Editing Template talk:Dice

== Cast the die for this template ==

{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|blue|cancelled by administrator}}<small>As requested by proposer.</small>

Do I even need to elaborate further? We already have [[:Category:Dice Blocks]], so the same points brought up in [[Template talk:Doors#Delete this template|this TPP]] apply here as well.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Toadette the Achiever}}<br>
'''Cancellation:''' February 7, 2019,  01:46 GMT

===Cast the die===
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Time to delete this useless template that already has a category.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per [[MarioWiki:Navigation templates]]: "Conversely, very loose (and often large) groupings such as [[:Category:Fish|Fish]] or [[:Category:Undead|Undead]] should be saved for categories, not templates, as the need for such templates is far less than for specific species groupings like {{tem|Koopas}} or {{tem|Thwomps}}, and creating too many overlapping templates can clutter up pages." We recently deleted {{fake link|Template:Flowers}} which was a template similar to this, so it would make sense to delete this redundant template.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
<s>#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Changed mind per [[MarioWiki:Navigation templates]].</s>
<s>#{{User|Waluigi Time}} It's time to roll this template out the door.</s>
===Use a "Get Out of Jail Free" card instead===
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} The reason we deleted the doors and cards templates was that the elements in question had barely any relation to each other aside from tying tons of generic or random (as with the flower nav template) subjects together. Dice Blocks are not generic items unlike doors and cards, and they all appear as significant elements within Mario Party (unlike doors which aren't significant, not as dice blocks) and I feel they share characteristics the similar way Blocks and Pipes and Mushrooms all share appearances and characteristics. If we're going to use "but X category exists" as a justification for this, why even have navigation templates? The proposal doesn't even explain why we don't need this one besides making flawed comparisons to previous proposals and just operating on circular reason fallacy, being that we assume this is useless and we therefore conclude it's useless. If we going to remove this template, ''at least'' merge this to {{tem|Blocks}} and create a new subsection that deals with Dice Blocks.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} This doesn't sit well with me. Why not instead put the category on the template? I roll the dice again... Per Bazooka Mario.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Bazooka Mario.
===Comments===
@FanOfYoshi: Putting a link to the category on this template would just take you to another list with the same contents and doesn't solve the issue of redundancy. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:48, 31 January 2019 (EST)
:Hmmm... I guess you're right. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:03, 1 February 2019 (EST)

If there was an option to merge this to {{tem|Blocks}}, I will support that option. We remove the redundancy with Category:Blocks and get the benefits of the navigation template. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 19:12, 3 February 2019 (EST)

== Cast the die for this template, take 2 ==

{{TPP}}
Okay, it's the exact same thing as the previous proposal, except now I'm also including a second option: one to merge this template into its own section on [[Template:Blocks]] seeing as how that template is troubled too, as was suggested by {{User|Bazooka Mario}}. How the Blocks template will be organized after that has no bearing on this proposal.

Now that I'm doing this properly, let's get this over with.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Toadette the Achiever}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' February 21, 2019, 23:59 GMT

===Cast the die===
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Preferred option, since I don't think merging the two navtemplates would be a smooth or effective transition.

===Fuse with the {{tem|Blocks}}===
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Second choice, though I can sympathize with why this should be an option.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Bazooka Mario's comments and thoughts on the previous proposal.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} The dice blocks were separated from the template initially, so I think it's not a good move to subsequently delete the template that was designed to declutter the original navigation template. Remerging this with the blocks template, but as a Dice Block section, I think, removes the apparent redundancy with the Dice block category while keeping the ease of use the dice nav provides.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Bazooka Mario, it does make sense to put them back on the Blocks template. I agree with them having their own subsection on the template.

===Use a "Get Out of Jail Free" card instead===
<s>#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I agree with Bazooka Mario on the previous proposal, but I think the blocks you usually think of are a bit different from the dice blocks, and it would be weird to have them together.</s>
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Bazooka Mario. I'm against outright deletion.

===Comments===
Would the Dice Blocks be mixed with the normal blocks or have their own tab? [[User:Scrooge200|Scrooge200]] ([[User talk:Scrooge200|talk]]) 21:04, 6 February 2019 (EST)
:I'd like them to have their own subsection for the ease of navigation. Dice Blocks are like a subset of blocks and they'd fit neatly in the category in their own section. [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Blocks&diff=2300278&oldid=2300133 Anyhow, they were actually removed earlier] because the template in dispute was redundant and took precedent, but now that this template is going to be deleted, we should be remerging back to Blocks anyway.

:I'm not sure what I'm missing out from reading that {{tem|Blocks}} is troubled, but I honestly don't see what's wrong with having nav templates for blocks, mushrooms, coins, etc. they deserve a navigational template as much as Koopas and Goombas do as they are nongeneric elements that contain one "basic" one and then get a lot of divergences. [[MarioWiki:Navigation templates|Our own policy]] states that "However, sometimes major subjects (items or objects) will be granted templates in order to bring them more attention than categories alone would, effectively doing for them what proper species templates do for characters and enemies. This is the reason for the existence of {{tem|Blocks}} and {{tem|Mushrooms}}."

:This is on tangent, but I also argue that Fire Flower and its derivatives qualify IMO. I think there are enough derived forms of Fire Flower to get a navigational template that deals with ''only'' flowers that are derivatives from Fire Flowers ([[Ice Flower]], [[Gold Flower]], [[Boomerang Flower]], [[Cloud Flower]], [[Slow Flower]], [[Speed Flower]], [[Superball Flower]], [[Copy Flower]], [[Mix Flower]], possibly Flower from Super Mario RPG, and possibly [[Bonus Flower]]) so I think we should restore it. It wouldn't be just a category repeat, we'd get a nice grouping of all related power-up flowers in a navigational template. I'm not exactly sure what the previous flower nav looked like before it was deleted, but it can't be what I was proposing, I'm hoping. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:41, 6 February 2019 (EST)
::Clarified the point that the Dice Blocks will get their own section on [[Template:Blocks]]. Hopefully that clears it up for you! {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:13, 6 February 2019 (EST)
Waluigi Time: I like to think as Dice Block as a diverse entity, but derived from regular Block, as how Dry Bones are diverse but derived from Koopa. Blocks themselves are extremely varied too; we have [[Super Horn]] and [[Donut Block]] which are arguably more different from Dice Blocks are to normal blocks. The Dice Blocks in Mario Party are clear references to the Mario source material, you even hit them the way you'd hit the normal blocks; the original Dice Block from the original Mario Party is extremely similar to the Super Mario 64 blocks, check out [[Plus Block]] and [[Minus Block]] too. So yeah, maybe it's a little weird at first, but the dice block navigation template is pretty redundant with the category, and that may give it little reason to exist on its own, but it'll be weirder to not have dice block navigation at all but also don't include dice block in the block navigation. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:52, 6 February 2019 (EST)

I'm still mulling over if Dice Block should have their own template or if they should be part of a subsection in the block nav, but I think it makes no sense to leave out Dice Blocks from the Block nav and delete Dice Blocks nav, which was separated from the Block nav to begin with. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:55, 6 February 2019 (EST)
:Shouldn't we have waited four weeks to restart the proposal? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:38, 8 February 2019 (EST)
::Rule 7 doesn't apply if no decision was reached. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 03:33, 8 February 2019 (EST)