Editing Talk:Yoshi (species)

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==Merge color Yoshies into Yoshi (species)==
==Merge color Yoshies into Yoshi (species)==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{SettledTPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|canceled}}
{{ProposalOutcome|canceled}}
[[Black Yoshi]], [[Red Yoshi]], [[Yellow Yoshi]], [[Blue Yoshi]], [[Orange Yoshi]], [[White Yoshi]], [[Light Blue Yoshi]], [[Brown Yoshi]], [[Pink Yoshi]], [[Green Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]. Most of those Yoshies have minute differences between them, and the ones that do have notable differences, well, those differences just aren't notable enough. If we leave, say, White, Black, Red, Blue and Yellow split and merge the rest, it wouldn't be consistent, whereas if we leave one or two really major ones, it would be fair, like [[Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad]].
[[Black Yoshi]], [[Red Yoshi]], [[Yellow Yoshi]], [[Blue Yoshi]], [[Orange Yoshi]], [[White Yoshi]], [[Light Blue Yoshi]], [[Brown Yoshi]], [[Pink Yoshi]], [[Green Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]. Most of those Yoshies have minute differences between them, and the ones that do have notable differences, well, those differences just aren't notable enough. If we leave, say, White, Black, Red, Blue and Yellow split and merge the rest, it wouldn't be consistent, whereas if we leave one or two really major ones, it would be fair, like [[Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad]].


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If it's just a different color change as associated with an ability, I think it should stay like that in the Yoshi article, as it refers the color of the Yoshi. Just don't list directly as the main orange Yoshi; just say "In Super Mario Galaxy 2, when a Green Yoshi eats blah, he changes color, which is orange. Note that this is not an actual orange Yoshi, just a color change that represents an orange Yoshi" or something like that. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}}
If it's just a different color change as associated with an ability, I think it should stay like that in the Yoshi article, as it refers the color of the Yoshi. Just don't list directly as the main orange Yoshi; just say "In Super Mario Galaxy 2, when a Green Yoshi eats blah, he changes color, which is orange. Note that this is not an actual orange Yoshi, just a color change that represents an orange Yoshi" or something like that. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}}
:You still haven't explained where it was originally discussed. {{User|Reversinator}}
:You still haven't explained where it was originally discussed. {{User|Reversinator}}
::Well, it wasn't directly explained [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18|here]], but it's still the same subject. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}}
::Well, it wasn't directly explained [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 18|here]], but it's still the same subject. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}}
:::This proposal of the opposite of that proposal. {{User|Reversinator}}
:::This proposal of the opposite of that proposal. {{User|Reversinator}}


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==Putting all colors of Yoshies into one article==
==Putting all colors of Yoshies into one article==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{SettledTPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-16|leave as separate articles}}
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|2-16|leave as separate articles}}
I think we should put all the colors in one article, so that helps the wiki get more organized.
I think we should put all the colors in one article, so that helps the wiki get more organized.


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I meant more reference to where you found the name, but I still think that it's a bit loose to be added as a fact. But has enough proof to be logical. I'll stay neutral on this one. Be wary, I'm still not convinced that's enough though. (Also I don't think rideability is a qualification for yoshi, just saying). [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:40, 6 November 2017 (EST)
I meant more reference to where you found the name, but I still think that it's a bit loose to be added as a fact. But has enough proof to be logical. I'll stay neutral on this one. Be wary, I'm still not convinced that's enough though. (Also I don't think rideability is a qualification for yoshi, just saying). [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:40, 6 November 2017 (EST)
:I imagine the name came from a shokakugan guide or the Japanese ''Mario Party Advance''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:41, 6 November 2017 (EST)
:I imagine the name came from a shokakugan guide or the Japanese ''Mario Party Advance''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:41, 6 November 2017 (EST)
::The name came definitely earlier than ''Mario Party Advance'', since {{file link|SMAGPB6 Dorrie.png|an official Japanese book published by Shogakukan in 1999 already reported said name}}, so I guess it came from the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario 64.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)
::The name came definitely earlier than ''Mario Party Advance'', since {{media link|SMAGPB6 Dorrie.png|an official Japanese book published by Shogakukan in 1999 already reported said name}}, so I guess it came from the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario 64.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)
Eh, as long as the administrators are fine, go ahead and add it. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:48, 6 November 2017 (EST)
Eh, as long as the administrators are fine, go ahead and add it. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:48, 6 November 2017 (EST)


The problem is what you mean by ''related''. Did the designers of [[Dorrie]] and [[Plessie]] follow guidelines similar to those used to design Yoshi and named the characters with the 「ッシー」 suffix accordingly? Likely yes. Does this mean that they are all related species? Definitely not! [https://microsite.nintendo-europe.com/nintendokidsclub/en_GB/read_and_discover/yoshi_facts Currently Yoshi is not considered a dinosaur], with the [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Kids section of Nintendo Co., Ltd. site|bio of Nintendo co., Ltd. from last year]] noting how the saddle is indeed a shell and suggesting that the possible candidates to identify Yoshi's species are dinosaurs and turtles. [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2017/October/Nintendo-Classic-Mini-SNES-developer-interview-Volume-5-Super-Mario-World-and-Super-Mario-World-2-Yoshi-s-Island-1290850.html This year's interview about the origin of Yoshi finally clarified that indeed Yoshi had a shell on the back and was intended to be related to turtles from the start]. Plessie on the other hand is officially considered a dinosaur. To remind you how similar development guidelines can often create characters which are then completely unrelated from a species point of view, I'd like to remind you how [[Madame Broode and Chain Chompikins|Madame Broode]] and the [[Broodals]] were almost surely based on [[Bowser]] and the [[Koopalings]], yet they are completely unrelated from a species point of view, since the formers are rabbits, the latters turtles.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)
The problem is what you mean by ''related''. Did the designers of [[Dorrie]] and [[Plessie]] follow guidelines similar to those used to design Yoshi and named the characters with the 「ッシー」 suffix accordingly? Likely yes. Does this mean that they are all related species? Definitely not! [https://microsite.nintendo-europe.com/nintendokidsclub/en_GB/read_and_discover/yoshi_facts Currently Yoshi is not considered a dinosaur], with the [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Kids section of Nintendo Co., Ltd. site|bio of Nintendo co., Ltd. from last year]] noting how the saddle is indeed a shell and suggesting that the possible candidates to identify Yoshi's species are dinosaurs and turtles. [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2017/October/Nintendo-Classic-Mini-SNES-developer-interview-Volume-5-Super-Mario-World-and-Super-Mario-World-2-Yoshi-s-Island-1290850.html This year's interview about the origin of Yoshi finally clarified that indeed Yoshi had a shell on the back and was intended to be related to turtles from the start]. Plessie on the other hand is officially considered a dinosaur. To remind you how similar development guidelines can often create characters which are then completely unrelated from a species point of view, I'd like to remind you how [[Madame Broode and Chain Chompikins|Madame Broode]] and the [[Broodals]] were almost surely based on [[Bowser]] and the [[Koopalings]], yet they are completely unrelated from a species point of view, since the formers are rabbits, the latters turtles.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)
:This comes from what, Nintendo of Europe or something? I'm talking something I'm pretty sure Miyamoto said (it was him or one of the other two). I've come to sort of distrust things that NoE have said, due to the fact that they so heavily contradict things that have been previously said. If Yoshi's not a Dinosaur, why is he the star inhabitant of [[Dinosaur Land]]? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:30, 6 November 2017 (EST)
:This comes from what, Nintendo of Europe or something? I'm talking something I'm pretty sure Miyamoto said (it was him or one of the other two). I've come to sort of distrust things that NoE have said, due to the fact that they so heavily contradict things that have been previously said. If Yoshi's not a Dinosaur, why is he the star inhabitant of [[Dinosaur Land]]? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:30, 6 November 2017 (EST)
::The one who said that Yoshi is related to turtles is none other than [[Takashi Tezuka]], the director of ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and character designer as well (he himself made some sketches of Yoshi's preliminary design, correcting [[Shigefumi Hino]]'s first sketch of Yoshi which was lizard-like). And this is not an European thing, [https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/c/article/cb34ab17-9135-11e7-8cda-063b7ac45a6d.html it's on the Japanese site as well], with the very same text. Anyway, if you read [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-VAAAJ.pdf the original Japanese manual of ''Super Mario World''], you'll see that Yoshi was actually introduced as a 「ドラゴン」, a ''dragon'' (which is also why the [[Dragon Coin]]s were named like that!), {{file link|SMA2 NOG page 14.png|this being the term used to define Yoshi also in ''Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2''}}. Nonetheless, on {{file link|SMB4 NOG page 16.png|page 16 of the ''Nintendo Official Guidebook'' of said game}} Yoshi was indeed stated to be a 「恐竜」, a ''dinosaur'', as well. Regarding him being a turtle, well, this is actually pretty old, as {{file link|BabyGyoshi.png|the saddle was changed to be more shell-like in Yoshi's Story}}, and in the ''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010#Super Mario History Booklet|Super Mario History Booklet]]'' released in 2010 {{file link|SMHAmerican SMW and SMAS.jpg|Tezuka already said that Yoshi was supposed to be a species of Koopa}}, the only difference is that since last year Yoshi being a turtle started to appear in official bios and nowadays Tezuka speaks more openly, stating that Yoshi is indeed intended to be a turtle.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)
::The one who said that Yoshi is related to turtles is none other than [[Takashi Tezuka]], the director of ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and character designer as well (he himself made some sketches of Yoshi's preliminary design, correcting [[Shigefumi Hino]]'s first sketch of Yoshi which was lizard-like). And this is not an European thing, [https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/c/article/cb34ab17-9135-11e7-8cda-063b7ac45a6d.html it's on the Japanese site as well], with the very same text. Anyway, if you read [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-VAAAJ.pdf the original Japanese manual of ''Super Mario World''], you'll see that Yoshi was actually introduced as a 「ドラゴン」, a ''dragon'' (which is also why the [[Dragon Coin]]s were named like that!), {{media link|SMA2 NOG page 14.png|this being the term used to define Yoshi also in ''Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2''}}. Nonetheless, on {{media link|SMB4 NOG page 16.png|page 16 of the ''Nintendo Official Guidebook'' of said game}} Yoshi was indeed stated to be a 「恐竜」, a ''dinosaur'', as well. Regarding him being a turtle, well, this is actually pretty old, as {{media link|BabyGyoshi.png|the saddle was changed to be more shell-like in Yoshi's Story}}, and in the ''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010#Super Mario History Booklet|Super Mario History Booklet]]'' released in 2010 {{media link|SMHAmerican SMW and SMAS.jpg|Tezuka already said that Yoshi was supposed to be a species of Koopa}}, the only difference is that since last year Yoshi being a turtle started to appear in official bios and nowadays Tezuka speaks more openly, stating that Yoshi is indeed intended to be a turtle.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)
:::OK. He's the one that said he was ''originally intended'' to be a turtle, now I remember But then he said that "The saddle was supposed to be his shell." This seems to inticatie that that hideous skinny preliminary Yoshi that can be seen with some supplemental material with the SNES Classic was the "turtle" design. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST)
:::OK. He's the one that said he was ''originally intended'' to be a turtle, now I remember But then he said that "The saddle was supposed to be his shell." This seems to inticatie that that hideous skinny preliminary Yoshi that can be seen with some supplemental material with the SNES Classic was the "turtle" design. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST)
::::That's what he stated in 2010, look at what he states now:''I kind of forced the design through, saying, “It’s related to turtles.”'', Hisashi Nogami also sated that the saddle on his back is ''A shell. Even after I joined the company, Tezuka kept insisting that it was a shell.'', finally the interviewer, Akinori Sao, stated ''And that’s how Super Mario World, which debuted Yoshi as kin to turtles, became the top-selling title worldwide for Super NES.''. Ultimately, little has changed from what he already stated in 2010, the little difference is nonetheless there: before it was a thing of the past, now Yoshi is stated to have been designed as related to turtles and to actually have a shell on his back, which perfectly reflects what Yoshi's Japanese bio from yesteryear suggested when it stated ''Even though there's a shell on his back, we actually don't know whether Yoshi's a dinosaur or a turtle!''.--
::::That's what he stated in 2010, look at what he states now:''I kind of forced the design through, saying, “It’s related to turtles.”'', Hisashi Nogami also sated that the saddle on his back is ''A shell. Even after I joined the company, Tezuka kept insisting that it was a shell.'', finally the interviewer, Akinori Sao, stated ''And that’s how Super Mario World, which debuted Yoshi as kin to turtles, became the top-selling title worldwide for Super NES.''. Ultimately, little has changed from what he already stated in 2010, the little difference is nonetheless there: before it was a thing of the past, now Yoshi is stated to have been designed as related to turtles and to actually have a shell on his back, which perfectly reflects what Yoshi's Japanese bio from yesteryear suggested when it stated ''Even though there's a shell on his back, we actually don't know whether Yoshi's a dinosaur or a turtle!''.--
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== Merge all or certain color Yoshis into Yoshi (species) ==
== Merge all or certain color Yoshis into Yoshi (species) ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{SettledTPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|12-1-2|merge}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|12-1-2|merge}}
This proposal will hopefully set out to do what the above tried. As noted, these are all aesthetic differences for the most part. The only time most of these colors affected platform gameplay was in ''Yoshi's Story'', where it decided their favorite fruit. This is not notable enough to have a series of separate articles over something that can simply be given a quick mention in one article. The other time they affected platform gameplay was in ''Super Mario World'', where Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi had a different ability depending on the Koopa shell they had in their mouth, but again, this something that is nonexistent in later appearances. Then there is the Green Yoshi article, which just has [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|overlap]] with the character and species. The proposal has two options: one to include all Yoshi colors in the species article, and one to keep the Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi articles.
This proposal will hopefully set out to do what the above tried. As noted, these are all aesthetic differences for the most part. The only time most of these colors affected platform gameplay was in ''Yoshi's Story'', where it decided their favorite fruit. This is not notable enough to have a series of separate articles over something that can simply be given a quick mention in one article. The other time they affected platform gameplay was in ''Super Mario World'', where Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi had a different ability depending on the Koopa shell they had in their mouth, but again, this something that is nonexistent in later appearances. Then there is the Green Yoshi article, which just has [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|overlap]] with the character and species. The proposal has two options: one to include all Yoshi colors in the species article, and one to keep the Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi articles.


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FanOfYoshi: You might think every Yoshi "deserves its own aricle", but that's inconsistent with how we usually do things as we generally discourage species color variants. The Toad colors have only gotten their own articles due to having a few notable appearances like the Toad Brigade, not for the sake of being a different color. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:46, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
FanOfYoshi: You might think every Yoshi "deserves its own aricle", but that's inconsistent with how we usually do things as we generally discourage species color variants. The Toad colors have only gotten their own articles due to having a few notable appearances like the Toad Brigade, not for the sake of being a different color. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:46, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
:It is when it is enemies. Look at [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18#Split the colored enemies|this]] proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:47, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
:It is when it is enemies. Look at [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 18#Split the colored enemies|this]] proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:47, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
::That's why I specifically brought up the Toad colors. Look carefully and you'll find that unlike the Yoshi colors, they are not about general appearances of each color. This is because that is information that can easily exist in the species article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:59, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
::That's why I specifically brought up the Toad colors. Look carefully and you'll find that unlike the Yoshi colors, they are not about general appearances of each color. This is because that is information that can easily exist in the species article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:59, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
:::I don't even agree with myself in that proposal anymore lmao {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:48, March 11, 2019 (EDT)
:::I don't even agree with myself in that proposal anymore lmao {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:48, March 11, 2019 (EDT)
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== Potential to merge to Yoshi ==
== Potential to merge to Yoshi ==


{{talk}}
I know I'm liable to catch a lot of flak for this, but following the successful merges of Birdo and Boom Boom, I think it's time to examine whether this has any business being its own article. A grand majority of the time, "Yoshi" treated as someone's name is assigned arbitrarily to any nonspecific member regardless of things like color; this can be seen ''at least'' as far back as the ''Yoshi's Story'' manual and occurs even more often today (ie with Kangaroo Yoshi); another good example is with ''Super Mario Sunshine'' ("Yoshi's back, so saddle up!"), where he changes color and dissolves in water. Furthermore, it has been ''explicitly'' stated that "Yoshi" is not a singular individual, with it instead referring to any given one unless stated otherwise. That's not even getting into the fact that in the ''Yoshi'' franchise itself, the green-colored one rarely has any more prominence than any of the other colors, leaving plenty of redundancy between the pages. Also let's not forget how ''Mario Kart 8'' handles his color alts the same way as Shy Guys. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo has no interest in distinguishing these subjects (and in fact, seems to encourage them to be synonymous), so we really should reflect that. The only real example of a game I can think of having a specific "main" Yoshi alongside "minor" Yoshis is ''Super Mario RPG'', where all have such a minor role anyways a single page would also still probably be simpler. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
I know I'm liable to catch a lot of flak for this, but following the successful merges of Birdo and Boom Boom, I think it's time to examine whether this has any business being its own article. A grand majority of the time, "Yoshi" treated as someone's name is assigned arbitrarily to any nonspecific member regardless of things like color; this can be seen ''at least'' as far back as the ''Yoshi's Story'' manual and occurs even more often today (ie with Kangaroo Yoshi); another good example is with ''Super Mario Sunshine'' ("Yoshi's back, so saddle up!"), where he changes color and dissolves in water. Furthermore, it has been ''explicitly'' stated that "Yoshi" is not a singular individual, with it instead referring to any given one unless stated otherwise. That's not even getting into the fact that in the ''Yoshi'' franchise itself, the green-colored one rarely has any more prominence than any of the other colors, leaving plenty of redundancy between the pages. Also let's not forget how ''Mario Kart 8'' handles his color alts the same way as Shy Guys. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo has no interest in distinguishing these subjects (and in fact, seems to encourage them to be synonymous), so we really should reflect that. The only real example of a game I can think of having a specific "main" Yoshi alongside "minor" Yoshis is ''Super Mario RPG'', where all have such a minor role anyways a single page would also still probably be simpler. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
:Funny, I was actually just thinking about this myself. Same can really be said about Toad, since both are just kinda an umbrella term for the overall species. Basically "All Yoshis/Toads are named Yoshi/Toad". But I'm still kinda on the fence about it, since I don't really agree with the merging of Birdo/Birdo's species. So I'm not entirely sure. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:45, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
:Funny, I was actually just thinking about this myself. Same can really be said about Toad, since both are just kinda an umbrella term for the overall species. Basically "All Yoshis/Toads are named Yoshi/Toad". But I'm still kinda on the fence about it, since I don't really agree with the merging of Birdo/Birdo's species. So I'm not entirely sure. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:45, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
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== Merging this with [[Yoshi]] ==
== Merging this with [[Yoshi]] ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|vetoed|Irrespective of the validity of the suggestion, plagiarizing other contributor's writing is ''not'' acceptable.}}When Nintendo includes Yoshi in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colors, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially, I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Yoshi is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario World information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Yoshis are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Yoshi is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article. Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Birdo, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game.
When Nintendo includes Yoshi in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colors, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially, I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Yoshi is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario World information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Yoshis are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Yoshi is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article. Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Birdo, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br>
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*''"Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with '''Birdo''', Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa [...]"'' As I stated, this proposal swaps every instance of "Birdo" with "Yoshi" and vice versa, but this kind of creates an inconsistency with which species/character actually has less information than the other. According to Hewer's proposal, Birdo has less information for character and species each than Yoshi, but this proposal states that Yoshi has less information for those than Birdo. ''Which statement is actually correct here???'' If Yoshi actually has less info, doesn't that mean that Birdo should be ''re-split'', since it's being compared here with other individual characters like Toad and Kamek? Or does Yoshi have more information than Birdo after all, meaning that this is another blindly copied sentence that the proposer never thought twice about, and thus needs to be removed since it's an incorrect argument? Which is it??
*''"Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with '''Birdo''', Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa [...]"'' As I stated, this proposal swaps every instance of "Birdo" with "Yoshi" and vice versa, but this kind of creates an inconsistency with which species/character actually has less information than the other. According to Hewer's proposal, Birdo has less information for character and species each than Yoshi, but this proposal states that Yoshi has less information for those than Birdo. ''Which statement is actually correct here???'' If Yoshi actually has less info, doesn't that mean that Birdo should be ''re-split'', since it's being compared here with other individual characters like Toad and Kamek? Or does Yoshi have more information than Birdo after all, meaning that this is another blindly copied sentence that the proposer never thought twice about, and thus needs to be removed since it's an incorrect argument? Which is it??
Now that this problem is being largely ignored by anyone else is one thing I find concerning (I mean, it ''is'' plagiarism), but what I find even ''more'' concerning is that ''the proposer'', {{User|Teh Other}}, seemingly ignores this problem. In fact, Teh Other seemingly ''never'' left any comment here regarding the issues of the opposition, which are mostly countered by LinkTheLefty and Doc von Schmeltwick instead (the latter being the only other supporter of the proposal). Now the reason why I find the lack of Teh Other's presence concerning is because this proposal is ''his'' opinion, ''his'' reasoning why the Yoshi articles should be merged. And he just... blindly copied Hewer's proposal and swapped a couple of words. Are these his ''actual'' opinions, does he ''really'' think Birdo as a character and as a species have more separate information than Yoshi? Or was he too lazy to write up any arguments himself, and just lazily copied a similar proposal by someone else without ''actually reading'' what it said? I would really like Teh Other to reevaluate his proposal and address the problems from the copied proposal, as well as his actual arguments, ''in his own words''.<br>And again, I want to know if plagiarized proposals like this is actually allowed. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:41, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
Now that this problem is being largely ignored by anyone else is one thing I find concerning (I mean, it ''is'' plagiarism), but what I find even ''more'' concerning is that ''the proposer'', {{User|Teh Other}}, seemingly ignores this problem. In fact, Teh Other seemingly ''never'' left any comment here regarding the issues of the opposition, which are mostly countered by LinkTheLefty and Doc von Schmeltwick instead (the latter being the only other supporter of the proposal). Now the reason why I find the lack of Teh Other's presence concerning is because this proposal is ''his'' opinion, ''his'' reasoning why the Yoshi articles should be merged. And he just... blindly copied Hewer's proposal and swapped a couple of words. Are these his ''actual'' opinions, does he ''really'' think Birdo as a character and as a species have more separate information than Yoshi? Or was he too lazy to write up any arguments himself, and just lazily copied a similar proposal by someone else without ''actually reading'' what it said? I would really like Teh Other to reevaluate his proposal and address the problems from the copied proposal, as well as his actual arguments, ''in his own words''.<br>And again, I want to know if plagiarized proposals like this is actually allowed. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:41, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
:I apologize for not being diligent enough in cancelling this when it was first brought up. This isn't acceptable. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 11:59, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
==Reverse the colored Yoshi merge==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|5-10|Keep colored Yoshi pages merged}}
This is probably going to be a controversial one but here we go! Up until a few years ago, each Yoshi color had its own individual article separate from this page. They were all merged into this article back in 2019 through a TPP you can see earlier on this talk page, and admittedly I supported it at the time, but I've come to believe that this was misguided, makes information on any individual Yoshi color more difficult to find, and was mostly the result of the longtime viewpoint that we don't split color variants, one that I've questioned the usefulness of more as time goes on. Let's say, for example, a reader wants to read only about what games a Red Yoshi appeared in, and/or what unique attributes Red Yoshis have, a perfectly valid possibility. Well, if they want to do that now, good luck. They'll have to comb through a currently 89k byte article and sift out any of the information about every other color of Yoshi.
To show that there is  merit to this idea, I've listed every game where Yoshis have tangible gameplay differences (or other notable information, at least) that I can find:
*''Super Mario World'' - Each Yoshi has a different default ability when it holds a shell in its mouth. The game treats them as separate and you can only find non-green Yoshis in certain levels. The page currently makes no note of which levels they are actually found in, something that would be useful to note.
*''Super Mario Sunshine'' - Each color has a unique ability, and different fruits in the game determine the color. Because of this different missions require different Yoshis. Yes, it's technically a Green Yoshi that changes colors, but a colored Yoshi is a colored Yoshi, no need to split hairs.
*''Super Mario Run'' - Each Yoshi has different unlocking requirements, Blue Yoshi notably is the only Yoshi you can get in the free version of the game.
*''Super Mario Maker 2'' - Red Yoshi has a special fireball spitting ability rather than the tongue.
*''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'' - Depending on the level you play, the Yoshi is different. The article currently doesn't note where they appear. Worth noting that a German Club Nintendo guide gave each colored Yoshi a name in this game, not saying we should name the articles after them or that it's a huge point for splitting, but it's more information unique to each color.
*''Yoshi's Story'' - Each Yoshi has different fruit preferences, additionally Black and White Yoshis have a better Flutter Jump while Super Happy compared to the other colors. Different pitched voices too!
*''Yoshi's Island DS''/''Yoshi's New Island'' - Like SMW2, color is dependent on level, and it's not noted here.
*''Yoshi's Woolly World'' - The available colors are actually dependent on which save file you have, with only Red Yoshi being available by default in all of them. Once again, none of the specifics are noted here.
*''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' - The colored Yoshis have to be rescued in Yoob's Belly to escape and are found in different places. Again, the page barely mentions any of this.
*''Mario Golf: Super Rush'' - Unlock methods are different.
*''Mario Tennis Open'' - Different stats/character classes.
*''Mario Super Sluggers'' - Different stats. I believe they also have different roles in the story mode? Don't quote me on that, it's been a while since I've played the game and our coverage of the story mode isn't that great.
*''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' - Some of the alternate colors are used as staff ghosts.
*''Mario Kart Tour'' - Pretty much every difference that exists in the game. Introduced at different times with varying availability, different favored courses, and different special items.
I'm aware that several of these on their own may not necessarily warrant a split, however I'm of the opinion that, at some point, the whole becomes worth more than the sum of its parts. Therefore I don't find it useful to argue that any of these individual cases aren't worth splitting.
If this passes, the following articles will be reinstated for consistency:
*Black Yoshi
*Blue Yoshi
*Brown Yoshi
*Green Yoshi
*Light Blue Yoshi
*Orange Yoshi
*Pink Yoshi
*Purple Yoshi
*Red Yoshi
*White Yoshi
*Yellow Yoshi
The Yoshi (species) page will remain intact and will continue to cover general information on Yoshis as needed.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>November 12, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to November 19, 2022, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Save the dinos!
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Strong support per proposal.
#{{User|KingGeoshiKoopshi64}} Per all. Some colored Yoshis have their own function and every indivitual color has it's purpose and history too. If there is a gallery for colored Yoshis then consistently so should their own articles and it makes it easier to read for what one they want to read about.
#{{User|Tails777}} Strong support. I've been pushing for this for some time; Yoshis have had more examples of individual statistics than most other color based species. And again, to draw the comparison I've drawn multiple times, we have articles for karts and gliders that are [[Blue Biddybuggy|palette]] [[Warship|swaps]] [[Green Cheep Charger|at]] [[Bull's-Eye Banzai|best]] and they still get articles for the same differences these Yoshis have; different names (albeit color based for the Yoshis), different favorite and favored courses, except the Yoshis have the added benefit of different items (barring Red Yoshi). I know Shy Guys and Toads have the same distinction in ''Mario Kart Tour'', but these Yoshis spread to a variety of different games, many of which are just as notable in their gameplay differing stats.
#{{user|WildWario}} Per proposal.
====Oppose====
#{{User|Swallow}} I'd still find this a bit excessive. The differences mentioned for games like Sunshine, Partners in Time, Yoshi's Island games don't really seem major enough to me to create an entirely new article for it. A majority of these differences can still be easily noted in this article without bloating it too much.
#{{User|Hewer}} Basically per the proposal that merged them in the first place. If anything the points here feel like they're justifying a merge - if there's information missing from the article that concerns multiple Yoshi colours then all that needs doing is adding it, how is splitting the information across different articles meant to help?
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per all, plus certain games having ambiguities with things like brown/orange and white/really really light blue.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per all.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} This proposal fails to take into account different-colored members of other species that have similar different "stats" in the listed games, and I also agree with Hewer that it feels like attempting to falsely justify a split. Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} After much careful consideration, I chose to oppose this. This is a tricky issue because of the few games where they do indeed have a unique ability. The problem is that there aren't ''enough'' appearances of these Yoshis to not have redundant sayings or stubs. Part of me did want to see separate articles for some of the Yoshis, but I haven't seen an attempt to show what a page could look like if it tries to split one of these colors. I saw what older pages tried to do with the colors, and the pages looked bad and cluttered. The article needs to make it easier to find a specific color which Waluigi Time is right about. This can be fixed by having a list of appearances by color section with a small table.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Perall.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all and my support for the merge in the first place in the prior proposal.
#{{User|RealStuffMister}} Per all
====Comments====
@Hewer: The missing information is simply a separate issue that I'm making note of, obviously regardless of the direction this goes in that information should be added. It's relevant here however because that would be additional information unique to each color. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:31, October 29, 2022 (EDT)
:Except that much of it concerns all the colours and would be kind of annoying to read if it was split across different pages (Yoshi's Woolly World for example). I feel like these subjects are so intertwined and have so much information in common that keeping them on one page is the best and most logical option, which is why we don't split most colour variants in the first place - I'm sure one could make a case for splitting Koopa Troopa colours or Toad colours for unique traits they have but the problem is that they still have tons of information in common to the point splitting over just mentioning all the differences in one place is less convenient and pushing [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|once and only once]] a little. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:55, October 29, 2022 (EDT)
Splitting or merging the Yoshi articles into one is a rather complex issue. So I'll go into an analysis real quick:
'''''[[Super Mario World]]''''': [[Yoshi]], Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi are somewhat distinct from each other as they have a slight difference in ability. However, splitting all four of these Yoshis is difficult because we'd say the same thing about Yoshi's friends, the only difference being their shell ability. Out of all the Yoshis, Red is probably the most splittable, as he has appeared in [[Super Mario Maker 2|more than one game with a unique ability]]. That said, that doesn't add that much more to him as a character. I have a similar issue regarding [[Blue Toad (character)|Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series)|Yellow Toad]].
'''''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]''''': We have some distinct abilities with the Yoshis here, even if they only spit [[Juice|juice]]. Once again, there isn't enough to split the page for clarity. Furthermore, all of these Yoshi colors are unique from the other games, so you couldn't even come up with enough information for just one of these colors.
'''''[[Super Mario Run]]''''': I don't think there's anything to split off here. All of the Yoshis are just color swaps.
'''''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]''''': Once again, Red Yoshi is a compelling debacle. Given that these are one of his few appearances with a unique ability, it is worth noting. Not sure if he has enough appearances to split him, though, as it's pretty rare for Yoshis of different colors to have special abilities other than stat differences.
'''''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]''''': These are just color swaps and nothing more. The names are worth noting in that section of the article.
''[[Yoshi's Story]]'': This is interesting; we have Yoshis with different [[fruit]] preferences. Black and White Yoshi even have a distinctive [[Flutter Jump]] ability.
'''''[[Yoshi's Island DS]]'''''/'''''[[Yoshi's New Island]]''''': Same problem with ''YI''.
'''''[[Yoshi's Woolly World]]''''': Colors appear to be cosmetic and not gameplay-related.
'''''[[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time]]''''': Do each of the Yoshis have a unique personality?
'''''[[Mario Golf: Super Rush]]''''': Same issue with ''SMR''.
'''''[[Mario Tennis Open]]'''''/'''''[[Mario Super Sluggers]]''''': We now have different stats. This can create a loophole for splitting [[Toad (species)|Toad]] colors because of this. That's why stats are not worth anything.
'''''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]''''': These are alternate colors for Yoshi.
'''''[[Mario Kart Tour]]''''': Even variants of other characters have unique abilities. Is this worth splitting?
So with my analysis, here are the Yoshis that are the most distinguishable in abilities:
*Red Yoshi
*Blue Yoshi
*Yellow Yoshi
*Orange Yoshi
*Pink Yoshi
*Purple Yoshi
*Light Blue Yoshi
*Black Yoshi
*White Yoshi
I didn't include Green Yoshi as Yoshi serves as the Green Yoshi, which is evident in ''Sluggers'', where Red Yoshi refers to Yoshi as Green Yoshi. This is why we should have a possible appearances section for Yoshi since he has some unclear appearances.
A while back, [[Talk:Shell#Create_a_generic_Koopa_Shell_article,_reorganize_the_colored_shell_articles|we attempted to make a Koopa Shell article covering generic instances of a Koopa Shell and only bringing up other colors when it impacts colors.]] This could also work for the Yoshis since there are few select times when they have a unique ability.
As for now, I'm not sure whether or not we should split them. If I were, the colors I mentioned are the only ones I would choose to separate, and even then, it's tricky not to make these feel like stub articles. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 15:23, October 31, 2022 (EDT)
:Regarding ''Tour'' specifically, a proposal passed a while ago to make a page for each character's variants (i.e. a page containing all of Mario's variants) but it hasn't been enacted yet. (And honestly, I'd be down for splitting them into their own individual pages, but I know that's pretty radical.) Like I said, yeah, some of these aren't the most split-worthy on their own (or really split-worthy at all), but there are appearances that are worth splitting out, and enough information across the series to make a split viable. Might as well include everything relevant, after all. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:47, November 2, 2022 (EDT)
I haven't seen the opposition address the organizational issue of all colored Yoshis being dumped into a single article making it harder to find just information on any single color, which is one of the biggest issues here, in my opinion. Any counterarguments to that?
@Archivist Toadette: Not really, colored Yoshis have far more utility beyond just stat differences (most notably World, Sunshine, and Maker 2, where color impacts what abilities you have) and it's much easier to justify splitting colored Yoshis than colored Toads or Shy Guys (not something I'd oppose, to be fair). It's not exactly apples to apples. As an aside, I hope this wasn't your intention but your specific wording of "falsely justify" makes it sound like I'm presenting this in a deliberately misleading way or outright lying, which I don't appreciate. If you don't find it convincing, that's fine, but please try not to use terms that make the situation seem so objective. Everything I said in the proposal was accurate to my knowledge and none of the points are meant to individually justify a Yoshi split but are meant to serve as a collective example of there reasonably being different things that can be said about them in many games. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:47, November 2, 2022 (EDT)
:The way I see it, the scope of this proposal is just too broad. I can totally see something like {{fake link|Red Yoshi}} being split out ONLY to cover the ''Super Mario World''/''Super Mario Maker 2'' form of Yoshi, but this proposal is calling for EVERY color variant of Yoshi to be split regardless of how major the color variants actually are. In the future, I suggest having an option to limit the splitting to just the ''Super Mario World'' forms (the two that don't have a proper article yet). {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 12:36, November 3, 2022 (EDT)
:The argument that it would be hard to find such and such information goes both ways. If the article was split then it wouldn't be as easy to find information on all the colours and how they relate. And again, Toads and Koopa Troopas can have many of these same arguments applied, but in my opinion it's more concise and informative to have one article saying 'green ones go off the edge and red ones don't' than to split that into two extremely similar articles. Besides, I can't really think of a game that only has Yoshis of one particular colour besides green as the colours share basically all of their appearances with each other, so it really wouldn't be that hard to find information on any given appearance of a particular colour. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:12, November 4, 2022 (EDT)
'''@Wikiboy10:''' I can offer my attempt at an example of what a Red Yoshi article could look like [[User:Tails777/Work#Red Yoshi|here]]. If this helps you or anyone else. It can always use improvement if anyone thinks it could work, but needs more work.
Also, as a general comment, there's more to the colored Yoshis in ''Mario Super Sluggers'' than just different stats. They are A. all unlockable and can't be used right away. B. can't be selected as team captains. C. have different star swings/pitches from Yoshi himself, which is a bit more notable than other alternate colors since Yoshi has a captain specific star swing/pitch. and D. they do indeed have different recruitment methods in Story Mode, with some of them offering different challenges while Red Yoshi simply requires the return of his Brush.  {{User:Tails777/sig}}
== History for this page ==
This article is another great candidate for splitting its history section. It would be funny if the history page would be split into "History of Yoshi (species)", but it seems better if we can split it to "'''History of Yoshi species'''". {{User:Derekblue1/sig}} 09:48, December 2, 2023 (EST)
== I've had it ==
Okay, which one of you jokers deleted those light-blue Yoshi sprites?! {{User:BeefRocket/sig}}

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