support and opposition, had different expectations with what would happen when it was executed. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:31, September 6, 2024 (EDT) | | :::But that is me, and others are welcomed to think differently. But regardless, I probably should scrutinized the original proposal a bit better, because it seems like some users, both in support and opposition, had different expectations with what would happen when it was executed. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:31, September 6, 2024 (EDT) |
| ::::I definitely did not think through this fully when I made the proposal (which is 100% my bad and I should've waited to make it), and I just suggested maybe doing something with the template afterwards only for changes to be put in place without any discussion (which I was aiming to start with my message above). I do admittedly like the template changes because it tracks which pages need specifically name citations. But I can also see how users adding citations whenever they stumble across a page without them and ditching all this extra stuff could be a better idea. I do want a tag for any edits adding new names without citations, though, as my hope was that any new names added would be cited by the original editor. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 14:35, September 6, 2024 (EDT) | | ::::I definitely did not think through this fully when I made the proposal (which is 100% my bad and I should've waited to make it), and I just suggested maybe doing something with the template afterwards only for changes to be put in place without any discussion (which I was aiming to start with my message above). I do admittedly like the template changes because it tracks which pages need specifically name citations. But I can also see how users adding citations whenever they stumble across a page without them and ditching all this extra stuff could be a better idea. I do want a tag for any edits adding new names without citations, though, as my hope was that any new names added would be cited by the original editor. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 14:35, September 6, 2024 (EDT) |
| :::::I can help draft an addendum that will iron out exceptions that should help reduce clutter and unintentional pedantic applications and add extra clarifications closer to the proposal's intent (such as excluding names in Latin languages (ie Mario/Yoshi/Luigi/Wario in French, unless there are exceptions found like Peach being called "Kanttarelli" in Finnish Super Mario Bros.), retroactive addition of the templates to older revisions, etc.) Next time, however, you should have drafted a proposal page in your sandbox and asked other users for feedback before enacting it, it's quite a drastic change from the status quo. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:07, September 6, 2024 (EDT) | | :::::I can help draft an addendum that will iron out exceptions that should help reduce clutter and unintentional pedantic applications and add extra clarifications closer to the proposal's intent (such as excluding names in Latin languages (ie Mario/Yoshi/Luigi/Wario in French, unless there are exceptions found like Peach being called "Kanttarelli" in Finnish Super Mario Bros.), retroactive addition of the templates to older revisions, etc.) {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:07, September 6, 2024 (EDT) |
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| {{@|DandelionSprout}} That was added in response to a democratically passed proposal. I'm not sure if someone else said, but if you want it overturned so badly, wait until like the end of September to make another proposal. I don't think it's that bad, to be honest. It may just take time getting used to. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:13, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I think they are well aware of that proposal, given they were among the opposers. {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:35, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| I missed the name citation proposal, and I just want to ask, how is this supposed to work exactly? For example, I have a number of edits adding Portuguese names for Mario & Luigi enemies, which I got from my copies of the games. What am I even supposed to cite there? "'Sonomelo' in-game text, [game title]"? Why does that need a citation in the first place? Or would that need an image to prove that that is indeed the name? Should I have taken a picture of my 3DS every time an enemy name is on screen? I don't get it. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 08:45, September 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| :{{@|Blinker}} citing "in-game" would be fine in those cases. A screenshot is not necessary. The proposal was integrated as a check to ensure folks are not inventing names, which has happened and is difficult to catch. Unlike ''Mario & Luigi'', most games do not have bestiaries, so for enemies like [[Rocto]], which has not been name-dropped in any game and appeared only twice in pre-Nintendo Switch games where it was not easy to compare languages in one release, it is not at all clear where the uncited names come from. Folks do good work around here, but it is a helpful courtesy to other users and strengthens the reliability of the site to include citations for difficult to verify information. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:12, September 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Simply saying "name is found in-game" isn't really a solution against fake names, though. Worse yet: anyone can add a fake name, cite a game as a source, and others would take the source at face value. People vigilant enough to spot deceptions will question them whether there's a specious "in-game name" citation or not.<br>Note that I myself have [[Hoop|namedropped]] [[Truck#Names in other languages|game]] [[Toy Duck|titles]] to cite names, but I've only done so for the particularly-difficult-to-find ones, though in hindsight I should have added more specificity (e.g. for those Mario Kart elements, stating something along the lines of "as shown in object actions"). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:20, September 8, 2024 (EDT), edited [[User:Koopa con Carne|Koopa con Carne]] ([[User talk:Koopa con Carne|talk]]) 17:24, September 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::That's fair. I agree it's not great, but I do generally think even putting a small barrier of entry like requiring a citation is enough to deter most bad actors. I've at least seen it work off of Mario Wiki. It'd be nice if there was some sort of "warning" if a new user or someone with just an IP address was adding a new name without a citation. Folks with a genuine name would be reminded to cite the material they are referencing, whereas bad actors would not feel it is worth the trouble. But I don't know if that would be technically feasible.
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| :::For in-game citations, I generally like adding the sentence a subject is mentioned in game, or at least the scenario where a named subject is encountered. Like the chapter title, or the location of the map where an enemy is encountered in something like ''Mario & Luigi''. For mobile games, I have cited the file directory for names, like I did for [[Octoomba]]. That would provide something more specific as reference for viewers and other editors, rather than vaguely gesturing to the game at large.
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| :::I'm sorry this has been frustrating for some folks. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:48, September 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| :If the new "notes" column is filled in, should citation needed ([?]) be disabled? How do we feel about that? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:30, October 14, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Add English to the template and rename to <nowiki>{{international names}}</nowiki> ==
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| {{settled TPP}}
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| {{proposal outcome|failed|1-7|Do not add English}}
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| Since this template now requires to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Require_citations_for_names_in_other_languages|cite names in other languages]], I was wondering if English (Eng=), American English (EngA=), and British English (EngE=) options can be added, as well as Canadian English (EngCa=), Australian English (EngAu=), and other variations in the rare cases of them having naming differences. This is a bit of complex proposal, so hopefully I'll try to be the most clear I can when making my points below.
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| The thing that made me think to add this is the comparable instance of www.nintendo.com and related sources having the same setup and layout, just in different languages. The analog {{tem|multilang profile}} cites profiles in a variety of languages, allowing most languages that this template uses, plus English. For example, you can see on the [[Tanooki Mario]] profiles that the profiles are consistently added and cited in the same way as one another: website descriptions in every language that ''Super Mario 3D Land'' was available in. All of those citations can be given a ref name, and all can be added to the "foreign names" template, plus the game title (''Super Mario 3D Land'') being entered into the |N= parameters, except for British English.
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| But for the main example, if we're citing [[Super Mushroom]]'s names in other languages: a majority would be from ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''. It would seem incomplete if we cited all of the languages plus the game title except for English (also considering it's often used interchangably with "Mushroom," so this can help verify if ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' does that, which the source verifies it does not). Some of the items on the [https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/item/index.html Smashbros.com] website do not list profiles for all of the items, with Super Mushroom being one of them.
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| I'll construct a visual example to better show what I'm trying to talk about:
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| <pre>
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| {{foreign names
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| |Ger=Superpilz
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| |GerM=Super Mushroom
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| |GerN=''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''
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| |GerC=<ref name="ssbu_de">{{cite|language=de|publisher=www.smashbros.com|date=2018|url=www.smashbros.com/de_DE/item/index.html|archive=web.archive.org/web/20190417174925/https://www.smashbros.com/de_DE/item/index.html|title=Items {{!}} ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' – Offizielle Seite {{!}} Nintendo Switch {{!}} Nintendo|accessdate=September 12, 2024}}</ref>
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| |SpaE=Superchampiñón
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| |SpaEM=Super Mushroom
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| |SpaEN=''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''
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| |SpaC=<ref name="ssbu_es">{{cite|language=es-es|publisher=www.smashbros.com|date=2018|url=www.smashbros.com/es_ES/item/index.html|archive=web.archive.org/web/20190502171037/https://www.smashbros.com/es_ES/item/index.html|title=Objetos {{!}} ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' – Sitio web oficial {{!}} Nintendo Switch {{!}} Nintendo|accessdate=September 12, 2024}}</ref>
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| |SpaA=Superchampiñón
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| |SpaAM=Super Mushroom
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| |SpaAN=''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''
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| |SpaC=<ref name="ssbu_es-la">{{cite|language=es-la|publisher=www.smashbros.com|date=2018|url=www.smashbros.com/es_LA/item/index.html|archive=web.archive.org/web/20190617083802/https://www.smashbros.com/es_LA/item/index.html|title=Objetos {{!}} ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' – Sitio web oficial {{!}} Nintendo Switch {{!}} Nintendo|accessdate=September 12, 2024}}</ref>
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| }}
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| </pre>
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| While these aren't all of the languages, if we're going by just the few examples above, we can see the template is on its way to referencing every language option available on the Smashbros.com website. Wouldn't it be consistent to have English part of it, too (and also providing the good measure of showing an official source where Super Mushroom is listed)? Ex.:
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| <pre>
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| |EngA=Super Mushroom
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| |EngAN=''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''
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| |EngAC=<ref name="ssbu_en-us">{{cite|language=en-us|publisher=www.smashbros.com|date=2018|url=www.smashbros.com/en_US/item/index.html|archive=web.archive.org/web/20190617083802/https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/item/index.html|title=''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' for the Nintendo Switch system|accessdate=September 12, 2024}}</ref>
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| </pre>
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| The only thing that has me stumped in execution of this idea is EngM= , since the name is generally self-explanatory on an English speaking wiki. Perhaps it can be used for words that are portmanteaus? Though I have seen sentence-long explanations in foreign names, like if it's describing a pun in a different language, so that's possibly something to consider.
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| Besides adding the parameters, if this proposal passes, the "foreign" in the template title will change to a more suitable word, like "international." Also, if this passes, the template will have to be coded so that English or its variations cannot be added unless there's other languages, since this would be redundant, with the name already being in the article opening.
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| Edit: Some games of the ''Super Mario'' franchise, like ''[[Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon]]'', have several naming differences, such as being titled [[Mudroom]] in American English and Side Entrance in British English, so that adds to why I'd find it beneficial to see all of the names in one place.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}} (banned)<br>
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| '''Deadline''': September 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT
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| ====Support====
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
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| <s>#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per above.</s>
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| ====Oppose====
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| #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Not really a fan of this sort of template being used for such a purpose. Maybe a ''second'' template in its own section, but not lumped with the other languages, they get long enough as-is (that also solves the "meaning" issue).
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| #{{User|Blinker}} The same kinds of less obvious names that needed citations in other languages before the proposal, are the same kinds of names that already have citations in English. They're there in the first instance of the name in the article, usually. See [[Robomb]]. Now, if you were to make it so all such names need citations, that would make more sense. I would oppose such a proposal as well, though.
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| #{{User|Technetium}} I don't see the need for this at all when the current way of doing things works just fine. For games at least it's only ever American English and British English - meaning there's only ever going to be a second alt name most of the time that easily fits in the opening sentence of an article.
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| #{{User|Dine2017}} Per all. I feel it's more important to address "from which game" rather than "in which variety of English" ([[Special:PermanentLink/4342924|see here]] for an example).
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| #{{User|GDias}} I don't see the need either. English is already the wiki language, so it's better to leave this template for non-English names only. Games are typically only available in American or British English, and the differences have always been minimal (and even smaller nowadays).
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} No; Current setup is perfectly fine; Per all.
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| #{{User|Justgetmycatch}} Per all. It will take a lot of citations if English was added.
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| ====Comments====
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