Editing Talk:Vivian

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:::::::Ah, good point—especially with Goom Goom. He isn’t saying that to be rude or anything. Okay, that point wins me over: The third interpretation (that Vivian is cis gender) is false. Thanks for the discussion! —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 00:45, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Ah, good point—especially with Goom Goom. He isn’t saying that to be rude or anything. Okay, that point wins me over: The third interpretation (that Vivian is cis gender) is false. Thanks for the discussion! —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 00:45, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
:If you don't mind me necroposting a bit since I noticed some rewrites since my last few edits, I'm actually really happy some of the points mentioned prior were debunked. For a while I was of the opinion that "Vivian was probably meant to be an otokonoko, mostly because I don't trust 'she looks like a girl but she's really a boy' to have been written in good faith about a trans woman," but the remake has really cleared a lot of the air about the intent behind her in the Japanese text. Which is good, because it means I don't really need to play devil's advocate in my edits anymore. I do think the simplest explanation is "Vivian was always intended as a trans woman, but being written by presumably cis writers with limited understanding of LGBT culture, the terminology ended up being really confused at first". And based on that, you ''can'' argue in bad faith that Vivian was meant to be a crossdresser (not an otokonoko because the term was coined after the game was released — which I genuinely didn't know about, so that dents a hole in that). As a trans woman I was genuinely kind of dreading the remake because I was worried they'd repeat the same mistakes, but it seems abundantly clear now that they do not want her to be interpreted that way, and I think we should barely give it the time of day, if at all. By now I would honestly move toward not representing that side at all. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 08:30, July 9, 2024 (EDT)
:If you don't mind me necroposting a bit since I noticed some rewrites since my last few edits, I'm actually really happy some of the points mentioned prior were debunked. For a while I was of the opinion that "Vivian was probably meant to be an otokonoko, mostly because I don't trust 'she looks like a girl but she's really a boy' to have been written in good faith about a trans woman," but the remake has really cleared a lot of the air about the intent behind her in the Japanese text. Which is good, because it means I don't really need to play devil's advocate in my edits anymore. I do think the simplest explanation is "Vivian was always intended as a trans woman, but being written by presumably cis writers with limited understanding of LGBT culture, the terminology ended up being really confused at first". And based on that, you ''can'' argue in bad faith that Vivian was meant to be a crossdresser (not an otokonoko because the term was coined after the game was released — which I genuinely didn't know about, so that dents a hole in that). As a trans woman I was genuinely kind of dreading the remake because I was worried they'd repeat the same mistakes, but it seems abundantly clear now that they do not want her to be interpreted that way, and I think we should barely give it the time of day, if at all. By now I would honestly move toward not representing that side at all. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 08:30, July 9, 2024 (EDT)
::I agree that it is a bit weird for the article to shift into "rumor-debunking mode" like that. Maybe that stuff could be moved to [[List of rumors and urban legends]]? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:52, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

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