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| I have and SoS states that only the main Yoshi has appeared in it. See the main Yoshi's talk page.{{User:Knife/sig}} | | I have and SoS states that only the main Yoshi has appeared in it. See the main Yoshi's talk page.{{User:Knife/sig}} |
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| I personally think the Yoshis on sunshine are a sub spiecies of Yoshis who change color as they eat. {{unsigned|Pal101}} | | I personally think the Yoshis on sunshine are a sub spiecies of Yoshis who change color as they eat. |
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| ==Colors== | | ==Colors== |
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| :He does seem robotic, but he's probably still worthy of mention as he's clearly based on the Yoshis. I agree with you in that I don't think he should be listed under Notable Yoshis, though. {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}} | | :He does seem robotic, but he's probably still worthy of mention as he's clearly based on the Yoshis. I agree with you in that I don't think he should be listed under Notable Yoshis, though. {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}} |
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| i think yoob is a yoshi.[[User:purifieda|<span style="mushroom:serif;color:#740">purifieda</span>]][[File:NSMBW Super Mushroom Artwork.png|20px]]
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| ==Yoshi (isle delfino)?== | | ==Yoshi (isle delfino)?== |
| Either we should make another section, or make a new article! The Yoshis on Isle Delfino CAN'T be the Yoshis we know! That might have to change this Yoshi article to Yoshi (yoshi's island) or something. Tell me no or yes. It's facts! I mean, does Yoshi have cancer all the time? No! New article, or new section? {{unsigned|Minimariolover10}} | | Either we should make another section, or make a new article! The Yoshis on Isle Delfino CAN'T be the Yoshis we know! That might have to change this Yoshi article to Yoshi (yoshi's island) or something. Tell me no or yes. It's facts! I mean, does Yoshi have cancer all the time? No! New article, or new section? |
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| :New section would probably be best, or just put Isle Delfino info in the appropriate sections in this article. Just because the game mechanics are different doesn't mean these are a different species of Yoshi. They are all the same Yoshis - gameplay is different between all games. And I don't think any character has ever had cancer in the Mario games. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]] | | :New section would probably be best, or just put Isle Delfino info in the appropriate sections in this article. Just because the game mechanics are different doesn't mean these are a different species of Yoshi. They are all the same Yoshis - gameplay is different between all games. And I don't think any character has ever had cancer in the Mario games. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]] |
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| ::Actually the Super Mario Sunshine's manual says '''Yoshis found in Isle Delfino can't stand water''', so it's likely they are separate from the other Yoshis.
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| [[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:06, 11 February 2015 (EST)
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| Let's just do another section. I'm just saying, those can't be Yoshi's Island Yoshis! And I was only kidding about cancer, because ya know how they're about to do die if they're green. [[User:Minimariolover10|Minimariolover10]] | | Let's just do another section. I'm just saying, those can't be Yoshi's Island Yoshis! And I was only kidding about cancer, because ya know how they're about to do die if they're green. [[User:Minimariolover10|Minimariolover10]] |
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| i think yoshis from isle delfino are yoshi's island yoshis. {{unsigned|Purifieda}}
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| ==Gold Yoshi== | | ==Gold Yoshi== |
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| ==Mario Super Sluggers== | | ==Mario Super Sluggers== |
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| Why is there no info about Mario Super Sluggers in this article? Strange...{{User:Fg/sig}} | | Why is there no info about Mario Super Sluggers in this article? Strange...{{User:Fg/sig}} |
| :Everything where there's a single character called "Yoshi" on the selection screen is placed in the [[Yoshi]] article. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 00:02, 22 June 2008 (EDT) | | :Everything where there's a single character called "Yoshi" on the selection screen is placed in the [[Yoshi]] article. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 00:02, 22 June 2008 (EDT) |
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| ==Merge color Yoshies into Yoshi (species)== | | ==Merge color Yoshies into Yoshi (species)== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|canceled}}
| | <span style="color:grey;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">PROPOSAL DELETED 2-4</span> |
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| [[Black Yoshi]], [[Red Yoshi]], [[Yellow Yoshi]], [[Blue Yoshi]], [[Orange Yoshi]], [[White Yoshi]], [[Light Blue Yoshi]], [[Brown Yoshi]], [[Pink Yoshi]], [[Green Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]. Most of those Yoshies have minute differences between them, and the ones that do have notable differences, well, those differences just aren't notable enough. If we leave, say, White, Black, Red, Blue and Yellow split and merge the rest, it wouldn't be consistent, whereas if we leave one or two really major ones, it would be fair, like [[Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad]]. | | [[Black Yoshi]], [[Red Yoshi]], [[Yellow Yoshi]], [[Blue Yoshi]], [[Orange Yoshi]], [[White Yoshi]], [[Light Blue Yoshi]], [[Brown Yoshi]], [[Pink Yoshi]], [[Green Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]. Most of those Yoshies have minute differences between them, and the ones that do have notable differences, well, those differences just aren't notable enough. If we leave, say, White, Black, Red, Blue and Yellow split and merge the rest, it wouldn't be consistent, whereas if we leave one or two really major ones, it would be fair, like [[Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad]]. |
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| | {{scroll box|content= |
| '''Proposer:''' {{User|Reversinator}}<br> | | '''Proposer:''' {{User|Reversinator}}<br> |
| '''Deadline:''' 24 February, 2010 20:00 | | '''Deadline:''' 24 February, 2010 20:00 |
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| ===Support=== | | <div id=fh3 class=mw-headline>Support</div> |
| #{{User|Reversinator}} Proposer. | | #{{User|Reversinator}} Proposer. |
| #{{User|Red Shell 68066vr}} Per Reversinator. | | #{{User|Red Shell 68066vr}} Per Reversinator. |
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| ===Oppose=== | | <div id=fh3 class=mw-headline>Oppose</div> |
| #{{user|Tucayo}} - This has been rejected previously. Yoshis are different, have different powers, abilities, etc | | #{{user|Tucayo}} - This has been rejected previously. Yoshis are different, have different powers, abilities, etc |
| #{{User|Time Q}}: Strict NO. Per Tucayo, they are all different, there are also some sources (comics) which are not yet included in the wiki in which there are also differently-colored Yoshis who have different caracteristics etc. This merging mania on the wiki has to have an end. We're the Mario Wiki, what else could we cover exactly if not a major species in the ''Mario'' series? | | #{{User|Time Q}}: Strict NO. Per Tucayo, they are all different, there are also some sources (comics) which are not yet included in the wiki in which there are also differently-colored Yoshis who have different caracteristics etc. This merging mania on the wiki has to have an end. We're the Mario Wiki, what else could we cover exactly if not a major species in the ''Mario'' series? |
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| #{{User|Supermariofan14}} Per Tucayo. | | #{{User|Supermariofan14}} Per Tucayo. |
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| ===Comments=== | | <div id=fh3 class=mw-headline>Comments</div> |
| @Tucayo: You say that the idea was rejected in the past, but now that I look at this talk page, there's a section towards the top of the page in where Knife and KPH (both sysops at the time) agree in merging the articles. Although why it never happened is beyond my knowledge. --{{User|Garlic Man}} | | @Tucayo: You say that the idea was rejected in the past, but now that I look at this talk page, there's a section towards the top of the page in where Knife and KPH (both sysops at the time) agree in merging the articles. Although why it never happened is beyond my knowledge. --{{User|Garlic Man}} |
| :All right, where has this been previously discussed? {{User|Reversinator}} | | :All right, where has this been previously discussed? {{User|Reversinator}} |
| I also notice that most of the Yoshi color articles are either short, one-section articles (e.g. [[Orange Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]), and some, like [[Light Blue Yoshi]] are a collection of one-line sections, many of them simply discussing a color-change of Yoshi as a playable character. If one of [[Yoshi]]'s color swaps is Light Blue, does that mean that it is then a different character entirely? If anybody remembers the {{fake link|Mario (species)}} article (which is now in BJAODN I believe), it was something silly about Mario being a species because of his different "pigments". That article was treated as a joke (appropriately so), but the way these Yoshi articles are written imply that when Yoshi from ''Super Mario Galaxy'' eats a fruit and becomes an orange color, it has become a different character rather than just a differently-colored generic [[Yoshi]]. This is something that should be cleared up. --{{User|Garlic Man}} | | I also notice that most of the Yoshi color articles are either short, one-section articles (e.g. [[Orange Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]), and some, like [[Light Blue Yoshi]] are a collection of one-line sections, many of them simply discussing a color-change of Yoshi as a playable character. If one of [[Yoshi]]'s color swaps is Light Blue, does that mean that it is then a different character entirely? If anybody remembers the {{fakelink|Mario (species)}} article (which is now in BJAODN I believe), it was something silly about Mario being a species because of his different "pigments". That article was treated as a joke (appropriately so), but the way these Yoshi articles are written imply that when Yoshi from ''Super Mario Galaxy'' eats a fruit and becomes an orange color, it has become a different character rather than just a differently-colored generic [[Yoshi]]. This is something that should be cleared up. --{{User|Garlic Man}} |
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| If it's just a different color change as associated with an ability, I think it should stay like that in the Yoshi article, as it refers the color of the Yoshi. Just don't list directly as the main orange Yoshi; just say "In Super Mario Galaxy 2, when a Green Yoshi eats blah, he changes color, which is orange. Note that this is not an actual orange Yoshi, just a color change that represents an orange Yoshi" or something like that. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} | | If it's just a different color change as associated with an ability, I think it should stay like that in the Yoshi article, as it refers the color of the Yoshi. Just don't list directly as the main orange Yoshi; just say "In Super Mario Galaxy 2, when a Green Yoshi eats blah, he changes color, which is orange. Note that this is not an actual orange Yoshi, just a color change that represents an orange Yoshi" or something like that. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} |
| :You still haven't explained where it was originally discussed. {{User|Reversinator}} | | :You still haven't explained where it was originally discussed. {{User|Reversinator}} |
| ::Well, it wasn't directly explained [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18|here]], but it's still the same subject. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} | | ::Well, it wasn't directly explained [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 18|here]], but it's still the same subject. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} |
| :::This proposal of the opposite of that proposal. {{User|Reversinator}} | | :::This proposal of the opposite of that proposal. {{User|Reversinator}} |
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| @Reversinator: I know it was the opposite, but it's the main reason why we have the Yoshi pages all separate and other colored enemies merged. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} | | @Reversinator: I know it was the opposite, but it's the main reason why we have the Yoshi pages all separate and other colored enemies merged. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} |
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| ==Assuming== | | ==Assuming== |
| | {{talk}} |
| Are we just assuming things about Yoshis? | | Are we just assuming things about Yoshis? |
| First of all, how do we know the Yoshi that appears as a playable character in Mario games is the same as the Green Yoshi that appears in games as a species? Shouldn't the appearances of Yoshi where it is a species be specific solely to the Green Yoshis page? The appearances where he is playable in spin-offs or is clearly his own character are the only appearances that should even be on his page. | | First of all, how do we know the Yoshi that appears as a playable character in Mario games is the same as the Green Yoshi that appears in games as a species? Shouldn't the appearances of Yoshi where it is a species be specific solely to the Green Yoshis page? The appearances where he is playable in spin-offs or is clearly his own character are the only appearances that should even be on his page. |
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| Your getting it all wrong when Yoshi first appeared, he first appear in [[Yoshi| The game with the same name as Yoshi.]] But, if you mean the Mario series, your right. ~~User:Paper Culex~~ | | Your getting it all wrong when Yoshi first appeared, he first appear in [[Yoshi| The game with the same name as Yoshi.]] But, if you mean the Mario series, your right. ~~User:Paper Culex~~ |
| :The First Appearance concerns the overall ''Mario'' series, so the article is correct. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 18:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC) | | :The First Appearance concerns the overall ''Mario'' series, so the article is correct. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 18:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC) |
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| ==Putting all colors of Yoshies into one article== | | ==Putting all colors of Yoshies into one article== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|2-16|leave as separate articles}}
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| I think we should put all the colors in one article, so that helps the wiki get more organized. | | I think we should put all the colors in one article, so that helps the wiki get more organized. |
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|MarioManiac}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|MarioManiac}}<br> |
| '''Deadline''': June 1, 2011, 23:59 GMT | | '''Deadline''': June 1st, 2011 23:59 GMT |
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| ====Support==== | | ====Support==== |
| #{{User|MarioManiac}} Per my proposal. | | #{{User|MarioManiac}} Per my proposal. |
| #{{User|Mpeng}} Given that all of the different colored Yoshi articles don't seem to have all too much useful information, I say merge them. Unless someone can come along and add a considerable amount to each of them.
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| ====Oppose==== | | ====Oppose==== |
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| #{{User|Doopliss101}} Per Goomba's Shoe15 and Tails777. | | #{{User|Doopliss101}} Per Goomba's Shoe15 and Tails777. |
| #{{User|Zero777}} We already discuss about this, but per all. | | #{{User|Zero777}} We already discuss about this, but per all. |
| | #{{User|Superfiremario}} Per <s>Koopa Troopa's Boot15</s> Goomba's Shoe15. |
| #{{User|DKPetey99}} Different color ones appear in different games. I guess thats my way of saying: "<s>Per the Goomba in a shoe-sized 15</s> That was lame! Per Goomba's Shoe15." | | #{{User|DKPetey99}} Different color ones appear in different games. I guess thats my way of saying: "<s>Per the Goomba in a shoe-sized 15</s> That was lame! Per Goomba's Shoe15." |
| #{{User|Mariomario64}} Per those who per [[User:Goomba's Shoe15|Goomba's Shoe15]]. | | #{{User|Mariomario64}} Per those who per [[User:Goomba's Shoe15|Goomba's Shoe15]]. |
| #{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}Per the best thing Goombas Shoe15has ever said,and per the opposing comments on the earlier version of this proposal | | #{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}Per the best thing Goombas Shoe15has ever said,and per the opposing comments on the earlier version of this proposal |
| #{{User|BoygeyDude}}
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| #{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} I have dealt with this extensively before and my reasons for opposing any split between these articles stand. My reason: all have different abilities.
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| #{{User|Mario4Ever}} Je suis d'accord avec tout le monde.
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| #{{User|M&SG}} - Not all Yoshi colors have appeared in each game. Keeping them separate helps to figure out which games they've appeared in, along with their abilities.
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| #{{User|Mariomaster228}} Per M&SG.
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| #{{User|Mario vs Luigi}} Per all.
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| #{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
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| #{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per all.
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| ====Comments==== | | ====Comments==== |
| @Goomba: | | @Goomba: |
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| {{User:Superfiremario/Sig}} | | {{User:Superfiremario/Sig}} |
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| ==Rideable== | | == Rideable == |
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| Should we move the info of Yoshi being rideable here? I think the Yoshis you ride are Yoshi species. | | Should we move the info of Yoshi being rideable here? I think the Yoshis you ride are Yoshi species. |
| {{User:Superfiremario/Sig}} | | {{User:Superfiremario/Sig}} |
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| yes, i think all yoshis are yoshi species. [[User:purifieda|<span style="mushroom:serif;color:#740">purifieda</span>]][[File:NSMBW Super Mushroom Artwork.png|20px]]
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| :Yeah, most of the info in the [[Yoshi#Powers and Abilities|Powers and Abilities section of Yoshi's page]] can be moved here, although his page should still mention all the abilities. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 09:54, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
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| how can you tell is a Yoshi is female? {{unsigned|Grand Master Gamer}}
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| :Dialogue. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 11:43, 28 June 2014 (EDT)
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| ==Are Yoshis no longer dinosaurs?==
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| The Nintendo U.K.'s "Nintendo Kids Club" site says in the "Read & discover" section that Yoshi is not a dinosaur. Is it just a "mistake" of this site or has any information that states that Yoshi is a dinosaur been removed from recent games as well?[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 17:05, 1 December 2014 (EST)
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| ==Source for the artwork of Yoshi without a shoe==
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| What is the source of this very interesting artwork? It seems a Japanese guide or manual related to Super Mario World but there's not much information about it.
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| [[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:15, 11 February 2015 (EST)
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| == I have an idea. ==
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| Why don't you add the order of Yoshis in Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Island DS? --[[User:Mushroom Koop|Mushroom Koop]] ([[User talk:Mushroom Koop|talk]]) 08:42, 21 April 2015 (EDT)
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| :Like what we do for the [[Koopalings#Fighting_order|Koopalings]]? Sounds like a good idea - but perhaps we can do even better by replacing the bulleted list in the [[Yoshi (species)#Coloration|Colouration]] section with a chart about more than just those games - like a presence/absence chart [[Mario_Kart_(series)#Playable_characters|on a spinoff page]], only with the order numbers in the ''Yoshi'' platformers and the number of steps required to get each colour in ''PM:TTYD'' instead of plain check marks. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 17:47, 21 April 2015 (EDT)
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| == Golden Yoshi in the colours section ==
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| Should we add a Golden Yoshi alongside Magenta Yoshi in the colours section, because they are both from the same games? {{User:Pyro Guy/sig}} 12:59, 2 June 2015 (EDT)
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| ==Bahamutt, Dorrie, and Plessie==
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| I have decided to put these three as related to the Yoshi based upon their Japanese names being puns/following the same structure, and their similar heads/anatomy in general/roles, depending on the exact one. Would anyone be opposed to this? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:00, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| I'm a bit iffy on [[Dorrie]], but I can see the other two, after all Dorrie had goggles and no shell. And I think there is enough confusion on the Dorrie Page. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :Doshi, in Japanese. As is Bahamutt. And it was only a shell in prerelease, in the final, it's a saddle, according to the book included with the ''All-Stars 25th anniversary'' thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:10, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| I don't know, weren't you disgusted with the nature of my proposal, and how it's science, and now you're saying the opposite (With a name resembling Yoshi's as proof), stay consistent man. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:13, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :I beg your pardon? Dorrie is still based off of a plesiosaur, just a plesiosaur-version of a Yoshi. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:22, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| I think that's a bit of a stretch, perhaps it's best to just say Dorrie is the the species, cause you know odyssey and all. And I stand by my proposal (although I found an Infobox category for species based on, so that might be a nice thing to try and fail to propose). If there's one thing I can do, it's admit when I'm wrong, I believe you to be right for this case... I still think my proposal is right. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:27, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :I did say ''related'', not outright a member of the Yoshi species. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:29, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| How do you plan on doing that? If so do you have references? [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:30, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :The "related" section of the infobox, due something similar for the template. As for references, I'd say the Japanese name being derived from it, coupled with the similar head shape and rideability, is enough of a reference. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:33, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| I meant more reference to where you found the name, but I still think that it's a bit loose to be added as a fact. But has enough proof to be logical. I'll stay neutral on this one. Be wary, I'm still not convinced that's enough though. (Also I don't think rideability is a qualification for yoshi, just saying). [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:40, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :I imagine the name came from a shokakugan guide or the Japanese ''Mario Party Advance''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:41, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::The name came definitely earlier than ''Mario Party Advance'', since {{file link|SMAGPB6 Dorrie.png|an official Japanese book published by Shogakukan in 1999 already reported said name}}, so I guess it came from the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario 64.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| Eh, as long as the administrators are fine, go ahead and add it. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:48, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| The problem is what you mean by ''related''. Did the designers of [[Dorrie]] and [[Plessie]] follow guidelines similar to those used to design Yoshi and named the characters with the 「ッシー」 suffix accordingly? Likely yes. Does this mean that they are all related species? Definitely not! [https://microsite.nintendo-europe.com/nintendokidsclub/en_GB/read_and_discover/yoshi_facts Currently Yoshi is not considered a dinosaur], with the [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Kids section of Nintendo Co., Ltd. site|bio of Nintendo co., Ltd. from last year]] noting how the saddle is indeed a shell and suggesting that the possible candidates to identify Yoshi's species are dinosaurs and turtles. [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2017/October/Nintendo-Classic-Mini-SNES-developer-interview-Volume-5-Super-Mario-World-and-Super-Mario-World-2-Yoshi-s-Island-1290850.html This year's interview about the origin of Yoshi finally clarified that indeed Yoshi had a shell on the back and was intended to be related to turtles from the start]. Plessie on the other hand is officially considered a dinosaur. To remind you how similar development guidelines can often create characters which are then completely unrelated from a species point of view, I'd like to remind you how [[Madame Broode and Chain Chompikins|Madame Broode]] and the [[Broodals]] were almost surely based on [[Bowser]] and the [[Koopalings]], yet they are completely unrelated from a species point of view, since the formers are rabbits, the latters turtles.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :This comes from what, Nintendo of Europe or something? I'm talking something I'm pretty sure Miyamoto said (it was him or one of the other two). I've come to sort of distrust things that NoE have said, due to the fact that they so heavily contradict things that have been previously said. If Yoshi's not a Dinosaur, why is he the star inhabitant of [[Dinosaur Land]]? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:30, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::The one who said that Yoshi is related to turtles is none other than [[Takashi Tezuka]], the director of ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and character designer as well (he himself made some sketches of Yoshi's preliminary design, correcting [[Shigefumi Hino]]'s first sketch of Yoshi which was lizard-like). And this is not an European thing, [https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/c/article/cb34ab17-9135-11e7-8cda-063b7ac45a6d.html it's on the Japanese site as well], with the very same text. Anyway, if you read [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-VAAAJ.pdf the original Japanese manual of ''Super Mario World''], you'll see that Yoshi was actually introduced as a 「ドラゴン」, a ''dragon'' (which is also why the [[Dragon Coin]]s were named like that!), {{file link|SMA2 NOG page 14.png|this being the term used to define Yoshi also in ''Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2''}}. Nonetheless, on {{file link|SMB4 NOG page 16.png|page 16 of the ''Nintendo Official Guidebook'' of said game}} Yoshi was indeed stated to be a 「恐竜」, a ''dinosaur'', as well. Regarding him being a turtle, well, this is actually pretty old, as {{file link|BabyGyoshi.png|the saddle was changed to be more shell-like in Yoshi's Story}}, and in the ''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010#Super Mario History Booklet|Super Mario History Booklet]]'' released in 2010 {{file link|SMHAmerican SMW and SMAS.jpg|Tezuka already said that Yoshi was supposed to be a species of Koopa}}, the only difference is that since last year Yoshi being a turtle started to appear in official bios and nowadays Tezuka speaks more openly, stating that Yoshi is indeed intended to be a turtle.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :::OK. He's the one that said he was ''originally intended'' to be a turtle, now I remember But then he said that "The saddle was supposed to be his shell." This seems to inticatie that that hideous skinny preliminary Yoshi that can be seen with some supplemental material with the SNES Classic was the "turtle" design. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::::That's what he stated in 2010, look at what he states now:''I kind of forced the design through, saying, “It’s related to turtles.”'', Hisashi Nogami also sated that the saddle on his back is ''A shell. Even after I joined the company, Tezuka kept insisting that it was a shell.'', finally the interviewer, Akinori Sao, stated ''And that’s how Super Mario World, which debuted Yoshi as kin to turtles, became the top-selling title worldwide for Super NES.''. Ultimately, little has changed from what he already stated in 2010, the little difference is nonetheless there: before it was a thing of the past, now Yoshi is stated to have been designed as related to turtles and to actually have a shell on his back, which perfectly reflects what Yoshi's Japanese bio from yesteryear suggested when it stated ''Even though there's a shell on his back, we actually don't know whether Yoshi's a dinosaur or a turtle!''.--
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| [[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:32, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankylosaurus Shelled dinosaurs exist.] But they're more Bowser-like. And as ancient reptiles, they are, indeed, related to turtles. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:38, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :::::On a related note, up until the most recent Nintendo 3DS / Wii U games, the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series has [[List_of_Yoshi_profiles_and_statistics#Super_Smash_Bros._series|consistently]] called Yoshi a dinosaur. Maybe Tezuka's position explains the sudden stop. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:42, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::::::I'd stll like an explanation behind Dinosaur Land. If Yoshi is a turtle dragon and Rex is a dragon, the only dinosaurs left are Dino Rhino and Dino Torch, found solely on Chocolate Island, and Reznor, which is a 3-time miniboss. Oh yeah, and that ghost Eerie. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:46, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :::::::I think that, ''conceptually'', Yoshi is not a dinosaur, but it's been an established factoid for over twenty years that it's really silly to backpedal on it now. Stranger things have happened, though. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:55, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::::::::Well, the official Japanese guide of ''Super Mario World'' stated that he was a dinosaur as well, not to say that the Japanese bio of last year still mentioned the word ''dinosaur''. It's a term that also appeared in Japan, although there he was mainly referred to as a dragon. To go more in the detail about the relationship between Yoshi and Dinosaur Land, though, Tezuka actually also talked about this in this year's interview: ''When we started making Super Mario World, we were working with the concept of a dinosaur land, so I had Hino do art for a kind of reptile.''. On Super Smash Bros., the dates indeed match, as ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl'' was released in 2008, before the 2010 reveal that Yoshi was intended to be a turtle and the subsequent ongoing process that is apparently more and more leading to Yoshi being considered a turtle. But if you want to look how important was stating that Yoshi's saddle is a shell in starting this process, look no further than the ''[[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Mario & Sonic series|Mario & Sonic series]]'': after ''[[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games]]'' (the first) Yoshi was no longer stated to be a dinosaur, and indeed it was actually the DS version of ''[[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games (Nintendo DS)|Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games]]'' that revealed in 2009 [https://youtu.be/KwaS6KkLfDE?list=PLDKzS4Vtdasl7-ywTCGticEYwoFi1QzAd&t=1278 that Yoshi's saddle is actually a shell].--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:04, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::::::::Aaaaaaaanyways, if none of Yoshi, Bahamutt, Dorrie, and Plessie are dinosaurs, but all are reptiles, and all but the first were in some manner inspired by the first and theme-named in the original language, can they not all be considered related then? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| :::::::::I don't see why not, regardless of any apparent current story shenanigans. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:15, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::::::::::You can consider Bahamutt, Dorrie and Plessie related, as they all seem to follow similar design guidelines, as even the Japanese names imply, but I think you should add somewhere (maybe the main pages of those three?) why they are considered related, if the reason is not already stated, so there's no confusion.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:04, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| bahamutt is like the only Yoshi look-alike. IMO plessie and dorrie look NOTHING like Yoshi [[User:Astro-Lanceur|New Super Luigi]]
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| :The Japanese names and '''head'''-shape on both of the others are Yoshi-like. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST)
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| == Merge all or certain color Yoshis into Yoshi (species) ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|12-1-2|merge}}
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| This proposal will hopefully set out to do what the above tried. As noted, these are all aesthetic differences for the most part. The only time most of these colors affected platform gameplay was in ''Yoshi's Story'', where it decided their favorite fruit. This is not notable enough to have a series of separate articles over something that can simply be given a quick mention in one article. The other time they affected platform gameplay was in ''Super Mario World'', where Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi had a different ability depending on the Koopa shell they had in their mouth, but again, this something that is nonexistent in later appearances. Then there is the Green Yoshi article, which just has [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|overlap]] with the character and species. The proposal has two options: one to include all Yoshi colors in the species article, and one to keep the Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi articles.
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| '''Proposer:''' {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
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| '''Deadline:''' March 24, 2019, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Merge all colors===
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per now and then.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Baby Luigi}} It's absolutely necessary to mention the spin-off games, specifically Mario Super Sluggers and Mario Tennis open where they have different stats too, and their different stats aren't any less significant than the one in Super Mario World. Aside from that, none of these differences are major enough to warrant their own article. We don't split off the colored Shy Guys in Mario Super Sluggers even though they have different stats. Same with Kritters, Piantas, Nokis, etc. and all of the Mario Baseball characters even have an individual role in the storyline. Red Koopas and Green Koopas have as much stat distinctions from each other in spinoffs and platformers as well and those aren't split. We could go on, but Yoshis deserve no exceptions and should get merged.
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| #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Baby Luigi.
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| #{{User|GrainedCargo192}} Per all.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Even with stat differences and gameplay differences in ''Super Mario World'', it would be consistent with how we handle other color variants on the wiki to merge them. Per Baby Luigi.
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| #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I have been repeatedly calling these colored Yoshi pages into question and was going to bring up discussion about their legitimacy, and I still don't think minute differences justify separate pages. All relevant art goes into an appropriately organized gallery and we'll be good especially when the recolors these days just frequently reuse art.
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| #{{User|MarioManiac1981}} Some of the Yoshi articles are rather short (like [[Black Yoshi]], [[White Yoshi]], and [[Brown Yoshi]]), while many other appearances are simply cosmetic differences. If red and green Koopa Troopas aren't worthy of warranting separate articles, then why should these dinos receive special treatment? Per all.
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| #{{User|bwburke94}} Per all above.
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| #{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Tails777}} While I do enjoy each color having its own article, I do see all the sense in merging and it is the better course of action.
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| ===Merge all except three ''Super Mario World'' colors===
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} It should be that or nothing.
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| <s>#{{User|Waluigi Time}} At the very least, those three do have some gameplay differences.</s>
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| <s>#{{User|Sdman213}} per Waluigi.</s>
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| ===Leave alone===
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Disagree. I said that i didn't want the rest to be merged. Every Yoshi deserves its own aricle!
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| #{{User|Alternis}} For FanOfYoshi
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| ===Comments===
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| Note that I was initially going to hold off on this proposal until the release of ''Super Mario Maker 2'' given a red Yoshi appears in the trailer; however, since I got support [[Talk:Green Yoshi#Merge Green Yoshi with Yoshi or Yoshi .28species.29|here]], I'm going ahead. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:32, 10 March 2019 (EDT)
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| FanOfYoshi: You might think every Yoshi "deserves its own aricle", but that's inconsistent with how we usually do things as we generally discourage species color variants. The Toad colors have only gotten their own articles due to having a few notable appearances like the Toad Brigade, not for the sake of being a different color. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:46, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
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| :It is when it is enemies. Look at [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18#Split the colored enemies|this]] proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:47, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
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| ::That's why I specifically brought up the Toad colors. Look carefully and you'll find that unlike the Yoshi colors, they are not about general appearances of each color. This is because that is information that can easily exist in the species article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:59, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
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| :::I don't even agree with myself in that proposal anymore lmao {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:48, March 11, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::<s>I again direct you to ambiguous cases (particularly with early inconsistent colors brought about by palette limitations (such as gray and green in SMB1 and SMB2) and just being unable to see the damn Troopa's carapace occasionally), not to mention how Shy Guy colors were changed between SMB2 and its remake, then made utterly meaningless-but-plentiful in the ''Yoshi'' games.</s> Sorry, misinterpreted your vague statement here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:29, March 11, 2019 (EDT)
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| @Waluigi Time: but the other colored yoshis do have gameplay differences too....? yoshis have different classifications in mario tennis open, different stats in mario super sluggers, and have different fruit preferences in yoshi's story. how is super mario world's stat distinctions any more significant than being a power-based yoshi or a tricky-based yoshi in the mario tennis games? people who vote the second option is going to result in a major inconsistency that we should strive to avoid. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:47, March 11, 2019 (EDT)
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| :I see your point when you put it that way. I didn't even take into account the stat differences in sports games, but felt the SMW abilities were important enough for a possible split. But now that I think about it, having an entire Yoshi color with its own page because it had a special ability in one game is silly and inconsistent. It's also basically in the same boat as the Birdo colors from SMB2 and their special abilities, which we don't split. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:35, March 11, 2019 (EDT)
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| Question: After this, can we move on to trying to merge the generic shell colors? If the clearly-distinct banana and banana peel are consistently kept merged, there's no reason for these far more similar subjects to be split instead. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 08:08, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
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| :You can. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:13, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::What colored shells are you thinking about? {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:09, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::Green, red, blue, and yellow. I'd leave out black (as it's never appeared being worn by a Troopa and is very specific to the MKAGP series) and probably gold (as it has especially distinct properties when it appears). I would also leave out the wearable powerup version of the Blue Shell, and potentially split the ''Strikers'' version to its own article. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:13, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::Personally, I'd leave the attribute-related stuff alone and just merge their generic instances. So that means leave the Super Mario World, the Mario Kart, the Mario Strikers, the Mario Baseball, the Mario Tennis, the power-up stuff alone and keep generic instances of the name in one paragraph in the opening of their respective articles while we merge the generic instances to the Koopa Shell article. I strongly doubt the koopa shells in the titles where they are generic outside of the blue ones even have official names like "Red Shell" to begin with. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:24, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| == Regarding the above ==
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| So apparently, there was an option to leave out the Super Mario World Yoshis due to being sufficiently unique. I'd rather have waited until Super Mario Maker 2, something new comes if we should have left the four Super Mario World colors. That says, there should be new information popping up. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:47, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
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| :They're not any more unique than other colored Yoshis being in different type categories and QR codes in Mario Tennis Open. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:38, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
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| ==Turtle==
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| :Yoshi is a turtle. https://nintendoeverything.com/yoshis-crafted-world-devs-on-the-art-style-kindergarten-inspiration-flip-side-gimmick-more [[User:Yoshiturtle|Yoshiturtle]] ([[User talk:Yoshiturtle|talk]]) 00:02, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::Well, Yoshis were originally meant to be a type of Koopa. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 00:22, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::Yoshi's species specification has been extremely variable over the years, this is hardly groundbreaking news. The 25th anniversary booklet interview said that the saddle was "originally meant to be" a shell because he was "going to be a type of Koopa," indicating he's not intended to be one by the final product. That beak-mouthed early-tile screenshot appearance likely is related to that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::To elaborate more on the subject (you can read a more detailed resumé [[Yoshi#Nature of the species|here]]), the ''dragon'' and ''dinosaur'' bits used to define Yoshi were indeed in official material beside that signature in ''Super Mario World''. ''Dragon'' was used in the manual of ''Super Mario World'' (and in the [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/data/software/manual/manual_PAUJ_00.pdf manual] and Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Advance 2'', too!), while ''dinosaur'' was used in the Nintendo Official Guidebook. I wouldn't be surprised if Tezuka always wanted Yoshi to be a turtle, though. If at the beginning there was rather the consensus on Yoshi being a dragon or a dinosaur (after all, ''Super Mario World'' is set in [[Dinosaur Land]]), he may have been introduced as that because of this reason. Then, as the franchise developed and the ''Turtle Tribe'' started having a great veariety of species in it, they decided that the idea of Yoshi being a member of it (that's what the Japanese 25th Anniversary booklet says, from what I could find) made sense.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 07:25, May 2, 2019 (EDT)
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| == Split the Super Mario-Kun ones from this article? ==
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| Should we split the Super Mario-Kun ones for being more unique than the normal ones? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:45, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| : If they are individual characters like [[Boshi]], then yes. [[User:B700465189a9|B700465189a9]] ([[User talk:B700465189a9|talk]]) 02:21, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::They are specifically from the [[Team Chibi Yoshis]] --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:28, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::Since the group already has an article, it must be seen if something worthwhile can be added in the individual pages, or if everything about them can just be written in the main page.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:03, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::But they're all separate characters. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:15, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::And most of us probably know less about them than the Fearsome 5. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:20, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::It's not about them not being separate characters, since they clearly are, it's just about having enough material for each of them so we don't end with six stubs or six articles that basically say the same as the team page. If you have both Super Mario-Kun volumes and manage to do so, you can go on and create the pages, but if we don't have enough material, covering them in that page for the team would be a better way to go.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:38, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::I'm not very fluent in Japanese, there are a few words that i understand (besides loanwords), and i can also read kanas, and i don't own them either. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 00:50, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::::Strongly opposed, using the Fearsome 5 as precedent. The group article is enough. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:49, August 14, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::::Agreed, I don't see why every single minor member of an even more minor group has to have their own page. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 12:52, August 14, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::Actually, no, it's not extraneous, unlike the Fearsome 5, they're more unique, and have the main article template. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:00, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::Really, splitting everything under the sun isn't a good idea in the first place, in my opinion. These ''are not notable enough'' for their own articles, much like the Nokis. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 08:58, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::The question is always the same: do we have more material than what is already written? Because making a page to say what can be said in a paragraph of the page about the team as a whole doesn't help the readers, it only makes getting information about them more complicated. The templates can be safely removed if we don't need the individual pages.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:45, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::I said this before, while we don't have the material to make full pages now, we shouldn't not in the future because we didn't have them in the past: so while the pages should not be made now once we get their material we should decide whether or not they need pages, which they may. We really can't say if they are not notable enough if we don't have full translations of the magna, because they actually may be notable, and saying that they are not now is speculation. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 15:15, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| == Full name ==
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| When I looked at a YouTube video, it's full name is T. Yoshisaur Munchakoopas. Do you these other reliable sources would be good?:
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| http://www.thekohlrabi.com/t-t-yoshisaur-munchakoopas/
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| https://www.polygon.com/2014/8/5/5972989/yoshis-real-name-revealed-super-mario-world
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| Thanks. [[User:Benjaminkirsc|Benjaminkirsc]] ([[User talk:Benjaminkirsc|talk]]) 09:17, June 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :It is currently trivia in the character article since the internal reference it came from was leaked and was never used elsewhere. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:45, June 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| == Gender ==
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| Should the Yoshis be considered as a male-only species seeing how there are apparently no female Yoshis as far as we know? Almost every species in this series seems to have more than one gender while the Yoshis are seen to be mostly using male pronouns. {{unsigned|98.193.95.185}}
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| :One of the closest cases we've ever had to a female Yoshi was [https://mobile.twitter.com/blacktangent/status/1008666703914401792/photo/1 in one of those SNES era guides that also featured flying Rexes] - not exactly the most on-model book. In general, while in the GCN era Yoshis were seen as masculine with Birdos being their "feminine" counterparts, nowadays it's mostly the Super Smash Bros. games that reiterate Yoshis being male. Appearance-wise, it's has been a long time since we last saw a Yoshi with a different from standard appearance - in the recent Yoshi platform games it's the Yoshis as a whole who look different, not just a single one - so I guess we just stick with this "all Yoshis are male" convention. Biologically they are all genderless so it's not something to read too much into it, as not even Nintendo stresses the masculinity of the Yoshis any more in the non-Super Smash Bros. Mario games.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 07:17, April 11, 2021 (EDT)
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| It's pretty much safe to say that yoshi is a male-only species with Birdo being its female. {{unsigned|108.93.144.117}}
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| Outside of the character Yoshi (who is usually referred to as male), the Yoshi species are genderless as Mister Wu had said. {{unsigned|24.12.65.0}}
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| == Each colored Yoshi has its own name? ==
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| I just stumbled across [https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/10/random-yoshi-from-the-super-mario-series-apparently-have-different-names this article] stating that the various colored Yoshis from ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' are actually named in official German Club Nintendo material. Is this worth mentioning, possibly in the section relating to the colors of Yoshis or even on that game's article under characters? {{User:HappyToad/sig}} 01:22, October 13, 2021 (EDT)
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| :They were exclusively used in German material, and they were named after the Nintendo of Europe employees. Tracking down whether the current colored Yoshis are the same ones of back then and further splitting hairs (and pages) when they aren't is a bit excessive, especially now that Nintendo in Japan has pretty much confirmed that they have no problem in calling even the differently colored ones just ''Yoshi'', if it's simpler for them (and they started doing so with ''Yoshi (Kangaroo)''). It's for sure a very fun piece of trivia, I guess you can add it in the ''Trivia'' section.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:43, October 13, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::Thanks, even though I'd prefer not to make a [[MarioWiki:Trivia|Trivia]] section if possible, I think you're probably right about it being too trivial to embed into the article, so I'll just make it and put the info there. {{User:HappyToad/sig}} 17:06, October 13, 2021 (EDT)
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| == Changing the Main Page Artwork ==
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| Hello, i wonder if i can change the main page artwork from the Yoshi's New Island one to the Yoshi's Crafted World one? I'm asking it here since i don't want to edit the main page artwork without permission, thanks! [[User:Shadic 34|Shadic 34]] ([[User talk:Shadic 34|talk]]) 15:02, January 20, 2022 (EST)
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| I've done it for now. {{User:WildWario/sig}} 21:35, January 20, 2022 (EST)
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| :I feel like using the ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' artwork could violate our [[:Template:Character infobox|policy]] of avoiding using artwork that is "specialized" for a certain game in infoboxes, since it depicts the Yoshis having a felt-like appearance to fit the game's "crafts" theme.--{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 21:47, January 20, 2022 (EST)
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| :I understand that, so should I change it back to the ''Yoshi's New Island'' one? {{User:WildWario/sig}} 21:54, January 20, 2022 (EST)
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| ::It should be changed back for now, but it might make sense to also discuss whether or not a more general image exists, as even that one might be considered specialized due to it depicting Baby Mario. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 22:04, January 20, 2022 (EST)
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| :::I do think Crafted World Yoshis are too derivative to be the best infobox picture. As for the current one, it's not 100% ideal, but Baby Mario does have a fairly strong presence in the Yoshi's Island games, so I don't think it's a big deal that he's there. He's not such a dominating presence compared to this example [[:File:SNW app Mario Yoshis.png|of group art where adult Mario does appear too prevalent]]. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 22:10, January 20, 2022 (EST)
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| == Discussing Re-splitting Yoshi Colors ==
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| I initially started a similar discussion on ''Mario Kart Tour's'' talk page, but I feel that game's handle on alternates is a topic that needs further time in the oven. Kinda continuing from my original proposal idea, I feel the Yoshi species should be re-split back into their original color based articles. A main reason being that many games that feature colored Yoshies feature them with several differences from Yoshi himself, strong examples being ''Mario Tennis Open'' and ''Mario Kart Tour'' while some lesser examples include ''Yoshi Story'' and ''Mario Super Sluggers''. When compared to other species with colored members, such as Toads, Shy Guys and Birdos, I feel Yoshies have consistently had appearances with various differences between colors. Sure, the ''Yoshi series'' mainly features them as mere pallet swaps, same can be said when the colored Yoshies act as alternate skins for Yoshi himself (''Mario Hoops 3-on-3'', ''Mario Sports Mix'', ''Mario Kart 8'' etc), I still think there is enough individual information for most of the prominent colors. I wouldn't compare this to something like [[Red Spike Top]]s, since while I did oppose the merge, I can understand why since they have no differing statistics between Spike Tops. But many colored Yoshies have varying differences: different classification types in ''Mario Tennis Open'', different special items and even rarities in ''Mario Kart Tour'', different favorite fruits and Shy Guy preferences in ''Yoshi Story'', I feel there's still enough information on each color that could suffice for their own articles, they just need to be worked on. But I want to discuss it before I try making a proposal about it, because I know there was the above proposal for merging them (one that I kinda regret agreeing with). {{User:Tails777/sig}}21:47, February 14, 2022 (EST)
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| :Definitely. Also, another downside of the merge is that if anyone wants to find out which games specific Yoshi colors appeared in... well, good luck with that. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 21:50, February 14, 2022 (EST)
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| :I'd be fine with a split for the reasons you gave. [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 22:31, February 14, 2022 (EST)
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| ::Problem is there's some subjectivity regarding which colors are the same; for instance, certain "white" Yoshis look closer to "light blue" Yoshis to some people, and then there's the brown vs orange deal and the occasional appearance in a limited-palette game like one of the G&WG games where it's not really a solid indicator of the "intended" color anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:01, February 15, 2022 (EST)
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| :::That's indeed an issue: nowadays there is more consistency around the 10 main Yoshi colors (red, orange, yellow, green, light blue, blue, purple, pink, white and black), but in the past there wasn't much consistency, the main issue clearly being that of brown Yoshi who even appeared orange in official artwork. To this, we can add how color attribution itself can have some unexpected pitfalls, with Yoshi (kangaroo) being a clear example. I think the first thing we'll need to check is how many pitfalls in the color attribution we have, if we can have most of the pages devoid of arbitrary, debatable or contradictory attributions, I guess we can consider a split.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:25, February 15, 2022 (EST)
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| ::::'''@Doc con Schmeltwick:''' That is a good point, though in the case of White Yoshies occasionally looking Light Blue to some people, we need to consider what the game is viewing it as, less what other people see it as. I know many people see colors differently, especially if one could be color blind, but if a game specifically names a White Yoshi that kinda looks like a light-blue shade as "White Yoshi", then that's what we should treat it as. I think a good example is the Yoshi level for Artist on the Court, where the White Yoshi does have a more light-blueish appearance, but it's clearly intended to be a White Yoshi, since a Light Blue Yoshi is also present on the same image. But I will agree that Brown Yoshi does create some uncertainties, especially with ''Game & Watch Gallery 3'' featuring a Yoshi that looks to be orange, but nothing other than it's base looks seems to really confirm what color it's supposed to be.
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| ::::'''@Mister Wu:''' I don't think Yoshi (Kangaroo) is much of an issue, as while he is yellow in color, there are signs that indicate that he's not a Yellow Yoshi, just normal Yoshi colored yellow, which I feel is already explained perfectly fine on the main Yoshi article. Something like that could also be mentioned on a Yellow Yoshi article, maybe in a Trivia section or the ''Mario Kart Tour'' section if Yellow Yoshi inevitably gets into the game. Concerning Brown Yoshi's artwork comparisons, I feel we should go with what is shown in-game; yes, Brown Yoshi looks to be more orange in the group artwork for the [[Super Mario Advance 3: Yoshi's Island|GBA port of Yoshi's Island]], but the in-game sprite shows it to be Brown as a whole. Additionally, Brown Yoshi does have artwork that clearly shows it to be brown. {{User:Tails777/sig}}13:30, February 15, 2022 (EST)
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| :::::Could someone please explain what would be gained by splitting them, and why that wouldn't apply to stuff like "Toads, Shy Guys and Birdos" (especially Shy Guys)? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, February 15, 2022 (EST)
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| ::::::There's still plenty of information that could be included in each individual article, a good example that Waluigi Time gave was which games each individual colors appear in. On top of that, I feel it would be a more organized way of separating that information, especially with games like ''Super Mario World'', ''Yoshi Story'' and ''Mario Kart Tour''. I wouldn't mind extending this to topics such as Shy Guys, Toads and Birdos, with Shy Guys potentially having the best reasons to follow in suit to splitting Yoshies, but the reason why Yoshies are a better start is because of their consistent differences across multiple titles. Even beyond the simple stat changes most colored characters saw in the ''Mario Baseball series'', Yoshies have a few differences in ''Yoshi Story'', ''Mario Kart Tour'' and ''Mario Tennis Open''. Shy Guys and Birdos do have colored alternates in ''Tour'' as well, but Birdo complicates things by having those colored alts being named "Birdo (Color)" rather than how Yoshies and Shy Guys do it (Being "Color" Yoshi/Shy Guy). Toads are also in the same boat because on more occasions are not, they don't have much differing them when colored Toads are present, with their most common role being simple townspeople and in ''Mario Kart Tour'', standard colored Toads aren't yet included, instead being Pit Crew Toads (though given their naming, I feel they could possibly follow the same path as the others). And while ''Mario Kart Tour's'' various karts and gliders are a different topic, a big reason I bring all this up is because I felt like was inconsistent to allow pallet swapped karts to have their own articles, despite being on one game and featuring the same differences as colored Yoshies, despite those Yoshies having even more differences across multiple games and not having their own articles. {{User:Tails777/sig}}18:44, February 15, 2022 (EST)
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| :::::::I mentioned Yoshi (Kangaroo) for a very specific reason: if there is no agreement that a yellow-colored Yoshi with the Yellow Yoshi emblem and the original shoes, worn by all the Yoshi colors in ''Super Mario World'', is a yellow Yoshi, mainly because of a name [[Talk:Yoshi#What is happening with Yoshi (Kangaroo)|that was clarified being a species identifier used also for colored variants]], then splitting the Yoshi colors without well defined criteria is a recipe for a disaster. The inconsistencies in the appearance of the colored Yoshis are abundant and are way more ambiguous. If in the newly created pages you want to cover only the cases in which the color is explicitly stated I'm not against this idea, if you want to go beyond those I'm not confident we'll be able to avoid plenty of speculation and conflicting edits.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:57, February 15, 2022 (EST)
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| ::::::::Honestly, that's fine, I'm not against keeping it to times where it's explicitly stated to be that color. If anything, that would make things easier, would it not? I do think it might be best to try and create an idea for what the articles could look like before making any sort of decision, because the idea of splitting palette swaps still has some decent arguments against it. But the main thing I look at are appearances where being a different color actually had a noticeable difference in gameplay. I also did read your bit on Yoshi's talk page and yeah, that really does complicate things. If that's the case, I'm not against keeping colored Yoshi articles to times they are explicitly stated to be that color. {{User:Tails777/sig}}22:11, February 15, 2022 (EST)
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| :::::::::Maybe you could try sandboxing? With a rough draft of how the pages could look we can better see how the pages would turn out. Maybe start with the original three color variants - blue, yellow and red, who had gameplay implications since the very beginning. The first one could be Red Yoshi, who is also a driver in ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 03:25, February 16, 2022 (EST)
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| ::::::::::I've gotten started on that. It'll be a work of progress, but I think I've got a good start on it. {{User:Tails777/sig}}12:34, February 16, 2022 (EST)
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| :::::::::::Personally, I still feel those gameplay differences aren't major enough to constitute a split, since they practically apply to all color variations of the characters, namely Toad, Shy Guy, etc, and I don't think it's more "consistently" manner either. The deal with the color Yoshis are is that they simply had more appearances than the other colored species, and even something such as the Blue Toads in Super Mario Run have a distinct gameplay feature to them, even if it is something as minor as "Blue Yoshis are favorable with Blue Toads" (this doesn't get into the Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon Toads, who all have unique fears about them which is parallel to the favorite fruit Yoshi stuff from Yoshi's Story). I even call into question the Blue and Yellow Toad character articles from New Super Mario Bros. Wii since as far as gameplay is concerned, they're little more than playable character skins for a "Toad" character and they're as generically named as the other Yoshis (it doesn't help both their character articles are padded with "personality" sections but I digress). In addition, enemies such as the colored Koopa Troopas, Snifits, Cheep Cheeps also technically exhibit different behaviors in their platforming titles which are the same quality as small stat changes in the Mario spin-off titles, relevant to the context of the game they appear, and I don't see anyone advocating for their splits. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:03, February 16, 2022 (EST)
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| ::::::::::::'''@Ray Trace:''' If the looks of separate articles feel like they're underwhelming or unnecessary, then what I may do is put more effort into sprucing up this article to include more information on potential differences between colors. I am in the middle of working on a draft for Red Yoshi and I will agree, many of the sections feel small. If the final draft still gives the feeling that a split is unnecessary, then plan be is to work hard on this article instead. {{User:Tails777/sig}}17:23, February 16, 2022 (EST)
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| Per Ray Trace on this one. I don't think I was around back when these were seperate articles so I wouldn't know how they were handled, but I think having it all on this page is better for management and organisation. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:26, February 16, 2022 (EST)
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| :I understand that and honestly, I might be close to the point where I wouldn't argue against sprucing this article up instead. But I still want to finish my draft and see if it could pass for a reasonable article. Part of me thinks that keeping information for all these colors in one article could still feel messy or otherwise bloated with so much information, but that's also something I won't know until I try to fit it all in there. I also agree with Mister Wu in creating the colored articles and using them to show information on games that specifically acknowledge each colored Yoshi individually rather than treating them as a collective species, like most games do for Toads. Otherwise, I can see the point of keeping them merged, even if I still don't fully agree with it. {{User:Tails777/sig}}20:16, February 16, 2022 (EST)
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| == Potential to merge to Yoshi ==
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| I know I'm liable to catch a lot of flak for this, but following the successful merges of Birdo and Boom Boom, I think it's time to examine whether this has any business being its own article. A grand majority of the time, "Yoshi" treated as someone's name is assigned arbitrarily to any nonspecific member regardless of things like color; this can be seen ''at least'' as far back as the ''Yoshi's Story'' manual and occurs even more often today (ie with Kangaroo Yoshi); another good example is with ''Super Mario Sunshine'' ("Yoshi's back, so saddle up!"), where he changes color and dissolves in water. Furthermore, it has been ''explicitly'' stated that "Yoshi" is not a singular individual, with it instead referring to any given one unless stated otherwise. That's not even getting into the fact that in the ''Yoshi'' franchise itself, the green-colored one rarely has any more prominence than any of the other colors, leaving plenty of redundancy between the pages. Also let's not forget how ''Mario Kart 8'' handles his color alts the same way as Shy Guys. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo has no interest in distinguishing these subjects (and in fact, seems to encourage them to be synonymous), so we really should reflect that. The only real example of a game I can think of having a specific "main" Yoshi alongside "minor" Yoshis is ''Super Mario RPG'', where all have such a minor role anyways a single page would also still probably be simpler. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Funny, I was actually just thinking about this myself. Same can really be said about Toad, since both are just kinda an umbrella term for the overall species. Basically "All Yoshis/Toads are named Yoshi/Toad". But I'm still kinda on the fence about it, since I don't really agree with the merging of Birdo/Birdo's species. So I'm not entirely sure. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:45, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::No, Yoshi is clearly also a species. What is the Yoshi Stampede is the SSB Melee intro (and SSBU Final Smash) then? I actually typed up a lead section on [https://thenintendowiki.org/wiki/Yoshi_(character) Nintendo Wiki] (rest needs to be rewritten still) that tries to address this, specifically "Yoshi is a notable and distinguished member of the species of the same name, but does not necessarily represent the same character, similar to Toad and his species." I think it's not a good idea to merge. [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 00:16, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::I'm not saying there's not a species, I'm saying there's not a distinction. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:21, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::Ohhh good point. Perhaps seeing as Yoshi and/or its species appear in so many titles, it would be hard to make out when it's about the species and when it's about the character. [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 00:30, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::As I mentioned, "Yoshi" is already not a specific character, and has been used -as a name- in reference to ones of different colors in the same game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:32, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| The character "Yoshi" is often referred to as the green Yoshi, and games like Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario World, Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle and even Paper Mario: Color Splash make this clear enough. This isn't quite on the same scale as Boom Boom and Birdo. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 06:47, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Actually, I have no idea why ''Paper Mario: Color Splash'' is mentioned in this article. It's a possible appearance at best. That aside, this was brought up a few times on the [[Talk:Yoshi|other]] talk page. I got a few amusing remarks regarding ''Super Mario World''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:55, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| I think I would ultimately oppose this idea. While Nintendo does say "All Yoshies are named Yoshi", that doesn't necessarily mean we should merge them, that's just saying all Yoshies have the same name and that's not exactly treating them as the same. That would be like saying all Matts on the planet are the same. They also, despite that, still do seem to individualize Yoshi himself in various bios, using more specific pronouns instead of just referring to him as "they/them". And while the Yoshi name could just interchange with all Yoshies, there are only really three times where Yoshi himself has been interchanged with the other colors, being ''Super Mario Sunshine'', ''Mario Power Tennis'' and ''Mario Kart Tour'', compared to the numerous other times Yoshi can and has appeared alongside other Yoshies. Additionally, there are still several appearances the Yoshi species has as NPCs that don't include the specific Yoshi, including ''Paper Mario'', ''Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door'' and pretty much the entire ''Mario & Luigi series''. As for ''Mario Kart 8'', well yes all those colors are palette swaps for Yoshi, they still not just referred to as "Yoshi", they're still referred to as "Red Yoshi", "Blue Yoshi" etc. Had they all just shared the same, generic name, that'd be different, but they don't and still have individual names. In the end, I think there's enough of a fine line between the Yoshi individual and the multitude of other Yoshies for them to remain split. {{User:Tails777/sig}}08:59, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :How do we tell ''the'' Yoshi from other Yoshis named "Yoshi" though? Several sections, like the ''Color Splash'' one, already just flat-out assume that any singular green Yoshi is ''the'' Yoshi regardless. Yoshi's profiles individualize him? So do [[List of Boom Boom profiles and statistics|Boom Boom's]], and that didn't stop us from merging him. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 13:26, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::A grand majority of his bios start with something along the lines of "He's been carrying Mario on his back for years" or that "he's Mario's trusty adventuring partner", which is not something you can say about a character who swaps out with any random member of his species. And I still stand by the individualization made by even modern bios (such as ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' specifically stating there's "Yoshi" and there's "all the other Yoshis" and ''Mario Party 10'' specifically stating that Yoshi has attended "every party to date", which proves it's the same Yoshi), which I think is more than enough. So whereas Boom Boom's question of being an individual started with ''New Super Mario Bros. U'', Yoshi still has 20 years of consistent proof that he's an individual in his species. Just because things are similar, we don't always need to conclude that they should just be merged, otherwise we may as well just [[Climbing Koopa|merge]] [[Shady Koopa|every]] [[Dark Koopa|Koopa Troopa]] together. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
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| :::Then how is Yoshi "back" in ''Sunshine'' when for all intents and purposes that ''can't'' be the same Yoshi? Your proof is anything ''but'' consistent. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:12, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::In addition to the above, the whole "we might as well merge every Koopa Troopa" argument is pure apples-to-oranges mush; you're comparing clear enemy variants to ambiguous individualism between character and species. You might as well use the Birdo merge as an argument for doing that too. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 15:25, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::What's the chronology of Sunshine stating Yoshi is "back" and the "Yoshis/enemies are goop" explanation, though? I was under the impression that the goop clarification was made much later, which wouldn't mean that the Sunshine Yoshi outright can't be the Yoshi, just that he was originally intended to be, and it was retconned later. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:50, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::The color change and dissolving in water is already incompatible. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:47, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::From a canon standpoint, possibly, but we don't make continuity judgments, we just work with what we're given. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:15, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::::No, I remember it ("it" being the ''Sunshine'' manual IIRC) saying that it's specifically the Yoshis on Isle Delfino that hate water. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:28, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::::I have the SMS manual so I quickly went and checked, [https://imgur.com/a/DxD1aQa you're right!] The manual does specify the Yoshis on Isle Delfino. [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 18:21, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::::::Okay, so Super Mario Sunshine is one example of inconsistency between Yoshi himself and his species. That's one example holding up against multiple other examples drawing a fine line separating them. And I still stand by my point: even if Nintendo stated that "All Yoshis are named Yoshi", there are still a decent amount of modern bios that still draw that same fine line showcasing Yoshi as his own individual. And from my standpoint, the one time Nintendo was inconsistent doesn't hold enough weight here, especially since their inconsistent statement is something beyond our control. As per Waluigi Time, we can only work with what we have and we still have a lot more that properly suggests Yoshi is still an individual. {{User:Tails777/sig}}22:36, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::I already pointed out the ''Yoshi's Story'' manual and "Yoshi (kangaroo)" also being examples of my point. ''Story'' also murks things up by having hatchling Yoshis who have never even ''seen'' Mario be called "Mario's pet" by Baby Bowser, and his role in that game required knowing there's more than one anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:08, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::I've already stated ''Mario Kart Tour'' to be one of the three times Yoshi has been interchanged with other colors and I overall feel it's still supposed to be Yoshi himself, as both his Kangaroo and Gold Shell alternates still follow the same naming rule every other alternate follows, further suggesting that, while yellow, it's still the Yoshi individual and not a standard Yellow Yoshi named Yoshi, which I feel can be further proven if a Yellow Yoshi appears as a separate racer in the future (as it's not Yellow Yoshi (Kangaroo), it's still Yoshi (Kangaroo)). Overall I'm going to have to respectfully agree to disagree. From my point of view, there is still way more evidence that suggests Yoshi to be an individual over times he's been throw in with the overall Yoshi species. As for ''Yoshi Story'', well we don't even have such section on Yoshi's article and it's more shown that they are Baby Yoshis over Yoshi himself, though I will agree that Baby Bowser calling them "Mario's Pet" does showcase a second (or I guess first, since YS came before SMS) inconsistency with Yoshi vs. his species. Regardless, I still see more evidence supporting supporting the individuality and I'm going to choose to stick to that. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:42, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| ==Light Purple Yoshi and Gray Yoshi==
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| The recent game in the Mario Strikers series has two new Yoshi colors, Mind if anyone add them? --[[Special:Contributions/64.33.135.109|64.33.135.109]] 14:23, June 11, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Isn't Gray Yoshi just white? Yoshis on the two purple teams look blue. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:39, June 11, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::It [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UscqJTuLZdA appears so] in both cases, with Yoshi also having his usual green color for the chartreuse team. --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 16:11, June 11, 2022 (EDT)
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| == Merging this with [[Yoshi]] ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|vetoed|Irrespective of the validity of the suggestion, plagiarizing other contributor's writing is ''not'' acceptable.}}When Nintendo includes Yoshi in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colors, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially, I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Yoshi is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario World information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Yoshis are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Yoshi is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article. Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Birdo, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': October 14, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{User|Teh Other}} Per proposal
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - (Bit too early for this, son) Per everything I said above, it's abundantly clear Nintendo doesn't see ''any'' distinction and never really has. It is our role to reflect that, not fanwank together a pick-and-choose "biography" of incompatible appearances. And to quote myself below: in '''many''' sources, such as the [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_N64/Manual/formated/Yoshi-s_Story_-_1998_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Yoshi's Story'' manual] and [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_GameCube/Manual/formated/Super_Mario_Sunshine_-_2002_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Super Mario Sunshine'' manual], ''every'' Yoshi is simply called "Yoshi." Not "''a'' Yoshi" or "''the'' Yoshi," just "Yoshi," or "Yoshis" in plural. And furthermore, both ''Story'' and ''Sunshine'' are clearly different from the so-called "main" Yoshi in their respective predecessors, with the former just hatching and the latter having the water weakness stated to be a Delfino-only thing. So, if ''every'' Yoshi is "Yoshi," '''''who is the character and how is he distinct?''''' From the physically, functionally, and nomenclaturally identical others?
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Strong oppose, per my reasons above and below.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Tails777.
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| #{{User|Swallow}} There is a lot to say about the character throughout games that wouldn't be fitting on the species page, and it is often clear when it's supposed to be the character Yoshi.
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| #{{User|Dwhitney}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Arend}} Per all; there are still ''many'' appearances that distinct Yoshi as its own character (he even has [[Yoshi's House|his own house]], and I think the appearances of his house indicates that the games it's featured in also feature THE Yoshi as well). If we go through with this, we might as well do the same with ALL species-based characters like Toad or Kamek.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Like I made clear in my [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|original proposal]] (which I'm not sure whether to be flattered or annoyed that you copy-pasted word for word), I don't think Birdo and Yoshi are completely identical situations as while Birdo has never really been distinguished from others of her kind, Yoshi has, and statements like "The rest of the history section is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi" don't really make sense.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{User|KingGeoshiKoopshi64}} Per all.
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| #{{User|RealStuffMister}} While its never mentioned that the Yoshi in games like Mario Party, Mario Kart, etc. is the same specific yoshi or not, they're always treated as if they're same one throughout. For example, in Mario Party Superstars it lists Yoshi, as one character and not as a species, appearing in all previous mario party games, implying its the same character. In spin-offs like the mario cartoons, Yoshi is treated as a single, individual character. The pages are also different in what they talk about, the Yoshi (species) page discusses the species in general, the games they appear in and whatnot, while the Yoshi page is about Yoshi as a playable character, or, more importantly, a separate, distinguished character. Also, there are the points raised by Arend too, like him having his own house and stuff. to make a whole long story short: per all.
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| #{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Spectrogram}} per all.
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| #{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all. While Nintendo doesn't bother to keep a distinction between Yoshi and the rest of his species most of the time, by the same logic we'd have to merge Toad with his species as well.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. I should've opposed the other ones when I had the chance.
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| #{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all. Those other character/species pages shouldn't be/have been merged either.
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| ===Comments===
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| Well this was originally going to be my vote, but I think I wrote an essay instead. But there are still way more examples of when Yoshi was treated as an individual from his species. For starters, his ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' specifically states "There's Yoshi and there's all the other Yoshis", a clear indication that there is indeed the individual character. Second, Yoshi himself more often than not appears as the ''sole Green Yoshi'' in several games; if you notice in many spin-off games, Yoshi appears playable, then the crowd usually features other Yoshis, ''none of which are green''. In fact, ''Mario Strikers: Battle League'' is the only game to date that I can recall that has Green Yoshis in the crowd as well as the playable Yoshi himself. While it's true that a few games do interchange him with his species (''Mario Power Tennis'', ''Mario Strikers: Battle League'' and the Kangaroo and Gold Egg variants in ''Mario Kart Tour''), there are still many examples of where Yoshi is treated as an individual. Third, ''less information than the Birdo article''? I really don't think that's a fair comparison, considering Birdo in ''Mario Kart Tour'' follows the same naming style as other characterized variants (Birdo (Yellow) as opposed to Yellow Birdo) signifying less of a species and more of the actual character as a different color, whereas Yoshi and Toad both acknowledge color palettes as different from their originals (Red Yoshi as opposed to Yoshi (Red)). Yoshi has had ''way'' more consistent appearances as a standalone character when compared to that of generic enemies such as Koopa Troopa or Shy Guy, who to this day are still not confirmed to be individual characters participating in several ''Mario Kart'' titles, where Yoshi was clearly stated in his ''Mario Party 10'' bio to have attended every party to date. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
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| :Where does that line show up in ''Yoshi's Crafted World''? If anything, you would think the Yoshi platformers have indicated the opposite, considering Kamek/Bowser will refer to any Yoshi color as "Yoshi" (even "Mario's little pet" to any newborn in ''Yoshi's Story''). Also, I'm not sure how ''Mario Kart Tour'' is supposed to prove anything one way or another, considering Shy Guy has the same name format. I think Yoshi and Shy Guy were going for how they were previously established, like you'd see in ''Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition'' or ''Paper Mario: Color Splash''. I do disagree with the "lone generic x must be THE x!" approach which Yoshi has quite a number of (see ''Color Splash'' again), and think at best the character article can follow times that Yoshi has had familiarity with Mario like in ''Super Mario RPG'' or ''Super Mario 64'', not when it's clearly a different Yoshi like ''Super Mario Sunshine'' or several ''Yoshi'' games like ''New Island''. And @Arend: [[Yoshi's Egg]] has the same format (and so does [[Toad House|Toad's House]], sometimes); are the eggs only laid by one Yoshi? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:44, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::No, but what I am saying is that in every appearance, Yoshi's House is owned by one particular Yoshi, which is implied to be the same one every time. Not to mention that in all mainline appearances (World, Odyssey, Galaxy 2), the house is vacant and Yoshi has always left a message behind that ''he'' is currently away. I can understand you would think these houses are owned by different Yoshis, considering their differing locations and appearances, but the implication that it's all the same Yoshi is still there.<br>Besides, Yoshi's Eggs are sometimes referred to as simply Yoshi Eggs, and Toad's Houses are more commonly referred to as Toad Houses, but Yoshi's House has ''never'' ben referred to as "a Yoshi House", so I don't think it's supposed to be the same kind of deal as those two. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:15, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::Yoshi's House hasn't had enough named appearances to have as many translation quibbles, but if it did, it probably would. Multiple houses clearly styled after the original ''Super Mario World'' one have appeared in the ''Yoshi's Island'' games, where each Yoshi waits for Baby Mario to pass the Goal Ring, and ''Super Mario RPG'' and ''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'', where they're common structures on Yo'ster Isle / Yoshi's Island. Also, I'm not sure how being a householder necessarily implies it to be the same Yoshi, considering he signs his name differently in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' (I don't remember how he signs it in ''Super Mario Odyssey''). Actually, come to think of it, doesn't having any non-green Yoshi change the Message Block in ''Super Mario World''? (All Yoshis are referred to as "he" anyway, so I'm not sure what the italics mean.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:38, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::@LinkTheLefty: [https://yoshiscraftedworld.nintendo.com/characters/ Right on the official site], Yoshi's bio (which we do have on his [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Yoshi's Crafted World|statistics article too]]) specifically says "There’s Yoshi, and then there are all the other Yoshis: red, pink, blue, yellow, and more.", which to me is still a viable source to prove Nintendo does still see Yoshi as an individual. And this is a 2020 game, so it's clear Nintendo does show some acknowledgement on Yoshi's status as a character in modern times. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
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| :::Just so you know, [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/switch/aea2a/pc/index.html that part is completely absent from the Japanese site], this is not even an isolated case, it's actually very interesting to see the parallels between Yoshi's bio [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/?lang=en in the English translation] of the Mario Portal and [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/?lang=ja the original Japanese bio], like in this case:
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| :::'''Japanese bio''': 緑のヨッシーのほかにも、赤・水色・ピンクなど色違いのヨッシーもいます。
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| :::''In addition to Green Yoshi, there are also Yoshi of different colors such as red, light blue and pink'' (Note how I didn't pluralize ''Yoshi'' because the term is always the same in Japanese whenever is singular or plural, so ''Green Yoshi'' could actually be ''Green Yoshis'')
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| :::'''English bio''': He is green, but others of his kind may be other colors such as red, blue, pink, and yellow.
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| :::These two approaches toward what is supposed to be the same sentence reflect very well how the Western approach differs from the Japanese one, and also means that we'll find indeed even recent Western material that talks about Yoshi as a character - that English translation was added this year -, but this won't really reflect how Yoshi is approached by Nintendo in Japan.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 00:25, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::The English bios on Portal are actually straight from [https://mario.nintendo.com/characters/ the updated NOA Mario site bios], dating at least [https://web.archive.org/web/20210924030736/https://mario.nintendo.com/characters/ about a year back]. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 07:40, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::Sometimes I do wonder how much site writers coordinate with game localizers. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::An additional note I want to make, in '''many''' sources, such as the [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_N64/Manual/formated/Yoshi-s_Story_-_1998_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Yoshi's Story'' manual] and [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_GameCube/Manual/formated/Super_Mario_Sunshine_-_2002_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Super Mario Sunshine'' manual], ''every'' Yoshi is simply called "Yoshi." Not "''a'' Yoshi" or "''the'' Yoshi," just "Yoshi," or "Yoshis" in plural. And furthermore, both ''Story'' and ''Sunshine'' are clearly different from the so-called "main" Yoshi in their respective predecessors, with the former just hatching and the latter having the water weakness stated to be a Delfino-only thing. So, if ''every'' Yoshi is "Yoshi," '''''who is the character and how is he distinct?''''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:18, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::@Doc:A lack of distinction doesn't necessarily mean being an individual character is impossible, not when we have [[Ruddy Road Paint Guy|multiple]] [[Goomba (Super Paper Mario character)|minor]] [[Koopa (Mario Party DS)|NPCs]] who all look identical to their parent species, who get articles thanks to our [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs|Minor NPC policy]]. None of them have any distinction from their parent species. Ruddy Road Paint Guy doesn't fight any different than a normal Paint Guy, he doesn't look any different than a normal Paint Guy. The Goomba and Koopa don't have enough screen time to show they have any sort of distinct personality or visual traits that make them distinct from any other Goomba or Koopa, nor do they do anything super notable in their respective stories. Yoshi may not have any sort of difference from the rest of his species, but that doesn't mean he can't be an individual character. His ''Mario Party 10'' bio says ''"The green gobbler has attended every Mario Party to date, and Flutter Jumps back into the fun this time around."'', which clearly means that the Yoshi that has appeared in every ''Mario Party'' title before is the same Yoshi, something most other species members can't say for themselves, such as the Koopa Troopa in the ''Mario Kart series''. Confirming that "this" Yoshi has been in every ''Mario Party'' shows consistency towards his individuality. Same can be said for the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, as we know Sakurai has confirmed that Yoshi has appeared in all five games, pretty much saying the same thing; it's the same character. And while Snake's codec conversation doesn't share the same similarity, Pit's Palutena's Guidance has him saying "It's Yoshi!" rather than "It's '''a''' Yoshi!". Even if Smash is a multi series crossover and not always correct, it's information should still be relevant. Beyond that, multiple bios specifically use male pronouns to refer to him. If he wasn't an individual character, there likely wouldn't be such pronoun uses, instead opting to talk about the species as a whole and use words like "they". And even more so, multiple bios single out this Yoshi as a "friend to the Mario Bros.", which is again, something you likely wouldn't see if they were just referring to the species as a whole. It's clearly singling out a specific Yoshi that adventures with them often. Even if it's not always consistent, we shouldn't be ignoring these examples. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
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| :::::That ignores my point of "Yoshi" as a name being used as a general term. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 08:31, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::Well [[Bob-omb (Paper Mario: The Origami King)|Bob-omb from ''Origami King'']] insists that his name is Bob-omb, which is just the general term for the species. [[Goomba (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars character)|Goomba from SMRPG]] is just Goomba, the general term for the species. And even if they are intending on being merged, nearly every [[Mario Party Advance#NPCs|''Mario Party Advance'' character]] simply introduces themselves as their species name and Wiggler from both ''[[Paper Mario Sticker Star]]'' and, as far as I'm concerned, ''[[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]]'' is just referred to as "Wiggler", despite also being referred to in ways that suggest a character. Yoshi is far from the only character to have his species name be used as a general term as well as a name and several of my examples still have articles despite that similarity. I don't think being a general term means it can't be used as an individual's name. {{User:Tails777/sig}}09:27, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::::Bob-omb is a distinct one-time character who has a role different from the others (unlike Yoshi), Goomba is a localization blunder (note the distinct Japanese name), MPA doesn't matter since they are to-be merged, and Wiggler's never been split off at all. None of those correlate at all to this. Yoshi has always been interchangeable in singular and plural. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:48, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::::From a functional standpoint, you are correct; Yoshi does not have many distinct features from his species (if we want to exclude the fact that he can breathe fire with a Power Flower, but that's a power-up). But if you wanna look at it from a functional standpoint, Bob-omb's entire role just led up to him exploding, just told in a fancier way. It was cool that he had amnesia and that he had no fuse and there was a backstory to that, but at the end of the day, from a functional standpoint, his entire story just led up to him exploding, which is just a short story long for the life of any typical Bob-omb we see in plenty of standard Mario games. And in battle, he body slammed, something Bob-ombs also do (primarily in the ''Paper Mario'' games). I'm more than willing to accept that we just don't agree on this and that is fine. From a functional standpoint, Yoshi isn't different from his species, but that's really not all there is to it. I still see multiple times Nintendo has made an effort to distinguish Yoshi as an individual; his confirmed status as a perfect attendee to ''Mario Party'' and ''Super Smash Bros.'' and consistently being singled out as a friend to the Mario Bros. being the main examples of this. {{User:Tails777/sig}}17:53, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::One game I think we should take a look at here is Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle. When Yoshi first appears, Beep-0 calls him "the famous Yoshi", then asks him "So Yoshi, is it true you have your own island?" {{User:Swallow/sig}} 06:34, October 3, 2022 (EDT)
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| I'm not ready to vote on this just yet, but I ''do'' think this should be a multi-option proposal instead of an all-or-nothing deal. The one thing I'm sure of right now is that the Yoshi article ''does'' have a problem with assuming that any singular green Yoshi is ''the'' Yoshi, even if it is not identified as such (e.g. ''NSMBWii'' and ''Color Splash''). I'd suggest either moving those sections to a possible appearances section a la [[Toad]]'s article or removing them entirely. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 22:06, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
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| :You know, I would be down with the Yoshi article having a "Possible appearances" section on his page. Feels like a good compromise. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:03, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| By the way, do we have any policy against plagiarized proposals? Hewer stated that this one is copied nearly word for word from [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|his proposal regarding Birdo]], and plagiarism on articles (or basically anywhere really) is regarded as unacceptable, so uh... {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:54, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| @BubbleRevolution What is the issue with that, when it is in the same boat? That's what I want to happen. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:46, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Because there's clearly examples of "Toad" as a singular character. Yes, there are instances of the franchise not really bothering to make a distinction between Toad as a character and Toad as a species at times, but the keyword here is "at times". There's plenty of instances of Toad as a character being treated as such (including the official Japanese website for the series referring to him this way), and Yoshi is very much the same way. There are Yoshis, and then there is THE Yoshi, who is treated as a singular character in the games he appears in, merging the pages would just make things unnecessarily confusing and also wouldn't reflect the actual way the "Yoshi" character is treated in appearances where they DO point out the one specific Yoshi. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 16:47, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| :In games with both singular and plural, they're really cutting back on distinguishing even ''that'', like MK8's DLC Yoshi colors. NSMBUDX having blue and yellow Toad share a generic "Toad" slot, and the new ''Strikers'' treating them like the other characters except by allowing multiple of them at once, thus using both concepts concurrently in functionally identical ways, which for us means violating the "once and only once" rule. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:55, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::DLC colors aren't really an indicator of much since that's not a story-based or in-universe sort of thing, it's literally just an alternate palette. Ultimately, the big issue is there are a large number of times that Yoshi and Toad ARE treated as singular characters, just ones part of a massively identical species. Erasing that from the wiki just complicates things and doesn't reflect the actual history of the series or the character. Comparing this to the Birdo proposal, the major difference between those two are that there aren't specific characters who are part of the "Birdo" species and aren't just generic Birdos, while there are several specific characters of the "Yoshi" race (Boshi, Mini-Yoshi), as well as numerous specific Toad characters, including Toadette, whose relationship with Toad ''the character'' has actually been specified multiple times.
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| ::To sum it up, yes, there are times when Nintendo doesn't bother to keep the distinction between character and species separate, but there are also numerous times when they ''do'', and this should be reflected on the wiki. Furthermore, in branding, Yoshi and Toad are treated as characters first and foremost, and as a species second. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 17:08, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::Hard agree with BubbleRevolution here, I was fine with the Boom Boom and Birdo merges because there wasn't much going for their respective species, but I think doing those merges for Yoshi, Toad and Kamek are just going too far are will lead to pretty messy and cramped organisation when there is a lot to say about both character and species. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 17:16, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::Yeah, merging Kamek would be a baffling choice since that one specific Magikoopa actually has a specific position in the world of the games and appears fairly consistently. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 17:23, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::I'm curious what you mean by "actual history of the series or the character," since both "character" and "species" iterations influence on each other is characterized at intervening points; MagiKamek is probably the most blatant example. To that end, I say keeping them split is a ''dis''service for leaving out important details of the design and characterization's influence. (Also, a lot of ''other'' games make a big point about there ''not'' being a "singular" Toad, like in ''Color Splash'' where it's the basis of a joke that otherwise makes no sense). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:27, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::But Yoshi, Toad, and Kamek all have been treated as recurring, singular individuals who also appear alongside others of their species. Yes, sometimes there's inconsistency, but in most appearances of the specific characters, they are explicitly treated as "_, the character" rather than "_, the species". Getting rid of the character page and merging it into the species pages doesn't reflect the official depictions of "Yoshi" as a singular entity. This is especially egregious for Kamek, who is a specifically established character who despite the Japanese name being the same, is ''always'' portrayed as one specific Magikoopa who acts as Bowser's advisor and raised him. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 18:35, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::[[Kamek#Mario Party 2|Except on a good chunk of appearances where he's some random guy]]. Might as well treat the singular Magikoopas predating SMW2 from ''Adventures'', ''Kun'', and ''Safari'' as him (and I question why we don't). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:54, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::Except those are specifically referred to as "Kamek" in the English games, so that counts as a source, there's also no real indication he's NOT supposed to be that same character, and just some random Magikoopa. The fact is, in Japanese, there's an "individual Kamek" and a "Kamek species", much like Yoshi or Toad, I did some digging and plenty of Japanese articles on the enemy point out a difference between "zako (generic enemy) Kamek" and "aide Kamek". We don't treat Magikoopas predating SMW2 as him as the "aide Kamek" character had not been established yet.
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| ::::::Regardless, this has gotten off-topic and the point I'm making is that there is a distinct "Yoshi" character, as established multiple times. Japanese sites I looked at also make a distinction between "Yoshi the character" and "Yoshi the race" so it's clear this isn't some localization-induced thing, there's a need for both pages. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 19:11, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::::::Just to clarify, we don't base ourselves on anything but official sources even in the context of Japanese material. ''Zako Kamek'' and ''aide Kamek'' aren't official names, ditto for ''Yoshi the character'' and ''Yoshi the race''. It's actually worth reminding how official text went as far as reminding us that ''Yoshi'' is not a personal name like ''Mario''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:09, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::::::::I figured I would add this here since it's pretty relevant to the proposal - I've indicated before that ''Super Mario RPG'' is, in my opinion, one of the strongest indicators for a Japanese depiction of Yoshi as a character (to say nothing of Toad, which is used in the context of an individual despite [[Toadofsky|some]] [[Hinopio|characters]] using some variant of it [Nintendo hardly if ever uses the same name for a character and species simultaneously in the same game, and I'd be curious if the movie will be the one to break that trend]). However, I came across something that made me do a double-take on that idea. Near the bottom of [https://www.patreon.com/posts/search-for-big-21801616 this Supper Mario Broth post] tracing high-quality artwork of <s>Beeg Yoshi</s> Baby Fat, you can see an official trading card labeling his Japanese name as plain Yoshi, instead of the expected Chibi-Yossy for a Baby Yoshi. This also calls into question the identity of "Yoshi" in the [[Wheeere's Yoshi?!|Yoshi Shell game]], which is a Baby Yoshi as well. Basically, the one talking green Yoshi in that appearance may just be a Yoshi that happens to talk, as "Yoshi" applies to other green members of his species. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
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| I would like to reiterate that, like Hewer stated before, that this proposal is copied nearly word for word from his [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|Merging this with Birdo]] proposal, just with every instance of "Birdo" swapped with "Yoshi" and vice versa (as well as their respective debut games being swapped), and the first sentence perring Doc removed. This is '''very''' noticeable when comparing the two proposals (seriously, ''both'' bring up that they keep thinking about the Miyamoto quote, both bring up that what on their respective pages may be mere fan speculation, even the darn ''proposal title'' has the exact same structure), and also highlight some anomalies:
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| *''"The rest of the history section '''(besides the show)''' is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article."'' There only ''was'' one Yoshi in the Super Mario World TV series, and that's Yoshi the character, but this sentence is still talking about Yoshi the species (their article actually ''never mentions'' the TV series at all). This was definitely blindly copied from the Birdo proposal, since multiple characters from the Birdo species appeared in the Super Mario Bros Super Show instead of a single Birdo.
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| *''"Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with '''Birdo''', Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa [...]"'' As I stated, this proposal swaps every instance of "Birdo" with "Yoshi" and vice versa, but this kind of creates an inconsistency with which species/character actually has less information than the other. According to Hewer's proposal, Birdo has less information for character and species each than Yoshi, but this proposal states that Yoshi has less information for those than Birdo. ''Which statement is actually correct here???'' If Yoshi actually has less info, doesn't that mean that Birdo should be ''re-split'', since it's being compared here with other individual characters like Toad and Kamek? Or does Yoshi have more information than Birdo after all, meaning that this is another blindly copied sentence that the proposer never thought twice about, and thus needs to be removed since it's an incorrect argument? Which is it??
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| Now that this problem is being largely ignored by anyone else is one thing I find concerning (I mean, it ''is'' plagiarism), but what I find even ''more'' concerning is that ''the proposer'', {{User|Teh Other}}, seemingly ignores this problem. In fact, Teh Other seemingly ''never'' left any comment here regarding the issues of the opposition, which are mostly countered by LinkTheLefty and Doc von Schmeltwick instead (the latter being the only other supporter of the proposal). Now the reason why I find the lack of Teh Other's presence concerning is because this proposal is ''his'' opinion, ''his'' reasoning why the Yoshi articles should be merged. And he just... blindly copied Hewer's proposal and swapped a couple of words. Are these his ''actual'' opinions, does he ''really'' think Birdo as a character and as a species have more separate information than Yoshi? Or was he too lazy to write up any arguments himself, and just lazily copied a similar proposal by someone else without ''actually reading'' what it said? I would really like Teh Other to reevaluate his proposal and address the problems from the copied proposal, as well as his actual arguments, ''in his own words''.<br>And again, I want to know if plagiarized proposals like this is actually allowed. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:41, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
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| :I apologize for not being diligent enough in cancelling this when it was first brought up. This isn't acceptable. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 11:59, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
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| ==Reverse the colored Yoshi merge==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|5-10|Keep colored Yoshi pages merged}}
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| This is probably going to be a controversial one but here we go! Up until a few years ago, each Yoshi color had its own individual article separate from this page. They were all merged into this article back in 2019 through a TPP you can see earlier on this talk page, and admittedly I supported it at the time, but I've come to believe that this was misguided, makes information on any individual Yoshi color more difficult to find, and was mostly the result of the longtime viewpoint that we don't split color variants, one that I've questioned the usefulness of more as time goes on. Let's say, for example, a reader wants to read only about what games a Red Yoshi appeared in, and/or what unique attributes Red Yoshis have, a perfectly valid possibility. Well, if they want to do that now, good luck. They'll have to comb through a currently 89k byte article and sift out any of the information about every other color of Yoshi.
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| To show that there is merit to this idea, I've listed every game where Yoshis have tangible gameplay differences (or other notable information, at least) that I can find:
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| *''Super Mario World'' - Each Yoshi has a different default ability when it holds a shell in its mouth. The game treats them as separate and you can only find non-green Yoshis in certain levels. The page currently makes no note of which levels they are actually found in, something that would be useful to note.
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| *''Super Mario Sunshine'' - Each color has a unique ability, and different fruits in the game determine the color. Because of this different missions require different Yoshis. Yes, it's technically a Green Yoshi that changes colors, but a colored Yoshi is a colored Yoshi, no need to split hairs.
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| *''Super Mario Run'' - Each Yoshi has different unlocking requirements, Blue Yoshi notably is the only Yoshi you can get in the free version of the game.
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| *''Super Mario Maker 2'' - Red Yoshi has a special fireball spitting ability rather than the tongue.
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| *''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'' - Depending on the level you play, the Yoshi is different. The article currently doesn't note where they appear. Worth noting that a German Club Nintendo guide gave each colored Yoshi a name in this game, not saying we should name the articles after them or that it's a huge point for splitting, but it's more information unique to each color.
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| *''Yoshi's Story'' - Each Yoshi has different fruit preferences, additionally Black and White Yoshis have a better Flutter Jump while Super Happy compared to the other colors. Different pitched voices too!
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| *''Yoshi's Island DS''/''Yoshi's New Island'' - Like SMW2, color is dependent on level, and it's not noted here.
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| *''Yoshi's Woolly World'' - The available colors are actually dependent on which save file you have, with only Red Yoshi being available by default in all of them. Once again, none of the specifics are noted here.
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| *''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' - The colored Yoshis have to be rescued in Yoob's Belly to escape and are found in different places. Again, the page barely mentions any of this.
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| *''Mario Golf: Super Rush'' - Unlock methods are different.
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| *''Mario Tennis Open'' - Different stats/character classes.
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| *''Mario Super Sluggers'' - Different stats. I believe they also have different roles in the story mode? Don't quote me on that, it's been a while since I've played the game and our coverage of the story mode isn't that great.
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| *''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' - Some of the alternate colors are used as staff ghosts.
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| *''Mario Kart Tour'' - Pretty much every difference that exists in the game. Introduced at different times with varying availability, different favored courses, and different special items.
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| I'm aware that several of these on their own may not necessarily warrant a split, however I'm of the opinion that, at some point, the whole becomes worth more than the sum of its parts. Therefore I don't find it useful to argue that any of these individual cases aren't worth splitting.
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| If this passes, the following articles will be reinstated for consistency:
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| *Black Yoshi
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| *Blue Yoshi
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| *Brown Yoshi
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| *Green Yoshi
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| *Light Blue Yoshi
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| *Orange Yoshi
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| *Pink Yoshi
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| *Purple Yoshi
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| *Red Yoshi
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| *White Yoshi
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| *Yellow Yoshi
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| The Yoshi (species) page will remain intact and will continue to cover general information on Yoshis as needed.
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|
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': <s>November 12, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to November 19, 2022, 23:59 GMT
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|
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| ====Support====
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Save the dinos!
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| #{{User|Spectrogram}} Strong support per proposal.
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| #{{User|KingGeoshiKoopshi64}} Per all. Some colored Yoshis have their own function and every indivitual color has it's purpose and history too. If there is a gallery for colored Yoshis then consistently so should their own articles and it makes it easier to read for what one they want to read about.
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Strong support. I've been pushing for this for some time; Yoshis have had more examples of individual statistics than most other color based species. And again, to draw the comparison I've drawn multiple times, we have articles for karts and gliders that are [[Blue Biddybuggy|palette]] [[Warship|swaps]] [[Green Cheep Charger|at]] [[Bull's-Eye Banzai|best]] and they still get articles for the same differences these Yoshis have; different names (albeit color based for the Yoshis), different favorite and favored courses, except the Yoshis have the added benefit of different items (barring Red Yoshi). I know Shy Guys and Toads have the same distinction in ''Mario Kart Tour'', but these Yoshis spread to a variety of different games, many of which are just as notable in their gameplay differing stats.
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| #{{user|WildWario}} Per proposal.
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|
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| ====Oppose====
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| #{{User|Swallow}} I'd still find this a bit excessive. The differences mentioned for games like Sunshine, Partners in Time, Yoshi's Island games don't really seem major enough to me to create an entirely new article for it. A majority of these differences can still be easily noted in this article without bloating it too much.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Basically per the proposal that merged them in the first place. If anything the points here feel like they're justifying a merge - if there's information missing from the article that concerns multiple Yoshi colours then all that needs doing is adding it, how is splitting the information across different articles meant to help?
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| #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per all, plus certain games having ambiguities with things like brown/orange and white/really really light blue.
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| #{{User|Somethingone}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Archivist Toadette}} This proposal fails to take into account different-colored members of other species that have similar different "stats" in the listed games, and I also agree with Hewer that it feels like attempting to falsely justify a split. Per all.
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Wikiboy10}} After much careful consideration, I chose to oppose this. This is a tricky issue because of the few games where they do indeed have a unique ability. The problem is that there aren't ''enough'' appearances of these Yoshis to not have redundant sayings or stubs. Part of me did want to see separate articles for some of the Yoshis, but I haven't seen an attempt to show what a page could look like if it tries to split one of these colors. I saw what older pages tried to do with the colors, and the pages looked bad and cluttered. The article needs to make it easier to find a specific color which Waluigi Time is right about. This can be fixed by having a list of appearances by color section with a small table.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Perall.
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| #{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all and my support for the merge in the first place in the prior proposal.
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| #{{User|RealStuffMister}} Per all
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|
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| ====Comments====
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| @Hewer: The missing information is simply a separate issue that I'm making note of, obviously regardless of the direction this goes in that information should be added. It's relevant here however because that would be additional information unique to each color. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:31, October 29, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Except that much of it concerns all the colours and would be kind of annoying to read if it was split across different pages (Yoshi's Woolly World for example). I feel like these subjects are so intertwined and have so much information in common that keeping them on one page is the best and most logical option, which is why we don't split most colour variants in the first place - I'm sure one could make a case for splitting Koopa Troopa colours or Toad colours for unique traits they have but the problem is that they still have tons of information in common to the point splitting over just mentioning all the differences in one place is less convenient and pushing [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|once and only once]] a little. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:55, October 29, 2022 (EDT)
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| Splitting or merging the Yoshi articles into one is a rather complex issue. So I'll go into an analysis real quick:
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| '''''[[Super Mario World]]''''': [[Yoshi]], Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi are somewhat distinct from each other as they have a slight difference in ability. However, splitting all four of these Yoshis is difficult because we'd say the same thing about Yoshi's friends, the only difference being their shell ability. Out of all the Yoshis, Red is probably the most splittable, as he has appeared in [[Super Mario Maker 2|more than one game with a unique ability]]. That said, that doesn't add that much more to him as a character. I have a similar issue regarding [[Blue Toad (character)|Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series)|Yellow Toad]].
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|
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| '''''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]''''': We have some distinct abilities with the Yoshis here, even if they only spit [[Juice|juice]]. Once again, there isn't enough to split the page for clarity. Furthermore, all of these Yoshi colors are unique from the other games, so you couldn't even come up with enough information for just one of these colors.
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| '''''[[Super Mario Run]]''''': I don't think there's anything to split off here. All of the Yoshis are just color swaps.
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| '''''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]''''': Once again, Red Yoshi is a compelling debacle. Given that these are one of his few appearances with a unique ability, it is worth noting. Not sure if he has enough appearances to split him, though, as it's pretty rare for Yoshis of different colors to have special abilities other than stat differences.
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| '''''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]''''': These are just color swaps and nothing more. The names are worth noting in that section of the article.
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| ''[[Yoshi's Story]]'': This is interesting; we have Yoshis with different [[fruit]] preferences. Black and White Yoshi even have a distinctive [[Flutter Jump]] ability.
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| '''''[[Yoshi's Island DS]]'''''/'''''[[Yoshi's New Island]]''''': Same problem with ''YI''.
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| '''''[[Yoshi's Woolly World]]''''': Colors appear to be cosmetic and not gameplay-related.
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| '''''[[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time]]''''': Do each of the Yoshis have a unique personality?
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| '''''[[Mario Golf: Super Rush]]''''': Same issue with ''SMR''.
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| '''''[[Mario Tennis Open]]'''''/'''''[[Mario Super Sluggers]]''''': We now have different stats. This can create a loophole for splitting [[Toad (species)|Toad]] colors because of this. That's why stats are not worth anything.
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| '''''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]''''': These are alternate colors for Yoshi.
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| '''''[[Mario Kart Tour]]''''': Even variants of other characters have unique abilities. Is this worth splitting?
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|
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| So with my analysis, here are the Yoshis that are the most distinguishable in abilities:
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| *Red Yoshi
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| *Blue Yoshi
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| *Yellow Yoshi
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| *Orange Yoshi
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| *Pink Yoshi
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| *Purple Yoshi
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| *Light Blue Yoshi
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| *Black Yoshi
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| *White Yoshi
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|
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| I didn't include Green Yoshi as Yoshi serves as the Green Yoshi, which is evident in ''Sluggers'', where Red Yoshi refers to Yoshi as Green Yoshi. This is why we should have a possible appearances section for Yoshi since he has some unclear appearances.
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| A while back, [[Talk:Shell#Create_a_generic_Koopa_Shell_article,_reorganize_the_colored_shell_articles|we attempted to make a Koopa Shell article covering generic instances of a Koopa Shell and only bringing up other colors when it impacts colors.]] This could also work for the Yoshis since there are few select times when they have a unique ability.
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| As for now, I'm not sure whether or not we should split them. If I were, the colors I mentioned are the only ones I would choose to separate, and even then, it's tricky not to make these feel like stub articles. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 15:23, October 31, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Regarding ''Tour'' specifically, a proposal passed a while ago to make a page for each character's variants (i.e. a page containing all of Mario's variants) but it hasn't been enacted yet. (And honestly, I'd be down for splitting them into their own individual pages, but I know that's pretty radical.) Like I said, yeah, some of these aren't the most split-worthy on their own (or really split-worthy at all), but there are appearances that are worth splitting out, and enough information across the series to make a split viable. Might as well include everything relevant, after all. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:47, November 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| I haven't seen the opposition address the organizational issue of all colored Yoshis being dumped into a single article making it harder to find just information on any single color, which is one of the biggest issues here, in my opinion. Any counterarguments to that?
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| @Archivist Toadette: Not really, colored Yoshis have far more utility beyond just stat differences (most notably World, Sunshine, and Maker 2, where color impacts what abilities you have) and it's much easier to justify splitting colored Yoshis than colored Toads or Shy Guys (not something I'd oppose, to be fair). It's not exactly apples to apples. As an aside, I hope this wasn't your intention but your specific wording of "falsely justify" makes it sound like I'm presenting this in a deliberately misleading way or outright lying, which I don't appreciate. If you don't find it convincing, that's fine, but please try not to use terms that make the situation seem so objective. Everything I said in the proposal was accurate to my knowledge and none of the points are meant to individually justify a Yoshi split but are meant to serve as a collective example of there reasonably being different things that can be said about them in many games. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:47, November 2, 2022 (EDT)
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| :The way I see it, the scope of this proposal is just too broad. I can totally see something like {{fake link|Red Yoshi}} being split out ONLY to cover the ''Super Mario World''/''Super Mario Maker 2'' form of Yoshi, but this proposal is calling for EVERY color variant of Yoshi to be split regardless of how major the color variants actually are. In the future, I suggest having an option to limit the splitting to just the ''Super Mario World'' forms (the two that don't have a proper article yet). {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 12:36, November 3, 2022 (EDT)
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| :The argument that it would be hard to find such and such information goes both ways. If the article was split then it wouldn't be as easy to find information on all the colours and how they relate. And again, Toads and Koopa Troopas can have many of these same arguments applied, but in my opinion it's more concise and informative to have one article saying 'green ones go off the edge and red ones don't' than to split that into two extremely similar articles. Besides, I can't really think of a game that only has Yoshis of one particular colour besides green as the colours share basically all of their appearances with each other, so it really wouldn't be that hard to find information on any given appearance of a particular colour. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:12, November 4, 2022 (EDT)
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| '''@Wikiboy10:''' I can offer my attempt at an example of what a Red Yoshi article could look like [[User:Tails777/Work#Red Yoshi|here]]. If this helps you or anyone else. It can always use improvement if anyone thinks it could work, but needs more work.
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| Also, as a general comment, there's more to the colored Yoshis in ''Mario Super Sluggers'' than just different stats. They are A. all unlockable and can't be used right away. B. can't be selected as team captains. C. have different star swings/pitches from Yoshi himself, which is a bit more notable than other alternate colors since Yoshi has a captain specific star swing/pitch. and D. they do indeed have different recruitment methods in Story Mode, with some of them offering different challenges while Red Yoshi simply requires the return of his Brush. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
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| == History for this page ==
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| This article is another great candidate for splitting its history section. It would be funny if the history page would be split into "History of Yoshi (species)", but it seems better if we can split it to "'''History of Yoshi species'''". {{User:Derekblue1/sig}} 09:48, December 2, 2023 (EST)
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| == I've had it ==
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| Okay, which one of you jokers deleted those light-blue Yoshi sprites?! {{User:BeefRocket/sig}}
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