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| == Split into {{fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)}} and {{fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)}} == | | == Split into {{fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)}} and {{fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)}} == |
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| So this article is effectively talking about two fairly distinct locations muddled by localization. One is the small, tropical, and squarish "Yo'ster Island" that appears in ''Super Mario World'', ''Super Mario RPG'', and ''Partners in Time''. It is generally depicted with some polyhedral brown mountains covered in grass in the back and full of plants bearing those fruit Yoshi eats. The other is the sprawling, multi-biomed, rounded "Yoshi Island" that appears in the ''Yoshi's Island'' series proper, ''Yoshi's Story'', ''Mario Golf'', and ''Fortune Street''. This one consistently has a cluster of domed blue mountains covered in snow in the center and seems to have more rainbows than fruit. Both these differences are especially visible in the ''mash Bros.'' games. Despite both being "the home of the Yoshis," the same is said about [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], and even [[Yoshi Desert]], so it's not like that's ever been too consistent either. I think these should be split for clarity. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:49, September 16, 2021 (EDT) | | So this article is effectively talking about two fairly distinct locations muddled by localization. One is the small, tropical, and squarish "Yo'ster Island" that appears in ''Super Mario World'', ''Super Mario RPG'', and ''Partners in Time''. It is generally depicted with some polyhedral brown mountains covered in grass in the back and full of plants bearing those fruit Yoshi eats. The other is the sprawling, multi-biomed, rounded "Yoshi Island" that appears in the ''Yoshi's Island'' series proper, ''Yoshi's Story'', ''Mario Golf'', and ''Fortune Street''. This one consistently has a cluster of domed blue mountains covered in snow in the center and seems to have more rainbows than fruit. Both these differences are especially visible in the ''mash Bros.'' games. Despite both being "the home of the Yoshis," the same is said about [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], and even [[Yoshi Desert]], so it's not like that's ever been too consistent either. I think these should be split for clarity. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:49, September 16, 2021 (EDT) |
| :I honestly don't think ''Mario Golf'' supports your argument - while the giant fruits are an obvious nod to ''Yoshi's Story'', it is a tropical area with no sign of those blue snow-capped mountains. Additionally, while the huts in the ''Partners in Time'' incarnation seem to be inspired by [[Yoshi's House]], there are also a lot of ''Yoshi'' franchise references there: the ''SMW2'' title screen music in the village area, the Yoshi egg-patterned door at the summit, Kamek's involvement (and him outright calling back to the events of ''SMW2''), [[Chomp Rock]]s appearing in [[Yoob's Belly]], and just the fact that it's a Yoshi-themed area in a game where the baby bros. are main characters. There's a notable divide between the Rare and Retro Studios versions of [[Donkey Kong Island]], and we don't split that. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:24, September 16, 2021 (EDT) | | :I honestly don't think ''Mario Golf'' supports your argument - while the giant fruits are an obvious nod to ''Yoshi's Story'', it is a tropical area with no sign of those blue snow-capped mountains. Additionally, while the huts in the ''Partners in Time'' incarnation seem to be inspired by [[Yoshi's House]], there are also a lot of ''Yoshi'' franchise references there: the ''SMW2'' title screen music in the village area, the Yoshi egg-patterned door at the summit, Kamek's involvement (and him outright calling back to the events of ''SMW2''), [[Chomp Rock]]s appearing in [[Yoob's Belly]], and just the fact that it's a Yoshi-themed area in a game where the baby bros. are main characters. There's a notable divide between the Rare and Retro Studios versions of [[Donkey Kong Island]], and we don't split that. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:24, September 16, 2021 (EDT) |
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| == Split the two Islands of Yoshi == | | == Split the two Islands of Yoshi == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|13-18|Do not split}}
| | {{TPP}} |
| So, as previously discussed above, there are actually two islands that, thanks to some serendipity in localization and naming, are both known as "Yoshi's Island" in English. We have them here haphazardly merged together, despite being no more similar to each other than either are to [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], [[Egg Island]], or [[Craft Island]], each of which has had a turn as "the" home of the Yoshis. The language-of-origin Japanese text for Yoshi's trophy in ''Smash 3DS/Wii U'' explicitly lists them as separate locations (not just ''names'' them, but ''lists'' them), so they are, for all intents and purposes, not the same place (and it's not like we don't already split a lot of things from "[[Yoshi's Island]]" anyway despite the shared name, but that's a separate issue). I was waiting to see what role the English-made movie would go with and what name it would have in the Japanese version, but since that ended up amounting to a 5-second cameo, we technically don't even know if it's ''any'' Yoshi's Island, though it seems safest to say it's based on SMW2 based on its design and limited look at its contents. | | So, as previously discussed above, there are actually two islands that, thanks to some serendipity in localization and naming, are both known as "Yoshi's Island" in English. We have them here haphazardly merged together, despite being no more similar to each other than either are to [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], [[Egg Island]], or [[Craft Island]], each of which has had a turn as "the" home of the Yoshis. The language-of-origin Japanese text for Yoshi's trophy in ''Smash 3DS/Wii U'' explicitly lists them as separate locations (not just ''names'' them, but ''lists'' them), so they are, for all intents and purposes, not the same place (and it's not like we don't already split a lot of things from "[[Yoshi's Island]]" anyway despite the shared name, but that's a separate issue). I was waiting to see what role the English-made movie would go with and what name it would have in the Japanese version, but since that ended up amounting to a 5-second cameo, we technically don't even know if it's ''any'' Yoshi's Island, though it seems safest to say it's based on SMW2 based on its design and limited look at its contents. |
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| *''What about DK Island?'' - DK Island's language-of-origin was always English, though admittedly "Kongo Bongo" (French) and the more recent "Jungle Kingdom" are outliers there. And while the size and shape of it have varied quite a bit, the actual contents (world themes especially) have remained near-static. Also, those differences have occurred within the same series and franchise, while here, we have a general ''Mario'' franchise island and a general ''Yoshi'' franchise island that occasionally crosses over. | | *''What about DK Island?'' - DK Island's language-of-origin was always English, though admittedly "Kongo Bongo" (French) and the more recent "Jungle Kingdom" are outliers there. And while the size and shape of it have varied quite a bit, the actual contents (world themes especially) have remained near-static. Also, those differences have occurred within the same series and franchise, while here, we have a general ''Mario'' franchise island and a general ''Yoshi'' franchise island that occasionally crosses over. |
| *''English wiki!'' - Been there, done that. People of different languages use this site too, I've seen the site mentioned on ''Japanese forums'' (in kana) that they use it too. We should look from a worldwide perspective, not an Anglocentric one. | | *''English wiki!'' - Been there, done that. People of different languages use this site too, I've seen the site mentioned on ''Japanese forums'' (in kana) that they use it too. We should look from a worldwide perspective, not an Anglocentric one. |
| *''Our readers expect this!'' - This is a more recent and rather disturbing one. While it appeals to the reader base, the problem is most who use it have been regular editors for pretty much the entire time they've been on the site. I was a no-account-no-edit reader for near a decade before joining, and the merge here ''always'' bothered me even before I knew about the JP name thing, and most of the offsite people I've spoken with about these matters are more in-line with what I've said than what this alleged "this is what they expect" thing. And regardless, our job is not to cater to what these unheard masses are allegedly "expecting," but what the actual stated facts are. Ultimately, what it seems this boils down to is "I don't want it changed, even though the official word indicates it should, because it aligns with my headcanon/is easier for ''me''/I just don't want it changed because [static noise]/THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" <small>Addendum: I want to thank Somethingone below for the phrase "editorial inertia," I'll have to remember that one.</small> | | *''Our readers expect this!'' - This is a more recent and rather disturbing one. While it appeals to the reader base, the problem is most who use it have been regular editors for pretty much the entire time they've been on the site. I was a no-account-no-edit reader for near a decade before joining, and the merge here ''always'' bothered me even before I knew about the JP name thing, and most of the offsite people I've spoken with about these matters are more in-line with what I've said than what this alleged "this is what they expect" thing. And regardless, our job is not to cater to what these unheard masses are allegedly "expecting," but what the actual stated facts are. Ultimately, what it seems this boils down to is "I don't want it changed, even though the official word indicates it should, because it aligns with my headcanon/is easier for ''me''/I just don't want it changed because [static noise]." |
| *''This is simpler! Too much splitting makes it harder to find this.'' - And it would be even simpler to merge the ''Smash'' stages, playing boards, and race track here, but it seems no one wants to do that. You can't really split the ''same'' things without also splitting the ''different'' things, that's having your cake and eating it too and reads super awkward. | | *''This is simpler! Too much splitting makes it harder to find this.'' - And it would be even simpler to merge the ''Smash'' stages, playing boards, and race track here, but it seems no one wants to do that. You can't really split the ''same'' things without also splitting the ''different'' things, that's having your cake and eating it too and reads super awkward. |
| *''Partners in Time's island had SMW2 music!'' - As did Lavalava Island, and it's not merged. | | *''Partners in Time's island had SMW2 music!'' - As did Lavalava Island, and it's not merged. |
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| Addendum/clarification: As stated in the above section, the titles would be '''Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)''' and '''Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)''' due to that being the main divisor, occasional crossing over notwithstanding.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> |
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| #{{User|Blinker}} - Per proposal. | | #{{User|Blinker}} - Per proposal. |
| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal | | #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal |
| #{{User|PopeLuigi}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Yo'ster}} Mild support - Though I feel the proposal as written has a couple of errors and is missing some clarifications, which lead to major misunderstandings in the comments below. As such, I've written a longer statement explaining my vote, [[User:Yo'ster/Statement_on_Yoshi's_Island_(Mario_franchise)_and_Yoshi's_Island_(Yoshi_franchise)_split|which you can read here]]. I recommend everyone to read over this before voting, and for people who have already voted to reconsider your vote with this information in mind. With that said, even though I'd prefer a split, I think the article (as of this edit) is fine as is, as long as it specifies that the islands are different (it did not, for the most part, before this proposal was brought up).
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} It is what it is.
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| #{{User|Arend}} Per all, including Yo'ster.
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| #{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all, they're very clearly separate locations in Japanese and Smash Wii U ''explicitly'' refers to them as separate islands. There's no reason to keep them merged into a single article when they're very clearly distinct locations in Japanese. To quote my piece from the discussion section above: ''"The point I'm making is that there's far more evidence they're separate locations than there is that they're intended to be the same place. Separate Japanese names, separate looks, referred to as two different places; the only thing really linking the two as potentially being the same location is the shared English name. Let me put it this way: If the Super Mario World location was still called "Yoster Island" in English, would you still think they should share a single page?"''
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| #{{user|Blhte}} per.
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| #{{user|Metalex123}} Per all.
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| ====Oppose==== | | ====Oppose==== |
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| #{{User|Mario}} The lengthy talk page discussion above isn't inspiring me much confidence to split and I believe this is another case where a split based solely on Japanese script in three games out of plenty of other games (whose appearances all contradict with each other due to the noncanonicty nature of the series where locations adapt to fit gameplay constructs rather than the other way around), and it would serve to needlessly complicate rather than clarify. I don't think the Luigi's Mansions should be merged but that's another discussion. | | #{{User|Mario}} The lengthy talk page discussion above isn't inspiring me much confidence to split and I believe this is another case where a split based solely on Japanese script in three games out of plenty of other games (whose appearances all contradict with each other due to the noncanonicty nature of the series where locations adapt to fit gameplay constructs rather than the other way around), and it would serve to needlessly complicate rather than clarify. I don't think the Luigi's Mansions should be merged but that's another discussion. |
| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per the opposition in the above discussion. | | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per the opposition in the above discussion. |
| #{{User|Scrooge200}} I don't think ''SMRPG'' is really valid here; that game had a ''lot'' of localization errors and weirdness. I agree with Ray Trace, the piping issues and especially ''Partners in Time'' (among others games) consistently calling it Yoshi's Island.
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| #{{User|Swallow}} Per all, and I'm seriously not in the mood to be questioned or dragged into a debate over this.
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} Per all, especially Mario in the comments.
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| #{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Ray Trace (even the bit about being down to start fully merging these).
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per Ray Trace, Mario and Scrooge200.
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| #{{user|7feetunder}} Per my comments in the above discussion. ''Mario Golf'' YI is barely ''Yoshi''-themed at all, it's a generic tropical jungle area with Donkey Kong noises as ambience, just with giant ''YS'' fruits to loosely tie it to Yoshi (and oranges, which aren't associated with Yoshi at all). ''Partners in Time'' YI is an obvious hodgepodge. The "consistency" of the distinction between the two is oversold. ''Super Smash "Kaptain K. Rool is K. Rool's Brother"'' is not the gospel. The evidence just isn't strong enough for me. I don't find "a few unspecified randos I talked to agree with me" compelling either, especially since it comes loaded with the implicit statement that you think all casual readers think this way and feel this way. I never saw "Yo'ster Isle" as a distinct entity, just another portrayal of the island.
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| #{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all.
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} I considered supporting the split but changed my mind after looking into Melee where the Japanese stage select has "Yoshi Island" as the greater location of "Yo'ster Island". Compared with Yoshi's Japanese SSB4 trophy, I don't see anything that would make these two pieces of evidence contradict each other. Adding to that, this doesn't cover cases like Super Mario Party where Yoshi's Island is only mentioned in English material so there's no way to tell which it is in Japanese. A split would only complicate that. Per all.
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| #{{User|Shadic 34}} Per all. I find the splitting of both supposed islands to be very unnecessary, even if "Yo'ster Island" and "Yoshi's Island" are different in Japanese material, I don't think it's outlandish to just talk about both of them in the same article. Also, the "two islands" thing isn't even THAT consistent in Japanese material, as [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/ Yoshi's bio on the Mario Portal] just lists "Yoshi's Island" and doesn't mention "Yo'ster Island" at all.
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| #{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all.
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| #{{User|RealStuffMister}} per all.
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| ====Comments==== | | ====Comments==== |
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| And that would be inconsistent with how we treat other stages, boards, and tracks in the Greater ''Mario'' Series ([[Bowser's Castle|cough cough]]). {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:02, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | | And that would be inconsistent with how we treat other stages, boards, and tracks in the Greater ''Mario'' Series ([[Bowser's Castle|cough cough]]). {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:02, April 17, 2023 (EDT) |
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| '''@Mario''' "whose appearances all contradict with each other" - take a close look at the appearances listed under "Yoshi's Island". The themes they share are relatively consistent. Vivid colors, multi-biome, rounded, goal rings, based on SMW2, loads of smiling symbols, baby bowser, Kamek as a boss, children's book art style, infants to carry, loads of Shy Guys, watermelons etc, etc. None of those appear in the appearances labeled under "Yo'ster Island" in this proposal. Of course each iteration won't be exactly completely 100% the same with each other. That's why we are looking at themes, not specifics. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:17, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | | '''@Mario''' "whose appearances all contradict with each other" - take a close look at the appearances listed under "Yoshi's Island". The themes they share are relatively consistent. Vivid colors, multi-biome, rounded, same franchise, loads of smiling symbols, baby bowser, Kamek as a boss, children's book art style, infants to carry, loads of Shy Guys, watermelons etc, etc. None of those appear in the appearances labeled under "Yo'ster Island" in this proposal. Of course each iteration won't be exactly completely 100% the same with each other. That's why we are looking at themes, not specifics. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:17, April 17, 2023 (EDT) |
| :My interpretation is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless Super Mario World incarnation (which neither the SMRPG or Partners in Time resemble very well either, not even thematically, except the island theme in the basic sense; these are proposed to be in the same page) and expanded on it for the prequel. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:31, April 17, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Except the only aesthetic similarities between the SMW "Yoshi's Island" and the SMW2 "Yoshi's Island" is that there is green grass and a few round mountains (which are not the same color, have eyes, and are actually hills in SMW) on the world map. But how about thinking of this the other way, then? We're not separating these two just to separate them by name (you could very easily make the SMRPG and PIT incarnations their own pages, mind you), we're separating "SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island" from "Not SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island". This is because the SMW2 theming has largely stuck as what Nintendo uses for Yoshi's Island, and because the listed "Yo'ster Island" appearances are treated as "Yo'ster Island" in Japan. Plus, '''''We have a source in-game officially listing them as separate things.''''' We don't have any sources saying something along the lines of "Hey you know Yoshi's Island from SMW? Well it's actually the same location as the one seen in the Yoshi's Island series!". Consistent thematic, aesthetic, and enemy design + consistently different name in Language of Origin + an in-game source listing then as separate things with none saying otherwise = separate entity. The math is not hard. (And why exactly do you not want the Luigi's Manshion courses to be merged but want this to ''stay'' merged? Editorial inertia?) {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:54, April 17, 2023 (EDT)
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| :: "they probably took the name" That's the thing, though; they didn't. They're called {{hover|ヨースター島|Yoster Tou}} (SMW) and {{hover|ヨッシーアイランド|Yoshi Island}} (YI) respectively in in Japanese, which are not similar names at all. Same thing with @Ray Trace who said "the Partners in Time [island] which has the same name". It literally does not, that's the whole issue. There's no indication they're supposed to be the same other than the English localization and the vague idea of Yoshis living there. It seems like you guys are already biased towards the assumption they're the same just from playing the English versions first. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 06:42, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :I'd moreso like to know exactly was meant by "the noncanonicty nature of the series" since that phrase can be taken the wrong way (I was going to add something to the effect of "dismissing sources on factors like purported obscurity seems like a degree away from making canon judgments" during one of my last proposals). Either way, if this proposal fails, would it be unreasonable to go into more detail in the introduction as to reasons why it may not necessarily always be intended as the same location? We already do a similar thing with subjects like Missile/Bull's-Eye Bill and Grinder/Ukiki. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:18, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| '''@Scrooge''' Again, "It is named the same" does not mean "It is considered the same". Remember, we're not talking about an enemy or an object or a character or whatever, we're talking about a ''location'' here. And we tend to split locations on a game-by-game basis way more often than not. We have [[Dry Dry Desert (Paper Mario)|Dry Dry Desert]] split from [[GCN Dry Dry Desert|Dry Dry Desert]], we have [[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey)|Mushroom Kingdom]] split from [[Mushroom Kingdom]] and [[Mushroom Kingdom (disambiguation)|more]], we have [[Mt. Lavalava|Mt. Lavalava]] split from [[Mt. Lava Lava|Mt. Lavalava]], we have nearly every instance of [[Luigi's Mansion (disambiguation)|Luigi's Mansion]] ''and'' [[Bowser's Castle (disambiguation)|Bowser's Castle]] split, We split [[Donkey Kong Island (world)|Donkey Kong Island]] from [[Donkey Kong Island]], we split [[Peach's Castle (world)|Peach's Castle]] from [[Peach's Castle]], etc, etc. Why is it so easy for us to split instances of the same location appearing in different games, but when it comes to splitting the two aesthetically and nomenclature distinct "Yoshi's Islands" concepts (Which, again, ''has at least one official in-game source listing them separately and none saying otherwise'' via Smash 4), there's suddenly all this contention? Is it inertia? Because I feel like it's inertia at this point. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 06:59, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| :From a gameplay perspective these splits make more sense being discernible levels in a game and would otherwise clutter their overview pages (such as the level in Odyssey). Here, this split is based only on a naming scheme that, from the discussion above, isn't committed at all with very shaky spotty evidence in support while tons of other sources don't even bother. Aesthetic similarities are far and few inbetween and over emphasized imo, with overreliance on general theming to wallpaper over significant inconsistencies. Dry Dry Desert was clearly split on a gameplay perspective; otherwise it is a case where I wonder what the arguments even are for leaving split due to Japanese names being shared across four very different iterations (Kalamari Desert, Drybake Desert, why aren't these merged into Dry Dry Desert). Yoshi's Island is treated like a greater general location in the way Mushroom Kingdom and Peach's Castle but sometimes scaled down for a course like a Mario Kart track or Smash Bros level, hence these seemingly arbitrary patterns. This proposed split is not consistent with how we organize these pages. Maybe there is a point in having the Island in World having its own page as a proposed proto Yoshi's Island, but that the split is going to have content on Partners in Time and Super Mario RPG, as well as the argument they could be split further, makes me lean heavily to oppose. I'm not going to engage very much further, you can have the last word. {{User:Mario/sig}} 11:05, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::"''very shaky spotty evidence in support while tons of other sources don't even bother''" You're arguing against the IP's own managers here. The Japanese in-game naming schemes are right there, plain as day. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:42, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Okay firstly, I do not like your attempt to discourage me from responding by framing this as me "having the last word", as if this was a battle of wits where one person wants superiority over another and not a debate on a topic with people from different viewpoints arguing until they reach a conclusion. If you want to stop responding, just say you agree to disagree.
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| ::But regardless I do not find your points very convincing. Why must the "gameplay" of an instance be the determiner of page splitting? Locations can appear in multiple games with multiple different genres and varying levels of statistics we need to cover, and not all of them end up split; take [[Bowser's Castle#Paper Mario|The Paper Mario instance]] of Bowser's Castle, for instance, and look at the amount things we have there. We don't split it from the main article in spite of that. (And from a wiki-meta perspective, your example of the Mushroom Kingdom in Odyssey isn't helpful at the moment either. We can't exactly merge it to the main Mushroom Kingdom article in the state it's currently in; It's formatted [[Mushroom Kingdom|way too listy]] for any core "specific instance information" to be written up, and really needs to be completely rewritten.) Wether or not we split a location is down to a case-by-case basis, and in this case I (and several others) believe the SMW2 Yoshi's Island is distinct and separated enough from the other "Yoshi's Island" appearances to be its own thing, based on all the context we have so far. It's not even shown to be connected to Dinosaur Land anywhere outside of SMW.
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| ::As for the "significant inconsistencies" thing in the aesthetics, the only thing I can interpret from this is the specific details and actual schematics of the iterations themselves. When I bring up "theme", I am referring to a broader sense of how the collective of those specific details look in the big picture (graphics, artstyle, characters, etc), not necessarily the nitty-gritty of what goes on there. And this is because of course the locations will change a bit with each iteration, that's the only way they can make games "fun", otherwise you would just be playing the same thing over and over. But the appearances listed in this proposal as "Yoshi's Island" still feel way too similar thematically to feel like a separate location. The three big instances that would be split from the Yoshi's Island location (SMW, SMRPG, and PIT) do not share this trait; does the "Yoster Island" in SMRPG really look, feel, or act like the "Yoshi's Island" from SMW2?
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| ::As for Dry Dry Desert and your "I wonder what the arguments even are for leaving split due to Japanese names being shared across four very different iterations", you need to look closely as to ''what'' they actually are to understand why I specified it; as in, you need to realize that the five (M&W) "Dry Dry Desert"s in Japanese (or if you want an "English" argument, just the two also named as such in English) have nothing in common beyond being deserts. They don't share any non-generic elements that would otherwise indicate they are the same thing, and they come from completely different times and franchises. This is all to say that just because two or more locations share a name across multiple languages does not make them the same location. If you want another example, there's the two [[GCN Sherbet Land|Sherbet]] [[N64 Sherbet Land|Lands]], which both appear in the same franchise.
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| ::Lastly, regarding you statement on "very shaky spotty evidence in support while tons of other sources don't even bother"...I feel like you're missing the point. They are all in-game statements, which is the most direct high-rank sources we have on our wiki [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|based on our hierarchy policy]]. Yes, most of the time, a game in the Greater Mario Franchise™ won't bother to rectify a lore confusion based on a redesign and/or a different rename; they are usually meant to be light-hearted, couch co-op styled games with a simple & sweet storyline and probably were not focusing on it. It's the fact that there ''WAS'' a time that they bothered to rectify the Yoshi's/Yo'ster Island confusion in Smash 4, and the fact that what they bothered to say was "the locations are separate things", that is important here. Because it gives us a critical in-game clue as to what their true relationship is that other material failed to address; your main argument to this seems to hinge on "didn't bother to address" implying "they probably would've said they are the same". I can very easily turn this around and say "they probably would've said they are different islands, ''given that there was a source that said this before.''" Or if you really want to be direct, a "didn't bother" really means "they probably weren't thinking about it at that specific moment". Honestly, if it weren't for the in-game source, I'd be a bit iffy on voting to support, but the fact that there was an instance of an in-game source listing them as separate locations (and again, none saying otherwise) alleviates a considerable bit of doubt from this issue. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:05, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| @Swallow, "''I'm seriously not in the mood to be questioned or dragged into a debate over this.''" It is bad practice to vote and then disavow the responsibility to argue your position, because all it comes across as is a knee-jerk reaction. If your whole rationale is "this change is bad because I say so/I'm not in the mood to try to sway anyone on this", you should probably abstain from voting. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:42, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| :His rationale likely just echoes the other opposition and he's aware he's not going to budge anyone nor is he convinced. It's just a per all vote but with added weariness to it. I believe there is a very core fundamental disagreement on how this wiki should be organized, for years. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:47, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::That doesn't really justify the attitude, especially since it's not the first time I've seen him express sentiments like that. The vote could have easily just ended at "per all"; no one is going to drag him into a fifteen-comment-long argument over a "per all" vote. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 22:56, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::Yeah I'm going to have to step in here before it escalates: please keep a cool head especially in disagreements. For both sides: there's no need to get in arguments about tone over how we should deal with this article. If you don't want to engage, just drop a vote and leave, you're not required to respond to comments or leave a snippy comment about the discourse. Also, votes carry the same weight whether it's two letters or two paragraphs, don't suggest anyone to abstain from voting please. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 00:48, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::This was already settled between Swallow and KcC on a user talk page, calm down everyone. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
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| @Scrooge: While I wholeheartedly agree that SMRPG's localization is very inconsistent with the rest of the franchise, SMRPG's Yo'ster Isle being called as such in English is ''not'' the reason why it's grouped with the Yoshi's Islands from SMW or Melee; it's regarding the ''original Japanese name''. Even if Super Mario RPG's localization was actually consistent with the rest of the franchise, and Yo'ster Isle was called Yoshi's Island in English, the Japanese name would still be "Yo'ster Island", just like with the SMW and Melee iterations. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:35, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
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| '''@7feetunder''' The "few unspecified randos" isn't an argument for this, it's a rebuttal to the "this is what our readers expect ùwú" that I've been seeing recently as a "no, you can't pigeonhole that." As for the K. Rool thing, that was a clear mistake contradicting literally everything else, this contradicts nothing (not even the localization, different places can have the same name). Plus, this was in the era of updates that can remove errors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Like I stated in my comment in the discussion above, as far as I can tell, the only two mistakes in Smash that weren't a result of a mistranslation were the K. Rool's brother thing in Brawl and Count Canoli stated to be from the Wario Land series in Ultimate. That's two mistakes compared to the 99% of information in the Smash series that is accurate. And 100% accurate (again, AFAIK) in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description. Same with their stages since Brawl. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd believe the two islands are the same if I was a Japanese fan. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 05:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::"''in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description.''" Just to clarify, is that something in the Japanese versions of the games? I took a cursory look at our trophy pages, and the English scripts seem to use the umbrella term "Yoshi's Island", unless I need an eye check. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:05, April 21, 2023 (EDT)~
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| :::Yes, you are correct. See BubbleRevolution's comment at 18:44, December 13, 2021 (EST) in the discussion above. It was also mentioned in the opening paragraph of the propsal. Edit: You can see it for yourself here: https://youtu.be/Kjy7Gd4cjrM?t=418 It's the same in the 3DS version, which makes it even less likely that it's a mistake, now that I think about it. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 06:15, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| '''@"Oppose" voters''' I honestly do not understand the logic with merging these but not Lavalava Island, Craft Island, etc. At that point you might as well just merge every single islands were Yoshis live at this point. I'm open to changing my mind, so can someone against the split please explain your point of view regarding this? The only argument you seem to have is basically "they have the same name in English lol". [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 05:32, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :something something "our readers come here for this", something something "there's uhm uuh there's one isolated reference to the game yoshi's island, ''clearly'' they must be the same island (even though you could make the same argument for the literal yoshis living there)" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 05:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::The two were made squarely after Yoshi's Island established itself. They're considered separate locations with little doubt about their names in several languages, unlike Yoshter where there is a conflict of naming schemes (especially in Smash Bros. that has two stages called "Yoshi's Island"), but also very notable in Partners in Time), on top of the very similar names, on top of the already-inconsistent portrayals of Yoshi's Island. [[Egg Island]] is Yoshi's Island all but in name but we have a page on it because of both the naming scheme ''and'' that the game it's in calls it a "second home" for the Yoshis. Maybe future games will mistakenly refer to Egg Island as Yoshi's Island because Egg Island has zero reason to be called such except probably coincide with the ''Yoshi's New Island'' game name, which would just make everyone even more confused, but until then it's called as such across all languages and called a "second home" and so we anticipate a page on it. I mean if Egg Island gets a page without a doubt I don't think it's unreasonable to make pages for Lavalava Island or Craft Island (the latter being also basically Yoshi's Island but having unambiguously a different name and probably to coincide with the game's themes) and maybe just refer to them because they're so similar to Yoshi's Island that the casual reader might think they're Yoshi's Island. Lavalava Island is not the best example to bring up either IMO; the location isn't significantly stand-out in its use of Yoshi's Island elements barring Yoshi residents and Lava Piranha Plant; the entire game already borrows from Yoshi's Island from enemies like Lantern Ghosts, Bandits, Bumpties, Crayzee Dayzees, and Little Mousers and even referencing several enemy designs including Boo, Goomba, and the Paratroopas. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::Lavalava also has Ravens, Spear Guys, (Putrid) Piranha Plants with a similar stance to those in Yoshi's Island. Also, while Paper Mario does borrow a lot from Yoshi's Island, saying that in comparison to Partners in Time seems weird, considering that game's focus on the baby characters in the past. Though now that I'm looking, it seems to only use two enemies from ''Yoshi's Island'', Boo Guy and Fly Guy... neither of which appear on the island. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::It can be hard to keep track of this discussion (which is also why I didn't see your response until now) so I don't blame you if you missed it, so I'll say again that the names are not "very similar", but I kinda get why you'd think that especially since you keep calling it "Yoshter" (there's no H). That implies that they just swapped out "ter" for "i", but this isn't the case. They have completely different names - "Yōsutā Tō" (pronounced like Yo-Sta Toh) vs. "Yosshī Airando". Like I said under my "Support" vote: "Not similar at all besides starting with ヨ (Yo), and they don't use the same word for "Island" either." Anyway, as for your comment in general, look at it this way: Aside from the names in the English localizations, is there anything to suggest that they should be grouped together that doesn't also apply to the other "Yoshi islands"? [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 20:23, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| I also find it weird that most of the opposition basically boil down to "they still have the same name in English", when it's the exact same predicament as [[Piranha Plant (Pit of 100 Trials)]], which was split from [[Piranha Plant]] ''purely'' due to its Japanese name being different (it looks otherwise identical to any Piranha Plant). I'm not sure why that's allowed to be split, but this isn't. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:43, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :I really feel like it's just editorial inertia, at least partially, considering how things such as "piping issues" was brought up (which doesn't make sense since [[User:PorpleBot|PorpleBot]] exists and has been used for several big changes before). Can anyone from the opposition provide evidence that they are the same? I haven't seen any beyond a shared English name (which I already provided several examples on for how it's not a good indicator of identity). {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 10:38, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::i cant elaborate currently but re paper mario, it's because of pale pirahna and the tattle log. It's a real snag {{User:Mario/sig}} 11:28, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::Elaborating: the Piranha Plant situation in Thousand-Year Door is an anomaly of English localization. The Pit of 100 Trials enemy in the Tattle Log says "''It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled!''" and every other localization coined a unique name for the thing. On top of this, Pale Piranha adds to the confusion, where English localization deems it as a "new" enemy but the Tattle Log is ambiguous about its identity ("'' That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants''") while every other language makes it more clear that it's just a normal Piranha Plant that's faded (so I ask rhetorically, where does that leave the Pit of 100 Trials plant??). While I believe Pale Piranha should just have its own page, I do think this is the case where English localization messed up and dealt us a bad hand, so I'm not opposed to the current setup of Pale Piranha merged in Piranha Plant either. See [[Talk:Pale Piranha]]; it's a contentious gray zone... a zone as gray as that Piranha Plant, the votes there are also quite divided on the merge. As I said, Japanese names CAN add clarity to a situation, and this is the one example I had in mind when I said that, but it cannot be relied on its own, it has to be supported by additional evidence as well as evidence of flaws in English localization. This is why I don't support splitting this on Japanese names but splitting the Pit of 100 Trials Piranha Plant on the Japanese names. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:41, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| '''@[[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]]''' Sadly, that just brings more questions than answers. If Yo'ster Island is part of Yoshi's Island, does that mean Dinosaur Land is part of Yoshi's Island too? Or is Yoshi's Island part of Dinosaur Land? And how is Yo'ster Island supposed to be also part of a bigger island judging from its layout in any of the games? Also, why would the SSB4 trophy mention both islands and not just the greater location of Yoshi's Island? I'd love for it to be the case that both interpretations are correct, but it doesn't make much sense to me and contradicts pretty much everything else despite what you said, unless I'm misunderstanding something. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 11:38, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Considering that Dinosaur Land isn't even close to the vicinity of YI's Yoshi's Island (as it is nowhere to be seen on the title screen), I'm really not sure to believe that Yo'ster Island is supposed to be a small part of Yoshi's Island (or in turn, if Yoshi's Island either is a small part of Dinosaur Land, or even ''is'' Dinosaur Land). Considering that "greater locations" were opted out from stages in later Smash titles, I'm more inclined to believe that this is either a flub or a "series generalization" (as the Melee stage is regarded as a Yoshi series stage despite obviously being based on a Super Mario World location). For example, both Mute City and Big Blue's greater location is "F-Zero Grand Prix", which is not a location, but an event; as both courses take place on different planets. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:24, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Plus, that may actually be greater cause for a split instead, given that the wiki hardly merges "greater" locations with "lesser" ones. If you look at [https://themushroomkingdom.net/ssbm_j2e.shtml#stages this], every other ''Mario''-related greater location is indeed its own article. And this explains perfectly why the equivalent English text goes with the incredibly awkward "Yoshi's Island ''Yoshi's Island''" when no other stage repeats itself. The impression I get is “localizer plugged official translations in processor and editor didn't notice how strange it looked in-game” rather than a deliberate attempt at making them the same location in and of itself, which would've been better conveyed had it been formatted like the Mushroom Kingdom and Mushroom Kingdom II stages. All it proves is that they have the same English name currently, which we're already aware of? There are real-world places like that, like [[Manhattan|NY]], [[New York|NY]]. (As for ''why'' Yoshi's Island is part of Yoshi's Island, I'm not too sure - I wonder if someone thought "Yoshi Island" was synonymous with "Dinosaur Land" or if they needed something to pair with the Yoshi's Story stage - but the fact remains.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:25, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::'''@Yo'ster @Arend''' We're talking about the franchise where this island connected to a southern archipelago became the immediate western neighbor of Mushroom Kingdom. If every geographical question and contradiction has to be found an answer for, none will be.
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| ::'''@LTL''' How many places in Mario series share their English name with their greater locale though? And how many places does this wiki have merged or split despite the Japanese name criteria? If that's the highest and most concrete link there can be (especially compared to using geography), what's stopping people from trying to merge [[Forest of Illusion]] and [[Forever Forest]] aka Mayoi no Mori? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 12:52, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::"Mayoi no Mori" is actually an ''incredibly'' common generic description in Japanese media iirc, comparable to [[Dry Dry Desert|Karakara Sabaku]], so I wouldn't put too much stock in it myself. As for your first question, see [[Smithy Factory (world)]] for an example. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:57, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::Not least of which would be the [[Toad Town#Names in other languages|situation]] with [[Toad Town#Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|the ''Super Mario RPG'' equivalent of Toad Town]], or you can count {{world-link|8|bowser3|World 8-Bowser's Castle (Super Mario Bros. 3)}} in several releases of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' for the earliest instance. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:55, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::::That's the point I was making, bring up some other place(s) for splitting/merging/moving using Japanese naming and there come the rationalizations why it doesn't sound like a strong reason to. At least Mayoi no Mori is used as a name in like two games, Karakara Sabaku is instead caught in policy bureucracy. Also Smithy Factory is a bad example since 1) SMRPG doesn't use an in-game system for naming locations and 2) it's a name from a strategy guide. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:54, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::::My point was that Yoster Isle being part of Yoshi Island makes no sense and contradicts every other appearance of both islands (Yoster Isle never appears in a Yoshi game, Yoshi Island is never seen in SMW or PiT, etc), and also doesn't mean they're the same place or should share an article as LTL said. I don't think I understand your argument. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 17:03, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| (''I started this in response to KCC's comment just above but this turned into more of a general point, and it's not exclusively aimed at him'') I was initially going to add a longer reason for my oppose vote but this attitude from some people on the support side (and the proposal itself) is exactly what switched me off from doing so, and I'd imagine plenty of other people on the oppose side are in the same boat. There's no need to be so condescending about this, especially considering it's a trivial thing which basically boils down to each voter's opinion whether the two being different in the Japanese version should matter to us or not.
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| You've made plenty of arguments why you think it should be changed based on opinion, but none of these seem to correspond to any Wiki policies? It definitely doesn't correspond to [[MarioWiki:Naming|the naming policy]]. The first line of the naming policy indicates "the most commonly used English name" should be used and - outside of people in this discussion - does ''anyone'' use the term "Yo'ster Island" (barring ''Mario RPG'') to describe the island in any of these games? This is one of those things that's impossible to prove definitively but from a simple search for the term on Twitter, the only place it shows up is in regard to ''RPG'' - and from being in this community for a number of years I've never heard this term used in this way outside of this proposal.
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| Also, as far as I can tell, in the English version, this island is only called "Yo'ster Island" in ''Mario RPG'' - so where's the evidence this title applies to any of the other games that are listed? If anything, grouping them all together as "Yo'ster Island", using a one-time title from a decades-old spinoff, is way more fanfiction-y than claiming the two islands are the same (which equally I'm not sure anyone is doing?). If you're basing the general title off the translation of the Japanese term, then should we retitle every article that debuted in a Japanese game to a translation of its Japanese name? i.e. Bowser to "Koopa", Birdo to "Catherine"?
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| The worldwide argument is understandable in some cases, but this is specifically the English language Mario Wiki and should - besides content not released in English - most accurately reflect the English language version of the games. We accommodate for non-English users (i.e. by including names in other languages in articles) but assigning such a level of importance to whichever language each game was first released in has a lot of potential to confuse things, especially seeing as release dates in different countries are now much closer together.
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| As to why other articles are split - ''Mario Kart'' and ''Smash Bros.'' courses/stages are split as these articles focus on the mechanics/obstacles of the stage itself, rather than the lore surrounding the location. The Piranha Plant in TTYD... I don't know! But looking at the TPP from 8 years ago it seems like the main reason that was kept split was the Tattle being different from the Piranha Plants located elsewhere in the game.
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| I'm especially confused as to why a ''Smash Bros.'' trophy is being used as the smoking gun here, considering we're currently in the middle of drastically reducing our ''Smash Bros'' coverage, these trophies can contain mistakes (in the English version at least, no idea how I'd even check the Japanese version to cross-reference), and we don't know who's even writing this and what they're basing their information on.
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| I also don't want to be dragged into anything as a result of this because this is a fairly trivial thing, just wanted to clarify my vote because I'm getting a bit tired of being grouped into certain comments as an oppose voter. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 13:55, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Apologies if I came off as condescending, it wasn't my intent. I understand your position, however I think you missed the point of the proposal. No one wants to make a "Yo'ster Island" article; if that were the case, I'd agree with you, but the proposal was specifically to split them between '''Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)''' and '''Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)''' (Doc von Schmeltwick's probably should've mentioned that at the start instead of only mentioning it in an addendum, but oh well). This is because they are literally two different locations who were given the same name in the English localizations. I'm not gonna go into the arguments again as you can read them above, but the short version is that in addition to them not having the same name, they also have little to do with each other besides being islands where Yoshis live.
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| :If you still disagree with the proposal even after taking that into account, that's okay too. If your idea is that the articles should stay merged because that's what English speakers know them as, despite being different locations, I still disagree but it's at least more understandable. Though if it stays merged, I feel it should at least be noted that they are indeed different islands with different names in Japanese. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 14:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Thanks for clarifying that, if it does pass then calling both "Yoshi's Island" definitely makes more sense. Also I hadn't noticed anything you'd said in particular, so no worries. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 14:37, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :@Mr Concrete Donkey: You took the policy out of context and applied it to something unrelated. Very convenient for the point you are trying to make, but disingenuous all the same.<br>The policy you quoted concerns subject names, '''''and nothing more'''''. I don't see it making a single case for using that specific aspect as a thrust for the wiki's organisation (that obviously shouldn't even be in the policy's scope). Perhaps you can show me where it does? Anyhow, two completely unrelated things can have the same name in English, like [[Boomer (Donkey Kong Country 3)|Boomer]] and [[Boomer (Super Paper Mario)|Boomer]]; for the same reasons you invoked earlier, would you say these warrant being merged?<br>I'm certain you would think of course not! Those characters have nothing in common, from species, to appearance, to even the context they are found in. So here's the real kicker: based on much the same criteria, Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island aren't the same place either. They are both inhabited by Yoshis, and both have the same English name, but that's where the similarities end. Nevermind the different appearance and context: they are indicated as being separate by all lang-of-origin sources, including the games themselves, and I'd be hard pressed to think these, of all conceivable media and authorities on the matter, weren't overseen by whatever entity at Nintendo keeps the brand and its constituent elements in check. I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"{{'}}s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from ''Super Mario World''{{'}}s original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market; regardless of whether or not this actually happened, the fact remains firm that the very people who created the games made a conscious decision to tie this place to the SMW Yoshi's Island, and that those who created the original ''Yoshi's Island'' game ostensibly didn't have an intention of expanding the first world of SMW into an entire game setting, if, again, the lang-of-origin name is anything to go by.<br>"''But we're English!!! Our readers!!!!!1!!1!''"<br>Anyone who still uses this argument needs to understand that it's a facet of a {{wp|Argumentum ad populum|well-known rhetorical fallacy}}. The wiki has chosen English as its lingua franca, because it had to choose one and it was (likely) most handy for the founder to use. That's all there is to it. This shouldn't by any means be an excuse to distort the authorial intent and developments of this wiki's relevant constructs, for at the end of the day the site's mission statement as an online encyclopedia is (or should be) accuracy, thoroughness, and reliability. Besides, as it's been posed a few times before: if these two incarnations of "Yoshi's home island" had altogether different names in English as they do in Japanese, would this discussion even take place? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::"''I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"'s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from Super Mario World's original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market''" Pretty sure that's literally what it is. Same reason it's called "Yoshi's Island" in Smash, and every other English game besides Super Mario RPG. But yeah, the best argument I can see for "Oppose" at this point is "They're different places, but it's easier for English speakers to keep them merged", which seems inconsistent with the rest of the wiki as you pointed out. Though with your specific example, it could be argued that the Yoshi islands are still a lot more similar than the Boomers, but again that just goes back to, "are we going to merge everything that's slightly similar, by that logic Lavalava Island etc...". It's all arbitrary and up to discretion on where to draw the line. However, I feel the most important thing should probably be consistency, which is why I tend to agree with you on this matter. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::The Boomers were chosen simply to make a point that [[MarioWiki:Naming]] doesn't have jurisdiction over the merging or splitting of subjects, even when they share a name. I guess a more similar analogy to the two Yoshi's Islands would be [[Spiny]] and [[Spiny (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)]], since conceptually they can be seen as pretty much the same thing. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:20, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::Yeah, I getcha. I was basically just playing devil's advocate as I assumed someone would probably respond to you and say that. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:23, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| Apologies in advance if this is uncouth, but I'd like to go into more detail and respond to some specific points made. If I mentioned you here, you don't need to respond, I just want to get all my thoughts out there.
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| '''@Ray Trace''' "Super Mario World 2, since they are designing the game around Yoshi, they *have* to expand on the island and give it a distinct flavor rather than a simple world that it was originally conceived as in Super Mario World)." [...] "...so I wouldn't even bring it up as a counterpoint for the Partners in Time which has the same name"<br>
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| '''@Mario''' "''My interpretation'' is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless..."<br>
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| You're working backwards from your conclusion here that the island from Yoshi's Island is definitely based on the one from Super Mario World, which is most likely not the case judging from their intended names given to them by their creators, like KOOPA CON CARNE said above. Also, you guys keep saying that it "has the same name" when it doesn't; the "same name" was added after the fact by the localization team. That's part of the whole issue. Try to look at it from a neutral point of view.
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| <s>@7feetunder ''"I never saw'' "Yo'ster Isle" as a distinct entity, just another portrayal of the island."</s><br>
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| '''@Ray Trace''' "Lavalava Island is also something ''I found'' very distinct than Yoshi's Island"<br>
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| This is irrelevant, it doesn't matter what you personally thought. If Lavalava has a similar amount of similarities to Yoshi's Island as PiT Yoshi's Island does, yet they're counted separately because they have different names, that should apply equally across the board.
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| Again, if you recognize they're different locations but just think it's better to have them in one article due to sharing an English name, that's fine, but statements like these come off as speculative and headcanon-y (for lack of a better term). Again, apologies if this comes off as rude since that's not my intent. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Given the lack of evidence for the separation (again the talk page above: and given the general chronology between World and World 2, given that some users had to dig through a ton of sources that either say little about, is ambiguous, or contradicts the subject until you found one that did); LinktheLefty did the same and had a comment that was very very inconclusive, see the comment made in 11:17, October 23, 2021 (EDT)[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=3489703&oldid=3488029][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489706][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489707]), I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation. As I said, I could see a case for the proto-Yoshi's Island from World being its own page, ''but'' this proposal is going to have an article that's split between two series all over a distinction that isn't even clear to begin with. Where is [[Yoshi's Island (board)]] going to go, with its appearance in the Mario series? It clearly alludes to the Yoshi series but what about the [[Yoshi's Island (golf course)]]? Is that going to be lumped with the Super Mario World Yoshi's Island? It's still effectively a Yo'shter island vs Yoshi's Island situation. As Mister Wu said in the above discussion, whatever distinction between these islands is blurred, but eventually lost as the brand developed, as seen in the interview with Toby Fox which Nintendo published. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:19, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::I don't think the interview helps prove anything. The writer/translator isn't the brand managing director, nor are they actually confirmed to have been in touch with someone in that position; for all we know, they just didn't care to research the topic like we do, and jotted down exactly what the interviewee said. It's not evidence that the committee has lost track of its own creation or something. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:31, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::'''@[[User:Mario|Mario]]''' I know you were probably initially confusing me with someone else but I never dug through any sources; I'm literally going off of the Japanese games alone and that's it. When taking that into account it's pretty obvious which games go where, and the distinction is very clear. Did you think they were going to be arbitrarily separated based on whichever series we personally thought it resembled more? And with the "proto-Yoshi's Island" comment, it seems you're still assuming that Yoshi's Island is somehow an evolution of "Yoster Island", of which there is no indication of besides their shared English name and Yoshis living there. If anything, Dinosaur Land as a whole is a proto-Yoshi's Island, as it has more similarities to YI than "Yoster Island" alone (not much, but still more). [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 18:09, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::'''@[[User:Koopa con Carne|Koopa con Carne]]''' Ironically, the implication of digging through sources to find something that fits a pre-concived narrative applies more to the Toby Fox interview, as that's the best evidence I've seen for them being the same or becoming burred together, besides the English names, and it's still flawed as you said. While on the other hand we have actual in-game sources explicitly saying they're ''not'' the same in addition to them having completely different names in the original language. Not saying there isn't any more evidence to the contrary, just that I haven't seen it and no one has posted it yet. Like, if Nintendo came out and clearly said they're the same after all, I would join the oppose side. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 18:09, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :You're taking my words out of context. That was a response to Doc's claim that "the merge here ''always'' bothered me even before I knew about the JP name thing", a sentiment I did not share. It's not a reason this shouldn't be split. You responding to that quote is what's irrelevant. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 20:34, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Apologies for the misunderstanding. It still applies to the general sentiment, at least. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 20:45, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| Gonna echo MrConcreteDonkey's sentiment that strawmanning has become a persistent issue with the supporters' commentary. Something something "japanese namez r diffrent", something something "smash sed so". <-- There you have it, a 100% accurate and not-at-all hideously biased summation of the supporters' thoughts. If you can do this, why shouldn't I? Answer: because it proves exactly nothing.
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| Now for my actual argument.
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| My main problem with this split is the idea that the various incarnations of Yoshi's Island fit neatly and snugly into two categories: ''Mario'' franchise YI and ''Yoshi'' franchise YI. It's all so clear and consistent, right? Not really. Again, I have to emphasize the ''Mario Golf'' course. It's Yoshi-theming is highly superficial, yet we want to file it under ''Yoshi'' franchise because the name matches and it has giant fruits. ''Smash'' making a couple mistakes doesn't make it a Dark Horse-level mockery, but there's also just the fact that it isn't a ''Mario'' game, but a mega crossover franchise with ''Mario'' content in it. I don't have a problem with using it as evidence, but treating it like a smoking gun doesn't sit well with me.
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| About the "English wiki" thing: This wasn't a part of my argument, but I feel the need to address it because it keeps getting brought up as a means to throw shade at the opposition. For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric. When merges and splits where Japanese names are relevant occur, it's usually because the English localization is faulty or inconsistent. Pale Piranha and [[Talk:Cleft#Merge Super Paper Mario Moon Cleft content here|''SPM'' Moon Cleft]], for instance, were localization oddities that arose from the bizarre way that Piranha Plants and Clefts were portrayed in ''TTYD''. In this case, however, the "Yoshi's Island" name is consistently used barring ''Super Mario RPG'', a game with rushed and inconsistent translations out the wazoo that have long since been left in the dust. Sometimes English lore simply differs from Japanese lore ([[Kamek]] being a good example of this), and that's the overall impression I get from this, especially since ''Smash'' mentioning Yoshi's Island and "Yo'ster Island" separately is a Japanese-specific detail. English localizations not distinguishing between the two isn't all that out there given the inconsistent names and portrayals of other major recurring locations, since both share the same general role of "island belonging to the Yoshis" and their portrayals aren't perfectly consistent even amongst themselves.
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| While us being an English wiki does not in and of itself dictate how we split and merge things, it ''does'' affect how we cover them. Our [[Garden Grab]] article is first and foremost an article about a minigame where the players pull carrots out of the ground. We bring up that the Japanese version has daikon radishes instead and include screenshots of it, but the focus is still on the carrots. If this were a Japanese wiki, it would ''absolutely'' be the other way around, with the focus on the radishes and a mention of them being carrots overseas. With the wiki being in English, it makes sense to cater primarily to native English-speaking countries, since anyone outside of those countries who isn't fluent in English will be relying on Google Translate. Therefore, when English and Japanese versions differ in a way that neither is definitively "wrong", it's simply pragmatic to focus on the English side of things. "This is an English wiki" not being a convincing argument by itself doesn't make the polar opposite sentiment of "us being an English wiki has zero relevance" any more accurate. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 00:01, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| :RE Garden Grab: you have glossed over the fact that this wasn’t the work of localisation. The game was developed in Japan, and Hudson/Nintendo decided or were told to replace a Japanese vegetable with something more internationally recogniseable for the overseas market; therefore, I would say the swapping of models is still the work of the creators. Besides, the wiki being English means it can and should outwardly echo English material--if Yo’ster were to be split from Yoshi’s Island, it would still be called “Yoshi’s Island” with an identifier because that’s its most recent and commonly used English name. To paraphrase what I told MrConcreteDonkey, do not conflate issues of naming and outward presentation with the intent behind these concepts.<br>RE Smash rebuttal: Quite honestly I did not see anyone seriously interpreting those trophy descriptions as decisive, but moreso being received for consideration and comparison. In that respect, I think it’s evident that they do carry much more weight than a random online interview. If you want to reduce the supporters’ rationale to a curt comment, keep in mind that it has to make sense first.<br>RE general issue of distinction: As I said above, it’s likely whoever localised PiT and Smash 3DS/WiiU in English went for the original English name of the SMW island because that’s what local markets tie what the Japanese call “Yo’ster island” to. The English Smash trophy writer either didn’t have enough space or didn’t have the fiat to add “see, Yoshi actually lives on two different islands called Yoshi’s Island” and just merged the two concepts for the sake of brevity.<br>”For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric.” You’re making stuff up. There is no sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers like you’re making it out to be. In the Construction Site Fight proposal, my arguments even reflected an altogether different sentiment, that the English naming scheme of that level should be prioritised—which is because the creators of the game that subject pertains to were British, with the manual writer likely American. I’m only for consistently applying the principle of “authorial intent”.<br>RE Yoshi’s Island golf course: And the aforementioned point finally brings me here. In the absence of any obvious physical clues that would tie the course to one island or another, IMO it’s best to turn to the Japanese name (as the game’s creators were Japanese), which staunchly ties is to the, uh, “Yoshi’s Island” Yoshi’s Island. Also, I admit I find strange how you're fixated on this one-shot level in a spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house and you think the way you identify it completely topples the plethora of arguments made in support of the proposal. Case closed. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:36, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::RE: RE Garden Grab: A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it, and your interpretation of how it happened is not something you could know for sure without word from the developers.<br>RE: RE Smash rebuttal: BubbleRevolution was the one called it a "smoking gun" when bringing it up in the pre-proposal discussion. I'm not going to sift through every comment on this page but that's the one I remember.<br>RE: RE general issue of distinction: "Likely" doesn't mean "true". We can't know without confirmation how they really feel about this topic - all we know is that English has never distinguished between the two.<br>RE I'm making stuff up: No, I'm not. This isn't like Chestnut King where it's every language ''but'' English - this proposal is built around Japanese-specific lore that was removed from not just English, but from just about every other language it seems. Also, the argument that there is a "sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers" exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that nor have I implied such a ridiculous thing, only that supporters are thinking from a Japanese perspective and not a global one. The one making stuff up here is you, not me.<br>RE: RE Yoshi's Island golf course: I find it strange that you feel the need to bring up that ''Mario Golf'' is a "spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house" when that's literally most of the franchise by now. Also, case closed? This proposal's still ongoing, and it's currently not going in the proposal's favor. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 23:21, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::"''A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it.''" I'd say it does. Mario Party 6 doesn't credit anyone from outside the main development team for the game's graphics; even if NoA were the ones to dictate that radishes be replaced with carrots during product testing, the onus was still on Hudson--the game's creators and those closely in touch with NoJ--to make the change. Conversely, a mere localisation team claims no real authorship of the product, certainly not a lot more than any given licensed guide. There ''has'' to be a hierarchy for the sources used on the wiki, because it's ridiculous to give supreme credence to Nate Bihldorff et al. when they didn't create the game. "''Also, the argument that there is a 'sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers' exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that [...]''" You accused the supporters for slanting their views solely towards the constructs of Japanese developers (let me just quote you again: "''For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric''"). This is so far from the truth that my response, apart from being obvious snark, can't be perceived as any more ridiculous. You backpedalled on your statement to claim a gotcha is what you did. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:03, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::''Mario Golf'' 64 actually takes a lot of ''Yoshi's Story'' elements, even outside of that course. In {{file link|Mariosstar.png|this}} scene art for the "Mario's Star" course, for example, we can see Cheep Cheeps and flowers with ''Story'' designs intermixed among other things from different games. As such, it seems like they chose to make yet another reference to the then-most recent game in the ''Yoshi'' sister franchise, but it ended up being left fairly vague due to the limitations and lack of gimmicks. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:40, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Funnily enough, '''[[User:7feetunder|7feetunder]]''', I agree with your strawman. That is basically our argument. However, I think that's sufficient enough to split the pages, especially when the other side just boils down to "the english names are the same." At least that's what I'd say before reading your comment. You make a great point with the differences of English and Japanese lore, for example Kamek. Honestly, I'd be fine with the pages staying merged as long as it's made clear they're two different locations in the Japanese lore. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]])
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| '''@ Koopa Con Carne''': I expressed my opinion and didn't imply the way you'd expressed yours was in bad faith, so I don't appreciate your claim I'm being "disingenuous". This is about splitting an article on a fan wiki for a video game series, what ulterior motives do you think anyone has here?
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| Firstly, you've "conveniently" ignored the discussion I had with [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] just before you'd made your comment, where he pointed out to me that the proposal is not trying to change the name to "Yo'ster Island". It's an easy mistake to make seeing as [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=3896965&oldid=3896953 the proposer seems more occupied with editing in petty comments than clarifying what he's trying to do].
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| This still doesn't provide any reason as to why the two Islands have been split into these two arbitrary lists - the only real reason for this appears to be aesthetic similarities, but the idea that the islands from these specific games are the same doesn't appear to be explicitly confirmed anywhere. The Japanese trophy description does list the two separate islands but unless part of it has been omitted the way they've been split is based entirely on speculation - which is "completely unimportant" to the Wiki according to [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]].
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| To go into the idea further, the trophy claims Yoshi assists Mario with his adventures on these islands, but Mario doesn't even appear in ''Yoshi's Story'' or ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' - plus, the latter is "supposed to take place in a kindergarten class within the Mario universe" according to the developers, so surely the argument should be to split this into three different articles?
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| Your point about the Wiki only being English because it's a lingua franca isn't correct and you only need to visit the Main Page to find out why - we are listed as the English Wiki on the [[MarioWiki:Mushroom World Encyclopedia|Mushroom World Encyclopedia]], alongside the German Mario Wiki and Italian Mario Wiki, and that we "[cover] the Mario franchise from different areas of the world". This is also reflected on both of their websites. If this site was intended to cover the series from a worldwide perspective to such an extent, we should be offering entire articles written in other languages rather than simply names to cross-reference at the bottom of articles - like Wikipedia, which I'm assuming you're thinking of with your "online encyclopedia" comment. We can't do this because a) presumably the server costs would be massive if we expanded the Wiki by that much, and b) we don't have a large enough community (international or not) to maintain this.
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| But also I agree with [[User:7feetunder|7feetunder]]'s point above that all of this talk of catering to "worldwide" audiences comes off as Japan-centric, because that's the only other language that's even been brought up in regard to this. He hasn't implied anyone's pushing "sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers" and claiming he has is a bit overdramatic. It's a Japanese-created series so some focus on that is understandable, but the idea that we have to lean towards the Japanese interpretation of things over the English interpretation doesn't appear to have any footing in our [[MarioWiki:Coverage|our coverage policy]] - and, if anything, claiming the original Japanese version is more correct/official seems to directly go against it. Again I don't edit the Wiki often and even when I did I had little experience with policy, but I think the burden of finding a policy that supports changing the way things are lies with the support side and not the opposition.
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| Either way, as a result, every proposal like this (cf. [[Prince Froggy]]) is going to end in a stalemate which is unsatisfying for both sides, because it's all essentially based on personal preference (not necessarily about canon, but more the importance of canon over simplicity) and overspeculation. As there's no clear policy reason for doing this, there's little here which is explicitly right or wrong, so this all just comes across as argument for the sake of argument. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 11:52, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| :If this is an "English wiki," why do I see it being cited on Japanese forums? Anyway, apologies for not being active with this, finals snuck up on me and the others are doing a swell job of articulating the arguments, and I prefer not to get heated myself these days. Still, I don't think it's a speculative stretch to say that {{file link|Yoshi's Island (overview).png|this island}}, {{file link|Yoshi's Island place YIDS.png|this island}}, and {{file link|YoshislandDS.png|this island}} are the same while {{file link|Yoshi'sIslandSMW.png|this island}} is different, especially since the creators of the games in question never seemed to consider them all that similar in the first place. Crafted World is just about the introduction, anyway. I want to defer to BubbleRevolution's comment about "would these be merged in the first place if the localized name ''weren't'' different?" [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:47, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Your "ulterior motives" question came straight out of the left field. I can only assume it's in reference to a specific comment I left on Porplemontage's talk page some time ago (one which I already admitted to have been slightly overblown), in which case it's yet another piece of writing taken out of context. I contribute to the wiki often and with enjoyment, and I like to argue here, so indeed it's impossible for me not to display a smidgen of emotional involvement in such a heated discussion--however, I consider myself a passenger through and through. Realistically, I'm in no way affected by either outcome nor do I have a reason to insinuate that the opposing side is involved in some sort of conspiracy. That's inane.<br>Back to the topic: I encourage you to re-read my latest response to 7feetunder. Firstly: nobody is making any case for the Smash trophies being the end-all, be-all source of information. Talk about strawmanning. "''This still doesn't provide any reason as to why the two Islands have been split into these two arbitrary lists - the only real reason for this appears to be aesthetic similarities [...]''" And here it is, a fundamental misunderstanding or refusal to consider certain views. No, categorically "aesthetic similarities" isn't the main thrust; it's the perception from the side of the ones who first named those islands. "''Your point about the Wiki only being English because it's a lingua franca isn't correct and you only need to visit the Main Page to find out why - we are listed as the English Wiki on the [[MarioWiki:Mushroom World Encyclopedia|Mushroom World Encyclopedia]], alongside the German Mario Wiki and Italian Mario Wiki, and that we '[cover] the Mario franchise from different areas of the world'.''" Cool? What does this have to do with anything? My claim was that the language info is conveyed in shouldn't be used to twist information to appeal to the addressee's own world view. Language itself is neutral to this franchise's history. Never once have I claimed to advocate for a multi-angled, worldwide presentation of information. All I and some other users really do is push the idea of "creators know best about their creation". That's it. I feel like people here lose sight of that easy principle simply because, more often than not, there exists a language barrier between us English-speaking fans and said creators, and we unfruitfully tangle ourselves up in that notion.<br>Anyway, I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself here. In the spirit of what Bazooka Mario said above, I'll let you have the last word on this. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:54, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::The "ulterior motives" comment was only referring to the implication of disingenuinty and the wider assumptions that people are only opposing because it clashes with their personal canon, neither of which really felt warranted. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 13:18, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::I've made comments like this, and I apologize. But that's the only interpretation I can think of when people say stuff like "I personally always thought they were the same" (paraphrasing). I don't think that's a ulterior motive, but rather that people find it hard to disagree with what they previously believed when presented with new information, instead of looking at the facts. I'll admit when I first played the games when I was a kid, I also thought they were the same until playing the Japanese versions. However, I think the argument that they should stay merged because there's no distinction between them in English is okay, even if I personally disagree. But again, if they do stay merged, I think it should be noted that isn't necessarily what the creators intended.
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| ::::Also, in regards to your original comment: "the way they've been split is based entirely on speculation - which is "completely unimportant" to the Wiki according to MarioWiki:Canonicity." If this were the case, I would agree, but it's not. See my previous comment to '''[[User:Mario|Mario]]'''. The distinction between the islands is very clear and NOT based on speculation, they're purely going by the original Japanese names. The Yoster Isles do have visual similarities (pretty much all of them besides SMRPG really), but that's not what we're going on. I'd argue the idea that all the islands called "Yoshi's Island" in English are the same is what is based entirely on speculation, which is what I meant by the "personal canon" thing in the first place. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 14:43, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::I forgot one other thing in your comment I wanted to respond to: "To go into the idea further, the trophy claims Yoshi assists Mario with his adventures on these islands". I'm pretty sure this is referring to Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Island DS, and Yoshi's Touch & Go (and whatever other games Baby Mario was on Yoshi's Island in). [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 18:29, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Not sure if this is particularly helpful, but the islands also have different names in Chinese and Korean, predictably enough. Those two seem to follow the Japanese names rather closely most of the time, when other languages tend to be more based on the English translations. Somewhat inconsistently, in the case of, say, French and German, but yeah. So the Japanese and English names are the more interesting ones here, it's no surprise they're the ones being brought up... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]])
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| I also looked over at the [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/ Mario Portal character profiles] to see if Yoshi's mentioned both Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island, but his profile only seems to mention the former. Then I looked at the story on [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/world/index.html the portal's Super Mario World page], but while that page does mention Yo'ster Island, the page also states that the story is directly taken from the Japanese manual.<br>I don't think this is to say that the two islands are the same, but I feel it would've been more conclusive evidence that they are different if the two islands were mentioned in the same paragraph on the Mario Portal, but that doesn't seem to be the case. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:14, April 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Nintendo as usual has a functional approach: what matters is that it is the island of the Yoshis, and in case specific references (like in the case of the Booster Course Pass/Tour course that is specifically based on ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'' rather than any other Yoshi platform game). That's why it's so hard for us to decide on this kind of split. It also doesn't help that, despite ''Super Mario World'' being iconic, its own Yo'ster Isle with its unique look hasn't featured a lot in material directly by Nintendo so far, with Yoshi's House being its only actually recurring element, even the course was rather based on the original ''Yoshi's Island''. One even wonders if that world map look of Yo'ster Isle in ''Super Mario World'' wasn't functional as well, with Yoshi's House being the only element that was meant to look like it looked in-game.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 00:28, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::I'd say the PiT version is clearly modeled after the Yoster Isle SMW map, personally. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 14:12, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::I had addressed this before, although at this point the discussion is so lengthy it’s easy to miss my previous messages. I was talking about Nintendo as direct source. ''Partners in Time'' was developed by Alpha Dream. In fact, the directors and a few developers of ''Partners in Time'' had previously worked on ''Super Mario RPG'', it can be seen as pretty natural for them to feature Yo’Ster Isle again, rather than the newer Yoshi’s Island. It’s worth noting how they had directly referenced ''Yoshi’s Island'' with the soundtrack, nonetheless. Nintendo by itself at the moment isn’t particularly invested in referencing the ''Super Mario World'' Yo’Ster Isle as a whole, admittedly though after ''Super Mario Kart'' we haven’t seen Dinosaur Land a lot outside of the Mario Kart classic courses, either.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 15:11, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::I didn't realize you meant the games developed by Nintendo themselves ''only'', not including the ones that were also supervised/published by them, so that makes sense. Yeah, Yoshi Island has essentially replaced Yoster Isle as the more relevant "home of the Yoshis", but this doesn't mean they're the same location, of course. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 15:44, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| It probably doesn't matter, but I thought I'd write how I'm looking at this... So, first, Super Mario World happens and the first world in the game is Yo'ster Isle / Yoshi's Island. Then comes Yoshi's Island, and the game's title screen being this big panorama of a large island with these big mountains and with the name "Yoshi('s) Island" in big letters. It screams "what you are looking at is Yoshi('s) Island", and after that, this island is pretty much established as the place where Yoshis live. So what are the appearances of the original Yo'ster after this point? Super Mario RPG takes practically nothing from the game Yoshi's Island, so the island here is basically just a Super Mario World reference. The Melee stage is obviously a Super Mario World reference too. And then there's Partners in Time, whose island doesn't use the usual design from Yoshi's Island onward, which seems to be deliberate considering practically every appearance of "Yoshi Island" looks pretty much the same from afar. And that's it, that's all the Yo'ster. As for the names, they're different in Japanese and the same in English. Chinese and Korean follow the Japanese version here, while the European and American translations follow the English, which is par for the course... The Japanese and English names are the main point of interest here. Sorry, this is such a mess of a comment. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:44, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :No, it's a good comment, and I was honestly gonna say something similar. I think we're overcomplicating things here in this debate. The large majority of the "Yoshi's Island" appearances in the English games are the ''Yoshi'' series version - Really, this proposal is only about making a separate page for the SMW, SMRPG, Melee, and PiT version of the island. As such, I made a [[User:Yo'ster/Yoshi's Island (Mario_franchise)|preview of what the page would look like if the proposal was successful]] (which doesn't seem like it will happen at this point, but hey). [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 14:10, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| This will be my last statement (unless someone replies one of my comments above with new information/arguments) as there's not much else I can say without repeating myself. [[User:Yo'ster/Statement on Yoshi's Island (Mario franchise) and Yoshi's Island (Yoshi franchise) split|I've written all of my thoughts on this subject here]], which I recommend everyone in this discussion to read over, especially '''[[User:Ray Trace|Ray Trace]]''', '''[[User:Mario|Mario]]''', and '''[[User:MrConcreteDonkey|MrConcreteDonkey]]''' as it clears up some misunderstandings you guys had (and maybe some other people I'm forgetting too). It should also be helpful for people who haven't voted or have already voted as it goes into more detail than the proposal itself. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:14, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :I know I said this would be my last statement, but this is my REAL last statement (lol). I'd like to reiterate that while I'd still prefer the split, '''[[User:7feetunder|7feetunder]]''' has actually convinced me to take a more neutral stance by bringing up the [[Kamek]] and [[Garden Grab]] articles and how they explain the differences with the Japanese version. My only issue with the article was the implication that the locations are the same, so I don't have that much of a problem with it staying merged as long as the discrepency is clarified. As such, I have edited the article in attempt to rectify this, so I hope it's acceptable. If it is, I'm fine with whatever happens, and I don't really have a desire to discuss this further. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 22:36, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| @anyone who wants me to continue the discussion: I'll just leave this here that I simply don't find the evidence presented here convincing enough to change my position. To put things in an easily digestible manner: I simply think that the differences highlighted and the evidence presented still aren't notable enough for me to think that we should split this article into two separate locations and the advantages we get do not outweigh of what I think is the better solution: have a catch-all article for Yoshi's Island in general. My stance here remains the same and others here have already reiterated my position, notably MCD, Mister Wu, Mario, and 7feetunder. There is nothing more I can contribute to this discussion. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:20, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :If you're referring to me, I did not want you to continue the discussion and it was not my intention to pull you into an argument, I just wanted to let you know what I said and consider it. If you understand the proposal and the fact that they're not the same location and have very different names, and still disagree with the split, that's totally fine. I just wanted everyone to be clear on what exactly the proposal entails, as going off what you and others have said there seemed to be a lot of confusion about it. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 21:49, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::I do understand what you are arguing here: that the Yoshi's Island as a "world" from Super Mario World is a distinct entity from the Yoshi's Island we got in Super Mario World 2, and there is some evidence to back that up, as you and others have pointed out and described. I just don't find it compelling enough to warrant a split, backed up by arguments that I agree with on my side. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 22:48, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::Yeah, that's totally fair. Your point of view makes sense especially considering your belief that more articles should be combined (such as the Luigi's Mansion ones) rather than being split up even more. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 22:57, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
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| I'm not gonna weight in the matter being debated here (because honestly, I don't care) but I do want to address the following comment because it's a pretty big misunderstanding of the loc process:
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| "''RE Garden Grab: you have glossed over the fact that this wasn’t the work of localisation. The game was developed in Japan, and Hudson/Nintendo decided or were told to replace a Japanese vegetable with something more internationally recogniseable for the overseas market; therefore, I would say the swapping of models is still the work of the creators. ''"
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| Altering something to suit the target market is by definition localization. Regional divisions like Nintendo of America don't have dedicated programmers that are responsible for altering the localized SKU - all changes done for a regional build of a given game are done by the original developers, at the behest of the regional HQ or local publishers. That includes the replacement of the original Japanese script with that of the target language. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 22:23, April 24, 2023 (EDT)
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| :The authors of any English text in a Japanese-developed game are the often still a distinct localisation division (which is who I was referring to when I said "the work of localisation", apologies for not being specific), as is the case with Mario Party 6. Those who altered the graphics in this game are, in a broad sense, the development team, regardless of who requested them to do so. Theoretically, I'd be willing to attribute authorship to developers and localisers collectively, but there needs to be a fundamental shift in how the wiki treats its subjects in that case. It can't use overseas interpretations on one hand (e.g. [[Fresh Juice]] and [[Super Soda]] being different concepts) and merge [[Fright Mask]] with [[Fright Jar]] on the other. For now, it's absolutely more consistent to treat the Yo'ster and Yoshi's islands as different things. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:23, April 25, 2023 (EDT)
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| ==Yo'ster's Crafted World==
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| {{talk}}
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| The "Yo'ster" text on the decoration {{file link|YCW Yoster Cookies.jpg|here}} in ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' is currently taken to be a reference to ''Super Mario World'', due to it being an acceptable approximation of the Japanese name that originated from that game; however, in light of the announcement of the ''Super Mario RPG'' remake, I'm sure at that talks or early production had occurred while ''Crafted World'' was being developed, and this may have been a sly nod to that. Consider also that the "Yo'ster" transliteration seems to be exclusive to ''Super Mario RPG'' material, as other renderings without the apostrophe (as in Easter Island?) were in official use. Does anyone else support changing it from a ''Super Mario World'' reference to a ''Super Mario RPG'' one? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:12, July 21, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Do we already have the English name of the location in the remake? If not, we can wait for it as a a confirmation that they'll keep said name instead of renaming it to more properly reference the intended location (the island of the Yoshis in ''Super Mario World''). Since in the end we had only one official English counterpart of 「ヨースター」, they might have used it only because of that rather than to reference the game it was first used in.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:57, July 22, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::I agree, though I don't feel that strongly about it, <s>though</s> and I don't think there's any reason to believe Crafted World and SMRPG remake team communicated on this. And yeah, it has the same name in the remake. [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] '''[[User:Yo'ster|<span style="color:green;font-size:16px">{{hover|ヨースター|Yo'ster}}</span>]]''' [[File:SMW-GreenYoshiMapAnimated.gif|link=User:Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 21:40, October 14, 2024 (EDT)
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