Editing Talk:Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic

Should we make articles for Imajin, Mama, Papa, and Lina? <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''aper '''Jorge'''</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Paper Jorge|Talk]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Paper Jorge|Contributions]]<tt>&middot;</tt></small>) '''Paper Jorge''' was here at... 18:55, 29 September 2006 (EDT)

There's not much information on them, and they're not ''exactly'' Mario charecters.
<br>- [[User: Yoshi Mastar|Yoshi Master]]

:Any information about them should be included in this article. As Yoshi Mastar said, they are not Marioverse characters. However, since Doki Doki Panic was the template used for Super Mario Bros. 2, the game has a place at this wiki. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

::Didn't they appear in [[Super Mario All-Stars]]? <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

:::No. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

::::Ok. I think I remember seeig them but oh well. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

:Shouldn't we just delete this game??  It has nothing to do with the Marioverse.  The SMB2 article mentioned enough info about this game. {{User:Glitchman/sig}}
::You'd want to merge it rather than just delete all of it.  Despite the fact that the game doesn't have anything to do with the fictional side of the... "Marioverse" <-- really a subjective term if you ask me... Anyway, the game plays a big role in the actual history of the ''Mario'' series.  So, keep this information on the Wiki, but I'm not saying it should have it's own article.  The section on the SMB2 article pales in comparison to this. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 23:24, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

:::Erm, maybe that's a good idea. {{User:Glitchman/sig}}

==Is this article even needed?==
What does it have to do with Mario? It's not a "Japanese Version" of Super Mario Bros. 2. It's more like the original basis of what later became known as "Super Mario USA" in Japan. So yes, there was an SMB2 in Japan, entilted "USA". It looks like most of the Mario info is already in the [[Super Mario Bros. 2]] article, so do we need this one? {{User:Garlic Man/sig}}
:Yes, the content is needed.  Whether the article is needed is more of a gray area.  I could see this page being merged with Super Mario Bros. 2 in a history section.  Like you said, SMB2 has MOST of the information seen here, but not all of it, so we'd want to rectify that should we decide to merge. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 11:41, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

==Is this correct?==

In the article says "Imajin's strength was transferred to Mario in Super Mario 64" this is not correct or  it is? {{User:Luigi 128/sig|I nver hear this before.}}

== Story translation needed ==

This game was made at a time where storylines of many games were not included in the games themselves — they can only be found in the instruction manuals instead. I found a [http://www.nesplayer.com/features/doki/fcd13.jpg scan of Doki Doki Panic]'s story. Naturally, I'd love to know the names of the three characters that show up in the beginning and ending of the game, or how different the exposition is in DDP. — [[User:NES Boy|NES Boy]] 16:16, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:I don't know what exactly the story is, but I can tell you the names of the characters. I checked Japanese Wikipedia which gives the names and compared the respective Japanese characters with the text in the [http://www.nesplayer.com/features/doki/doki.htm photo], and the names are seen in the manual. The twin children are called Piki (ピキ) and Poki (ポキ), while the monkey's name is Rūsa (ルーサ). --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 08:50, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::I found a complete transcript of the game's manual [http://www.geocities.jp/frnyanko/setsumei/disk/yumekoujoudokidokipanic/yumekoujoudokidokipanic.html here]. Putting it into a translator (e.g. [http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.geocities.jp/frnyanko/setsumei/disk/yumekoujoudokidokipanic/yumekoujoudokidokipanic.html Google] or [http://excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body/?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.jp%2Ffrnyanko%2Fsetsumei%2Fdisk%2Fyumekoujoudokidokipanic%2Fyumekoujoudokidokipanic.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2&wb_submit=+%96%7C+%96%F3+ excite]) should at least make the basic aspects of the story understandable. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 17:55, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

==LOL==
Maybe Mama-Luigi was the way they figured out a name for an episode.

{{User:Mario64fanatic/sig}}

:Added to that page's trivia. {{User:SKmarioman/sig}}
::And I removed it. It's a random coincidence, nothing more. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 12:06, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

== Merge ==

Shouldn't this be merged with SMB2? They're the same games, just different names and people! {{User:Fawfulfury65/sig}}

== Oh! ==

It's onomatopoeia. dok dok = throb throb (or thump thump). [[User:Lysdexia|Lysdexia]] 18:39, 13 December 2009 (EST)

==Doki Doki==

I've seen Doki Doki usually translated as "The Beating Heart", or something along those lines. Should the translation be changed to something closer to "Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic"? --[[User:Turkishcoffee|Turkishcoffee]] 08:54, 3 April 2010 (EDT)
:Even if that's what they intended, it's an unofficial translation, so we're not accepting it. {{User:Reversinator/sig}}
::Oh, okay. I wasn't really aware that there even ''was'' an official translated name for this game. I've only ever heard it by it's Japanese title. --[[User:Turkishcoffee|Turkishcoffee]] 09:05, 3 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Actually, I've never read an official translation for the title. When titles of Japan-only games get official mentions by Nintendo in English, they are mostly untranslated. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 10:55, 3 April 2010 (EDT)
::::That's what I thought, too. In fact, the "Dream Factory" part is often omitted. In some cases a translation is provided, but this is normally by the publisher or editor for the convenience of the reader, which could also hardly count as "official". I think we might need this to get more attention, then. If no official source of a translated title can be provided, should we use a different translation (with something closer to a logical meaning)? --[[User:Turkishcoffee|Turkishcoffee]] 11:43, 3 April 2010 (EDT)

===Change Translated Title so it's More Meaningful===
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|no quorum|1-0}}

"Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic" is currently given the English translated title of "Dream Factory: Throb-Throb Panic". While this is strictly correct, "Doki Doki" is normaly translated into a phrase related to a beating heart.


A claim was made that "Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic!" is not an official title. Which is true, however the game was not released in any English speaking country, and to my knowledge no "official" source has given any English name. Also, if this were an official English name, the name of the article, by convention should have been changed. Translations are often included, however they are more often then not added by the editor or publisher for the reader's clarity. Unless it was found in Nintendo Power, this would not be official.

The title I have come up with is "Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic!", which I feel is more meaningful, and is likely closer to the meaning of the Japanese title.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Turkishcoffee}}

'''Deadline''': April 17 2010 23:59

====Change Translated Title to "Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic!"==== 
#{{User|Turkishcoffee}} Per Proposal.

====Change Translated Title to Something Else (Suggest Something)====

====Do not Change Translated Title====

====Comments====
@{{User|KS3}} How do we know it's official?

Can't we just make a compromise by leaving the title as it is and explaining that "Throb-Throb" is Japanese onomatopoeia for a beating heart? - {{User|Edofenrir}}
:That's sensible, but I still think the official title's source should at least be explained. If it was cited, or if I could find it, I wouldn't have bothered with this proposal. It's just so unusual for a game to have an official English name, and the fact that it was so unusually translated bothers me. Why would an official source translate something that way? It just doesn't make sense to me. {{User|Turkishcoffee}}

Could this be a misunderstanding here? The opposers seem to think that the proposer wants to change the article's title, but if I'm not mistaken, Turkishcoffee just wants to change the translation in the ''articles's lead'' from "Throb-Throb Panic" to "Heart-Pounding Panic." --{{User|Grandy02}}
:It appears to be the case... - {{user|Edofenrir}}
:That's exactly what I want to do. "Throb-Throb" is the ''worst'' way to translate ''doki doki'', and I'm 90% sure it's reserved for heartbeats (not just a sound of pumping), anyway. --[[User:Turkishcoffee|Turkishcoffee]] 02:33, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::I am ''not' suggesting we move the article. --[[User:Turkishcoffee|Turkishcoffee]] 02:34, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

But actually, the current title is incorrect anyway. It should be "kōjō" (factory) not "kojo", which is meaningless. {{User:Twentytwofiftyseven/sig}} 02:09, 10 April 2010 (EDT)

I am Zero! Wait, I don't get this proposal, is it to change the article name to Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic! or to change the part that say ''(translated: "Dream Factory: Throb-Throb Panic")'' to ''(translated: "Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic")''. Zero signing out. {{User|Zero777}}
:It's to change ''(translated: "Dream Factory: Throb-Throb Panic")'' to ''(translated: "Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic")'', when I first mentioned this (as well as in the proposal), people (apparently?) thought I meant the Article's title, not the game's title. So I was all "Wait, how can you have an official English title for a game that never came out in an English speaking area?", and then people tried to prove the Japanese title to me... which was never under debate... Honestly the only reason I proposed it was because I was under the impression we were using an unsourced and uncited bad translation, which apparently we aren't, I just wasn't clear when I wrote my comment (above the proposal) or the proposal. Really I don't think a proposal is even ''needed'' to change this now. {{User|Turkishcoffee}}
::What about a compromise? Simply write "translated: 'Dream Factory: Heart-Pounding Panic' or 'Dream Factory: Throb-Throb Panic'", so both of the possible translations are mentioned. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 11:37, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I made a different compromise by explaining it's an onomatopoeia, but rather than translating the noise it represents, the title is translated to reflect the overall idea of the pounding heart. I didn't use so many words in the article (it's clunky as-is), but hopefully people will still get the gist of what I mean. I also wanted to put a link to somewhere explaining the use of onomatopoeia in Japanese titles, but I couldn't find anything (granted, I didn't spend too much time looking). Hopefully no one minds that I didn't propose it here first: I was worried the discussion would go no where again. Please note that I did something similar for ''[[Excitebike: Bun Bun Mario Battle Stadium]]'': I'm pretty sure "bun bun" represents the buzzing of the dirk bikes, so if we want to call this "''Dream Factory: Throb-Throb Panic''" again, to be consistent, we'd have to call that game "''Excitebike: Buzz Buzz Mario Battle Stadium''"... - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:39, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

== Intended to be a Mario game all along, or...? ==

So one of the theories out there is that this was meant to be a Mario game all along, but the new gameplay was tested with licensed characters first before it became a Mario game. At first, I have to call BS on this one, but then I realized there were already similarities to begin with... The Starman and POW Block, namely, which are blatant cameos. Then you can't overlook the fact that Shigeru Miyamoto was involved in the original game.

However, outside of these observations, there was no proof I can really find out there that suggested this was true. Looking at the game credits, I noticed something else, however - Shigeru Miyamoto did not direct this game. Popular belief states he "created" the game, but he was listed as a producer, with Hiroshi Yamauchi listed under executive producer. Important people, sure, but the key person listed as director was a fellow known only as "Chappy" (obviously an alias). So we know the game was his vision, not Miyamoto's. So who is this "Chappy?"  A newbie at the time? Ashamed of putting his name in this work? Or someone from Fuji TV? Who knows.

Even if Miyamoto did not direct the game, he was a clear influence nonetheless. So which is it? Did they intend to make a Mario game from the start, but they had an agreement with Fuji TV? Or maybe they liked the game so much they their copyright contract was expired, so they renewed the game as a Mario title? Who IS Chappy, and what's his/her say on the matter?

Another wrench into the "it was planned to be a Mario game from the start" theory is the game's name in Japan - Super Mario USA. Really? They couldn't think of a better name? At least they're honest to their own people - the back of the box (seen in a scan on GameFAQs) mentions Super Mario Bros. 2, so I'm pretty sure the fans in Japan knew it was "our" SMB2. There's also the fact that a look at the game's code indicates that there are some leftover graphics from DDP rather than the sprites being completely overwritten. Still, when it came time for an alternate Mario 2, you have to wonder what it was that made Nintendo go, "Let's go with Doki Doki Panic" in the first place. Last I checked, there hasn't been an official quote for the record (if there is one then it's relatively obscure). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 20:52, 9 April 2010 (EDT)

:First of all, this might be better for the forums, but that aside.

:(1) I think the POW blocks were in this game before other Mario games. Don't quote me on that, though. (2) Miyamoto is involved with most games by Nintendo, at least somewhat. Back then I imagine he would be more involved in fewer projects, but this is just a guess. (3) Miyamoto is listed only as director or producer in a lot of games. He's more often listed as the producer now. I believe the logic was that he didn't spend a lot of time actually working on the project itself, but was still involved. (4) A lot of games are other peoples' "visions" which Miyamoto is somehow involved in. Not every single game concept comes just from one person. (5) Developers often list nicknames in credits. Sometimes this is an entirely made up person, or the actual person want to distance him or her self from the project. (6) Well, it was a Super Mario game made just for the U.S.A. The title is descriptive, at least. GameFAQs isn't the most reliable source, and which game are you talking about the back of? Doki Doki Panic? Wasn't Doki Doki Panic released first? Why would the box be changed later to include that? That doesn't make sense. (7) When the graphics were improved to include more frames, I imagine it was easier to simply partition new space for graphics, as opposed to trying to recycle all the old space. It's possible some were overwritten due to being "good enough" or changed earlier in devlopment (and the old graphic wasn't needed as a stand-in for as long). (8) Marketing. Mario was an established series here, and Americans have always been prety big on "brands". Doki Doki Panic would have been odd and confusing and put people off. Slapping Mario characters on it made it more commercially viable. --[[User:Turkishcoffee|Turkishcoffee]] 04:12, 10 April 2010 (EDT)

::Hah, I think a scan is as reliable as it gets - http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/4/525244_2912_back.jpg

On a side note: I don't read Japanese, but I took the liberty of looking for the lettering on the Doki Doki Panic box and looking for it on its description. Guess what? Fifth line down in the blue box (two spaces above mention of Super Mario Bros. 2) is Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic. They knew! Also, I guess the animation frames thing makes sense, but neither the heart container nor mushroom are animated... The potion is, though. You'd think they'd change more of the graphics to make it more Mario-like at the time, but I guess they remedied that with the ending. I can see why marketing would definitely be a factor since the did the same thing happened to Kirby's Avalanche, Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine and Decap Attack (among others like Tetris Attack). And another note is that Phanto's artwork is based on his Doki Doki Panic appearance, but it was completely changed for the new SMB2 and no one made alternate artwork. By the way, POW Blocks originated in Mario Bros. for the Arcade. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 17:36, 10 April 2010 (EDT)

:::Well, the graphics space ended up being entirely re-done as the game was re-released on a different type of cart, left over things were just copied (as far as I am aware, all space on a cart is occupied, even if it's filled with junk data). As for ones left in the game, I guess they coped-out with "it's a dream world, making sense is optional". As far as saying on the box it's a remake/rehashing of it (I think I spy a release date in there for YK (it really is called "Yume Kojo", afterall). I think I can also pick out the US release of the Mario version. I guess it was better to say it then try to hide it. People would have noticed anyway. The game wasn't released here, so not nearly as may people would notice (in fact, I'm not sure anyone noticed until the internet happened). Some of the graphics are just puzzling, though. I have no idea why the lamp was replaced with a potion, or why that even was meant to make sense. In fact, the lamp was stretching it. I think it would have made just as much sense as pulling the door out of the ground itself, but I gather it would be too tall and look funny. Also, how many times has Panel de Pon / Tetris Attack been re-done? I can count five off the top of my head. I'm not sure if you could make the argument that Panel de Pon was meant to be a Pokémon puzzle game spin-off, ever. --[[User:Turkishcoffee|Turkishcoffee]] 19:20, 10 April 2010 (EDT)

== Merge Imajin, Mama, Lina, Papa, and Poki and Piki with this article ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|6-3|merge}}

The articles for the playable characters are pretty short and don't really say much that can't already be said on the Doki Doki Panic article. It makes even less sense that Poki and Piki have an article as well, they're just NPCs. Are these standalone articles REALLY needed on a Mario Wiki?

'''Proposer''': {{User|SuperYoshiBros}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 7, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

===Support===
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - ''Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic'' is '''not''' a ''Mario'' game: it's lasting influences on the series is purely by way of ''SMB2'', which is what the full coverage is rightly given to. But this shouldn't get full coverage: the partial coverage in the form of a game page only was enough, and frankly these pages should not have ever been made in the first place. They were created [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Alejandrolares&offset=20130823205736&target=Alejandrolares by a new user] without prior discussion or approval, much less a TPP or Proposal, which is sorta required for changing coverage of any grey-area non-''Mario'' game ([[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest_appearances|see the last line of MW:Coverage's "guest appearance" section]], which is the same level of partial coverage that ''Doki Doki Panic'' started out with and should still have). And, if there ''had'' been a discussion, it's a safe bet that there ''wouldn't've'' been approval: the only reason the pages are still here is due to negligence or apathy on our parts, but now that someone's finally taken the initiative to speak up, we should fix this oversight.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} - Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Walkazo
#{{User|Madz the Penguin}} Let's compare the new user and Mario Wiki members to an intern and experienced doctors, respectively. Without much experience, an intern is prone to make mistakes in the hospital, and if she doesn't ask experienced doctors first, she could get in big trouble. One day, he/she decided to let a family of people who couldn't pay to get into the clinic. He/She saw that they were indeed sick, so s/he decided that they could get into the clinic for free. However, it was illegal for them not to pay, so when one of the most experienced docs figured out about the non-paying patients, he knew he had to get rid of them. Other doctors, on the other hand, thought it was a nice thing to do, so they wanted to keep the patients in. They argued and argued, forgetting the law that if the patients couldn't pay, they couldn't get in. This is like that, so I'm going to say, "if they can't pay (if they haven't met Mario characters), they can't get in (they can't get an article).
#{{User|Mario}} I'm more split on this one. One one hand, playing a bit if Devil's Advocate, they are kind of like prototype characters for the Mario version, and they deserve their own articles, especially since they're treated as separate characters, complete with artwork. But on the other hand, I think they go better on their own game since they're not really classified as Mario characters, nor are they guests, nor do they make additional appearances throughout the Mario series, unlike Shy Guys, Pidgit, Bob-omb, and that pink reptilian abomination. Some game-exclusive characters, such as Albatosses and Pansers, though, still deserve their own articles because they have appeared in the Mario version ''and'' in the remakes, unlike these hapless fools. So, '''support'''.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} Eh, they are characters and Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic is kind of considered a mario game, and these characters draw info and basis for the Mario series, something that I believe should be kept.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per Toadbrigade5 - I agree, ''Doki Doki Panic'' is already essentially part of the series retroactively, especially considering the direct influences (Starman, POW Block, etc.) that were already there.
#{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per Toadbrigade5 and LinkTheLefty.

===Comments===
If the articles remain, perhaps they can be applied to the ''SMB2'' template so they appear less stranded (obviously with the added note that these elements are exclusive to it). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:54, 24 December 2014 (EST)

== Merge into ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|cancelled}}
...We have this article?!  Why?  I understand that this information needs to be ''covered'', but this isn't a ''Mario'' game.  We only have this article because it was the game that ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' was ported to the Americas from.  That being said, why ''not'' merge into the ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' article?  After all, this is about a non-''Mario'' game...on a ''Mario'' wiki.  I'm not saying to ''delete'' the article; I'm just saying it should be merged into ''Super Mario Bros. 2''.  We did it with ''Panel de Pon'' and ''[[Tetris Attack]]''; why not merge these as well?

'''Proposer''': {{User|YoshiFlutterJump}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 26, 2017, 23:59 GMT<br>
'''Date Withdrawn''': December 12, 2017, 20:57 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per my proposal.  I'm surprised that I'm the first one to propose this.

====Oppose====
#{{User|Alex95}} - Main reason why they are separate is because of the level of influence. Several ''Mario'' subjects (Bob-ombs, POW Blocks, the characters' traits, etc.) come from this game. ''Panel de Pon'' was a short article and didn't have much influence, easily merged to ''Tetris Attack'', but ''Doki Doki Panic'' has significantly more information I do not believe would work well with a merge.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} We just had a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_48#What_is_Yume_K.C5.8Dj.C5.8D:_Doki_Doki_Panic.3F|proposal]] that determined the place of ''Doki Doki Panic'' on the wiki, and resulted in [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Historically_significant|coverage recognition]]. I opposed the ''Panel de Pon'' merge then, and I oppose this one now.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all, also this article does not cover the game in full, only the Mario-related elements, and mainly covers changes and influence on the series, while the information only pertaining to Doki Doki Panic is kept to a minimum. Very little information is the same as the Super Mario Bros. 2 article, so it makes sense to keep this separate.

====Comments====
Oh, I didn't see that proposal.  Well, I'm cancelling now.... -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 15:56, 12 December 2017 (EST)

== Title ==

Given that [http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/0 this translated Iwata Asks interview] officially refers to it as "Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic", should we remove the macrons (and possibly remove the another language template)? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:55, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
:Mh, I'm not feeling it. I think the "we don't have these on our keyboard so we're not gonna search for them" isn't valid to consider a "translation" after what Dark Horse did. Besides, it's still Japanese. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:06, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
::Yeah, I'm with Doc here. The exact same name but formatted slightly differently doesn't make it any more English, and I don't see the need for a page move. Same deal with [[Super Mario-Kun]], removing the hyphen and typing it in CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make it an English title, nor is it "more official" just because that's how it was written in Mario Maker. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:33, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
:::Disagree, it comes from an English source, and from an official site. I'd support the move. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 16:31, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
::::I sincerely doubt it was intended as a "translation." It's far more likely they just didn't want to bother finding the version of o with the horizontal line macron since it's not readily available on an English kyboard. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:05, July 24, 2019 (EDT)