Editing Talk:Yoshi's Island (location)
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== Split the two Islands of Yoshi == | == Split the two Islands of Yoshi == | ||
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So, as previously discussed above, there are actually two islands that, thanks to some serendipity in localization and naming, are both known as "Yoshi's Island" in English. We have them here haphazardly merged together, despite being no more similar to each other than either are to [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], [[Egg Island]], or [[Craft Island]], each of which has had a turn as "the" home of the Yoshis. The language-of-origin Japanese text for Yoshi's trophy in ''Smash 3DS/Wii U'' explicitly lists them as separate locations (not just ''names'' them, but ''lists'' them), so they are, for all intents and purposes, not the same place (and it's not like we don't already split a lot of things from "[[Yoshi's Island]]" anyway despite the shared name, but that's a separate issue). I was waiting to see what role the English-made movie would go with and what name it would have in the Japanese version, but since that ended up amounting to a 5-second cameo, we technically don't even know if it's ''any'' Yoshi's Island, though it seems safest to say it's based on SMW2 based on its design and limited look at its contents. | So, as previously discussed above, there are actually two islands that, thanks to some serendipity in localization and naming, are both known as "Yoshi's Island" in English. We have them here haphazardly merged together, despite being no more similar to each other than either are to [[Lavalava Island]], [[Yoshi's Tropical Island]], [[Egg Island]], or [[Craft Island]], each of which has had a turn as "the" home of the Yoshis. The language-of-origin Japanese text for Yoshi's trophy in ''Smash 3DS/Wii U'' explicitly lists them as separate locations (not just ''names'' them, but ''lists'' them), so they are, for all intents and purposes, not the same place (and it's not like we don't already split a lot of things from "[[Yoshi's Island]]" anyway despite the shared name, but that's a separate issue). I was waiting to see what role the English-made movie would go with and what name it would have in the Japanese version, but since that ended up amounting to a 5-second cameo, we technically don't even know if it's ''any'' Yoshi's Island, though it seems safest to say it's based on SMW2 based on its design and limited look at its contents. | ||
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#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal | #{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal | ||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. | #{{User|Hewer}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Yo'ster}} | #{{User|Yo'ster}} Per my comment directly above the proposal. If you look at it from an unbiased point of view, rather than just going off of preconceived notions, they are quite obviously different locations and are only considered one in the same due to the English localization arbitrarily giving them the same name. Also, since this wasn't brought up in the proposal, I should clarify that their names in Japanese are actually {{hover|ヨースター島|Yoster Tou}} (SMW) and {{hover|ヨッシーアイランド|Yoshi Island}} (YI), which are not similar at all besides starting with ヨ (Yo), and they don't use the same word for "Island" either. In other words, it's not a minor spelling difference as it appears to be when directly translated into English. | ||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} It is what it is. | #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} It is what it is. | ||
#{{User|Arend}} Per all, including Yo'ster. | #{{User|Arend}} Per all, including Yo'ster. | ||
#{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all, they're very clearly separate locations in Japanese and Smash Wii U ''explicitly'' refers to them as separate islands. There's no reason to keep them merged into a single article when they're very clearly distinct locations in Japanese. To quote my piece from the discussion section above: ''"The point I'm making is that there's far more evidence they're separate locations than there is that they're intended to be the same place. Separate Japanese names, separate looks, referred to as two different places; the only thing really linking the two as potentially being the same location is the shared English name. Let me put it this way: If the Super Mario World location was still called "Yoster Island" in English, would you still think they should share a single page?"'' | #{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all, they're very clearly separate locations in Japanese and Smash Wii U ''explicitly'' refers to them as separate islands. There's no reason to keep them merged into a single article when they're very clearly distinct locations in Japanese. To quote my piece from the discussion section above: ''"The point I'm making is that there's far more evidence they're separate locations than there is that they're intended to be the same place. Separate Japanese names, separate looks, referred to as two different places; the only thing really linking the two as potentially being the same location is the shared English name. Let me put it this way: If the Super Mario World location was still called "Yoster Island" in English, would you still think they should share a single page?"'' | ||
#{{user|Blhte}} per. | #{{user|Blhte}} per. | ||
====Oppose==== | ====Oppose==== | ||
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#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. | #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all. | #{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|SmokedChili}} I considered supporting the split but changed my mind after looking into Melee where the Japanese stage select has "Yoshi Island" as the greater location of "Yo'ster Island". Compared with Yoshi's Japanese SSB4 trophy, I don't see anything that would make these two pieces of evidence contradict each other | #{{User|SmokedChili}} I considered supporting the split but changed my mind after looking into Melee where the Japanese stage select has "Yoshi Island" as the greater location of "Yo'ster Island". Compared with Yoshi's Japanese SSB4 trophy, I don't see anything that would make these two pieces of evidence contradict each other. Per all. | ||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Per all. I | #{{User|Shadic 34}} Per all. I don't think we need anymore "hair splitting" on this wiki. I think the [[Metal Mario]] article is the perfect example of one article that can talk about two slightly different subjects that revolve around the same idea at the same time, so even if some Yoshi's Islands have some differences from each other, I still think they shouldn't be split into separate articles because of how they're all still meant to be the same island. | ||
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all. | #{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|RealStuffMister}} per all. | #{{User|RealStuffMister}} per all. | ||
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:My interpretation is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless Super Mario World incarnation (which neither the SMRPG or Partners in Time resemble very well either, not even thematically, except the island theme in the basic sense; these are proposed to be in the same page) and expanded on it for the prequel. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:31, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | :My interpretation is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless Super Mario World incarnation (which neither the SMRPG or Partners in Time resemble very well either, not even thematically, except the island theme in the basic sense; these are proposed to be in the same page) and expanded on it for the prequel. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:31, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::Except the only aesthetic similarities between the SMW "Yoshi's Island" and the SMW2 "Yoshi's Island" is that there is green grass and a few round mountains (which are not the same color, have eyes, and are actually hills in SMW) on the world map. But how about thinking of this the other way, then? We're not separating these two just to separate them by name (you could very easily make the SMRPG and PIT incarnations their own pages, mind you), we're separating "SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island" from "Not SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island". This is because the SMW2 theming has largely stuck as what Nintendo uses for Yoshi's Island, and because the listed "Yo'ster Island" appearances are treated as "Yo'ster Island" in Japan. Plus, '''''We have a source in-game officially listing them as separate things.''''' We don't have any sources saying something along the lines of "Hey you know Yoshi's Island from SMW? Well it's actually the same location as the one seen in the Yoshi's Island series!". Consistent thematic, aesthetic, and enemy design + consistently different name in Language of Origin + an in-game source listing then as separate things with none saying otherwise = separate entity. The math is not hard. (And why exactly do you not want the Luigi's Manshion courses to be merged but want this to ''stay'' merged? Editorial inertia?) {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:54, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | ::Except the only aesthetic similarities between the SMW "Yoshi's Island" and the SMW2 "Yoshi's Island" is that there is green grass and a few round mountains (which are not the same color, have eyes, and are actually hills in SMW) on the world map. But how about thinking of this the other way, then? We're not separating these two just to separate them by name (you could very easily make the SMRPG and PIT incarnations their own pages, mind you), we're separating "SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island" from "Not SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island". This is because the SMW2 theming has largely stuck as what Nintendo uses for Yoshi's Island, and because the listed "Yo'ster Island" appearances are treated as "Yo'ster Island" in Japan. Plus, '''''We have a source in-game officially listing them as separate things.''''' We don't have any sources saying something along the lines of "Hey you know Yoshi's Island from SMW? Well it's actually the same location as the one seen in the Yoshi's Island series!". Consistent thematic, aesthetic, and enemy design + consistently different name in Language of Origin + an in-game source listing then as separate things with none saying otherwise = separate entity. The math is not hard. (And why exactly do you not want the Luigi's Manshion courses to be merged but want this to ''stay'' merged? Editorial inertia?) {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 22:54, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:: "they probably took the name" That's the thing, though; they didn't. They're called {{hover|ヨースター島|Yoster Tou}} (SMW) and {{hover|ヨッシーアイランド|Yoshi Island}} (YI) respectively in in Japanese, which are not similar names at all. Same thing with @Ray Trace who said "the Partners in Time [island] which has the same name". It literally does not, that's the whole issue. There's no indication they're supposed to be the same other than the English localization and the vague idea of Yoshis living there. It seems like you guys are already biased towards the assumption they're the same just from playing the English versions first. | :: "they probably took the name" That's the thing, though; they didn't. They're called {{hover|ヨースター島|Yoster Tou}} (SMW) and {{hover|ヨッシーアイランド|Yoshi Island}} (YI) respectively in in Japanese, which are not similar names at all. Same thing with @Ray Trace who said "the Partners in Time [island] which has the same name". It literally does not, that's the whole issue. There's no indication they're supposed to be the same other than the English localization and the vague idea of Yoshis living there. It seems like you guys are already biased towards the assumption they're the same just from playing the English versions first. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 06:42, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:I'd moreso like to know exactly was meant by "the noncanonicty nature of the series" since that phrase can be taken the wrong way (I was going to add something to the effect of "dismissing sources on factors like purported obscurity seems like a degree away from making canon judgments" during one of my last proposals). Either way, if this proposal fails, would it be unreasonable to go into more detail in the introduction as to reasons why it may not necessarily always be intended as the same location? We already do a similar thing with subjects like Missile/Bull's-Eye Bill and Grinder/Ukiki. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:18, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :I'd moreso like to know exactly was meant by "the noncanonicty nature of the series" since that phrase can be taken the wrong way (I was going to add something to the effect of "dismissing sources on factors like purported obscurity seems like a degree away from making canon judgments" during one of my last proposals). Either way, if this proposal fails, would it be unreasonable to go into more detail in the introduction as to reasons why it may not necessarily always be intended as the same location? We already do a similar thing with subjects like Missile/Bull's-Eye Bill and Grinder/Ukiki. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:18, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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'''@7feetunder''' The "few unspecified randos" isn't an argument for this, it's a rebuttal to the "this is what our readers expect ùwú" that I've been seeing recently as a "no, you can't pigeonhole that." As for the K. Rool thing, that was a clear mistake contradicting literally everything else, this contradicts nothing (not even the localization, different places can have the same name). Plus, this was in the era of updates that can remove errors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT) | '''@7feetunder''' The "few unspecified randos" isn't an argument for this, it's a rebuttal to the "this is what our readers expect ùwú" that I've been seeing recently as a "no, you can't pigeonhole that." As for the K. Rool thing, that was a clear mistake contradicting literally everything else, this contradicts nothing (not even the localization, different places can have the same name). Plus, this was in the era of updates that can remove errors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Like I stated in my comment in the discussion above, as far as I can tell, the only two mistakes in Smash that weren't a result of a mistranslation were the K. Rool's brother thing in Brawl and Count Canoli stated to be from the Wario Land series in Ultimate. That's two mistakes compared to the 99% of information in the Smash series that is accurate. And 100% accurate (again, AFAIK) in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description. Same with their stages since Brawl. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd believe the two islands are the same if I was a Japanese fan. | :Like I stated in my comment in the discussion above, as far as I can tell, the only two mistakes in Smash that weren't a result of a mistranslation were the K. Rool's brother thing in Brawl and Count Canoli stated to be from the Wario Land series in Ultimate. That's two mistakes compared to the 99% of information in the Smash series that is accurate. And 100% accurate (again, AFAIK) in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description. Same with their stages since Brawl. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd believe the two islands are the same if I was a Japanese fan. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 05:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::"''in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description.''" Just to clarify, is that something in the Japanese versions of the games? I took a cursory look at our trophy pages, and the English scripts seem to use the umbrella term "Yoshi's Island", unless I need an eye check. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:05, April 21, 2023 (EDT)~ | ::"''in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description.''" Just to clarify, is that something in the Japanese versions of the games? I took a cursory look at our trophy pages, and the English scripts seem to use the umbrella term "Yoshi's Island", unless I need an eye check. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:05, April 21, 2023 (EDT)~ | ||
:::Yes, you are correct. See BubbleRevolution's comment at 18:44, December 13, 2021 (EST) in the discussion above. It was also mentioned in the opening paragraph of the propsal. Edit: You can see it for yourself here: https://youtu.be/Kjy7Gd4cjrM?t=418 It's the same in the 3DS version, which makes it even less likely that it's a mistake, now that I think about it. | :::Yes, you are correct. See BubbleRevolution's comment at 18:44, December 13, 2021 (EST) in the discussion above. It was also mentioned in the opening paragraph of the propsal. Edit: You can see it for yourself here: https://youtu.be/Kjy7Gd4cjrM?t=418 It's the same in the 3DS version, which makes it even less likely that it's a mistake, now that I think about it. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 06:15, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
'''@"Oppose" voters''' I honestly do not understand the logic with merging these but not Lavalava Island, Craft Island, etc. At that point you might as well just merge every single islands were Yoshis live at this point. I'm open to changing my mind, so can someone against the split please explain your point of view regarding this? The only argument you seem to have is basically "they have the same name in English lol". | '''@"Oppose" voters''' I honestly do not understand the logic with merging these but not Lavalava Island, Craft Island, etc. At that point you might as well just merge every single islands were Yoshis live at this point. I'm open to changing my mind, so can someone against the split please explain your point of view regarding this? The only argument you seem to have is basically "they have the same name in English lol". --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 05:32, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:something something "our readers come here for this", something something "there's uhm uuh there's one isolated reference to the game yoshi's island, ''clearly'' they must be the same island (even though you could make the same argument for the literal yoshis living there)" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 05:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :something something "our readers come here for this", something something "there's uhm uuh there's one isolated reference to the game yoshi's island, ''clearly'' they must be the same island (even though you could make the same argument for the literal yoshis living there)" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 05:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::The two were made squarely after Yoshi's Island established itself. They're considered separate locations with little doubt about their names in several languages, unlike Yoshter where there is a conflict of naming schemes (especially in Smash Bros. that has two stages called "Yoshi's Island"), but also very notable in Partners in Time), on top of the very similar names, on top of the already-inconsistent portrayals of Yoshi's Island. [[Egg Island]] is Yoshi's Island all but in name but we have a page on it because of both the naming scheme ''and'' that the game it's in calls it a "second home" for the Yoshis. Maybe future games will mistakenly refer to Egg Island as Yoshi's Island because Egg Island has zero reason to be called such except probably coincide with the ''Yoshi's New Island'' game name, which would just make everyone even more confused, but until then it's called as such across all languages and called a "second home" and so we anticipate a page on it. I mean if Egg Island gets a page without a doubt I don't think it's unreasonable to make pages for Lavalava Island or Craft Island (the latter being also basically Yoshi's Island but having unambiguously a different name and probably to coincide with the game's themes) and maybe just refer to them because they're so similar to Yoshi's Island that the casual reader might think they're Yoshi's Island. Lavalava Island is not the best example to bring up either IMO; the location isn't significantly stand-out in its use of Yoshi's Island elements barring Yoshi residents and Lava Piranha Plant; the entire game already borrows from Yoshi's Island from enemies like Lantern Ghosts, Bandits, Bumpties, Crayzee Dayzees, and Little Mousers and even referencing several enemy designs including Boo, Goomba, and the Paratroopas. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ::The two were made squarely after Yoshi's Island established itself. They're considered separate locations with little doubt about their names in several languages, unlike Yoshter where there is a conflict of naming schemes (especially in Smash Bros. that has two stages called "Yoshi's Island"), but also very notable in Partners in Time), on top of the very similar names, on top of the already-inconsistent portrayals of Yoshi's Island. [[Egg Island]] is Yoshi's Island all but in name but we have a page on it because of both the naming scheme ''and'' that the game it's in calls it a "second home" for the Yoshis. Maybe future games will mistakenly refer to Egg Island as Yoshi's Island because Egg Island has zero reason to be called such except probably coincide with the ''Yoshi's New Island'' game name, which would just make everyone even more confused, but until then it's called as such across all languages and called a "second home" and so we anticipate a page on it. I mean if Egg Island gets a page without a doubt I don't think it's unreasonable to make pages for Lavalava Island or Craft Island (the latter being also basically Yoshi's Island but having unambiguously a different name and probably to coincide with the game's themes) and maybe just refer to them because they're so similar to Yoshi's Island that the casual reader might think they're Yoshi's Island. Lavalava Island is not the best example to bring up either IMO; the location isn't significantly stand-out in its use of Yoshi's Island elements barring Yoshi residents and Lava Piranha Plant; the entire game already borrows from Yoshi's Island from enemies like Lantern Ghosts, Bandits, Bumpties, Crayzee Dayzees, and Little Mousers and even referencing several enemy designs including Boo, Goomba, and the Paratroopas. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::Lavalava also has Ravens, Spear Guys, (Putrid) Piranha Plants with a similar stance to those in Yoshi's Island. Also, while Paper Mario does borrow a lot from Yoshi's Island, saying that in comparison to Partners in Time seems weird, considering that game's focus on the baby characters in the past. Though now that I'm looking, it seems to only use two enemies from ''Yoshi's Island'', Boo Guy and Fly Guy... neither of which appear on the island. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :::Lavalava also has Ravens, Spear Guys, (Putrid) Piranha Plants with a similar stance to those in Yoshi's Island. Also, while Paper Mario does borrow a lot from Yoshi's Island, saying that in comparison to Partners in Time seems weird, considering that game's focus on the baby characters in the past. Though now that I'm looking, it seems to only use two enemies from ''Yoshi's Island'', Boo Guy and Fly Guy... neither of which appear on the island. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::It can be hard to keep track of this discussion (which is also why I didn't see your response until now) so I don't blame you if you missed it, so I'll say again that the names are not "very similar", but I kinda get why you'd think that especially since you keep calling it "Yoshter" (there's no H). That implies that they just swapped out "ter" for "i", but this isn't the case. They have completely different names - "Yōsutā Tō" (pronounced like Yo-Sta Toh) vs. "Yosshī Airando". Like I said under my "Support" vote: "Not similar at all besides starting with ヨ (Yo), and they don't use the same word for "Island" either." Anyway, as for your comment in general, look at it this way: Aside from the names in the English localizations, is there anything to suggest that they should be grouped together that doesn't also apply to the other "Yoshi islands"? | ::::It can be hard to keep track of this discussion (which is also why I didn't see your response until now) so I don't blame you if you missed it, so I'll say again that the names are not "very similar", but I kinda get why you'd think that especially since you keep calling it "Yoshter" (there's no H). That implies that they just swapped out "ter" for "i", but this isn't the case. They have completely different names - "Yōsutā Tō" (pronounced like Yo-Sta Toh) vs. "Yosshī Airando". Like I said under my "Support" vote: "Not similar at all besides starting with ヨ (Yo), and they don't use the same word for "Island" either." Anyway, as for your comment in general, look at it this way: Aside from the names in the English localizations, is there anything to suggest that they should be grouped together that doesn't also apply to the other "Yoshi islands"? --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 20:23, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
I also find it weird that most of the opposition basically boil down to "they still have the same name in English", when it's the exact same predicament as [[Piranha Plant (Pit of 100 Trials)]], which was split from [[Piranha Plant]] ''purely'' due to its Japanese name being different (it looks otherwise identical to any Piranha Plant). I'm not sure why that's allowed to be split, but this isn't. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:43, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | I also find it weird that most of the opposition basically boil down to "they still have the same name in English", when it's the exact same predicament as [[Piranha Plant (Pit of 100 Trials)]], which was split from [[Piranha Plant]] ''purely'' due to its Japanese name being different (it looks otherwise identical to any Piranha Plant). I'm not sure why that's allowed to be split, but this isn't. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:43, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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:::Elaborating: the Piranha Plant situation in Thousand-Year Door is an anomaly of English localization. The Pit of 100 Trials enemy in the Tattle Log says "''It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled!''" and every other localization coined a unique name for the thing. On top of this, Pale Piranha adds to the confusion, where English localization deems it as a "new" enemy but the Tattle Log is ambiguous about its identity ("'' That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants''") while every other language makes it more clear that it's just a normal Piranha Plant that's faded (so I ask rhetorically, where does that leave the Pit of 100 Trials plant??). While I believe Pale Piranha should just have its own page, I do think this is the case where English localization messed up and dealt us a bad hand, so I'm not opposed to the current setup of Pale Piranha merged in Piranha Plant either. See [[Talk:Pale Piranha]]; it's a contentious gray zone... a zone as gray as that Piranha Plant, the votes there are also quite divided on the merge. As I said, Japanese names CAN add clarity to a situation, and this is the one example I had in mind when I said that, but it cannot be relied on its own, it has to be supported by additional evidence as well as evidence of flaws in English localization. This is why I don't support splitting this on Japanese names but splitting the Pit of 100 Trials Piranha Plant on the Japanese names. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:41, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :::Elaborating: the Piranha Plant situation in Thousand-Year Door is an anomaly of English localization. The Pit of 100 Trials enemy in the Tattle Log says "''It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled!''" and every other localization coined a unique name for the thing. On top of this, Pale Piranha adds to the confusion, where English localization deems it as a "new" enemy but the Tattle Log is ambiguous about its identity ("'' That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants''") while every other language makes it more clear that it's just a normal Piranha Plant that's faded (so I ask rhetorically, where does that leave the Pit of 100 Trials plant??). While I believe Pale Piranha should just have its own page, I do think this is the case where English localization messed up and dealt us a bad hand, so I'm not opposed to the current setup of Pale Piranha merged in Piranha Plant either. See [[Talk:Pale Piranha]]; it's a contentious gray zone... a zone as gray as that Piranha Plant, the votes there are also quite divided on the merge. As I said, Japanese names CAN add clarity to a situation, and this is the one example I had in mind when I said that, but it cannot be relied on its own, it has to be supported by additional evidence as well as evidence of flaws in English localization. This is why I don't support splitting this on Japanese names but splitting the Pit of 100 Trials Piranha Plant on the Japanese names. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:41, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
'''@ | '''@{{User|SmokedChili}}''' Sadly, that just brings more questions than answers. If Yo'ster Island is part of Yoshi's Island, does that mean Dinosaur Land is part of Yoshi's Island too? Or is Yoshi's Island part of Dinosaur Land? And how is Yo'ster Island supposed to be also part of a bigger island judging from its layout in any of the games? Also, why would the SSB4 trophy mention both islands and not just the greater location of Yoshi's Island? I'd love for it to be the case that both interpretations are correct, but it doesn't make much sense to me and contradicts pretty much everything else despite what you said, unless I'm misunderstanding something. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 11:38, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Considering that Dinosaur Land isn't even close to the vicinity of YI's Yoshi's Island (as it is nowhere to be seen on the title screen), I'm really not sure to believe that Yo'ster Island is supposed to be a small part of Yoshi's Island (or in turn, if Yoshi's Island either is a small part of Dinosaur Land, or even ''is'' Dinosaur Land). Considering that "greater locations" were opted out from stages in later Smash titles, I'm more inclined to believe that this is either a flub or a "series generalization" (as the Melee stage is regarded as a Yoshi series stage despite obviously being based on a Super Mario World location). For example, both Mute City and Big Blue's greater location is "F-Zero Grand Prix", which is not a location, but an event; as both courses take place on different planets. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:24, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :Considering that Dinosaur Land isn't even close to the vicinity of YI's Yoshi's Island (as it is nowhere to be seen on the title screen), I'm really not sure to believe that Yo'ster Island is supposed to be a small part of Yoshi's Island (or in turn, if Yoshi's Island either is a small part of Dinosaur Land, or even ''is'' Dinosaur Land). Considering that "greater locations" were opted out from stages in later Smash titles, I'm more inclined to believe that this is either a flub or a "series generalization" (as the Melee stage is regarded as a Yoshi series stage despite obviously being based on a Super Mario World location). For example, both Mute City and Big Blue's greater location is "F-Zero Grand Prix", which is not a location, but an event; as both courses take place on different planets. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:24, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Plus, that may actually be greater cause for a split instead, given that the wiki hardly merges "greater" locations with "lesser" ones. If you look at [https://themushroomkingdom.net/ssbm_j2e.shtml#stages this], every other ''Mario''-related greater location is indeed its own article. And this explains perfectly why the equivalent English text goes with the incredibly awkward "Yoshi's Island ''Yoshi's Island''" when no other stage repeats itself. The impression I get is “localizer plugged official translations in processor and editor didn't notice how strange it looked in-game” rather than a deliberate attempt at making them the same location in and of itself, which would've been better conveyed had it been formatted like the Mushroom Kingdom and Mushroom Kingdom II stages. All it proves is that they have the same English name currently, which we're already aware of? There are real-world places like that, like [[Manhattan|NY]], [[New York|NY]]. (As for ''why'' Yoshi's Island is part of Yoshi's Island, I'm not too sure - I wonder if someone thought "Yoshi Island" was synonymous with "Dinosaur Land" or if they needed something to pair with the Yoshi's Story stage - but the fact remains.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:25, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :Plus, that may actually be greater cause for a split instead, given that the wiki hardly merges "greater" locations with "lesser" ones. If you look at [https://themushroomkingdom.net/ssbm_j2e.shtml#stages this], every other ''Mario''-related greater location is indeed its own article. And this explains perfectly why the equivalent English text goes with the incredibly awkward "Yoshi's Island ''Yoshi's Island''" when no other stage repeats itself. The impression I get is “localizer plugged official translations in processor and editor didn't notice how strange it looked in-game” rather than a deliberate attempt at making them the same location in and of itself, which would've been better conveyed had it been formatted like the Mushroom Kingdom and Mushroom Kingdom II stages. All it proves is that they have the same English name currently, which we're already aware of? There are real-world places like that, like [[Manhattan|NY]], [[New York|NY]]. (As for ''why'' Yoshi's Island is part of Yoshi's Island, I'm not too sure - I wonder if someone thought "Yoshi Island" was synonymous with "Dinosaur Land" or if they needed something to pair with the Yoshi's Story stage - but the fact remains.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:25, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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::::Not least of which would be the [[Toad Town#Names in other languages|situation]] with [[Toad Town#Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|the ''Super Mario RPG'' equivalent of Toad Town]], or you can count {{world-link|8|bowser3|World 8-Bowser's Castle (Super Mario Bros. 3)}} in several releases of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' for the earliest instance. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:55, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ::::Not least of which would be the [[Toad Town#Names in other languages|situation]] with [[Toad Town#Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|the ''Super Mario RPG'' equivalent of Toad Town]], or you can count {{world-link|8|bowser3|World 8-Bowser's Castle (Super Mario Bros. 3)}} in several releases of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' for the earliest instance. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:55, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::::That's the point I was making, bring up some other place(s) for splitting/merging/moving using Japanese naming and there come the rationalizations why it doesn't sound like a strong reason to. At least Mayoi no Mori is used as a name in like two games, Karakara Sabaku is instead caught in policy bureucracy. Also Smithy Factory is a bad example since 1) SMRPG doesn't use an in-game system for naming locations and 2) it's a name from a strategy guide. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:54, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | :::::That's the point I was making, bring up some other place(s) for splitting/merging/moving using Japanese naming and there come the rationalizations why it doesn't sound like a strong reason to. At least Mayoi no Mori is used as a name in like two games, Karakara Sabaku is instead caught in policy bureucracy. Also Smithy Factory is a bad example since 1) SMRPG doesn't use an in-game system for naming locations and 2) it's a name from a strategy guide. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:54, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | ||
(''I started this in response to KCC's comment just above but this turned into more of a general point, and it's not exclusively aimed at him'') I was initially going to add a longer reason for my oppose vote but this attitude from some people on the support side (and the proposal itself) is exactly what switched me off from doing so, and I'd imagine plenty of other people on the oppose side are in the same boat. There's no need to be so condescending about this, especially considering it's a trivial thing which basically boils down to each voter's opinion whether the two being different in the Japanese version should matter to us or not. | (''I started this in response to KCC's comment just above but this turned into more of a general point, and it's not exclusively aimed at him'') I was initially going to add a longer reason for my oppose vote but this attitude from some people on the support side (and the proposal itself) is exactly what switched me off from doing so, and I'd imagine plenty of other people on the oppose side are in the same boat. There's no need to be so condescending about this, especially considering it's a trivial thing which basically boils down to each voter's opinion whether the two being different in the Japanese version should matter to us or not. | ||
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:Apologies if I came off as condescending, it wasn't my intent. I understand your position, however I think you missed the point of the proposal. No one wants to make a "Yo'ster Island" article; if that were the case, I'd agree with you, but the proposal was specifically to split them between '''Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)''' and '''Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)''' (Doc von Schmeltwick's probably should've mentioned that at the start instead of only mentioning it in an addendum, but oh well). This is because they are literally two different locations who were given the same name in the English localizations. I'm not gonna go into the arguments again as you can read them above, but the short version is that in addition to them not having the same name, they also have little to do with each other besides being islands where Yoshis live. | :Apologies if I came off as condescending, it wasn't my intent. I understand your position, however I think you missed the point of the proposal. No one wants to make a "Yo'ster Island" article; if that were the case, I'd agree with you, but the proposal was specifically to split them between '''Yoshi's Island (''Mario'' franchise)''' and '''Yoshi's Island (''Yoshi'' franchise)''' (Doc von Schmeltwick's probably should've mentioned that at the start instead of only mentioning it in an addendum, but oh well). This is because they are literally two different locations who were given the same name in the English localizations. I'm not gonna go into the arguments again as you can read them above, but the short version is that in addition to them not having the same name, they also have little to do with each other besides being islands where Yoshis live. | ||
:If you still disagree with the proposal even after taking that into account, that's okay too. If your idea is that the articles should stay merged because that's what English speakers know them as, despite being different locations, I still disagree but it's at least more understandable. Though if it stays merged, I feel it should at least be noted that they are indeed different islands with different names in Japanese. | :If you still disagree with the proposal even after taking that into account, that's okay too. If your idea is that the articles should stay merged because that's what English speakers know them as, despite being different locations, I still disagree but it's at least more understandable. Though if it stays merged, I feel it should at least be noted that they are indeed different islands with different names in Japanese. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 14:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::Thanks for clarifying that, if it does pass then calling both "Yoshi's Island" definitely makes more sense. Also I hadn't noticed anything you'd said in particular, so no worries. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 14:37, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ::Thanks for clarifying that, if it does pass then calling both "Yoshi's Island" definitely makes more sense. Also I hadn't noticed anything you'd said in particular, so no worries. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 14:37, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:@Mr Concrete Donkey: You took the policy out of context and applied it to something unrelated. Very convenient for the point you are trying to make, but disingenuous all the same.<br>The policy you quoted concerns subject names, '''''and nothing more'''''. I don't see it making a single case for using that specific aspect as a thrust for the wiki's organisation (that obviously shouldn't even be in the policy's scope). Perhaps you can show me where it does? Anyhow, two completely unrelated things can have the same name in English, like [[Boomer (Donkey Kong Country 3)|Boomer]] and [[Boomer (Super Paper Mario)|Boomer]]; for the same reasons you invoked earlier, would you say these warrant being merged?<br>I'm certain you would think of course not! Those characters have nothing in common, from species, to appearance, to even the context they are found in. So here's the real kicker: based on much the same criteria, Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island aren't the same place either. They are both inhabited by Yoshis, and both have the same English name, but that's where the similarities end. Nevermind the different appearance and context: they are indicated as being separate by all lang-of-origin sources, including the games themselves, and I'd be hard pressed to think these, of all conceivable media and authorities on the matter, weren't overseen by whatever entity at Nintendo keeps the brand and its constituent elements in check. I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"{{'}}s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from ''Super Mario World''{{'}}s original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market; regardless of whether or not this actually happened, the fact remains firm that the very people who created the games made a conscious decision to tie this place to the SMW Yoshi's Island, and that those who created the original ''Yoshi's Island'' game ostensibly didn't have an intention of expanding the first world of SMW into an entire game setting, if, again, the lang-of-origin name is anything to go by.<br>"''But we're English!!! Our readers!!!!!1!!1!''"<br>Anyone who still uses this argument needs to understand that it's a facet of a {{wp|Argumentum ad populum|well-known rhetorical fallacy}}. The wiki has chosen English as its lingua franca, because it had to choose one and it was (likely) most handy for the founder to use. That's all there is to it. This shouldn't by any means be an excuse to distort the authorial intent and developments of this wiki's relevant constructs, for at the end of the day the site's mission statement as an online encyclopedia is (or should be) accuracy, thoroughness, and reliability. Besides, as it's been posed a few times before: if these two incarnations of "Yoshi's home island" had altogether different names in English as they do in Japanese, would this discussion even take place? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :@Mr Concrete Donkey: You took the policy out of context and applied it to something unrelated. Very convenient for the point you are trying to make, but disingenuous all the same.<br>The policy you quoted concerns subject names, '''''and nothing more'''''. I don't see it making a single case for using that specific aspect as a thrust for the wiki's organisation (that obviously shouldn't even be in the policy's scope). Perhaps you can show me where it does? Anyhow, two completely unrelated things can have the same name in English, like [[Boomer (Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!)|Boomer]] and [[Boomer (Super Paper Mario)|Boomer]]; for the same reasons you invoked earlier, would you say these warrant being merged?<br>I'm certain you would think of course not! Those characters have nothing in common, from species, to appearance, to even the context they are found in. So here's the real kicker: based on much the same criteria, Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island aren't the same place either. They are both inhabited by Yoshis, and both have the same English name, but that's where the similarities end. Nevermind the different appearance and context: they are indicated as being separate by all lang-of-origin sources, including the games themselves, and I'd be hard pressed to think these, of all conceivable media and authorities on the matter, weren't overseen by whatever entity at Nintendo keeps the brand and its constituent elements in check. I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"{{'}}s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from ''Super Mario World''{{'}}s original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market; regardless of whether or not this actually happened, the fact remains firm that the very people who created the games made a conscious decision to tie this place to the SMW Yoshi's Island, and that those who created the original ''Yoshi's Island'' game ostensibly didn't have an intention of expanding the first world of SMW into an entire game setting, if, again, the lang-of-origin name is anything to go by.<br>"''But we're English!!! Our readers!!!!!1!!1!''"<br>Anyone who still uses this argument needs to understand that it's a facet of a {{wp|Argumentum ad populum|well-known rhetorical fallacy}}. The wiki has chosen English as its lingua franca, because it had to choose one and it was (likely) most handy for the founder to use. That's all there is to it. This shouldn't by any means be an excuse to distort the authorial intent and developments of this wiki's relevant constructs, for at the end of the day the site's mission statement as an online encyclopedia is (or should be) accuracy, thoroughness, and reliability. Besides, as it's been posed a few times before: if these two incarnations of "Yoshi's home island" had altogether different names in English as they do in Japanese, would this discussion even take place? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::"''I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"'s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from Super Mario World's original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market''" Pretty sure that's literally what it is. Same reason it's called "Yoshi's Island" in Smash, and every other English game besides Super Mario RPG. But yeah, the best argument I can see for "Oppose" at this point is "They're different places, but it's easier for English speakers to keep them merged", which seems inconsistent with the rest of the wiki as you pointed out. Though with your specific example, it could be argued that the Yoshi islands are still a lot more similar than the Boomers, but again that just goes back to, "are we going to merge everything that's slightly similar, by that logic Lavalava Island etc...". It's all arbitrary and up to discretion on where to draw the line. However, I feel the most important thing should probably be consistency, which is why I tend to agree with you on this matter. | ::"''I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"'s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from Super Mario World's original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market''" Pretty sure that's literally what it is. Same reason it's called "Yoshi's Island" in Smash, and every other English game besides Super Mario RPG. But yeah, the best argument I can see for "Oppose" at this point is "They're different places, but it's easier for English speakers to keep them merged", which seems inconsistent with the rest of the wiki as you pointed out. Though with your specific example, it could be argued that the Yoshi islands are still a lot more similar than the Boomers, but again that just goes back to, "are we going to merge everything that's slightly similar, by that logic Lavalava Island etc...". It's all arbitrary and up to discretion on where to draw the line. However, I feel the most important thing should probably be consistency, which is why I tend to agree with you on this matter. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::The Boomers were chosen simply to make a point that [[MarioWiki:Naming]] doesn't have jurisdiction over the merging or splitting of subjects, even when they share a name. I guess a more similar analogy to the two Yoshi's Islands would be [[Spiny]] and [[Spiny (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)]], since conceptually they can be seen as pretty much the same thing. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:20, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :::The Boomers were chosen simply to make a point that [[MarioWiki:Naming]] doesn't have jurisdiction over the merging or splitting of subjects, even when they share a name. I guess a more similar analogy to the two Yoshi's Islands would be [[Spiny]] and [[Spiny (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)]], since conceptually they can be seen as pretty much the same thing. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:20, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::Yeah, I getcha. I was basically just playing devil's advocate as I assumed someone would probably respond to you and say that. | ::::Yeah, I getcha. I was basically just playing devil's advocate as I assumed someone would probably respond to you and say that. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:23, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
Apologies in advance if this is uncouth, but I'd like to go into more detail and respond to some specific points made. If I mentioned you here, you don't need to respond, I just want to get all my thoughts out there. | Apologies in advance if this is uncouth, but I'd like to go into more detail and respond to some specific points made. If I mentioned you here, you don't need to respond, I just want to get all my thoughts out there. | ||
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This is irrelevant, it doesn't matter what you personally thought. If Lavalava has a similar amount of similarities to Yoshi's Island as PiT Yoshi's Island does, yet they're counted separately because they have different names, that should apply equally across the board. | This is irrelevant, it doesn't matter what you personally thought. If Lavalava has a similar amount of similarities to Yoshi's Island as PiT Yoshi's Island does, yet they're counted separately because they have different names, that should apply equally across the board. | ||
Again, if you recognize they're different locations but just think it's better to have them in one article due to sharing an English name, that's fine, but statements like these come off as speculative and headcanon-y (for lack of a better term). Again, apologies if this comes off as rude since that's not my intent. | Again, if you recognize they're different locations but just think it's better to have them in one article due to sharing an English name, that's fine, but statements like these come off as speculative and headcanon-y (for lack of a better term). Again, apologies if this comes off as rude since that's not my intent. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 16:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Given the lack of evidence for the separation (again the talk page above: and given the general chronology between World and World 2, given that some users had to dig through a ton of sources that either say little about, is ambiguous, or contradicts the subject until you found one that did); LinktheLefty did the same and had a comment that was very very inconclusive, see the comment made in 11:17, October 23, 2021 (EDT)[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=3489703&oldid=3488029][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489706][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489707]), I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation. As I said, I could see a case for the proto-Yoshi's Island from World being its own page, ''but'' this proposal is going to have an article that's split between two series all over a distinction that isn't even clear to begin with. Where is [[Yoshi's Island (board)]] going to go, with its appearance in the Mario series? It clearly alludes to the Yoshi series but what about the [[Yoshi's Island (golf course)]]? Is that going to be lumped with the Super Mario World Yoshi's Island? It's still effectively a Yo'shter island vs Yoshi's Island situation. As Mister Wu said in the above discussion, whatever distinction between these islands is blurred, but eventually lost as the brand developed, as seen in the interview with Toby Fox which Nintendo published. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:19, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :Given the lack of evidence for the separation (again the talk page above: and given the general chronology between World and World 2, given that some users had to dig through a ton of sources that either say little about, is ambiguous, or contradicts the subject until you found one that did); LinktheLefty did the same and had a comment that was very very inconclusive, see the comment made in 11:17, October 23, 2021 (EDT)[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=3489703&oldid=3488029][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489706][https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=next&oldid=3489707]), I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation. As I said, I could see a case for the proto-Yoshi's Island from World being its own page, ''but'' this proposal is going to have an article that's split between two series all over a distinction that isn't even clear to begin with. Where is [[Yoshi's Island (board)]] going to go, with its appearance in the Mario series? It clearly alludes to the Yoshi series but what about the [[Yoshi's Island (golf course)]]? Is that going to be lumped with the Super Mario World Yoshi's Island? It's still effectively a Yo'shter island vs Yoshi's Island situation. As Mister Wu said in the above discussion, whatever distinction between these islands is blurred, but eventually lost as the brand developed, as seen in the interview with Toby Fox which Nintendo published. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:19, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::I don't think the interview helps prove anything. The writer/translator isn't the brand managing director, nor are they actually confirmed to have been in touch with someone in that position; for all we know, they just didn't care to research the topic like we do, and jotted down exactly what the interviewee said. It's not evidence that the committee has lost track of its own creation or something. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:31, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ::I don't think the interview helps prove anything. The writer/translator isn't the brand managing director, nor are they actually confirmed to have been in touch with someone in that position; for all we know, they just didn't care to research the topic like we do, and jotted down exactly what the interviewee said. It's not evidence that the committee has lost track of its own creation or something. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:31, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::: | :::I know you were probably initially confusing me with someone else but I never dug through any sources; I'm literally going off of the Japanese games alone and that's it. When taking that into account it's pretty obvious which games go where, and the distinction is very clear. Did you think they were going to be arbitrarily separated based on whichever series we personally thought it resembled more? And with the "proto-Yoshi's Island" comment, it seems you're still assuming that Yoshi's Island is somehow an evolution of "Yoster Island", of which there is no indication of besides their shared English name and Yoshis living there. If anything, Dinosaur Land as a whole is a proto-Yoshi's Island, as it has more similarities to YI than "Yoster Island" alone (not much, but still more). --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 18:09, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::: | |||
:::Ironically, the implication of digging through sources to find something that fits a pre-concived narrative applies more to the Toby Fox interview, as that's the best evidence I've seen for them being the same or becoming burred together, besides the English names, and it's still flawed as you said. While on the other hand we have actual in-game sources explicitly saying they're ''not'' the same in addition to them having completely different names in the original language. Not saying there isn't any more evidence to the contrary, just that I haven't seen it and no one has posted it yet. Like, if Nintendo came out and clearly said they're the same after all, I would join the oppose side. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 18:09, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:You're taking my words out of context. That was a response to Doc's claim that "the merge here ''always'' bothered me even before I knew about the JP name thing", a sentiment I did not share. It's not a reason this shouldn't be split. You responding to that quote is what's irrelevant. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 20:34, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | :You're taking my words out of context. That was a response to Doc's claim that "the merge here ''always'' bothered me even before I knew about the JP name thing", a sentiment I did not share. It's not a reason this shouldn't be split. You responding to that quote is what's irrelevant. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 20:34, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::Apologies for the misunderstanding. It still applies to the general sentiment, at least. | ::Apologies for the misunderstanding. It still applies to the general sentiment, at least. --[[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] ([[User talk:Yo'ster|talk]]) 20:45, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | ||
Gonna echo MrConcreteDonkey's sentiment that strawmanning has become a persistent issue with the supporters' commentary. Something something "japanese namez r diffrent", something something "smash sed so". <-- There you have it, a 100% accurate and not-at-all hideously biased summation of the supporters' thoughts. If you can do this, why shouldn't I? Answer: because it proves exactly nothing. | Gonna echo MrConcreteDonkey's sentiment that strawmanning has become a persistent issue with the supporters' commentary. Something something "japanese namez r diffrent", something something "smash sed so". <-- There you have it, a 100% accurate and not-at-all hideously biased summation of the supporters' thoughts. If you can do this, why shouldn't I? Answer: because it proves exactly nothing. | ||
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:RE Garden Grab: you have glossed over the fact that this wasn’t the work of localisation. The game was developed in Japan, and Hudson/Nintendo decided or were told to replace a Japanese vegetable with something more internationally recogniseable for the overseas market; therefore, I would say the swapping of models is still the work of the creators. Besides, the wiki being English means it can and should outwardly echo English material--if Yo’ster were to be split from Yoshi’s Island, it would still be called “Yoshi’s Island” with an identifier because that’s its most recent and commonly used English name. To paraphrase what I told MrConcreteDonkey, do not conflate issues of naming and outward presentation with the intent behind these concepts.<br>RE Smash rebuttal: Quite honestly I did not see anyone seriously interpreting those trophy descriptions as decisive, but moreso being received for consideration and comparison. In that respect, I think it’s evident that they do carry much more weight than a random online interview. If you want to reduce the supporters’ rationale to a curt comment, keep in mind that it has to make sense first.<br>RE general issue of distinction: As I said above, it’s likely whoever localised PiT and Smash 3DS/WiiU in English went for the original English name of the SMW island because that’s what local markets tie what the Japanese call “Yo’ster island” to. The English Smash trophy writer either didn’t have enough space or didn’t have the fiat to add “see, Yoshi actually lives on two different islands called Yoshi’s Island” and just merged the two concepts for the sake of brevity.<br>”For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric.” You’re making stuff up. There is no sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers like you’re making it out to be. In the Construction Site Fight proposal, my arguments even reflected an altogether different sentiment, that the English naming scheme of that level should be prioritised—which is because the creators of the game that subject pertains to were British, with the manual writer likely American. I’m only for consistently applying the principle of “authorial intent”.<br>RE Yoshi’s Island golf course: And the aforementioned point finally brings me here. In the absence of any obvious physical clues that would tie the course to one island or another, IMO it’s best to turn to the Japanese name (as the game’s creators were Japanese), which staunchly ties is to the, uh, “Yoshi’s Island” Yoshi’s Island. Also, I admit I find strange how you're fixated on this one-shot level in a spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house and you think the way you identify it completely topples the plethora of arguments made in support of the proposal. Case closed. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:36, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | :RE Garden Grab: you have glossed over the fact that this wasn’t the work of localisation. The game was developed in Japan, and Hudson/Nintendo decided or were told to replace a Japanese vegetable with something more internationally recogniseable for the overseas market; therefore, I would say the swapping of models is still the work of the creators. Besides, the wiki being English means it can and should outwardly echo English material--if Yo’ster were to be split from Yoshi’s Island, it would still be called “Yoshi’s Island” with an identifier because that’s its most recent and commonly used English name. To paraphrase what I told MrConcreteDonkey, do not conflate issues of naming and outward presentation with the intent behind these concepts.<br>RE Smash rebuttal: Quite honestly I did not see anyone seriously interpreting those trophy descriptions as decisive, but moreso being received for consideration and comparison. In that respect, I think it’s evident that they do carry much more weight than a random online interview. If you want to reduce the supporters’ rationale to a curt comment, keep in mind that it has to make sense first.<br>RE general issue of distinction: As I said above, it’s likely whoever localised PiT and Smash 3DS/WiiU in English went for the original English name of the SMW island because that’s what local markets tie what the Japanese call “Yo’ster island” to. The English Smash trophy writer either didn’t have enough space or didn’t have the fiat to add “see, Yoshi actually lives on two different islands called Yoshi’s Island” and just merged the two concepts for the sake of brevity.<br>”For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric.” You’re making stuff up. There is no sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers like you’re making it out to be. In the Construction Site Fight proposal, my arguments even reflected an altogether different sentiment, that the English naming scheme of that level should be prioritised—which is because the creators of the game that subject pertains to were British, with the manual writer likely American. I’m only for consistently applying the principle of “authorial intent”.<br>RE Yoshi’s Island golf course: And the aforementioned point finally brings me here. In the absence of any obvious physical clues that would tie the course to one island or another, IMO it’s best to turn to the Japanese name (as the game’s creators were Japanese), which staunchly ties is to the, uh, “Yoshi’s Island” Yoshi’s Island. Also, I admit I find strange how you're fixated on this one-shot level in a spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house and you think the way you identify it completely topples the plethora of arguments made in support of the proposal. Case closed. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:36, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::RE: RE Garden Grab: A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it, and your interpretation of how it happened is not something you could know for sure without word from the developers.<br>RE: RE Smash rebuttal: BubbleRevolution was the one called it a "smoking gun" when bringing it up in the pre-proposal discussion. I'm not going to sift through every comment on this page but that's the one I remember.<br>RE: RE general issue of distinction: "Likely" doesn't mean "true". We can't know without confirmation how they really feel about this topic - all we know is that English has never distinguished between the two.<br>RE I'm making stuff up: No, I'm not. This isn't like Chestnut King where it's every language ''but'' English - this proposal is built around Japanese-specific lore that was removed from not just English, but from just about every other language it seems. Also, the argument that there is a "sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers" exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that nor have I implied such a ridiculous thing, only that supporters are thinking from a Japanese perspective and not a global one. The one making stuff up here is you, not me.<br>RE: RE Yoshi's Island golf course: I find it strange that you feel the need to bring up that ''Mario Golf'' is a "spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house" when that's literally most of the franchise by now. Also, case closed? This proposal's still ongoing, and it's currently not going in the proposal's favor. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 23:21, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ::RE: RE Garden Grab: A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it, and your interpretation of how it happened is not something you could know for sure without word from the developers.<br>RE: RE Smash rebuttal: BubbleRevolution was the one called it a "smoking gun" when bringing it up in the pre-proposal discussion. I'm not going to sift through every comment on this page but that's the one I remember.<br>RE: RE general issue of distinction: "Likely" doesn't mean "true". We can't know without confirmation how they really feel about this topic - all we know is that English has never distinguished between the two.<br>RE I'm making stuff up: No, I'm not. This isn't like Chestnut King where it's every language ''but'' English - this proposal is built around Japanese-specific lore that was removed from not just English, but from just about every other language it seems. Also, the argument that there is a "sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers" exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that nor have I implied such a ridiculous thing, only that supporters are thinking from a Japanese perspective and not a global one. The one making stuff up here is you, not me.<br>RE: RE Yoshi's Island golf course: I find it strange that you feel the need to bring up that ''Mario Golf'' is a "spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house" when that's literally most of the franchise by now. Also, case closed? This proposal's still ongoing, and it's currently not going in the proposal's favor. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 23:21, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::"''A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it.''" I'd say it does. Mario Party 6 doesn't credit anyone from outside the main development team for the game's graphics; even if NoA were the ones to dictate that radishes be replaced with carrots during product testing, the onus was still on Hudson--the game's creators and those closely in touch with NoJ--to make the change. Conversely, a mere localisation team claims no real authorship of the product, certainly not a lot more than any given licensed guide. There ''has'' to be a hierarchy for the sources used on the wiki, because it's ridiculous to give supreme credence to Nate Bihldorff et al. when they didn't create the game. "''Also, the argument that there is a 'sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers' exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that [...]''" You accused the supporters for slanting their views solely towards the constructs of Japanese developers (let me just quote you again: "''For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric''"). This is so far from the truth that my response, apart from being obvious snark, can't be perceived as any more ridiculous. You backpedalled on your statement to claim a gotcha is what you did. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:03, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | ::::"''A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it.''" I'd say it does. Mario Party 6 doesn't credit anyone from outside the main development team for the game's graphics; even if NoA were the ones to dictate that radishes be replaced with carrots during product testing, the onus was still on Hudson--the game's creators and those closely in touch with NoJ--to make the change. Conversely, a mere localisation team claims no real authorship of the product, certainly not a lot more than any given licensed guide. There ''has'' to be a hierarchy for the sources used on the wiki, because it's ridiculous to give supreme credence to Nate Bihldorff et al. when they didn't create the game. "''Also, the argument that there is a 'sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers' exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that [...]''" You accused the supporters for slanting their views solely towards the constructs of Japanese developers (let me just quote you again: "''For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric''"). This is so far from the truth that my response, apart from being obvious snark, can't be perceived as any more ridiculous. You backpedalled on your statement to claim a gotcha is what you did. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:03, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::''Mario Golf'' 64 actually takes a lot of ''Yoshi's Story'' elements, even outside of that course. In {{ | :::''Mario Golf'' 64 actually takes a lot of ''Yoshi's Story'' elements, even outside of that course. In {{media link|Mariosstar.png|this}} scene art for the "Mario's Star" course, for example, we can see Cheep Cheeps and flowers with ''Story'' designs intermixed among other things from different games. As such, it seems like they chose to make yet another reference to the then-most recent game in the ''Yoshi'' sister franchise, but it ended up being left fairly vague due to the limitations and lack of gimmicks. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:40, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | ||
'''@ Koopa Con Carne''': I expressed my opinion and didn't imply the way you'd expressed yours was in bad faith, so I don't appreciate your claim I'm being "disingenuous". This is about splitting an article on a fan wiki for a video game series, what ulterior motives do you think anyone has here? | '''@ Koopa Con Carne''': I expressed my opinion and didn't imply the way you'd expressed yours was in bad faith, so I don't appreciate your claim I'm being "disingenuous". This is about splitting an article on a fan wiki for a video game series, what ulterior motives do you think anyone has here? | ||
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Either way, as a result, every proposal like this (cf. [[Prince Froggy]]) is going to end in a stalemate which is unsatisfying for both sides, because it's all essentially based on personal preference (not necessarily about canon, but more the importance of canon over simplicity) and overspeculation. As there's no clear policy reason for doing this, there's little here which is explicitly right or wrong, so this all just comes across as argument for the sake of argument. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 11:52, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | Either way, as a result, every proposal like this (cf. [[Prince Froggy]]) is going to end in a stalemate which is unsatisfying for both sides, because it's all essentially based on personal preference (not necessarily about canon, but more the importance of canon over simplicity) and overspeculation. As there's no clear policy reason for doing this, there's little here which is explicitly right or wrong, so this all just comes across as argument for the sake of argument. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 11:52, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:If this is an "English wiki," why do I see it being cited on Japanese forums? Anyway, apologies for not being active with this, finals snuck up on me and the others are doing a swell job of articulating the arguments, and I prefer not to get heated myself these days. Still, I don't think it's a speculative stretch to say that {{ | :If this is an "English wiki," why do I see it being cited on Japanese forums? Anyway, apologies for not being active with this, finals snuck up on me and the others are doing a swell job of articulating the arguments, and I prefer not to get heated myself these days. Still, I don't think it's a speculative stretch to say that {{media link|Yoshi's Island (overview).png|this island}}, {{media link|Yoshi's Island place YIDS.png|this island}}, and {{media link|YoshislandDS.png|this island}} are the same while {{media link|Yoshi'sIslandSMW.png|this island}} is different, especially since the creators of the games in question never seemed to consider them all that similar in the first place. Crafted World is just about the introduction, anyway. I want to defer to BubbleRevolution's comment about "would these be merged in the first place if the localized name ''weren't'' different?" [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:47, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::Your "ulterior motives" question came straight out of the left field. I can only assume it's in reference to a specific comment I left on Porplemontage's talk page some time ago (one which I already admitted to have been slightly overblown), in which case it's yet another piece of writing taken out of context. I contribute to the wiki often and with enjoyment, and I like to argue here, so indeed it's impossible for me not to display a smidgen of emotional involvement in such a heated discussion--however, I consider myself a passenger through and through. Realistically, I'm in no way affected by either outcome nor do I have a reason to insinuate that the opposing side is involved in some sort of conspiracy. That's inane.<br>Back to the topic: I encourage you to re-read my latest response to 7feetunder. Firstly: nobody is making any case for the Smash trophies being the end-all, be-all source of information. Talk about strawmanning. "''This still doesn't provide any reason as to why the two Islands have been split into these two arbitrary lists - the only real reason for this appears to be aesthetic similarities [...]''" And here it is, a fundamental misunderstanding or refusal to consider certain views. No, categorically "aesthetic similarities" isn't the main thrust; it's the perception from the side of the ones who first named those islands. "''Your point about the Wiki only being English because it's a lingua franca isn't correct and you only need to visit the Main Page to find out why - we are listed as the English Wiki on the [[MarioWiki:Mushroom World Encyclopedia|Mushroom World Encyclopedia]], alongside the German Mario Wiki and Italian Mario Wiki, and that we '[cover] the Mario franchise from different areas of the world'.''" Cool? What does this have to do with anything? My claim was that the language info is conveyed in shouldn't be used to twist information to appeal to the addressee's own world view. Language itself is neutral to this franchise's history. Never once have I claimed to advocate for a multi-angled, worldwide presentation of information. All I and some other users really do is push the idea of "creators know best about their creation". That's it. I feel like people here lose sight of that easy principle simply because, more often than not, there exists a language barrier between us English-speaking fans and said creators, and we unfruitfully tangle ourselves up in that notion.<br>Anyway, I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself here. In the spirit of what Bazooka Mario said above, I'll let you have the last word on this. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:54, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ::Your "ulterior motives" question came straight out of the left field. I can only assume it's in reference to a specific comment I left on Porplemontage's talk page some time ago (one which I already admitted to have been slightly overblown), in which case it's yet another piece of writing taken out of context. I contribute to the wiki often and with enjoyment, and I like to argue here, so indeed it's impossible for me not to display a smidgen of emotional involvement in such a heated discussion--however, I consider myself a passenger through and through. Realistically, I'm in no way affected by either outcome nor do I have a reason to insinuate that the opposing side is involved in some sort of conspiracy. That's inane.<br>Back to the topic: I encourage you to re-read my latest response to 7feetunder. Firstly: nobody is making any case for the Smash trophies being the end-all, be-all source of information. Talk about strawmanning. "''This still doesn't provide any reason as to why the two Islands have been split into these two arbitrary lists - the only real reason for this appears to be aesthetic similarities [...]''" And here it is, a fundamental misunderstanding or refusal to consider certain views. No, categorically "aesthetic similarities" isn't the main thrust; it's the perception from the side of the ones who first named those islands. "''Your point about the Wiki only being English because it's a lingua franca isn't correct and you only need to visit the Main Page to find out why - we are listed as the English Wiki on the [[MarioWiki:Mushroom World Encyclopedia|Mushroom World Encyclopedia]], alongside the German Mario Wiki and Italian Mario Wiki, and that we '[cover] the Mario franchise from different areas of the world'.''" Cool? What does this have to do with anything? My claim was that the language info is conveyed in shouldn't be used to twist information to appeal to the addressee's own world view. Language itself is neutral to this franchise's history. Never once have I claimed to advocate for a multi-angled, worldwide presentation of information. All I and some other users really do is push the idea of "creators know best about their creation". That's it. I feel like people here lose sight of that easy principle simply because, more often than not, there exists a language barrier between us English-speaking fans and said creators, and we unfruitfully tangle ourselves up in that notion.<br>Anyway, I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself here. In the spirit of what Bazooka Mario said above, I'll let you have the last word on this. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:54, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::The "ulterior motives" comment was only referring to the implication of disingenuinty and the wider assumptions that people are only opposing because it clashes with their personal canon, neither of which really felt warranted. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 13:18, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | :::The "ulterior motives" comment was only referring to the implication of disingenuinty and the wider assumptions that people are only opposing because it clashes with their personal canon, neither of which really felt warranted. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 13:18, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Not sure if this is particularly helpful, but the islands also have different names in Chinese and Korean, predictably enough. Those two seem to follow the Japanese names rather closely most of the time, when other languages tend to be more based on the English translations. Somewhat inconsistently, in the case of, say, French and German, but yeah. So the Japanese and English names are the more interesting ones here, it's no surprise they're the ones being brought up... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) | :Not sure if this is particularly helpful, but the islands also have different names in Chinese and Korean, predictably enough. Those two seem to follow the Japanese names rather closely most of the time, when other languages tend to be more based on the English translations. Somewhat inconsistently, in the case of, say, French and German, but yeah. So the Japanese and English names are the more interesting ones here, it's no surprise they're the ones being brought up... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) | ||
I also looked over at the [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/ Mario Portal character profiles] to see if Yoshi's mentioned both Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island, but his profile only seems to mention the former. Then I looked at the story on [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/world/index.html the portal's Super Mario World page], but while that page does mention Yo'ster Island, the page also states that the story is directly taken from the Japanese manual.<br>I don't think this is to say that the two islands are the same, but I feel it would've been more conclusive evidence that they are different if the two islands were mentioned in the same paragraph on the Mario Portal, but that doesn't seem to be the case. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:14, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | I also looked over at the [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/ Mario Portal character profiles] to see if Yoshi's mentioned both Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island, but his profile only seems to mention the former. Then I looked at the story on [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/world/index.html the portal's Super Mario World page], but while that page does mention Yo'ster Island, the page also states that the story is directly taken from the Japanese manual.<br>I don't think this is to say that the two islands are the same, but I feel it would've been more conclusive evidence that they are different if the two islands were mentioned in the same paragraph on the Mario Portal, but that doesn't seem to be the case. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:14, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Nintendo as usual has a functional approach: what matters is that it is the island of the Yoshis, and in case specific references (like in the case of the Booster Course Pass/Tour course that is specifically based on ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'' rather than any other Yoshi platform game). That's why it's so hard for us to decide on this kind of split. It also doesn't help that, despite ''Super Mario World'' being iconic, its own Yo'ster Isle with its unique look hasn't featured a lot in material directly by Nintendo so far, with Yoshi's House being its only actually recurring element, even the course was rather based on the original ''Yoshi's Island''. One even wonders if that world map look of Yo'ster Isle in ''Super Mario World'' wasn't functional as well, with Yoshi's House being the only element that was meant to look like it looked in-game.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 00:28, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | :Nintendo as usual has a functional approach: what matters is that it is the island of the Yoshis, and in case specific references (like in the case of the Booster Course Pass/Tour course that is specifically based on ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'' rather than any other Yoshi platform game). That's why it's so hard for us to decide on this kind of split. It also doesn't help that, despite ''Super Mario World'' being iconic, its own Yo'ster Isle with its unique look hasn't featured a lot in material directly by Nintendo so far, with Yoshi's House being its only actually recurring element, even the course was rather based on the original ''Yoshi's Island''. One even wonders if that world map look of Yo'ster Isle in ''Super Mario World'' wasn't functional as well, with Yoshi's House being the only element that was meant to look like it looked in-game.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 00:28, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | ||
It probably doesn't matter, but I thought I'd write how I'm looking at this... So, first, Super Mario World happens and the first world in the game is Yo'ster Isle / Yoshi's Island. Then comes Yoshi's Island, and the game's title screen being this big panorama of a large island with these big mountains and with the name "Yoshi('s) Island" in big letters. It screams "what you are looking at is Yoshi('s) Island", and after that, this island is pretty much established as the place where Yoshis live. So what are the appearances of the original Yo'ster after this point? Super Mario RPG takes practically nothing from the game Yoshi's Island, so the island here is basically just a Super Mario World reference. The Melee stage is obviously a Super Mario World reference too. And then there's Partners in Time, whose island doesn't use the usual design from Yoshi's Island onward, which seems to be deliberate considering practically every appearance of "Yoshi Island" looks pretty much the same from afar. And that's it, that's all the Yo'ster. As for the names, they're different in Japanese and the same in English. Chinese and Korean follow the Japanese version here, while the European and American translations follow the English, which is par for the course... The Japanese and English names are the main point of interest here. Sorry, this is such a mess of a comment. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:44, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | It probably doesn't matter, but I thought I'd write how I'm looking at this... So, first, Super Mario World happens and the first world in the game is Yo'ster Isle / Yoshi's Island. Then comes Yoshi's Island, and the game's title screen being this big panorama of a large island with these big mountains and with the name "Yoshi('s) Island" in big letters. It screams "what you are looking at is Yoshi('s) Island", and after that, this island is pretty much established as the place where Yoshis live. So what are the appearances of the original Yo'ster after this point? Super Mario RPG takes practically nothing from the game Yoshi's Island, so the island here is basically just a Super Mario World reference. The Melee stage is obviously a Super Mario World reference too. And then there's Partners in Time, whose island doesn't use the usual design from Yoshi's Island onward, which seems to be deliberate considering practically every appearance of "Yoshi Island" looks pretty much the same from afar. And that's it, that's all the Yo'ster. As for the names, they're different in Japanese and the same in English. Chinese and Korean follow the Japanese version here, while the European and American translations follow the English, which is par for the course... The Japanese and English names are the main point of interest here. Sorry, this is such a mess of a comment. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:44, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | ||
