Editing Talk:Yoshi's Island (location)
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== Split the two Islands of Yoshi == | == Split the two Islands of Yoshi == | ||
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So, as previously discussed above, there are actually two islands that, thanks to some serendipity in localization and naming, are both known as "Yoshi's Island" in English. We have them here haphazardly merged together, despite being no more similar to each other than either are to [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], [[Egg Island]], or [[Craft Island]], each of which has had a turn as "the" home of the Yoshis. The language-of-origin Japanese text for Yoshi's trophy in ''Smash 3DS/Wii U'' explicitly lists them as separate locations (not just ''names'' them, but ''lists'' them), so they are, for all intents and purposes, not the same place (and it's not like we don't already split a lot of things from "[[Yoshi's Island]]" anyway despite the shared name, but that's a separate issue). I was waiting to see what role the English-made movie would go with and what name it would have in the Japanese version, but since that ended up amounting to a 5-second cameo, we technically don't even know if it's ''any'' Yoshi's Island, though it seems safest to say it's based on SMW2 based on its design and limited look at its contents. | So, as previously discussed above, there are actually two islands that, thanks to some serendipity in localization and naming, are both known as "Yoshi's Island" in English. We have them here haphazardly merged together, despite being no more similar to each other than either are to [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], [[Egg Island]], or [[Craft Island]], each of which has had a turn as "the" home of the Yoshis. The language-of-origin Japanese text for Yoshi's trophy in ''Smash 3DS/Wii U'' explicitly lists them as separate locations (not just ''names'' them, but ''lists'' them), so they are, for all intents and purposes, not the same place (and it's not like we don't already split a lot of things from "[[Yoshi's Island]]" anyway despite the shared name, but that's a separate issue). I was waiting to see what role the English-made movie would go with and what name it would have in the Japanese version, but since that ended up amounting to a 5-second cameo, we technically don't even know if it's ''any'' Yoshi's Island, though it seems safest to say it's based on SMW2 based on its design and limited look at its contents. | ||
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#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal | #{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal | ||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. | #{{User|Hewer}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Yo'ster}} | #{{User|Yo'ster}} Per my comments in the discussion above. If you look at it from an unbiased point of view, rather than just going off of preconceived notions, they are quite obviously different locations and are only considered one in the same due to the English localization arbitrarily giving them the same name. Also, since this wasn't brought up in the proposal, I should clarify that their names in Japanese are actually {{hover|ヨースター島|Yoster Tou}} (SMW) and {{hover|ヨッシーアイランド|Yoshi Island}} (YI), which are not similar at all besides starting with ヨ (Yo), and they don't use the same word for "Island" either. In other words, it's not a minor spelling difference as it appears to be when directly translated into English. | ||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} It is what it is. | #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} It is what it is. | ||
#{{User|Arend}} Per all, including Yo'ster. | #{{User|Arend}} Per all, including Yo'ster. | ||
#{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all, they're very clearly separate locations in Japanese and Smash Wii U ''explicitly'' refers to them as separate islands. There's no reason to keep them merged into a single article when they're very clearly distinct locations in Japanese. To quote my piece from the discussion section above: ''"The point I'm making is that there's far more evidence they're separate locations than there is that they're intended to be the same place. Separate Japanese names, separate looks, referred to as two different places; the only thing really linking the two as potentially being the same location is the shared English name. Let me put it this way: If the Super Mario World location was still called "Yoster Island" in English, would you still think they should share a single page?"'' | #{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all, they're very clearly separate locations in Japanese and Smash Wii U ''explicitly'' refers to them as separate islands. There's no reason to keep them merged into a single article when they're very clearly distinct locations in Japanese. To quote my piece from the discussion section above: ''"The point I'm making is that there's far more evidence they're separate locations than there is that they're intended to be the same place. Separate Japanese names, separate looks, referred to as two different places; the only thing really linking the two as potentially being the same location is the shared English name. Let me put it this way: If the Super Mario World location was still called "Yoster Island" in English, would you still think they should share a single page?"'' | ||
====Oppose==== | ====Oppose==== | ||
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#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. | #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all. | #{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|SmokedChili}} I considered supporting the split but changed my mind after looking into Melee where the Japanese stage select has "Yoshi Island" as the greater location of "Yo'ster Island". Compared with Yoshi's Japanese SSB4 trophy, I don't see anything that would make these two pieces of evidence contradict each other | #{{User|SmokedChili}} I considered supporting the split but changed my mind after looking into Melee where the Japanese stage select has "Yoshi Island" as the greater location of "Yo'ster Island". Compared with Yoshi's Japanese SSB4 trophy, I don't see anything that would make these two pieces of evidence contradict each other. Per all. | ||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Per all. I | #{{User|Shadic 34}} Per all. I don't think we need anymore "hair splitting" on this wiki. I think the [[Metal Mario]] article is the perfect example of one article that can talk about two slightly different subjects that revolve around the same idea at the same time, so even if some Yoshi's Islands have some differences from each other, I still think they shouldn't be split into separate articles because of how they're all still meant to be the same island. | ||
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all. | #{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all. | ||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
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:My interpretation is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless Super Mario World incarnation (which neither the SMRPG or Partners in Time resemble very well either, not even thematically, except the island theme in the basic sense; these are proposed to be in the same page) and expanded on it for the prequel. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:31, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | :My interpretation is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless Super Mario World incarnation (which neither the SMRPG or Partners in Time resemble very well either, not even thematically, except the island theme in the basic sense; these are proposed to be in the same page) and expanded on it for the prequel. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:31, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::Except the only aesthetic similarities between the SMW "Yoshi's Island" and the SMW2 "Yoshi's Island" is that there is green grass and a few round mountains (which are not the same color, have eyes, and are actually hills in SMW) on the world map. But how about thinking of this the other way, then? We're not separating these two just to separate them by name (you could very easily make the SMRPG and PIT incarnations their own pages, mind you), we're separating "SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island" from "Not SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island". This is because the SMW2 theming has largely stuck as what Nintendo uses for Yoshi's Island, and because the listed "Yo'ster Island" appearances are treated as "Yo'ster Island" in Japan. Plus, '''''We have a source in-game officially listing them as separate things.''''' We don't have any sources saying something along the lines of "Hey you know Yoshi's Island from SMW? Well it's actually the same location as the one seen in the Yoshi's Island series!". Consistent thematic, aesthetic, and enemy design + consistently different name in Language of Origin + an in-game source listing then as separate things with none saying otherwise = separate entity. The math is not hard. (And why exactly do you not want the Luigi's Manshion courses to be merged but want this to ''stay'' merged? Editorial inertia?) {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:54, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | ::Except the only aesthetic similarities between the SMW "Yoshi's Island" and the SMW2 "Yoshi's Island" is that there is green grass and a few round mountains (which are not the same color, have eyes, and are actually hills in SMW) on the world map. But how about thinking of this the other way, then? We're not separating these two just to separate them by name (you could very easily make the SMRPG and PIT incarnations their own pages, mind you), we're separating "SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island" from "Not SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island". This is because the SMW2 theming has largely stuck as what Nintendo uses for Yoshi's Island, and because the listed "Yo'ster Island" appearances are treated as "Yo'ster Island" in Japan. Plus, '''''We have a source in-game officially listing them as separate things.''''' We don't have any sources saying something along the lines of "Hey you know Yoshi's Island from SMW? Well it's actually the same location as the one seen in the Yoshi's Island series!". Consistent thematic, aesthetic, and enemy design + consistently different name in Language of Origin + an in-game source listing then as separate things with none saying otherwise = separate entity. The math is not hard. (And why exactly do you not want the Luigi's Manshion courses to be merged but want this to ''stay'' merged? Editorial inertia?) {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:54, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:: "they probably took the name" That's the thing, though; they didn't. They're called {{hover|ヨースター島|Yoster Tou}} (SMW) and {{hover|ヨッシーアイランド|Yoshi Island}} (YI) respectively in in Japanese, which are not similar names at all. Same thing with @Ray Trace who said "the Partners in Time [island] which has the same name". It literally does not, that's the whole issue. There's no indication they're supposed to be the same other than the English localization and the vague idea of Yoshis living there. It seems like you guys are already biased towards the assumption they're the same just from playing the English versions first. | :: "they probably took the name" That's the thing, though; they didn't. They're called {{hover|ヨースター島|Yoster Tou}} (SMW) and {{hover|ヨッシーアイランド|Yoshi Island}} (YI) respectively in in Japanese, which are not similar names at all. Same thing with @Ray Trace who said "the Partners in Time [island] which has the same name". It literally does not, that's the whole issue. There's no indication they're supposed to be the same other than the English localization and the vague idea of Yoshis living there. It seems like you guys are already biased towards the assumption they're the same just from playing the English versions first. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 06:42, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:I'd moreso like to know exactly was meant by "the noncanonicty nature of the series" since that phrase can be taken the wrong way (I was going to add something to the effect of "dismissing sources on factors like purported obscurity seems like a degree away from making canon judgments" during one of my last proposals). Either way, if this proposal fails, would it be unreasonable to go into more detail in the introduction as to reasons why it may not necessarily always be intended as the same location? We already do a similar thing with subjects like Missile/Bull's-Eye Bill and Grinder/Ukiki. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:18, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :I'd moreso like to know exactly was meant by "the noncanonicty nature of the series" since that phrase can be taken the wrong way (I was going to add something to the effect of "dismissing sources on factors like purported obscurity seems like a degree away from making canon judgments" during one of my last proposals). Either way, if this proposal fails, would it be unreasonable to go into more detail in the introduction as to reasons why it may not necessarily always be intended as the same location? We already do a similar thing with subjects like Missile/Bull's-Eye Bill and Grinder/Ukiki. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:18, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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'''@7feetunder''' The "few unspecified randos" isn't an argument for this, it's a rebuttal to the "this is what our readers expect ùwú" that I've been seeing recently as a "no, you can't pigeonhole that." As for the K. Rool thing, that was a clear mistake contradicting literally everything else, this contradicts nothing (not even the localization, different places can have the same name). Plus, this was in the era of updates that can remove errors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT) | '''@7feetunder''' The "few unspecified randos" isn't an argument for this, it's a rebuttal to the "this is what our readers expect ùwú" that I've been seeing recently as a "no, you can't pigeonhole that." As for the K. Rool thing, that was a clear mistake contradicting literally everything else, this contradicts nothing (not even the localization, different places can have the same name). Plus, this was in the era of updates that can remove errors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Like I stated in my comment in the discussion above, as far as I can tell, the only two mistakes in Smash that weren't a result of a mistranslation were the K. Rool's brother thing in Brawl and Count Canoli stated to be from the Wario Land series in Ultimate. That's two mistakes compared to the 99% of information in the Smash series that is accurate. And 100% accurate (again, AFAIK) in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description. Same with their stages since Brawl. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd believe the two islands are the same if I was a Japanese fan. | :Like I stated in my comment in the discussion above, as far as I can tell, the only two mistakes in Smash that weren't a result of a mistranslation were the K. Rool's brother thing in Brawl and Count Canoli stated to be from the Wario Land series in Ultimate. That's two mistakes compared to the 99% of information in the Smash series that is accurate. And 100% accurate (again, AFAIK) in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description. Same with their stages since Brawl. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd believe the two islands are the same if I was a Japanese fan. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 05:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::"''in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description.''" Just to clarify, is that something in the Japanese versions of the games? I took a cursory look at our trophy pages, and the English scripts seem to use the umbrella term "Yoshi's Island", unless I need an eye check. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:05, April 21, 2023 (EDT)~ | ::"''in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description.''" Just to clarify, is that something in the Japanese versions of the games? I took a cursory look at our trophy pages, and the English scripts seem to use the umbrella term "Yoshi's Island", unless I need an eye check. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:05, April 21, 2023 (EDT)~ | ||
:::Yes, you are correct. See BubbleRevolution's comment at 18:44, December 13, 2021 (EST) in the discussion above. It was also mentioned in the opening paragraph of the propsal. Edit: You can see it for yourself here: https://youtu.be/Kjy7Gd4cjrM?t=418 It's the same in the 3DS version, which makes it even less likely that it's a mistake, now that I think about it. | :::Yes, you are correct. See BubbleRevolution's comment at 18:44, December 13, 2021 (EST) in the discussion above. It was also mentioned in the opening paragraph of the propsal. Edit: You can see it for yourself here: https://youtu.be/Kjy7Gd4cjrM?t=418 It's the same in the 3DS version, which makes it even less likely that it's a mistake, now that I think about it. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 06:15, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
'''@"Oppose" voters''' I honestly do not understand the logic with merging these but not Lavalava Island, Craft Island, etc. At that point you might as well just merge every single islands were Yoshis live at this point. I'm open to changing my mind, so can someone against the split please explain your point of view regarding this? The only argument you seem to have is basically "they have the same name in English lol". | '''@"Oppose" voters''' I honestly do not understand the logic with merging these but not Lavalava Island, Craft Island, etc. At that point you might as well just merge every single islands were Yoshis live at this point. I'm open to changing my mind, so can someone against the split please explain your point of view regarding this? The only argument you seem to have is basically "they have the same name in English lol". --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 05:32, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:something something "our readers come here for this", something something "there's uhm uuh there's one isolated reference to the game yoshi's island, ''clearly'' they must be the same island (even though you could make the same argument for the literal yoshis living there)" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 05:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :something something "our readers come here for this", something something "there's uhm uuh there's one isolated reference to the game yoshi's island, ''clearly'' they must be the same island (even though you could make the same argument for the literal yoshis living there)" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 05:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::The two were made squarely after Yoshi's Island established itself. They're considered separate locations with little doubt about their names in several languages, unlike Yoshter where there is a conflict of naming schemes (especially in Smash Bros. that has two stages called "Yoshi's Island"), but also very notable in Partners in Time), on top of the very similar names, on top of the already-inconsistent portrayals of Yoshi's Island. [[Egg Island]] is Yoshi's Island all but in name but we have a page on it because of both the naming scheme ''and'' that the game it's in calls it a "second home" for the Yoshis. Maybe future games will mistakenly refer to Egg Island as Yoshi's Island because Egg Island has zero reason to be called such except probably coincide with the ''Yoshi's New Island'' game name, which would just make everyone even more confused, but until then it's called as such across all languages and called a "second home" and so we anticipate a page on it. I mean if Egg Island gets a page without a doubt I don't think it's unreasonable to make pages for Lavalava Island or Craft Island (the latter being also basically Yoshi's Island but having unambiguously a different name and probably to coincide with the game's themes) and maybe just refer to them because they're so similar to Yoshi's Island that the casual reader might think they're Yoshi's Island. Lavalava Island is not the best example to bring up either IMO; the location isn't significantly stand-out in its use of Yoshi's Island elements barring Yoshi residents and Lava Piranha Plant; the entire game already borrows from Yoshi's Island from enemies like Lantern Ghosts, Bandits, Bumpties, Crayzee Dayzees, and Little Mousers and even referencing several enemy designs including Boo, Goomba, and the Paratroopas. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ::The two were made squarely after Yoshi's Island established itself. They're considered separate locations with little doubt about their names in several languages, unlike Yoshter where there is a conflict of naming schemes (especially in Smash Bros. that has two stages called "Yoshi's Island"), but also very notable in Partners in Time), on top of the very similar names, on top of the already-inconsistent portrayals of Yoshi's Island. [[Egg Island]] is Yoshi's Island all but in name but we have a page on it because of both the naming scheme ''and'' that the game it's in calls it a "second home" for the Yoshis. Maybe future games will mistakenly refer to Egg Island as Yoshi's Island because Egg Island has zero reason to be called such except probably coincide with the ''Yoshi's New Island'' game name, which would just make everyone even more confused, but until then it's called as such across all languages and called a "second home" and so we anticipate a page on it. I mean if Egg Island gets a page without a doubt I don't think it's unreasonable to make pages for Lavalava Island or Craft Island (the latter being also basically Yoshi's Island but having unambiguously a different name and probably to coincide with the game's themes) and maybe just refer to them because they're so similar to Yoshi's Island that the casual reader might think they're Yoshi's Island. Lavalava Island is not the best example to bring up either IMO; the location isn't significantly stand-out in its use of Yoshi's Island elements barring Yoshi residents and Lava Piranha Plant; the entire game already borrows from Yoshi's Island from enemies like Lantern Ghosts, Bandits, Bumpties, Crayzee Dayzees, and Little Mousers and even referencing several enemy designs including Boo, Goomba, and the Paratroopas. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
I also find it weird that most of the opposition basically boil down to "they still have the same name in English", when it's the exact same predicament as [[Piranha Plant (Pit of 100 Trials)]], which was split from [[Piranha Plant]] ''purely'' due to its Japanese name being different (it looks otherwise identical to any Piranha Plant). I'm not sure why that's allowed to be split, but this isn't. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:43, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | I also find it weird that most of the opposition basically boil down to "they still have the same name in English", when it's the exact same predicament as [[Piranha Plant (Pit of 100 Trials)]], which was split from [[Piranha Plant]] ''purely'' due to its Japanese name being different (it looks otherwise identical to any Piranha Plant). I'm not sure why that's allowed to be split, but this isn't. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:43, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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:::Elaborating: the Piranha Plant situation in Thousand-Year Door is an anomaly of English localization. The Pit of 100 Trials enemy in the Tattle Log says "''It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled!''" and every other localization coined a unique name for the thing. On top of this, Pale Piranha adds to the confusion, where English localization deems it as a "new" enemy but the Tattle Log is ambiguous about its identity ("'' That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants''") while every other language makes it more clear that it's just a normal Piranha Plant that's faded (so I ask rhetorically, where does that leave the Pit of 100 Trials plant??). While I believe Pale Piranha should just have its own page, I do think this is the case where English localization messed up and dealt us a bad hand, so I'm not opposed to the current setup of Pale Piranha merged in Piranha Plant either. See [[Talk:Pale Piranha]]; it's a contentious gray zone... a zone as gray as that Piranha Plant, the votes there are also quite divided on the merge. As I said, Japanese names CAN add clarity to a situation, and this is the one example I had in mind when I said that, but it cannot be relied on its own, it has to be supported by additional evidence as well as evidence of flaws in English localization. This is why I don't support splitting this on Japanese names but splitting the Pit of 100 Trials Piranha Plant on the Japanese names. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:41, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :::Elaborating: the Piranha Plant situation in Thousand-Year Door is an anomaly of English localization. The Pit of 100 Trials enemy in the Tattle Log says "''It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled!''" and every other localization coined a unique name for the thing. On top of this, Pale Piranha adds to the confusion, where English localization deems it as a "new" enemy but the Tattle Log is ambiguous about its identity ("'' That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants''") while every other language makes it more clear that it's just a normal Piranha Plant that's faded (so I ask rhetorically, where does that leave the Pit of 100 Trials plant??). While I believe Pale Piranha should just have its own page, I do think this is the case where English localization messed up and dealt us a bad hand, so I'm not opposed to the current setup of Pale Piranha merged in Piranha Plant either. See [[Talk:Pale Piranha]]; it's a contentious gray zone... a zone as gray as that Piranha Plant, the votes there are also quite divided on the merge. As I said, Japanese names CAN add clarity to a situation, and this is the one example I had in mind when I said that, but it cannot be relied on its own, it has to be supported by additional evidence as well as evidence of flaws in English localization. This is why I don't support splitting this on Japanese names but splitting the Pit of 100 Trials Piranha Plant on the Japanese names. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:41, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
'''@ | '''@{{User|SmokedChili}}''' Sadly, that just brings more questions than answers. If Yo'ster Island is part of Yoshi's Island, does that mean Dinosaur Land is part of Yoshi's Island too? Or is Yoshi's Island part of Dinosaur Land? And how is Yo'ster Island supposed to be also part of a bigger island judging from its layout in any of the games? Also, why would the SSB4 trophy mention both islands and not just the greater location of Yoshi's Island? I'd love for it to be the case that both interpretations are correct, but it doesn't make much sense to me and contradicts pretty much everything else despite what you said, unless I'm misunderstanding something. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 11:38, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Considering that Dinosaur Land isn't even close to the vicinity of YI's Yoshi's Island (as it is nowhere to be seen on the title screen), I'm really not sure to believe that Yo'ster Island is supposed to be a small part of Yoshi's Island (or in turn, if Yoshi's Island either is a small part of Dinosaur Land, or even ''is'' Dinosaur Land). Considering that "greater locations" were opted out from stages in later Smash titles, I'm more inclined to believe that this is either a flub or a "series generalization" (as the Melee stage is regarded as a Yoshi series stage despite obviously being based on a Super Mario World location). For example, both Mute City and Big Blue's greater location is "F-Zero Grand Prix", which is not a location, but an event; as both courses take place on different planets. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:24, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :Considering that Dinosaur Land isn't even close to the vicinity of YI's Yoshi's Island (as it is nowhere to be seen on the title screen), I'm really not sure to believe that Yo'ster Island is supposed to be a small part of Yoshi's Island (or in turn, if Yoshi's Island either is a small part of Dinosaur Land, or even ''is'' Dinosaur Land). Considering that "greater locations" were opted out from stages in later Smash titles, I'm more inclined to believe that this is either a flub or a "series generalization" (as the Melee stage is regarded as a Yoshi series stage despite obviously being based on a Super Mario World location). For example, both Mute City and Big Blue's greater location is "F-Zero Grand Prix", which is not a location, but an event; as both courses take place on different planets. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:24, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Plus, that may actually be greater cause for a split instead, given that the wiki hardly merges "greater" locations with "lesser" ones. If you look at [https://themushroomkingdom.net/ssbm_j2e.shtml#stages this], every other ''Mario''-related greater location is indeed its own article. And this explains perfectly why the equivalent English text goes with the incredibly awkward "Yoshi's Island ''Yoshi's Island''" when no other stage repeats itself. The impression I get is “localizer plugged official translations in processor and editor didn't notice how strange it looked in-game” rather than a deliberate attempt at making them the same location in and of itself, which would've been better conveyed had it been formatted like the Mushroom Kingdom and Mushroom Kingdom II stages | :Plus, that may actually be greater cause for a split instead, given that the wiki hardly merges "greater" locations with "lesser" ones. If you look at [https://themushroomkingdom.net/ssbm_j2e.shtml#stages this], every other ''Mario''-related greater location is indeed its own article. And this explains perfectly why the equivalent English text goes with the incredibly awkward "Yoshi's Island ''Yoshi's Island''" when no other stage repeats itself. The impression I get is “localizer plugged official translations in processor and editor didn't notice how strange it looked in-game” rather than a deliberate attempt at making them the same location in and of itself, which would've been better conveyed had it been formatted like the Mushroom Kingdom and Mushroom Kingdom II stages. (Side note, I wonder if someone thought "Yoshi Island" was synonymous with "Dinosaur Land" or if they just needed something to pair with the Yoshi's Story stage.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:25, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
(''I started this in response to KCC's comment just above but this turned into more of a general point, and it's not exclusively aimed at him'') I was initially going to add a longer reason for my oppose vote but this attitude from some people on the support side (and the proposal itself) is exactly what switched me off from doing so, and I'd imagine plenty of other people on the oppose side are in the same boat. There's no need to be so condescending about this, especially considering it's a trivial thing which basically boils down to each voter's opinion whether the two being different in the Japanese version should matter to us or not. | (''I started this in response to KCC's comment just above but this turned into more of a general point, and it's not exclusively aimed at him'') I was initially going to add a longer reason for my oppose vote but this attitude from some people on the support side (and the proposal itself) is exactly what switched me off from doing so, and I'd imagine plenty of other people on the oppose side are in the same boat. There's no need to be so condescending about this, especially considering it's a trivial thing which basically boils down to each voter's opinion whether the two being different in the Japanese version should matter to us or not. | ||
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:Apologies if I came off as condescending, it wasn't my intent. I understand your position, however I think you missed the point of the proposal. No one wants to make a "Yo'ster Island" article; if that were the case, I'd agree with you, but the proposal was specifically to split them between '''Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)''' and '''Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)''' (Doc von Schmeltwick's probably should've mentioned that at the start instead of only mentioning it in an addendum, but oh well). This is because they are literally two different locations who were given the same name in the English localizations. I'm not gonna go into the arguments again as you can read them above, but the short version is that in addition to them not having the same name, they also have little to do with each other besides being islands where Yoshis live. | :Apologies if I came off as condescending, it wasn't my intent. I understand your position, however I think you missed the point of the proposal. No one wants to make a "Yo'ster Island" article; if that were the case, I'd agree with you, but the proposal was specifically to split them between '''Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)''' and '''Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)''' (Doc von Schmeltwick's probably should've mentioned that at the start instead of only mentioning it in an addendum, but oh well). This is because they are literally two different locations who were given the same name in the English localizations. I'm not gonna go into the arguments again as you can read them above, but the short version is that in addition to them not having the same name, they also have little to do with each other besides being islands where Yoshis live. | ||
:If you still disagree with the proposal even after taking that into account, that's okay too. If your idea is that the articles should stay merged because that's what English speakers know them as, despite being different locations, I still disagree but it's at least more understandable. Though if it stays merged, I feel it should at least be noted that they are indeed different islands with different names in Japanese. | :If you still disagree with the proposal even after taking that into account, that's okay too. If your idea is that the articles should stay merged because that's what English speakers know them as, despite being different locations, I still disagree but it's at least more understandable. Though if it stays merged, I feel it should at least be noted that they are indeed different islands with different names in Japanese. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 14:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::Thanks for clarifying that, if it does pass then calling both "Yoshi's Island" definitely makes more sense. Also I hadn't noticed anything you'd said in particular, so no worries. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 14:37, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ::Thanks for clarifying that, if it does pass then calling both "Yoshi's Island" definitely makes more sense. Also I hadn't noticed anything you'd said in particular, so no worries. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 14:37, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:@Mr Concrete Donkey: You took the policy out of context and applied it to something unrelated. Very convenient for the point you are trying to make, but disingenuous all the same.<br>The policy you quoted concerns subject names, '''''and nothing more'''''. I don't see it making a single case for using that specific aspect as a thrust for the wiki's organisation (that obviously shouldn't even be in the policy's scope). Perhaps you can show me where it does? Anyhow, two completely unrelated things can have the same name in English, like [[Boomer (Donkey Kong Country 3)|Boomer]] and [[Boomer (Super Paper Mario)|Boomer]]; for the same reasons you invoked earlier, would you say these warrant being merged?<br>I'm certain you would think of course not! Those characters have nothing in common, from species, to appearance, to even the context they are found in. So here's the real kicker: based on much the same criteria, Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island aren't the same place either. They are both inhabited by Yoshis, and both have the same English name, but that's where the similarities end. Nevermind the different appearance and context: they are indicated as being separate by all lang-of-origin sources, including the games themselves, and I'd be hard pressed to think these, of all conceivable media and authorities on the matter, weren't overseen by whatever entity at Nintendo keeps the brand and its constituent elements in check. I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"{{'}}s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from ''Super Mario World''{{'}}s original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market; regardless of whether or not this actually happened, the fact remains firm that the very people who created the games made a conscious decision to tie this place to the SMW Yoshi's Island, and that those who created the original ''Yoshi's Island'' game ostensibly didn't have an intention of expanding the first world of SMW into an entire game setting, if, again, the lang-of-origin name is anything to go by.<br>"''But we're English!!! Our readers!!!!!1!!1!''"<br>Anyone who still uses this argument needs to understand that it's a facet of a {{wp|Argumentum ad populum|well-known rhetorical fallacy}}. The wiki has chosen English as its lingua franca, because it had to choose one and it was (likely) most handy for the founder to use. That's all there is to it. This shouldn't by any means be an excuse to distort the authorial intent and developments of this wiki's relevant constructs, for at the end of the day the site's mission statement as an online encyclopedia is (or should be) accuracy, thoroughness, and reliability. Besides, as it's been posed a few times before: if these two incarnations of "Yoshi's home island" had altogether different names in English as they do in Japanese, would this discussion even take place? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :@Mr Concrete Donkey: You took the policy out of context and applied it to something unrelated. Very convenient for the point you are trying to make, but disingenuous all the same.<br>The policy you quoted concerns subject names, '''''and nothing more'''''. I don't see it making a single case for using that specific aspect as a thrust for the wiki's organisation (that obviously shouldn't even be in the policy's scope). Perhaps you can show me where it does? Anyhow, two completely unrelated things can have the same name in English, like [[Boomer (Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!)|Boomer]] and [[Boomer (Super Paper Mario)|Boomer]]; for the same reasons you invoked earlier, would you say these warrant being merged?<br>I'm certain you would think of course not! Those characters have nothing in common, from species, to appearance, to even the context they are found in. So here's the real kicker: based on much the same criteria, Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island aren't the same place either. They are both inhabited by Yoshis, and both have the same English name, but that's where the similarities end. Nevermind the different appearance and context: they are indicated as being separate by all lang-of-origin sources, including the games themselves, and I'd be hard pressed to think these, of all conceivable media and authorities on the matter, weren't overseen by whatever entity at Nintendo keeps the brand and its constituent elements in check. I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"{{'}}s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from ''Super Mario World''{{'}}s original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market; regardless of whether or not this actually happened, the fact remains firm that the very people who created the games made a conscious decision to tie this place to the SMW Yoshi's Island, and that those who created the original ''Yoshi's Island'' game ostensibly didn't have an intention of expanding the first world of SMW into an entire game setting, if, again, the lang-of-origin name is anything to go by.<br>"''But we're English!!! Our readers!!!!!1!!1!''"<br>Anyone who still uses this argument needs to understand that it's a facet of a {{wp|Argumentum ad populum|well-known rhetorical fallacy}}. The wiki has chosen English as its lingua franca, because it had to choose one and it was (likely) most handy for the founder to use. That's all there is to it. This shouldn't by any means be an excuse to distort the authorial intent and developments of this wiki's relevant constructs, for at the end of the day the site's mission statement as an online encyclopedia is (or should be) accuracy, thoroughness, and reliability. Besides, as it's been posed a few times before: if these two incarnations of "Yoshi's home island" had altogether different names in English as they do in Japanese, would this discussion even take place? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::"''I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"'s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from Super Mario World's original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market''" Pretty sure that's literally what it is. Same reason it's called "Yoshi's Island" in Smash, and every other English game besides Super Mario RPG. But yeah, the best argument I can see for "Oppose" at this point is "They're different places, but it's easier for English speakers to keep them merged", which seems inconsistent with the rest of the wiki as you pointed out. Though with your specific example, it could be argued that the Yoshi islands are still a lot more similar than the Boomers, but again that just goes back to, "are we going to merge everything that's slightly similar, by that logic Lavalava Island etc...". It's all arbitrary and up to discretion on where to draw the line. However, I feel the most important thing should probably be consistency, which is why I tend to agree with you on this matter. | ::"''I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"'s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from Super Mario World's original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market''" Pretty sure that's literally what it is. Same reason it's called "Yoshi's Island" in Smash, and every other English game besides Super Mario RPG. But yeah, the best argument I can see for "Oppose" at this point is "They're different places, but it's easier for English speakers to keep them merged", which seems inconsistent with the rest of the wiki as you pointed out. Though with your specific example, it could be argued that the Yoshi islands are still a lot more similar than the Boomers, but again that just goes back to, "are we going to merge everything that's slightly similar, by that logic Lavalava Island etc...". It's all arbitrary and up to discretion on where to draw the line. However, I feel the most important thing should probably be consistency, which is why I tend to agree with you on this matter. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::The Boomers were chosen simply to make a point that [[MarioWiki:Naming]] doesn't have jurisdiction over the merging or splitting of subjects, even when they share a name. I guess a more similar analogy to the two Yoshi's Islands would be [[Spiny]] and [[Spiny (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)]], since conceptually they can be seen as pretty much the same thing. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:20, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :::The Boomers were chosen simply to make a point that [[MarioWiki:Naming]] doesn't have jurisdiction over the merging or splitting of subjects, even when they share a name. I guess a more similar analogy to the two Yoshi's Islands would be [[Spiny]] and [[Spiny (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)]], since conceptually they can be seen as pretty much the same thing. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:20, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::Yeah, I getcha. I was basically just playing devil's advocate as I assumed someone would probably respond to you and say that. | ::::Yeah, I getcha. I was basically just playing devil's advocate as I assumed someone would probably respond to you and say that. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:23, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
Apologies in advance if this is uncouth, but I'd like to go into more detail and respond to some specific points made. If I mentioned you here, you don't need to respond, I just want to get all my thoughts out there. | Apologies in advance if this is uncouth, but I'd like to go into more detail and respond to some specific points made. If I mentioned you here, you don't need to respond, I just want to get all my thoughts out there. | ||
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You're working backwards from your conclusion here that the island from Yoshi's Island is definitely based on the one from Super Mario World, which is most likely not the case judging from their intended names given to them by their creators, like KOOPA CON CARNE said above. Also, you guys keep saying that it "has the same name" when it doesn't; the "same name" was added after the fact by the localization team. That's part of the whole issue. Try to look at it from a neutral point of view. | You're working backwards from your conclusion here that the island from Yoshi's Island is definitely based on the one from Super Mario World, which is most likely not the case judging from their intended names given to them by their creators, like KOOPA CON CARNE said above. Also, you guys keep saying that it "has the same name" when it doesn't; the "same name" was added after the fact by the localization team. That's part of the whole issue. Try to look at it from a neutral point of view. | ||
'''@7feetunder''' ''"I never saw'' "Yo'ster Isle" as a distinct entity, just another portrayal of the island."<br> | |||
'''@Ray Trace''' "Lavalava Island is also something ''I found'' very distinct than Yoshi's Island"<br> | '''@Ray Trace''' "Lavalava Island is also something ''I found'' very distinct than Yoshi's Island"<br> | ||
This is irrelevant, it doesn't matter what you personally thought. | This is irrelevant, it doesn't matter what you personally thought. For Ray's point specifically, if Lavalava has a similar amount of similarities to Yoshi's Island as PiT Yoshi's Island does, yet they're counted separately because they have different names, that should apply equally across the board. | ||
Again, if you recognize they're different locations but just think it's better to have them in one article due to sharing an English name, that's fine, but statements like these come off as speculative and headcanon-y (for lack of a better term). Again, apologies if this comes off as rude since that's not my intent. | Again, if you recognize they're different locations but just think it's better to have them in one article due to sharing an English name, that's fine, but statements like these come off as speculative and headcanon-y (for lack of a better term). Again, apologies if this comes off as rude since that's not my intent. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Given the lack of evidence for the separation (again the talk page above: and given the general chronology between World and World 2, given that some users had to dig through a ton of sources that either say little about, is ambiguous, or contradicts the subject until you found one that did); LinktheLefty did the same and had a comment that was very very inconclusive, see the comment made in 11:17, October 23, 2021 (EDT)[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=3489703&oldid=3488029][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489706][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489707]), I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation. As I said, I could see a case for the proto-Yoshi's Island from World being its own page, ''but'' this proposal is going to have an article that's split between two series all over a distinction that isn't even clear to begin with. Where is [[Yoshi's Island (board)]] going to go, with its appearance in the Mario series? It clearly alludes to the Yoshi series but what about the [[Yoshi's Island (golf course)]]? Is that going to be lumped with the Super Mario World Yoshi's Island? It's still effectively a Yo'shter island vs Yoshi's Island situation. As Mister Wu said in the above discussion, whatever distinction between these islands is blurred, but eventually lost as the brand developed, as seen in the interview with Toby Fox which Nintendo published. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:19, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :Given the lack of evidence for the separation (again the talk page above: and given the general chronology between World and World 2, given that some users had to dig through a ton of sources that either say little about, is ambiguous, or contradicts the subject until you found one that did); LinktheLefty did the same and had a comment that was very very inconclusive, see the comment made in 11:17, October 23, 2021 (EDT)[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=3489703&oldid=3488029][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489706][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489707]), I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation. As I said, I could see a case for the proto-Yoshi's Island from World being its own page, ''but'' this proposal is going to have an article that's split between two series all over a distinction that isn't even clear to begin with. Where is [[Yoshi's Island (board)]] going to go, with its appearance in the Mario series? It clearly alludes to the Yoshi series but what about the [[Yoshi's Island (golf course)]]? Is that going to be lumped with the Super Mario World Yoshi's Island? It's still effectively a Yo'shter island vs Yoshi's Island situation. As Mister Wu said in the above discussion, whatever distinction between these islands is blurred, but eventually lost as the brand developed, as seen in the interview with Toby Fox which Nintendo published. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:19, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::I don't think the interview helps prove anything. The writer/translator isn't the brand managing director, nor are they actually confirmed to have been in touch with someone in that position; for all we know, they just didn't care to research the topic like we do, and jotted down exactly what the interviewee said. It's not evidence that the committee has lost track of its own creation or something. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:31, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ::I don't think the interview helps prove anything. The writer/translator isn't the brand managing director, nor are they actually confirmed to have been in touch with someone in that position; for all we know, they just didn't care to research the topic like we do, and jotted down exactly what the interviewee said. It's not evidence that the committee has lost track of its own creation or something. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:31, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
