Editing Talk:Yoshi (species)
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==Merge color Yoshies into Yoshi (species)== | ==Merge color Yoshies into Yoshi (species)== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|canceled}} | ||
[[Black Yoshi]], [[Red Yoshi]], [[Yellow Yoshi]], [[Blue Yoshi]], [[Orange Yoshi]], [[White Yoshi]], [[Light Blue Yoshi]], [[Brown Yoshi]], [[Pink Yoshi]], [[Green Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]. Most of those Yoshies have minute differences between them, and the ones that do have notable differences, well, those differences just aren't notable enough. If we leave, say, White, Black, Red, Blue and Yellow split and merge the rest, it wouldn't be consistent, whereas if we leave one or two really major ones, it would be fair, like [[Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad]]. | [[Black Yoshi]], [[Red Yoshi]], [[Yellow Yoshi]], [[Blue Yoshi]], [[Orange Yoshi]], [[White Yoshi]], [[Light Blue Yoshi]], [[Brown Yoshi]], [[Pink Yoshi]], [[Green Yoshi]] and [[Purple Yoshi]]. Most of those Yoshies have minute differences between them, and the ones that do have notable differences, well, those differences just aren't notable enough. If we leave, say, White, Black, Red, Blue and Yellow split and merge the rest, it wouldn't be consistent, whereas if we leave one or two really major ones, it would be fair, like [[Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad]]. | ||
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==Putting all colors of Yoshies into one article== | ==Putting all colors of Yoshies into one article== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|failed|2-16|leave as separate articles}} | ||
I think we should put all the colors in one article, so that helps the wiki get more organized. | I think we should put all the colors in one article, so that helps the wiki get more organized. | ||
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I meant more reference to where you found the name, but I still think that it's a bit loose to be added as a fact. But has enough proof to be logical. I'll stay neutral on this one. Be wary, I'm still not convinced that's enough though. (Also I don't think rideability is a qualification for yoshi, just saying). [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:40, 6 November 2017 (EST) | I meant more reference to where you found the name, but I still think that it's a bit loose to be added as a fact. But has enough proof to be logical. I'll stay neutral on this one. Be wary, I'm still not convinced that's enough though. (Also I don't think rideability is a qualification for yoshi, just saying). [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:40, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
:I imagine the name came from a shokakugan guide or the Japanese ''Mario Party Advance''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:41, 6 November 2017 (EST) | :I imagine the name came from a shokakugan guide or the Japanese ''Mario Party Advance''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:41, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
::The name came definitely earlier than ''Mario Party Advance'', since {{ | ::The name came definitely earlier than ''Mario Party Advance'', since {{media link|SMAGPB6 Dorrie.png|an official Japanese book published by Shogakukan in 1999 already reported said name}}, so I guess it came from the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario 64.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
Eh, as long as the administrators are fine, go ahead and add it. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:48, 6 November 2017 (EST) | Eh, as long as the administrators are fine, go ahead and add it. [[User:Chat Man|Chat Man]] ([[User talk:Chat Man|talk]]) 00:48, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
The problem is what you mean by ''related''. Did the designers of [[Dorrie]] and [[Plessie]] follow guidelines similar to those used to design Yoshi and named the characters with the 「ッシー」 suffix accordingly? Likely yes. Does this mean that they are all related species? Definitely not! [https://microsite.nintendo-europe.com/nintendokidsclub/en_GB/read_and_discover/yoshi_facts Currently Yoshi is not considered a dinosaur], with the [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Kids section of Nintendo Co., Ltd. site|bio of Nintendo co., Ltd. from last year]] noting how the saddle is indeed a shell and suggesting that the possible candidates to identify Yoshi's species are dinosaurs and turtles. [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2017/October/Nintendo-Classic-Mini-SNES-developer-interview-Volume-5-Super-Mario-World-and-Super-Mario-World-2-Yoshi-s-Island-1290850.html This year's interview about the origin of Yoshi finally clarified that indeed Yoshi had a shell on the back and was intended to be related to turtles from the start]. Plessie on the other hand is officially considered a dinosaur. To remind you how similar development guidelines can often create characters which are then completely unrelated from a species point of view, I'd like to remind you how [[Madame Broode and Chain Chompikins|Madame Broode]] and the [[Broodals]] were almost surely based on [[Bowser]] and the [[Koopalings]], yet they are completely unrelated from a species point of view, since the formers are rabbits, the latters turtles.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST) | The problem is what you mean by ''related''. Did the designers of [[Dorrie]] and [[Plessie]] follow guidelines similar to those used to design Yoshi and named the characters with the 「ッシー」 suffix accordingly? Likely yes. Does this mean that they are all related species? Definitely not! [https://microsite.nintendo-europe.com/nintendokidsclub/en_GB/read_and_discover/yoshi_facts Currently Yoshi is not considered a dinosaur], with the [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Kids section of Nintendo Co., Ltd. site|bio of Nintendo co., Ltd. from last year]] noting how the saddle is indeed a shell and suggesting that the possible candidates to identify Yoshi's species are dinosaurs and turtles. [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2017/October/Nintendo-Classic-Mini-SNES-developer-interview-Volume-5-Super-Mario-World-and-Super-Mario-World-2-Yoshi-s-Island-1290850.html This year's interview about the origin of Yoshi finally clarified that indeed Yoshi had a shell on the back and was intended to be related to turtles from the start]. Plessie on the other hand is officially considered a dinosaur. To remind you how similar development guidelines can often create characters which are then completely unrelated from a species point of view, I'd like to remind you how [[Madame Broode and Chain Chompikins|Madame Broode]] and the [[Broodals]] were almost surely based on [[Bowser]] and the [[Koopalings]], yet they are completely unrelated from a species point of view, since the formers are rabbits, the latters turtles.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
:This comes from what, Nintendo of Europe or something? I'm talking something I'm pretty sure Miyamoto said (it was him or one of the other two). I've come to sort of distrust things that NoE have said, due to the fact that they so heavily contradict things that have been previously said. If Yoshi's not a Dinosaur, why is he the star inhabitant of [[Dinosaur Land]]? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:30, 6 November 2017 (EST) | :This comes from what, Nintendo of Europe or something? I'm talking something I'm pretty sure Miyamoto said (it was him or one of the other two). I've come to sort of distrust things that NoE have said, due to the fact that they so heavily contradict things that have been previously said. If Yoshi's not a Dinosaur, why is he the star inhabitant of [[Dinosaur Land]]? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:30, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
::The one who said that Yoshi is related to turtles is none other than [[Takashi Tezuka]], the director of ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and character designer as well (he himself made some sketches of Yoshi's preliminary design, correcting [[Shigefumi Hino]]'s first sketch of Yoshi which was lizard-like). And this is not an European thing, [https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/c/article/cb34ab17-9135-11e7-8cda-063b7ac45a6d.html it's on the Japanese site as well], with the very same text. Anyway, if you read [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-VAAAJ.pdf the original Japanese manual of ''Super Mario World''], you'll see that Yoshi was actually introduced as a 「ドラゴン」, a ''dragon'' (which is also why the [[Dragon Coin]]s were named like that!), {{ | ::The one who said that Yoshi is related to turtles is none other than [[Takashi Tezuka]], the director of ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and character designer as well (he himself made some sketches of Yoshi's preliminary design, correcting [[Shigefumi Hino]]'s first sketch of Yoshi which was lizard-like). And this is not an European thing, [https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/c/article/cb34ab17-9135-11e7-8cda-063b7ac45a6d.html it's on the Japanese site as well], with the very same text. Anyway, if you read [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-VAAAJ.pdf the original Japanese manual of ''Super Mario World''], you'll see that Yoshi was actually introduced as a 「ドラゴン」, a ''dragon'' (which is also why the [[Dragon Coin]]s were named like that!), {{media link|SMA2 NOG page 14.png|this being the term used to define Yoshi also in ''Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2''}}. Nonetheless, on {{media link|SMB4 NOG page 16.png|page 16 of the ''Nintendo Official Guidebook'' of said game}} Yoshi was indeed stated to be a 「恐竜」, a ''dinosaur'', as well. Regarding him being a turtle, well, this is actually pretty old, as {{media link|BabyGyoshi.png|the saddle was changed to be more shell-like in Yoshi's Story}}, and in the ''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010#Super Mario History Booklet|Super Mario History Booklet]]'' released in 2010 {{media link|SMHAmerican SMW and SMAS.jpg|Tezuka already said that Yoshi was supposed to be a species of Koopa}}, the only difference is that since last year Yoshi being a turtle started to appear in official bios and nowadays Tezuka speaks more openly, stating that Yoshi is indeed intended to be a turtle.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:06, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
:::OK. He's the one that said he was ''originally intended'' to be a turtle, now I remember But then he said that "The saddle was supposed to be his shell." This seems to inticatie that that hideous skinny preliminary Yoshi that can be seen with some supplemental material with the SNES Classic was the "turtle" design. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST) | :::OK. He's the one that said he was ''originally intended'' to be a turtle, now I remember But then he said that "The saddle was supposed to be his shell." This seems to inticatie that that hideous skinny preliminary Yoshi that can be seen with some supplemental material with the SNES Classic was the "turtle" design. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST) | ||
::::That's what he stated in 2010, look at what he states now:''I kind of forced the design through, saying, “It’s related to turtles.”'', Hisashi Nogami also sated that the saddle on his back is ''A shell. Even after I joined the company, Tezuka kept insisting that it was a shell.'', finally the interviewer, Akinori Sao, stated ''And that’s how Super Mario World, which debuted Yoshi as kin to turtles, became the top-selling title worldwide for Super NES.''. Ultimately, little has changed from what he already stated in 2010, the little difference is nonetheless there: before it was a thing of the past, now Yoshi is stated to have been designed as related to turtles and to actually have a shell on his back, which perfectly reflects what Yoshi's Japanese bio from yesteryear suggested when it stated ''Even though there's a shell on his back, we actually don't know whether Yoshi's a dinosaur or a turtle!''.-- | ::::That's what he stated in 2010, look at what he states now:''I kind of forced the design through, saying, “It’s related to turtles.”'', Hisashi Nogami also sated that the saddle on his back is ''A shell. Even after I joined the company, Tezuka kept insisting that it was a shell.'', finally the interviewer, Akinori Sao, stated ''And that’s how Super Mario World, which debuted Yoshi as kin to turtles, became the top-selling title worldwide for Super NES.''. Ultimately, little has changed from what he already stated in 2010, the little difference is nonetheless there: before it was a thing of the past, now Yoshi is stated to have been designed as related to turtles and to actually have a shell on his back, which perfectly reflects what Yoshi's Japanese bio from yesteryear suggested when it stated ''Even though there's a shell on his back, we actually don't know whether Yoshi's a dinosaur or a turtle!''.-- | ||
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== Merge all or certain color Yoshis into Yoshi (species) == | == Merge all or certain color Yoshis into Yoshi (species) == | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|12-1-2|merge}} | ||
This proposal will hopefully set out to do what the above tried. As noted, these are all aesthetic differences for the most part. The only time most of these colors affected platform gameplay was in ''Yoshi's Story'', where it decided their favorite fruit. This is not notable enough to have a series of separate articles over something that can simply be given a quick mention in one article. The other time they affected platform gameplay was in ''Super Mario World'', where Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi had a different ability depending on the Koopa shell they had in their mouth, but again, this something that is nonexistent in later appearances. Then there is the Green Yoshi article, which just has [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|overlap]] with the character and species. The proposal has two options: one to include all Yoshi colors in the species article, and one to keep the Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi articles. | This proposal will hopefully set out to do what the above tried. As noted, these are all aesthetic differences for the most part. The only time most of these colors affected platform gameplay was in ''Yoshi's Story'', where it decided their favorite fruit. This is not notable enough to have a series of separate articles over something that can simply be given a quick mention in one article. The other time they affected platform gameplay was in ''Super Mario World'', where Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi had a different ability depending on the Koopa shell they had in their mouth, but again, this something that is nonexistent in later appearances. Then there is the Green Yoshi article, which just has [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|overlap]] with the character and species. The proposal has two options: one to include all Yoshi colors in the species article, and one to keep the Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi articles. | ||
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== Potential to merge to Yoshi == | == Potential to merge to Yoshi == | ||
{{talk}} | |||
I know I'm liable to catch a lot of flak for this, but following the successful merges of Birdo and Boom Boom, I think it's time to examine whether this has any business being its own article. A grand majority of the time, "Yoshi" treated as someone's name is assigned arbitrarily to any nonspecific member regardless of things like color; this can be seen ''at least'' as far back as the ''Yoshi's Story'' manual and occurs even more often today (ie with Kangaroo Yoshi); another good example is with ''Super Mario Sunshine'' ("Yoshi's back, so saddle up!"), where he changes color and dissolves in water. Furthermore, it has been ''explicitly'' stated that "Yoshi" is not a singular individual, with it instead referring to any given one unless stated otherwise. That's not even getting into the fact that in the ''Yoshi'' franchise itself, the green-colored one rarely has any more prominence than any of the other colors, leaving plenty of redundancy between the pages. Also let's not forget how ''Mario Kart 8'' handles his color alts the same way as Shy Guys. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo has no interest in distinguishing these subjects (and in fact, seems to encourage them to be synonymous), so we really should reflect that. The only real example of a game I can think of having a specific "main" Yoshi alongside "minor" Yoshis is ''Super Mario RPG'', where all have such a minor role anyways a single page would also still probably be simpler. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, April 14, 2022 (EDT) | I know I'm liable to catch a lot of flak for this, but following the successful merges of Birdo and Boom Boom, I think it's time to examine whether this has any business being its own article. A grand majority of the time, "Yoshi" treated as someone's name is assigned arbitrarily to any nonspecific member regardless of things like color; this can be seen ''at least'' as far back as the ''Yoshi's Story'' manual and occurs even more often today (ie with Kangaroo Yoshi); another good example is with ''Super Mario Sunshine'' ("Yoshi's back, so saddle up!"), where he changes color and dissolves in water. Furthermore, it has been ''explicitly'' stated that "Yoshi" is not a singular individual, with it instead referring to any given one unless stated otherwise. That's not even getting into the fact that in the ''Yoshi'' franchise itself, the green-colored one rarely has any more prominence than any of the other colors, leaving plenty of redundancy between the pages. Also let's not forget how ''Mario Kart 8'' handles his color alts the same way as Shy Guys. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo has no interest in distinguishing these subjects (and in fact, seems to encourage them to be synonymous), so we really should reflect that. The only real example of a game I can think of having a specific "main" Yoshi alongside "minor" Yoshis is ''Super Mario RPG'', where all have such a minor role anyways a single page would also still probably be simpler. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, April 14, 2022 (EDT) | ||
:Funny, I was actually just thinking about this myself. Same can really be said about Toad, since both are just kinda an umbrella term for the overall species. Basically "All Yoshis/Toads are named Yoshi/Toad". But I'm still kinda on the fence about it, since I don't really agree with the merging of Birdo/Birdo's species. So I'm not entirely sure. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:45, April 14, 2022 (EDT) | :Funny, I was actually just thinking about this myself. Same can really be said about Toad, since both are just kinda an umbrella term for the overall species. Basically "All Yoshis/Toads are named Yoshi/Toad". But I'm still kinda on the fence about it, since I don't really agree with the merging of Birdo/Birdo's species. So I'm not entirely sure. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:45, April 14, 2022 (EDT) | ||
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== Merging this with [[Yoshi]] == | == Merging this with [[Yoshi]] == | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
When Nintendo includes Yoshi in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colors, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially, I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Yoshi is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario World information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Yoshis are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Yoshi is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article. Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Birdo, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br> | ||
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#{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all. While Nintendo doesn't bother to keep a distinction between Yoshi and the rest of his species most of the time, by the same logic we'd have to merge Toad with his species as well. | #{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all. While Nintendo doesn't bother to keep a distinction between Yoshi and the rest of his species most of the time, by the same logic we'd have to merge Toad with his species as well. | ||
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. I should've opposed the other ones when I had the chance. | #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. I should've opposed the other ones when I had the chance. | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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:::::::Just to clarify, we don't base ourselves on anything but official sources even in the context of Japanese material. ''Zako Kamek'' and ''aide Kamek'' aren't official names, ditto for ''Yoshi the character'' and ''Yoshi the race''. It's actually worth reminding how official text went as far as reminding us that ''Yoshi'' is not a personal name like ''Mario''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:09, October 9, 2022 (EDT) | :::::::Just to clarify, we don't base ourselves on anything but official sources even in the context of Japanese material. ''Zako Kamek'' and ''aide Kamek'' aren't official names, ditto for ''Yoshi the character'' and ''Yoshi the race''. It's actually worth reminding how official text went as far as reminding us that ''Yoshi'' is not a personal name like ''Mario''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:09, October 9, 2022 (EDT) | ||
::::::::I figured I would add this here since it's pretty relevant to the proposal - I've indicated before that ''Super Mario RPG'' is, in my opinion, one of the strongest indicators for a Japanese depiction of Yoshi as a character (to say nothing of Toad, which is used in the context of an individual despite [[Toadofsky|some]] [[Hinopio|characters]] using some variant of it [Nintendo hardly if ever uses the same name for a character and species simultaneously in the same game, and I'd be curious if the movie will be the one to break that trend]). However, I came across something that made me do a double-take on that idea. Near the bottom of [https://www.patreon.com/posts/search-for-big-21801616 this Supper Mario Broth post] tracing high-quality artwork of <s>Beeg Yoshi</s> Baby Fat, you can see an official trading card labeling his Japanese name as plain Yoshi, instead of the expected Chibi-Yossy for a Baby Yoshi. This also calls into question the identity of "Yoshi" in the [[Wheeere's Yoshi?!|Yoshi Shell game]], which is a Baby Yoshi as well. Basically, the one talking green Yoshi in that appearance may just be a Yoshi that happens to talk, as "Yoshi" applies to other green members of his species. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT) | ::::::::I figured I would add this here since it's pretty relevant to the proposal - I've indicated before that ''Super Mario RPG'' is, in my opinion, one of the strongest indicators for a Japanese depiction of Yoshi as a character (to say nothing of Toad, which is used in the context of an individual despite [[Toadofsky|some]] [[Hinopio|characters]] using some variant of it [Nintendo hardly if ever uses the same name for a character and species simultaneously in the same game, and I'd be curious if the movie will be the one to break that trend]). However, I came across something that made me do a double-take on that idea. Near the bottom of [https://www.patreon.com/posts/search-for-big-21801616 this Supper Mario Broth post] tracing high-quality artwork of <s>Beeg Yoshi</s> Baby Fat, you can see an official trading card labeling his Japanese name as plain Yoshi, instead of the expected Chibi-Yossy for a Baby Yoshi. This also calls into question the identity of "Yoshi" in the [[Wheeere's Yoshi?!|Yoshi Shell game]], which is a Baby Yoshi as well. Basically, the one talking green Yoshi in that appearance may just be a Yoshi that happens to talk, as "Yoshi" applies to other green members of his species. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT) | ||