Editing Talk:Wing Cap

'''Wing Cap cameo on Rayman Legends'''

I was watching a video from Rayman Legends on Wii U, and when Rayman has the Mario costume on him and press "A" to glide, his head takes the form of the Wing Cap. Just thought it was noteworthy in the article.

--[[Special:Contributions/189.186.213.142|189.186.213.142]] 23:48, 4 September 2013 (EDT)John Doe
:It's already mentioned on the [[List of Mario references in video games#Rayman Legends (Wii U)|references list]]. [[User:GBAToad|GBAToad]] ([[User talk:GBAToad|talk]]) 00:12, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

== "Wings" as an item ==

{{talk}}
So on [https://cdn02.nintendo-europe.com/media/downloads/games_8/emanuals/nintendo_ds_21/Manual_NintendoDS_SuperMario64DS_EN.pdf page 18 of the English instruction booklet for 64DS,] the section describing Wing Mario has "Wings" for a header and shows screenshots of both Wing Mario and the feather item. The article currently seems to treat "Wings" as the name of the feather item. However, [https://m1.nintendo.net/docvc/NTR/JPN/ASMJ/ASMJ_J.pdf the respective page of the Japanese manual] is headed as 羽根マリオ (''Hane Mario'', Wing Mario), decidedly ''not'' referring to the feather. Personally, I feel the feather could be considered an iteration of [[Cape Feather]], given the forms are fairly similar in function, the [[Super Mushroom]] in that game turns them into [[Mega Mario]], and the [[Super Leaf]] also has two forms associated with it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:44, May 1, 2020 (EDT)
:Are you talking moving the Wings to a separate article or merging that information with the Cape Feather? I don't really I agree with either, since it's still just the Wing Cap. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 23:51, May 1, 2020 (EDT)
::I'm talking about moving the feather item (which itself is ''not'' called "wings" in any capacity that I can see) in SM64DS to Cape Feather. Super Leaf and Tanooki Suit can both make Tanooki Mario, after all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:06, May 2, 2020 (EDT)
:Actually the first line in the 羽根マリオ box is 「羽根を入手すると」 "By obtaining the wings", so "Wings" is an appropriate name. Compare to Power Flower box to the left (「パワーフラワーを入手すると」). [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 06:08, May 2, 2020 (EDT)
::Wait a sec, 羽根 can mean both "feather" and "wings". The line actually be "By obtaining the feather". [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 06:55, May 2, 2020 (EDT)

== What to do with "Wings" ==

{{TPP}}
I'm quite surprised that I found this by browsing around, but I think it's about time we deal with this misinterpretation.

It's considerably odd that the Wing Cap and the "Wings" from ''64 DS'' are considered the same thing, and to me, it's just two different powerups giving the player the exact same form. So I think we should break it down like this:
*'''Split {{fake link|Wings (''Super Mario 64 DS'')}} into its own article.''' This is my preferred option, given that it's still a distinct powerup despite giving the player the same form, as was mentioned before.
*'''Move the info over to [[Cape Feather]].''' On the other hand, given that there's some evidence connecting the powerup to the Cape Feather, I'm going to throw in this option as well. I'm not opposed to this option either.
*'''Do nothing.''' Literally that.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Archivist Toadette}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' October 23, 2020, 23:59 GMT

===Split Wings (''Super Mario 64 DS'') into its own article===
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} My preferred option.
#{{User|DarkNight}} Although it could be a Cape Feather, I personally think it would work better as its own article.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. It is separate from the Cape Feather, as well.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
#{{User|1337star}} I'm also fine with this option.
#{{User|Benjaminkirsc}} Per all. All wings should have their own article for more info.

===Move the info on Wings to Cape Feather===
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Second choice.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per my thoughts in the above section.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} I like this option the most, since it looks like a cape feather and I think it could easily redirect to this section.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Something really screwy seems to have happened here - the item is clearly depicted as a feather, but the translators don't seem to have picked up on that or translated out of context, resulting in an alternate meaning of ''hane'' being used (as mentioned in above section). It looks like there is supposed to be wordplay with the ''hane'' item being used to transform into ''Hane Mario'' that doesn't really work in English. As for why I'm picking this option, several reasons. First, the Cape Feather (''Manto Hane'') is [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-VAAFJ.pdf also] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/common/pdf/CLV-P-SAAFE.pdf known] as the Feather (''Hane''), and as this chiefly occurs in appearances without Cape Mario, it seems like the "Cape" part of the name was intentionally dropped in this game. It doesn't make much sense to me that this item would be considered separate if the Cape Feather and ''Mario Kart'' Feather are already considered the same thing. Second, when its block is broken, it falls similarly to the Cape Feather from ''Super Mario World'', which is distinctly different from how the original Wing Cap lands in ''Super Mario 64''. It's subtle, but if 1 UP Heart is separate from 1-Up Mushroom (both in appearance and its motion in most games), the same logic applies. Third, I think there is a bit too much overlap in the first option since "Wings" seems to nebulously refer to both the item ''and'' the form. It's possible they had the multiplayer forms for the other characters in mind, but again, the item is clearly a feather. Fourth, given [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario World (SNES)/Sprites#player-hane-QX0W-hane.OBJ|what]] [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario World (SNES)/Sprites#player-hane-TEST-0.OBJ|we]] [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario World (SNES)/Sprites#X-Q-X-1W-hane.CGX|know]] [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario World (SNES)/Sprites#X-Q-X-hane-TEST.CGX|now]], I can't help but feel like the feather giving wings is some sort of in-joke. Something of note is that Mario Slot and Super Mario Slot include the original Cape Feather design, but given the original ''Super Mario Bros.'' artwork featuring the original design of Bowser is also shown on the slot machine, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Regardless, you can ''technically'' say the Wing Cap still appears in the game - on Wing Mario's head. Basically, Feather/Wings seems to be in the same boat as King Boo/Big Boo.

===Do nothing===
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} It being a remake of ''Super Mario 64'', I see it as a redone Wing Cap, and thus not really something different. Though, there are differences that are mentioned in current page in a paragraph. But with them being minor, I personally prefer this option over the just splitting it.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I'm skeptical that the Wings are meant to be the same as the Cape Feather. It doesn't actually resemble any of the Cape Feather's in-game appearances besides being a feather, and has a different name in both Japanese and English. As for giving the Wings their own article, I agree with Yoshi the SSM and Alex95's thoughts, <s>and also this would be consistent with the handling of [[Keronpa Ball]].</s>
#{{User|Alex95}} - It is still functionally the Wing Cap, just without the "Cap" part to make it fit the other characters in Versus Mode and to distinguish it from the basic caps. From a development view, it makes sense, as you wouldn't have to model four different caps for four characters, you could just have the one item work for all of them. Moving the information to the Cape Feather doesn't make sense to me as, while functionally similar, the Wing Feather is clearly meant to be the Wing Cap.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Yoshi the SSM and Alex95. While the power-up does take on a different form in the remake, it still gives the same effect. I feel how the article covers any slight changes is fine.
#{{User|1337star}} My prefered option, [[Talk:Cape Feather#Put Super Mario 64 (DS) info somewhere else|per myself from almost eight years ago]], but anything that doesn't re-merge this with Cape Feather is fine.
#{{User|ChompworksEngineer}} Per Yoshi the SMM and Alex95. It seems unnecessary to split it when the Wings item is the same thing as the Wing Cap except for design.
#{{user|TheDarkStar}} - per all
#{{User|Keyblade Master}} Reconsidered my vote after reading these responses.

===Comments===
By the way, it shouldn't be "Wing (''Super Mario 64 DS'')," it should be "Wings (''Super Mario 64 DS'' item)." The manual always refers to it in plural even when singular would make more sense, though it also calls the form "wings." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:55, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
:No, that's a descriptive name. The fact that the manual also calls [[Balloon Mario]] "Floating Power" is a testament to that. That said, yeah, plural "Wings" is correct. {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 19:58, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
::It's still a name that is used for multiple contexts, descriptive or otherwise. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:18, October 9, 2020 (EDT)

@Keyblade Master Not necessarily. The feathers float down in the same way, and aside from Cape Mario having the earthquake thing, Cape Mario and Wing Mario work almost exactly the same. Also, note my point on the Super Leaf being used for Raccoon Mario and Tanooki Mario yet being the same item. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:20, October 9, 2020 (EDT)

Regarding the Keronpa Ball argument, it appears "Kuromame" stemmed from an unofficial guide. As such, until we get word of what an official, SM64-centered guide calls them, I would advise against using it as basis for other arguments. For all we know, it could be Keronpa just like SM64DS. After all, as ''many'' people seem to forget, Fire Chomp in SMB3 appears as a faceless black orb except when spitting fire, and considering SM64's graphic system, enlarging it seems a more economical alternative. But I digress. The point is, it's currently shaky to use for an argument for another subject. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:57, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
:Interesting - I was under the impression that it was initially an entirely different subject before explicitly being changed into a Flame Chomp for the remake. Assuming we can't find a source for that it might be better to merge it with Flame Chomp outright. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:51, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
::My thoughts exactly. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:49, October 11, 2020 (EDT)
:::I should add that we ought to also probably find out what the official name of it is in a Japanese ''Super Mario 64 DS'' guide, since the current foreign reference comes from the ''Super Mario 64 DS'' internal filename, and same goes for Snufit. I believe we linked to a scan that contained both, but the source is no longer available. ''As I recall'', it seems right, but I don't want to rely on memory if it can be helped. My theory is that "Keronpa Ball" is derived from what seems to be the ''Super Mario 64'' source asset name for it, "<tt>wan_ball</tt>", but for now, let's put this on hold until the name from one or both official guides is confirmed. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:11, October 16, 2020 (EDT)

FWIW, some people seem to be treating Wings as a manual-only name, but it appears in-game as well. When first getting Wings as Mario, the tutorial text that pops up starts with "With Wings on his cap, Mario can take to the skies!" -- [[User:1337star|1337star]] <sup>([[User talk:1337star|Mailbox SP]])</sup> 17:09, October 12, 2020 (EDT)
:Thanks for the info. Will note accordingly depending on the outcome of the proposal. {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 17:12, October 12, 2020 (EDT)

Regarding the "same thing except for design" argument, this also isn't true. Aside from the different names, the cap falls to the ground and moves like a mushroom, the feather floats down just like the cape feather. This is like saying the Tanooki Suit in SMB3 and the Statue Leaf in SM3DW are the same except for design. Also, in that case, you might as well consider character-specific Power Flowers to be the same as SM64 caps. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:37, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
:That example isn't 100% comparable, though. The Statue Leaf never outright replaced the Tanooki Suit in an SMB3 remake. Had the Wings appeared in a completely different game and provided the Wing Mario form rather than just replacing the Wing Cap for a 64 remake, I would be fine with splitting it. The Power Flower is a completely different matter altogether as it's very clearly one item that just has different effects depending on the character who happens to pick it up. Using the arguments here to merge the Power Flower simply can't work at all, since to make it work it would have to be merged with the Metal Cap and Vanish Cap at the same time, while still retaining its own article for Mario and Yoshi's powers, which would be a clear violation of once and only once and do nothing but confuse readers. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:01, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
::(I forgot to mention the Super Mushroom for Mega Mario, but your argument works to counter that already.) I still feel the fact that it's treated as separate from the "main" character abilities and can still only be used by Mario outside of the multiplayer shouldn't be understated. Given its limited use, it still easily ''could'' have been a Wing Cap, but the fact they used a feather (which isn't the same thing as a wing; one is avian hair, the other is an avian arm) leads me to not see any benefit in keeping them merged. At least mentioning the fact that outside of multiplayer, Wings boxes give Power Flowers is enough of a difference to not be redundant to have its own article. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:10, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
:::Wing boxes? What you are talking about concerns the boxes (! Blocks and ? Blocks). And they are already separated. Also, as already mentioned, they just couldn't make it a cap for the remake. The design of falling slowly seems reasonable for a feather (and not for a cap). In either case, this is the game where they made (for example) Cavern of the Metal Cap into [[Behind the Waterfall]]. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 14:34, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
::::It concerns what comes out of the boxes. The ? Blocks that contain Wings only do so with Mario (aside from multiplayer), so that is code that calls upon different entities depending on the character present, with one of said entities being the Wings. Since Mario has his own Power Flower ability and this is distinct from that, this is thus treated as a separate "type" of power-up than the vanish or metal in this game, thus in that sense differentiating it from the original as well, just in the opposite direction than vanish and metal were. If that makes sense. Sorry if it doesn't, I'm not good with wording abstract concepts. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:46, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
:::::Yeah, this argument doesn't really make sense. Like, the Vanish Cap and Metal Cap were already coming out of different color boxes from Wing Cap in 64. 64DS decided to change this to different characters and just made one box. Even still, this argument, at best, tries to distinguish Wings from Power Flower, which already is separated. At least, how I am viewing it. In either case, the changes they did to 64DS makes sense. And, it makes sense for Wings being on the same page as Wing Cap. That is what I am saying, anyways. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 15:14, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
::::::I don't see why the Wings only coming out of a block when Mario hits it makes it warrant a separate article - it's a simple case of a useless item not coming out of a block and instead being replaced with something that can actually be used. Also, you say it could have easily been a Wing Cap, but I completely disagree since it exists in multiplayer. It would have been awkward for Luigi, Wario, or Yoshi to collect an item that is clearly specifically designed for Mario. There's no way around that since there's no way for the game to know which character is going to pick it up. At this point I'm convinced that the Wings were merely a design choice to make it neutral for all characters who can collect it. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:45, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::Then why would, instead of using wings as a power up (which had [[Wing (Super Mario Bros. Special)|been]] [[P-Wing|done]] [[Yoshi's Wings|before]]), they use a feather that acts suspiciously like the feathers in SMW from its own behavior to the power it grants only having functional differences in places where it is more or less difficult to implement in 3D (ie "flapping doodads on head" is easier to render in limited 3D than [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoFlowInCGI a moving cape], the earthquake thing wouldn't work for SM64's gameplay at all, the cape attack would be basically redundant with him already having physical attacks, while both forms have the "downward momentum for flight" mechanic)? I think a generically-named replacement <small>(Wings)</small> for an item <small>(Wing Cap)</small> that grants a form <small>(Wing Mario)</small> suspiciously similar in function to a form <small>(Cape Mario)</small> caused by an item <small>(Cape Feather)</small> essentially identical to said replacement <small>(Wings)</small> means that either the item from the other game <small>(Cape Feather)</small> should be merged with the replacement <small>(Wings)</small> or all three separate, but not keep the replacement <small>(Wings)</small> merged to the origin counterpart <small>(Wing Cap)</small> that the ''item itself'' is nothing like at all. (On a related note, we haven't merged Invincishroom from MLSS with "Invincibility Mushroom"/Poison Mushroom from MLSSBM, which granted is more of a plot item than an actual "power-up." I know MLBISBJJ had some item changes too, something about cheese I think?) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:50, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::Er, I think this conversation got jumbled up a bit, since the whole time I've been talking about Wings/Wing Cap, not Wings/Cape Feather. I ''highly'' doubt that either the Wing Mario form or the Wings item was meant to be Cape Mario/the Cape Feather since there's no evidence to that besides being suspiciously similar and I won't be convinced otherwise. As for the Invincishroom, that's a bit of an odd case since 1. Both mushrooms were already pre-existing items, and 2. It's a confusing retcon since it's been split into two items - the Invincibility Mushroom is now what the item was supposed to be, the Poison Mushroom is now the item Mario got in the original game. Now that it looks like Keronpa Ball is on the way to being merged with Flame Chomp, that can't really be used as precedent either... (By the way, the Cheese items in BJJ work like the Syrups, but are exclusively used on Bowser) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:13, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::I covered Wing Cap/Wings too, yeah. What I said there was that the ''items themselves'' have ''nothing'' in common beyond what they change Mario into. They have different designs, different names, act differently when released from the blocks, are released from a different kind of block anyways (note ! Switch and ? Switch also get different pages), and are not all found in the same locations anyways. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:20, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::Alright, I think I see where we are now. While I do agree that the Wing Cap and Wings are separate items to an extent, the Wings were only introduced in a remake to replace the original Wing Cap and haven't returned since, with the Wing Cap's effects or otherwise, so I feel it's best to keep them here. In my opinion that's the best approach for things like this. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:39, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::Yeah. They do have different names between 64 and 64DS, as well as Cape Feather. Even Japanese names where 64 is Hane Boshi, 64DS is Hane, and Cape Feather is Manto hane. But then there's Waluigi Time's point right before mine. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 18:50, October 13, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::In the ''Mario Kart'' games, it's just Hane, just like how it's simply "Feather" in English there. Note it ''also'' doesn't give a cape. I suppose another option there is to treat that like Super Mushroom and MK's Mushrooms, though this would need merged with the MK page in that case given how many unrelated subseries the Mushroom page covers. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:36, October 16, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am convinced. Separating Wings should only be done if it is merged with Cape Feather. So, I removed the vote there. However, I still think that Wings and Wing Cap should be on the same page. Namely besides added locations, it is in the same places. Also, in 64DS, there are signs in Bob-mob Battlefield and Shifting Sand Land that day the following: “You can fly if you’re wearing the red Wing cap! Put the cap on, then triple jump to take off. You can fly even higher if you blast out of a cannon wearing the Wing cap!” Which is interesting as other signs (like the sign about Metal before the gas area) were changed to reflect the remake. Although I didn’t actually check the original to confirm that it was word for word perfect. BOB sign is past the bridge, near the teleported, btw. But in either case, cap isn’t capitalized in the remake. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 23:22, October 18, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::::The equivalent in the N64 version seems to be this line: “If you get the Wing Cap, you can fly! Put the cap on, then do a Triple Jump--jump three times in a row--to take off. You can fly even higher if you blast out of a cannon wearing the Wing Cap!” Alternately: “When you put on the Wing Cap that comes from a red block, do the Triple Jump to soar high into the sky.” So the DS version rewrote it slightly, though in context, the "Wing cap" could be interpreted as the cap that appears on Wing Mario's head, as I've indicated above. Also, I must point out the obvious - the red blocks are a type of ! Block in the N64 version and ? Block in the DS version, and they have separate articles despite generally being in the same locations. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:18, October 19, 2020 (EDT)