Editing Talk:Vivian

{{FATALK}}
==Gender==
Okay, I think we need to discuss her gender before making another overhaul, as it is tedious to search out every pronoun and replace them.  Here are the problems as I see them:
*'They' is not proper grammar for referring to one person. It may be acceptable in colloquial speaking English, but never in written English.
*'She' is a problem, because in the original Japanese version Vivian is not a girl. (Proof?)
*'It' is unacceptable when referring to people.  "It" is demeaning and insulting, and should never be used when referring to a person. (And is often frowned upon when referring to a pet/animal when the gender is knownn)
*S/he, or he/she is cumbersome, as is writing Vivian over an over again.
I hope we can resolve this quickly, as it is a very petty thing to argue over. 
[[User: Goomb-omb|Goomb-omb]]

:I feel 'it' is only insulting when it, lol pun?, is intended to be insulting. 'They' is not necessarily improper in speech, but here I see what you mean. S'he or he/she is worse than writing the name constantly. [[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]

Wait, how did we handle this with Birdo's article? We should do the same with this one, as I really haven't seen any complaints about Birdo's page yet. -[[User:Moonshine|Moonshine]]
:We used Birdo's name a lot and 'it'.[[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]
::Lol, there are some complaints about Birdo's article.  Birdo is currently referred to as "it"--which I don't think is appropriate for Vivian. [[User: Goomb-omb|Goomb-omb]]
:::Vivian is a she. She kisses Mario. {{User:MegaMario9910/sig}}
:Is that sarcasm? [[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]
::::Males can kiss other males, you know.  Both Bowser and Booster have kissed Mario.  (Although I do agree that she would be the best choice in this case ) [[User: Goomb-omb|Goomb-omb]]
:Well, at this point I think we should address Vivian as a "She" in the article except for the "Gender Controversy" section, which should remain the same. Besides, the general consensus of the readers most likley associate her with being as female, and also because Vivian was even called a she on her catch card in SPM (which has been her most recent appearance. -[[User:Moonshine|Moonshine]]
:Yes, but it is due to this conflict that we should not refer to such characters with a gender. Also, that's American translation. It has been proven Vivian is known originally as male anyway, the problem with referring to such characters as female. [[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]
::According to the article, there is CONTROVERSY about Vivian's gender in the original Japanese version, not that Vivian is explicitly male.  I feel that "it" i less acceptable here than for Birdo because Birdo is more of a 'creature', and Vivian is more of a 'person', and people are never referred to as 'it'. [[User: Goomb-omb|Goomb-omb]]
:How is Vivian not a creature? Vivian is quite obviously not human. [[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]

But she is sentinent. Besides, people, c'mon: VIVIAN IS FEMALE! she is called female by all other characters in PM2. It is only in the Japanese game that she is male, and this is an ENGLISH wiki. We should still mention that she was male in Japan, but other than that, what is this argument for? - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]

:I agree with this, we've adapted content to be American anyway. Take the MKWii vehicles for example, we changed names like "Rally Romper" and "Aero Glider" to "Tiny Titan" and "Jetsetter" Doesn't American content (somehow) win out in things like these? -[[User:Moonshine|Moonshine]]

.....this conversation leads down an extremly bad road (trust me, I know). This is an English wiki, so the English names/definitions take precedence. This works for the Vivian article, but those other things are controversal, because they are english too..... - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]

Besides, didn't the other Shadow Sirens call her a girl a few times? {{User:MegaMario9910/sig}}

I think referring to Vivian as female throughout the article is fine as long as it is first acknowledged in her bio at the top of the page that she is a male. [[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]

:Fair enough.-[[User:Moonshine|Moonshine]]

FD... what? she's not a male. - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]
:But she is. Vivian is acknowledged as female by other characters because her appearances leads them to believe so. That's the fact, if I'm not mistaken.[[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]

But wait, her OWN sisters call her female. Heres how I understand it: Vivian is a male in the japanese version of the game. Goombella's tattle says so. HOWEVER she is female in all other versions. - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]

Wait wait wait wait wait ''wait'' FD, I hate to argue, but I really think you're wrong on this. EVERYONE in the english version calls her female. Her gender was changed when she moved overseas: it happens a lot, actually. - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]

Uhm, it is said Vivian is originally male, so she is. There's nothing wrong with stating that Vivian is actually male, regardless of nation, because she is... Confusing, but correct. No one should have a problem with the facts, and since we are still referring to her as she throughout the article, it is correct. [[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]

....... confusing is right. She is only male overseas: in North America, she is female. So, basically, she is not "actually" anything, but a character whose gender changes between games/versions. - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]
:What Ultimatetoad said. Plus, what you had on the article was too confusing anyway. {{User:Toadette 4evur/sig}}

Thats another thing: readers will be confused if the article refers to her as both male & female. - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]
:Moonshine fixed it. {{User:Toadette 4evur/sig}}
::Is Vivian really male in the Japanese version, or is there confusion in the Japanese version? I thought the three of them were referred to as majotchi or whatever, and that that was a female term?[[User:Goomb-omb|Goomb-omb]]

There is confusion in the japanese version, but the tattle log calls vivian male. And the current version of the article is incorrect as well: Listen, the gender of the character was changed. She is not "referred to as female in other regions to avoid confusion": in other regions, she '''is''' female. - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]
:Actually, she's a boy in the Japanese version; she's just mistaken as a girl due to her appearance. She' female in all other regions. {{User:Toadette 4evur/sig}}
::So can't we just have it as "she", since she's a female in more regions than she's called male? {{User:MegaMario9910/sig}}
:::We're trying, but FD09 is trying to convince everyone into believing that she '''is''' male. (despite the fact that she's female in other regions) {{User:Toadette 4evur/sig}}
:::It's settled then.  If someone wants an article calling Vivian a male, then go make a mariowiki.jp :P [[User:Goomb-omb|Goomb-omb]]

::Oh my gosh... I never thought this would happen with ''Vivian''. Come on people, be serious. '''We are an English-speaking wiki, and Vivian is quite definitely female in English-speaking countries!''' {{User:CrystalYoshi/sig}} 20:37, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

There's what... four different sections talking about the same thing? Anyway, I just want to ask if anyone knows what the capture card from the ''Japanes''e Super Paper Mario says. That is, if it uses a male pronoun, female, or neither. If it uses neither, darn. If it uses a male pronoun, continue the argument. But if it uses female, then that either means they decided to change it and pretend people would forget about it, it ''was'' an insult by Beldam which confused Mario and his party, or some other third thing.--[[User:Topmonhit|Topmonhit]] 03:01, 23 July 2009 (EDT)
:The silliest part of the four section thing is that new comments are put in every one of them, as opposed to the latest one. The Japanese SPM card idea is smart, though even if they retconned the male thing, we'd still include it - just like how we include Birdo's original portrayal. Not doing so would be an oversight, as we want to be as thorough as possible. The argument on the matter is closed; the gender stuff is staying, and even if there's ''hundreds'' of sections complaining about it, it's not gonna change. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 02:14, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

Since I've actually played the original, maybe I can clear up a few things. Yes, the manual plainly states that Vivian looks like a girl but is actually a boy. The article mistakenly claims that Goombella confirms that Vivian is female, that needs to fixed. She calls them 'sisters[?]' in her letter. Which is likely a reference to their first encounter in the Boggly Woods. (Which is quite different in the English version, so let me sum up it up: Beldam completely flips out when Vivian introduces them the Three Shadow <i>Sisters</i>, says that they're the Three Shadow <i>Siblings</i> and swears to punish Vivian later.) --[[Special:Contributions/94.22.49.215|94.22.49.215]] 17:56, 12 March 2013 (EDT)
:Thanks for the info. I changed the page to try to make it clear that she's not an actual female, just that her sisters' tolerance of her gender identity seems to have increased (the Spanish version maintains this). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 18:16, 12 March 2013 (EDT)
::Thank you. I was just about to link a screenshot of the ending here, for further proof: http://i.imgur.com/3xAVltw.jpg (Goombella only refers to Vivian by name during the whole scene, not by any gender pronoun.) --[[Special:Contributions/94.22.49.215|94.22.49.215]] 18:24, 12 March 2013 (EDT)
:::Perfect! I added a link to it as a reference on the article. Thanks so much! - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:25, 12 March 2013 (EDT)

Here is proof that vivian is female in japan
The US version of the game makes no mention of this insult and Vivian is referred to as a 'she'.

The English version unambiguously refers to Vivian as female throughout the game. This could have been done to prevent confusion with the following point...
Traditionally and even today,
calling a woman a man is an insult, and Beldam was trying to insult Vivian

. Beldam was clearly trying to insult Vivian there, and implying that she was unfeminine would have been a shocking insult for Vivian (at least, it would be in Japan). Going back to the first point, it can be argued that the insult was removed because the possibility of it being taken the wrong way was too great.
The description and tattle logs are biased in nature.

After all, Vivian was only called a 'brother' after Mario and co. heard that comment. Remember that Paper Mario is a humo(u)rous series, and humor poking fun at Vivian's perceived lack of femininity would have been okay in Japan (but once again, open to misinterpretation in the United States). Calling Vivian the youngest "brother" could be the game's way of mocking Vivian if they were a women.
There are no other references to Vivian being male in the Japanese game

. Nobody else in the game refers to Vivian as male. Vivian identifies as female, being "the youngest sister" and all. Even if she were biologically male, Vivian identifying as a woman is reason enough to support their being female.
The collective name for the Shadow Sirens in Japan roughly translates to female sorcerers.

Mixed-group names typically tend to be more masculine; for example, in Spanish, once a group has a single male in it, it must be referred to in the masculine plural "ellos" and can only be called in the feminine plural "ellas" if it is made only of woman. A similar situation occurs in Mandarin, where a mixed-gender group is referred to using the masculine plural 他们 (ta1men) and can only be referred to in the feminine plural 她们 (ta1men) if it is made only of women . Japanese being such a gender-oriented language, it would be odd for a group with one male member to be referred to by the name "The Sorceresses", especially if Beldam was intent on "calling Vivian out" on their being male.
Which side is correct? There is no consensus as to whether Vivian is male or female. Personally, I feel there is no hard-hitting truth. There are those oddball people who say Vivian is a hermaphrodite, genderless, or intersexual, but there are few arguments to support those views. I personally consider Vivian to be female due to having first played the American version of the game, but I could accept a male Vivian as well. In any case, there is no need for ridiculous flame wars over this subject (as have existed).{{unsigned|Grand Master Gamer}}

:Different localizations depict her differently: Beldam isn't saying Vivian's unfeminine in the Japanese version - she literally spells out that Vivian is a boy. Trying to say that Goombella's tattles are biased by what she heard rather than telling the truth is ''way'' to speculative: wiki policy is to report the facts as they are, and the fact is that the Japanese tattle says Vivian is the younger brother, whereas Vivian herself considers herself a "sister" - being one sex physically but identifying as another makes you transgender, and to simply say "she's female" is to ignore the full story. The English version whitewashes this plot out because Japan is a lot more liberal about LGBT issues than numerous English-speaking nations: the fact that folks are constantly trying to censor this page is testament to that. So yes, in the English version, Vivian is female, plain and simple, but in other versions, including the original Japanese, she is male-to-female transgender, and the article reflects that. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:00, 1 April 2014 (EDT)

Beyond getting every fact straight, she should be referred to as she, because it is disrespectful and rude to refer to anyone as anything other than their preferred pronoun. She may not be real, but she is depicted as trans, and we should be respectful of that. Her struggle may only be a work of fiction, but it's all very real for some people, like myself. {{unsigned|VivianShadowSneak}}

==How Could She Not Be Female?==
That's just freaky. It seems EXTREMELY obvious by her appearance that she is female, and she is attracted to Mario. I doubt Nintendo would create a homosexual character...I can't imagine them doing that.

Also, only her 1st battle stats are there...

{{User:Dom/sig}}

:Homosexual would mean that one has attraction for a person of the same sex, but Vivian is (in the original) obviously a male who wants to be a female, which makes her some kind of transgendered character (like Birdo). Nintendo (and Intelligent Systems) are Japanese companies, and in Japan, characters with alternate sexual orientations are common in popular culture, there are even a whole categories of anime and manga focussing on characters of this kind. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 11:34, 26 June 2008 (EDT)


Hmm, fair enough...that's very confusing that the Japanese version has a different perspective on this character (avoided using "he" or "she.") I think that when they translate the game to English for us people, they should keep things the same unless they make absolutely no sense in English. Obviously that would sound a bit weird to us with our different culture, but maybe they changed it to avoid controversy.

{{User:Dom/sig}}

:Four Words, or one abreviation: the ESRB.  Them and that wonderful "suggestive themes" blanket statement. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 01:47, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

I personaly belive that due to the fact that most regions refer to Vivian as a female, that should make her/him a her. However, because in Japan she is a he, and Nitendo is Japanese, Vivian should be a male. Her and or His name is Vivian, which is a boys name, as well as the apperance of a girl, makes Vivian a girl. Possibly.{{unsigned|Nik Schemel}}

Thanks for clearing ''that'' up. >_> I can't even tell which gender you support. {{User:Twentytwofiftyseven/sig}} 18:52, 24 December 2008 (EST)
:Don't be sarcastic, 'tis not nice. Anyway, if she's biologically male but identifies with being female, that makes her transsexual (though "transgendered" works too). According to the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, transsexuals should be identified with the gender ''they'' identifies ''themselves'' with (see [http://www.glaad.org/media/guide/transfocus.php here]), meaning there is no reason why Vivian can't be called a "she" in the article. Same goes for Birdo. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:23, 24 December 2008 (EST)

:::Why are we under any obligation to follow those guidelines?

::Again, very good point.  I would also like to note that there are not any "gendered" pronouns in Japanese (such as "he" or "she"), which can complicate translating games into other languages that contain such pronouns (like English). -- {{User|Son of Suns}}

:::Actually, there is 彼 ''kare,'' as well as 彼女 ''kanojo,'' which mean he and she, respectively.  But they aren't common.  Actually, Japanese has a lot of pronouns with genders, it's just that pronouns in general are not very common. {{User:Twentytwofiftyseven/sig}} 01:51, 26 December 2008 (EST)

::::Right, totally. So they probably don't appear in video games that often. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}

Wow, everyone forgets this...
At the trouble center, the trouble by Goom Goom the Goomba (Looking for a Gal)
We find out that when you try to hook them up, the reason for their incompatibility is and I quote "Whoa! You sure are cute...But um... That shadowy goth thing is a bit... (pauses) Creepy! There, I said it!" (end qoute)
Vivain's reaction to this was (quoting again)"You're not doing much to impress me either,bud!" (ending quote)
Thus proving the inevitable point that Vivain is a girl who got insulted by her sister Beldem by calling her a dude.
We can look it as a continuing joke as Luigi never being recognized by anyone, it's the same in Japan!!
Plus, in Super Paper Mario, she is referenced as a female as a catch card
(We gotta catch this early, otherwise is going to be the Birdo crisis all over again!)
I hope this settled the debate! --[[User:Cha0z Slayer|Cha0z Slayer]] 02:48, 29 November 2009 (EST)
:Is that a joke? Not only does that not settle anything, but if you wanted to settle this early you would've had to have replied over a year ago. lol wtheck [[User:ForeverDaisy09|FD09]]

::Honestly, got to react on this even though this is what, nearly 3 years old. Yes, Vivian is male in Japan, Spain and other dubs. Yes, Vivian would actually be Homosexual, even though he prefers to be female. The key thing here would be that Vivian is a guy, and has a crush on another guy, thus in that view, homosexual. Besides, Yoshi would also be considerd homosexual like that. So that would already be 3 Homosexual characters in the Mario games. Of course, not being able to imagine Nintendo to make Homosexual characters makes no sense, and honestly, kind of insulting as well. In Japan and Europe, homosexuality is common in media and culture. Let me state it like this, Nintendo does make and have a lot of homosexual characters, the odds of them being openly stated like that in American versions however, is slim. Hence why Japan and for example, Spain had Vivian keep his/her own gender. [[User:Dark Gamer|Dark Gamer]] 11:51, 10 December 2011 (EST)
:::Actually, if she's physically male but identifies as female, that makes her a heterosexual transsexual MTF female, not a homosexual guy ([[wikipedia:Transgender_sexuality#Sexual_orientation_labels|see here]]), and the female pronoun should be used when talking about her. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 22:47, 10 December 2011 (EST)
::::All I tried to say with that is that Nintendo does make Homosexual/Transsexual characters and doesn't have a problem with those, as in Japanese and European popculture, as it was being said earlier in this conversation how Nintendo wouldn't make any homosexual characters, which I found offensive to begin with, as it was being stated like it would be something odd. [[User:Dark Gamer|Dark Gamer]] 10:20, 11 December 2011 (EST)  

and the word in the video were bedam said to vivian  hombre thier is more then one meaning to this word and here are the meanings

Literraly means the Spanish word for "Dude", but is slang for homie or punk. Grand Master Gamer

==In Spanish==
At least in spanish (or is it "european"?) version, its told in the game that Vivian is a MALE that disguises as female. In the description of the character says it. Also, his/her sister talks about him/her as a boy. Goombella´s description does as well... {{unsigned|Drmgin}}
:I don't recall that in the German version. Looks like some translations decided to keep the original Japanese story while others changed it. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 16:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)
:Ok, yes. I remember that in the game his/her sister said that "he likes to think that hes a girl but hes really a boy". It seems that is not present in other european countryes.
[[User:Drmgin|Drmgin]] 12:40, 20 January 2009 (EST)
::It is. I have the French version. And if German and France call her as a guy, I think it's the same for other PAL regions. [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] 05:53, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

in the italian version is an ex male--[[User:Koopakingdomking|Koopakingdomking]] 18:20, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
==remove gender part==
I am thinking about removing the gender part.  I have researched this, and concluded:  Vivian was NOT a male in the JAP version.  Beldam's referral to her as a man was merely an insult.  It is an insult to say a female looks like a man.  [[User:JerseyMarioFreak|JerseyMarioFreak]] 00:15, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Vivian is indeed a girls name (Vivian Vance, I Love Lucy, anyone?)

And Walkazo, who gives a flying *CENSORED* what GLAAD says?  They should all be thrown in prison!!! [[User:JerseyMarioFreak|JerseyMarioFreak]] 00:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:That doesn't even make sense.  Not only is your comment extremely offensive, but the Mario Wiki is committed to having complete coverage of the Mario series in all its forms.  As her sex and gender change between versions of the game, we need to document this. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}
::Agreed. Although I hate to admit it, Vivian was a guy in Japan. Although that paragraph is somewhat cryptic, we need to include it in the article because it was part of the history of Vivian. {{User:Bloc Partier/sig}}
:::Okay, I rewrote the whole section, so hopefully it's a lot clearer now. I'm afraid I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, so I couldn't really comment on how they approach gender identity in their media (I know it's a bit more fluid and less squirrelly than in mainstream North America, but I couldn't find any solid references to cite on the matter, so I left it out). Hopefully the link to Wikipedia's bishounen article makes up for my Western outlook on transgendered pronoun usage. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==Another Quote, Possibly Better?==
I think instead of the quote used at the beginning of the article, we could use this one from Vivian. 
"Your name was stolen? I see... Well, I guess that happens from time to time..."
I think it is funnier and kind of tells how interesting the game gets :P If you all don't agree, that's okay. {{User|Im4Viv}}


If you would like, you can do it. Just edit the Template: Quote. It should look like this:

{{color|<nowiki>{{quote|I'm with [[Mario]] all the way! Today, [[Beldam|Sis]]...I'm going to punish YOU, you hear me?|Vivian|Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door}}</nowiki>|gray}}{{User:DaisyLuigi/sig}}

:Personally, the current quote sounds better and matches Vivian a bit more, as it's the time where she gets the confidence to finally stand up to her older sister. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

::I agree. {{User:DaisyLuigi/sig}}

==An answer from Nintendo?==
Came here after noticing a lot of discussion recently about Vivian. While most of it is in good taste, the strange argument over her gender is always brought up.
Maybe we can send an email to Nintendo using their Japanese support email? I don't see why they can't answer this question for us. (I did send NoA an email about this, shh... I got a response saying they can't answer questions relating to the Japanese release, but did confirm Vivian's description lists her as a girl) 
If someone fluent in Japanese can send Nintendo an email, we could resolve this gender debate. At the very least they'll see there's still interest in Vivian. {{Unsigned|KneesofJustice}}

=="References" not quite right==
This sentence from the "References" section isn't quite right, and I can't figure out how to change it: 'In the Spanish version of ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'', during her Tattle for Vivian ("''Bibiana''" in the localization), Goombella originally uses a female pronoun for Vivian ("''la''") but then corrects herself and uses the masculine pronoun ("''el''") instead: "''¡Es Bibiana! La más pequeña del Trío de las Sombras... Bueno... EL más pequeño [...]"''' "''El''" and "''la''" are articles, not pronouns, and this overlooks the feminine and masculine versions of "''pequeño''". I think something more like "Goombella originally uses feminine terms for Vivian ("''la más pequeña''") but then corrects herself and uses the masculine version ("''el más pequeño''") instead..." would probably be better. [[User:Karma|Karma]] ([[User talk:Karma|talk]])
:Thanks for catching that! I've fixed the reference to what you suggested. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:00, 1 April 2014 (EDT)

::''Comments removed by the administrators.''{{unsigned|Grand Master Gamer}}

:As I told you last time, Vivian identifying as a female makes her transgender in the Japanese and various PAL translations; close-minded reactions like this is ''why'' they had to censor it to just plain female in the English version. Beldam calling Vivian a boy was explicitly spelled out in red katakana: it's meant to be taken literally, and the Japanese LP I watched had the Japanese player taking it as such. The fact that so many different languages all maintain the "boy who identifies as a girl" point, yet giving it different spins, also show that it's true. In fact, in the Italian version, Vivian says that she's not a real sister, but feels like a woman and is proud of it too: can't get any less ambiguous than that. The facts speak for themselves, so please stop trying to argue otherwise (especially if all you're gonna do is cut and paste chunks of your older post, like you did here, which is bending rules): all it comes off as is transphobic ranting at this point, which has no place on the wiki. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:13, 9 May 2014 (EDT)

::''Comments removed by the administrators.''{{unsigned|Grand Master Gamer}}

:What? {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:55, 9 May 2014 (EDT)
:Beldam is a bully, sure, but you're the one who doesn't understand; her insults are ''meant'' to be taken literally; the language of her insults explicitly indicates this. Vivian is male, but prefers to be called a female. Beldam mocks this identification by calling Vivian a "man". This is not insulting Vivian's gender as you think it is; it's insulting her gender identity. Vivian has also said herself that she's male that prefers to be female ('kazo: "she's not a real sister, but feels like a woman and is proud of it too"). {{User:Mario/sig}} 00:11, 10 May 2014 (EDT) 

you don't know that was beldam being a bully buy saying that vivan she was being bully what part of that don't you under stand you troll.  Grand Master Gamer

this is what the gender part of her page should look like There is debate about her gender, as Beldam insults her by calling her a man in the Japanese version. The tattle log also says she is the "youngest sister er... brother." Though due to the use of "she" and "her" after the insult it is possibly intended to be a joke that Mario took the insult seriously.  you know how they like to make joke's in japan.  Grand Master Gamer  and User:Mario/sig  when i said troll i was saying that to User:Walkazo/sig  i was also in a bad mood at the time.  

::''Comments removed by the administrators.''

This Vivian b****** is all the result of some guy not understanding how Japanese pronouns and gender politics work. The character's gender was ambiguous as a running joke and the ONE mention of her being male was when her sister used a masculine pronoun to refer to her, which is extremely disrespectful to women in Japan.
{{unsigned|Grand Master Gamer}}


::'''Administrator Note:''' Most of the commentary made here by Grand Master Gamer has been removed by the admins as ranting that is of no constructive use to the article and is nothing but clutter here. Portions of it were even copied and pasted directly from the comments the user made at [[#Gender|the bottom of this earlier section]], which is essentially spamming the page. All that's been left intact for the record are comments that the user received a warning over, and responses by other users to the ranting. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:27, 12 May 2014 (EDT)

why is Vivian Beldam and her other sister are called sorceresses  that is a name for a female only group and Vivian is male in the japan version i just don't get it [[User:Mario&#38;Princess Peach|Mario&#38;Princess Peach]] ([[User talk:Mario&#38;Princess Peach|talk]]) 12:26, 23 June 2014 (EDT)
:In the Japanese version, Beldam corrects Vivian when she tries to use a female-only term at first (since she self-identities as female), but then later loosens up. In English, the transgender stuff's removed so Vivian's simply female and there's nothing more to it. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 11:17, 28 June 2014 (EDT)  

the thing I don't get is that in street fighter is that I heard that in the English version they made poison a   transgender and in japan she was female she why did they not keep Vivian as a transgender or a futa? Mario&Princess Peach


about Vivian being transgender do you mean that she is a transvestite or a futa in the Japan version i don't know with one she would be thought. Mario&Princess Peach

:She's a boy by birth but identifies as a girl, so neither (transvestites just dress as the opposite sex but don't consider themselves as being the other gender, and futanari is more like androgyny or hermaphrodism as far as I know), just transgender. To my knowledge, Nintendo's never said why they changed it, but the theory is that the English localizes didn't think it'd be appropriate in a kid's game for one reason or another. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:27, 28 June 2014 (EDT)


i was on a other cite and i saw a comment that said that Vivian Japan catch card for super paper Mario said that she was 100% female i have been looking to see if it was true but so far i have not find her Japan catch card {{User|Mario&#38;Princess Peach}}


ok then I was looking for info on a video game character witch is Ethel from fairy fencer f   and then I Shaw a  comment from Nintendo I clecked on the link and it toke me to rule 34 and the comment said that Vivian is 100% female   and people think that was the real Nintendo I mean way would Nintendo be on a site like that un less it's a fake account that is so what do you people think? 06:24, 11 July 2015 (EDT)[[User:I&#39;am King Shredder|I&#39;am King Shredder]] ([[User talk:I&#39;am King Shredder|talk]])

:Our article is accurate. If people wanna believe otherwise elsewhere on the Internet, that's their problem. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 12:41, 11 July 2015 (EDT)
::How many times will this dead horse be beaten? I'm thinking we should put these types of comments under forum talk because ''nothing constructive'' is going out of them and we're not going anywhere. People, ''shut up'' about Vivian's gender. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:33, 11 July 2015 (EDT)

== Catch Card ==
If it helps any, the Super Paper Mario catch card in question refers to Vivian as an オトコのコ, in this case meaning a boy who dresses like a girl. (It can mean either that (男の娘) or just (男の子) boy.)

The full text is:<br />

「ぺーパーマリオRPG」に<br />
とうじょうした　マリオのなかま<br />
火の魔法を　使う　キュートな　オトコのコ <br />
カゲ三人組という　てきの１人だった <br />

Introduced in Paper Mario: TTYD, one of Mario's partners.<br />
A cute boy crossdresser who uses fire magic.<br />
Was a member of the "Shadow Trio".

Here's the video I got it from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmnG1YznKq0 (at about 12:44; Vivian's card is #253)

So Vivian ''is'' "biologically" male. However, given how she uses female pronouns (アタイ) to refer to herself, she identifies as female. IMO, the correct thing to do is call her a "she".<br />

Again, IMO, the joke here is probably not that Beldam insults her, but that you see what you assume are three witch sisters, and the youngest breaks that pattern.
--[[User:Prankstercomet|Prankstercomet]] ([[User talk:Prankstercomet|talk]]) 06:12, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

:Thanks for the info, interpretation and reference. I've updated the Gender section of the article to include the Catch Card stuff. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:05, 27 July 2015 (EDT)

the thing is thought they if you think about it their are ways for Vivian to be called a male but be in fact female like at birth she is genderless and can be any gender she wants and their are other things that you guys did not think about I will leave you guy to find out
{{unsigned|50.101.48.236}}

:That's too much speculation about the nature of her species to be appropriate for the article. The wiki's for facts, not fanon. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 16:43, 2 August 2015 (EDT)
::When it comes to characters like these, gender identity is the only information we have. Her assigned sex (which can assigned at birth, unlike what you said, if I read it correctly) can be whatever, but if she identifies as female, we respectfully call her a female. Also, your comment is very difficult to understand, so please use proper grammar and punctuation if you intend to comment further. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 02:27, 3 August 2015 (EDT)

well grammar and spelling has all ways been my week point  so iam not the best when it comes to that sorry
{{unsigned|50.101.48.236}}

== vivian's gender edition 647 ==
so the gender section has some problems
<blockquote>In the Japanese version of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Vivian is depicted as a transgender woman.</blockquote>
yes, the character is transgender. she's a biological male who identifies as a woman. but the game doesn't actually treat her like that. she's routinely referred to as a male, both by other characters and by narration text
<blockquote>It is openly stated in Vivian's character description, which is translated as "One of the Shadow Trio, Vivian appears to be a girl but is really a boy." (in Japanese: 「カゲ三人組の一人だった　オンナのコのようで　ホントは　オトコのコ」). Additionally, Goombella's Tattle reads: "That's Vivian. Of the Shadow Trio, she's the youngest sister... er, brother." (in Japanese: 「『ビビアン』よ　カゲ三人組の一人で　いちばん下の妹　・・・じゃなくて　弟ね」)[1][2]. While Beldam uses the term "majotachi" (meaning a group of sorceresses) to refer to her, Marilyn and Vivian as a collective, she also objects to Vivian trying to call the collective 「カゲ三姉妹」 Kage Sanshimai, the "Three Shadow Sisters", correcting the name to the gender-neutral 「カゲ三人組」 Kage Sanningumi, the "Shadow Trio", reminding Vivian that she is an 「オトコ」 otoko, "boy", written in red katakana for emphasis[2].</blockquote>
the wiki acknowledges this, but the way the text is written makes it sound as if the game actually affirms vivian's gender identity at some unspecified point. i've never seen any evidence that this actually happens
<blockquote>However, in the end, Goombella's letter indicates that Vivian's choice to be identified as female is accepted by her sisters as part of their efforts to be nice to her after the events of the game[3][4].</blockquote>
in particular, this just seems to be totally made up. this is what goombella's letter actually says:
<blockquote>
bibian wa oneesan tachi no tokoro ni modorimashita<br>
''vivian has returned to her sisters' house''<br>
kage no joou ga taosaretu ima majorin tachi wa mou warusa wo suru ki wa nai you desu<br>
''now that the shadow queen has been defeated, it seems beldam and marilyn have no more desire to do evil''<br>
sore to majorin ga nidoto bibian wo ijimenai tte atashi ni yakusoku shite kuremashita<br>
''and beldam has promised me that she will never bully vivian again''<br>
kore kara wa shimai (?) sannin de nakayoku kurashite iku deshou<br>
''from now on, it seems they will live together happily as three sisters (?)''<br>
tama ni wa mario mo bibian ni aini itte agete ne<br>
''why don't you visit vivian once in a while too, mario?''
</blockquote>
as you can see, nowhere is it even implied that they're going to respect vivian's identity. in fact, there's nothing to imply that either the characters or the developers understand trans issues well enough to even know what that ''means''
<blockquote>
In her Super Paper Mario Catch Card, Vivian is described as 「キュートな　オトコのコ」, which is most likely meant to be interpreted as "cute otokonoko", a term for male cross-dressers in Japanese culture (「男の娘」, literally "male girl"), although there is ambiguity here since plain ｢男の子｣ otoko no ko, "male child", sounds the same, and the line itself is written in phonetic katakana script rather than kanji, which was likely done on purpose; either way, the emphasis is that she is cute, but also physically male[5]. 
</blockquote>
i disagree that "男の娘" is a more likely interpretation than "男の子". they're homophones, but 男の子 is a [https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%AD%90%22 more] [https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%A8%98%22 common] word than 男の娘 by several times. 

so yeah i don't know. i feel like people for some reason want vivian's story to have been some great empowering narrative for the trans community that got censored by noa, but... it's really not, and this is wishful thinking at best {{User:Twentytwofiftyseven/sig}} 20:07, 10 April 2016 (EDT)

For Goombella's letter the part where it says that "it seems they will live together happily as three sisters (?)" seems to have that slight implication of gender acceptance (if I recall correctly, didn't the Shadow Sirens correct 'Shadow Sisters' to 'Shadow Trio'?). But again, this was written by Goombella, not Vivian. For the gender identity, how would you rewrite it to prevent misleading writing? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:59, 11 April 2016 (EDT)

:i don't disagree that that is a possible interpretation, but i feel like it is kind of out of step with what the rest of the game was saying about her. like, if the writers intended to acknowledge her as a transgender character, i really don't think they would have said "''honto wa otoko no ko''" ("in reality [she] is a boy") in her profile on the menu screen

:regarding how to rephrase it, i'm not totally sure. i'm leery of the phrasing "Vivian is depicted as a transgender woman.". she certainly IS a transgender woman because she's a female-identified but biologically male person, but as far as i can tell the game never acknowledges that. now i haven't played the entire game through in japanese, so it's possible that there's a scene i don't know about where vivian's identity is affirmed. i doubt that, for all the reasons i've stated previously, but i'm not certain. what i ''can'' say for certain is that nothing the wiki cites justifies that position. i also think everything about the term 男の娘 (''otoko no ko'') ought to be excised. i really don't think there's any reason to imagine they meant this term rather than the more common homophone 男の子 (''otoko no ko''). especially considering that both ''otoko no ko'' and its female equivalent ''onna no ko'' are used together in vivian's original ttyd character profile

:also, there's something i forgot to mention in my previous post. the article treats it as an incongruity that beldam allows the shadow sirens to be referred to as "a group of sorceresses", but objects to "three shadow sisters". i think this is only incongruous in translation. ''majo tachi'' is the term translated by the wiki as "a group of sorceresses", but this translation is not completely precise. actually, it's more accurate to translate ''majo tachi'' as "a group conceptually headed by a witch". so the group can legitimately be described as ''majo tachi'' regardless of whether vivian is a sorceress, because its leader, beldam, is a witch {{User:Twentytwofiftyseven/sig}} 23:24, 12 April 2016 (EDT)

::I also think that's just one vague, unsupported line, but I'd imagine that's where the wiki romanticizing gender acceptance originated. You're right, the whole "in reality [she] is a boy" thing doesn't sound very accurate for a faithful depiction of a transgender character. I believe rather than saying "Vivian is depicted", we should add uncertainty to it such as "Vivian is depicted as a transgender woman, but the game never directly states it" or even "Vivian is strongly implied to be a transgender woman". I also agree, interpreting 「オトコのコ」 as 「男の娘」 (male cross-dresser) rather than the much more common 「男の子」 (male child) ''is'' an illogical stretch (the wiki even goes as far to emphasize by "most likely"), supported by its use in Vivian's original ''Thousand-Year Door'' profile. We can rewrite it to make a passing reference to the rarer 男の娘 but still strictly affirm and support 男の子.

::For the alleged inconsistency between Beldam's reaction to "group of sorceresses" and "three shadow sisters", I'll have to heed to what you said on the inconsistency that's a result of translation and interpretation. That is, we'll have to remove instances of that. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:56, 13 April 2016 (EDT)

:::on another note, i have looked back through the edit history, and it seems that the idea that beldam decided to respect vivian's gender identity is actually based on the spanish localisation. it was added [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Vivian&action=historysubmit&diff=1327374&oldid=1312675 here], moved into the gender section [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Vivian&action=historysubmit&diff=1420595&oldid=1420455 here], and re-attributed to the japanese script [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Vivian&diff=next&oldid=1420597 here]. the relevant line is "Y le prometió a Bibiana que no volvería a tratarla tan mal.", which means "and she promised vivian that she would not treat her so badly again".  the issue is that the spanish script uses the word "tratarla" in reference to vivian, rather than its masculine equivalent "tratarlo". smashfan regarded this as a typo, but walkazo believed it was a deliberate attempt to show that beldam had switched from using masculine grammar to using feminine grammar when addressing vivian

:::i think this is probably the result of misunderstanding. when smashfan added the spanish dialogue, they for whatever reason chose to surround the word "tratarla" in «guillemets». guillemets are sometimes used as quotation marks in spanish, so doing that sort of made it look as if goombella meant to imply that beldam had actually used the word "tratarla" when making the promise to vivian. however, [https://youtu.be/Zb9X3FSpeR4?t=2146 no guillemets are used for this line in the game]. additionally, one would not use the word "tratarla", meaning "treat her" when making this promise directly to someone. one would instead say "tratarte", which means "treat you" and is gender neutral

:::i'm not 100% confident of my spanish though, so i would like to have someone more fluent comment on the accuracy of what i've said here. but regardless of whether the spanish line was a typo or a deliberate implication, the japanese line definitely does not include any equivalent. the only feminine term in that line is "shimai" (sisters) {{User:Twentytwofiftyseven/sig}} 07:36, 13 April 2016 (EDT)
::::Yes, as 22 pointed out, this is not Beldam talking directly at Vivian but rather Goombella saying Beldam promised not to treat Vivian so badly. I don't think this is a typo but it's Goombella talking and it doesn't mean Beldam referred to Vivian as female. Indeed, if Beldam were talking to Vivian, she would have used "tratarte", so from that line it's impossible to know how does Beldam refer to Vivian. I hope this answers the question. --{{User:Henry Tucayo Clay/sig}} 13:56, 13 April 2016 (EDT)

since nobody has commented for a while, i drafted some changes to the gender section. some notes:
*not sure about the pictures. i thought i should include some pictures, since the current version has one, but in practice they might just look stupid. the current picture is even stupider, though, because the line it depicts wasn't even an insult in the japanese version, much less a gendered one. if we do keep the pictures, they should probably be replaced with higher quality versions, because right now they're both just frames from youtube videos
*i don't have a source for the german version. i just asked gabumon about it, and he said he thinks he remembers it this way. http://www.mariowiki.net/wiki/Barbara seems to bear him out, though. i'm sure there's some german lp of the game that we can cite, though
*i datamined goom goom's japanese dialog after bones mentioned it in chat. i don't have a video of him saying that
*i don't have any information at all about how she's depicted in the korean version, because i don't know anyone who speaks korean or is likely to have played the game.
*i think those are the only 7 languages the game has officially been released in 
*in the translations i tried to avoided using any gendered words except when the original script used them, because earlier i used the word "she" in a translation and nabber took it as something that was in the japanese script, but it wasn't. this is very hard because gendered words are much more common and more frequently obligatory in english than in japanese. as a consequence, some of the translations might sound slightly odd
{{User:Twentytwofiftyseven/sig}} 17:57, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
The OP here is right, the "transgender" bit is just fancruft that was being pushed by some freak somewhere on the internet. There was a similar rumor started about another minor Mario character (Birdo) which turned out to be bullshit as well and was never confirmed by Nintendo.

In the Japanese version, Vivian "identifies" as male, so the character is basically just an 'effimiante' male (aka a dandy, bishonen, etc) like Vega from Street Fighter; so this is really just like someone speculating the Vega in SF is "transgendered"; the fact that this trashy fancruft has been allowed to stay in the article is pretty pathetic, when it's pretty obvious that Nintendo themselves would deny it if it weren't for the fact that the Vivian character isn't notable enough for them to worry about.--[[User:Verita|Verita]] ([[User talk:Verita|talk]]) 01:42, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

==Attacks and Stats==
Suggestion to homogenize that table with the tables of the other party members?

http://www.mariowiki.com/Ms._Mowz#Attacks_and_Stats

http://www.mariowiki.com/Koops#Attacks_and_stats

http://www.mariowiki.com/Goombella#Attacks_and_stats

Vivian's table uses asterisks, an explanation, and (an arguable) opinion. All of that could be taken out. 

——01:35, 13 June 2016 (EDT)——
:Actually, I think the other party members' tables can use some adjustment. The hitpoints should be in a separate table since they don't relate to the attacks strongly. Otherwise, I applied the changes. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:50, 13 June 2016 (EDT)

== Trivia for Vivian's name in Spanish ==

Vivian's name in Spanish is "Bibiana", but the common translation for the name is "Viviana". Nevertheless I found out that there's a Spanish transgender woman called [https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibiana_Fern%C3%A1ndez Bibiana Fernández]. Could the translation also be a reference to irl Bibiana? Do you think it may be relevant enough to put it in the "Names in other languages" section?
--[[User:Agc96|Agc96]] ([[User talk:Agc96|talk]]) 12:04, 29 January 2017 (EST)
:It depends on how common that name is and how significant this person is. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 12:41, 29 January 2017 (EST)
::It's not relevant, since the character was never transgender in the Japanese version, and likely wasn't even literally a male in that version either (referring to a woman as a man is a cultural insult in Japan); this was all basically debunked and was never confirmed as official by Nintendo, only a handful of internet weirdos and pervs seem to want to call the character "transgender", so this should be completely removed from the article as defamation towards Nintendo, the fact that the false "transgender" references are allowed to stay is a disgrace and if I was Nintendo, I'd sue.--[[User:Verita|Verita]] ([[User talk:Verita|talk]]) 02:28, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
:::I was right lol https://twitter.com/polroc/status/1702660171737059808 --[[User:Agc96|Agc96]] ([[User talk:Agc96|talk]]) 19:28, May 26, 2024 (EDT)

== Article contains false information/fancruff regarding "transgender" ==

The Japanese version of the game does not state that the Vivian character is "transgender", it merely states that he is a "effeminate man" (aka a dandy, bishonen, etc). The "transgender" cruft is just original research devoid of facts; it would be like stating the Vega from Street Fighter is "transgendered" just because he displays some effiminate tendencies.

It's pretty obvious that this has never officially been confirmed by Nintendo and really just originates from some rumors and fancruft started by some internet weirdos, so it should probably be removed as defamatory.--[[User:Verita|Verita]] ([[User talk:Verita|talk]]) 01:38, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
:Also, for what it's worth, it's not even clear that Vivian was ''literally'' referred to as a man in the Japanese version to begin with; Beldam referring to a woman (Vivian) as a man in Japanese is culturally considered an insult, and the other in-game references are possibly just a continuation of this in-joke:

http://brokenbase.com/post/76043788098/is-vivian-from-paper-mario-transgender

Unless Nintendo has an official statement on it somewhere, this rubbish should be removed, since no one other than a handful of weirdos with too much time on their hands are trying to perpetuate this anyway; if I were Nintendo, I'd be suing for defamation that this is stated as some confirmed fact:

--[[User:Verita|Verita]] ([[User talk:Verita|talk]]) 02:18, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

::"Defamation?" How is it "defamation" if a character can be reasonably interpreted from explicit dialog to be transgender, to say they're transgender? I'm transgender, and I don't know what all the fuss you're going over is about. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:42, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
:::The entire explanation for the content is up above. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 09:13, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
:::Sorry, I kind of overreacted with my response given how much internet flaming has been raised over stuff like this, and it was excessive. My personal opinion is that Nintendo should officially confirm this before shoehorning it into the article, or else it would be just like stating that Vega from Street Fighter is "gay or transgender" just based on speculation.--[[User:Verita|Verita]] ([[User talk:Verita|talk]]) 17:01, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
::::FYI, unless you really have something to counter this point, bringing this stuff up is usually fruitless and actually goes against our [[MarioWiki:Courtesy|courtesy policy]]. Honestly, just best to avoid it. If Nintendo says something about this in the future, someone will make a note of it. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:04, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
:::::Well the "sources" in the article are just Youtube videos, and article I read (that I linked above) from another fan says he is unsure whether or not the game was literally saying Vivian is a man, or whether it was just an insult from Beldam; I'm not fluent in Japanese so I'm not sure; I just find it annoying that some folks are so obsessed with speculating on the 'sex lives' of minor video game characters from 10 years ago, I think the article should at least state that Nintendo's never officially confirmed anything rather than stating it as an 'offical fact' (e.x. there are fan theories that Vega in SF is gay, but since Capcom never confirmed it I don't think a SF article should state it as fact). But but fine, it's not worth arguing or insulting folks about.--[[User:Verita|Verita]] ([[User talk:Verita|talk]]) 17:08, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
::::::Sorry, but you're completely wrong on this: the first reference of the article is [http://www.fti.uab.es/tradumatica/revista/num5/articles/06/06central.htm an essay written by Francesca Di Marco], [[List of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door staff#Italian Localization|one of the Italian translators of the game]], which was then a Lecturer in Japanese Language and Modern History of Japan at the University of Perugia. In that essay she translated the sentences of the dialogue between Vivian and Beldam correctly and clearly stated what was the localization policy at the time, as well as the reasoning behind the Italian localization of said dialogue. By the way, transgenderism is explictily mentioned in said essay. So, there's that, more official than this you will hardly find, really.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:23, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

== Proposed rewrite of the "Gender" section ==

Let me precede by saying that, yes, I'm aware that this is a controversial concept that has been heavily discussed on this page in the past. But controversy of a subject should not get in the way of the wiki's factual accuracy. The text as currently written describes Vivian as transgender in the Japanese version of the game, a classification that shows a lack of understanding of subtle aspects of Japanese culture. Vivian is intended to be a ''[[Wikipedia:Otokonoko|otoko no ko]]'', a Japanese concept with no real Western equivalent (concepts like "cross-dresser" or "drag queen" are related but not identical). This is a male who dresses and sometimes acts like a girl, but still fully considers themselves to be male. It's effectively an extension of the modern Japanese fascination with the concept of ''[[Wikipedia:Kawaii|kawaii]]'' (which is often translated as cute but again has no real Western equivalent).  

Anyway, I've written a proposed rewrite of the "Gender" section of Vivian's page [[User:1337star/Work|here]] (For convenience, citations have been removed. In the final version on the page, the citations should be retained in the same places they are now). This integrates the term ''otoko no ko'' more fully into the text while still acknowledging that the Italian localization team opted to present the concept as transgenderism. In addition to this rewrite, I feel that information on Vivian's gender identity/lifestyle choices should be removed from the intro paragraph (in other words, cut the last sentence of the intro). It's really more of a trivia point and shouldn't be one of the first things the reader is told about the character. For comparison, [[Birdo]]'s article, which has far more complex issues related to gender, does not mention the subject at all in the article's intro. 

Thoughts on the accuracy of my proposed revision compared to what is currently on the page? -- [[User:1337star|1337star]] <sup>([[User talk:1337star|Mailbox SP]])</sup> 13:41, August 21, 2019 (EDT)
:I'd suggest integrating your findings with what is written in [http://www.fti.uab.es/tradumatica/revista/num5/articles/06/06central.htm this article], as it fully reports the reasons why the choices about the various localization were made. Keep in mind that the term ''otoko no ko'' was used in ''Super Paper Mario'', at the time the material they had could not be used to unambiguously infer that Vivian was an ''otoko no ko''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:29, August 21, 2019 (EDT)
::I skimmed that article but opted to ignore it as I'm not sure how we've come to the conclusion that the Francesca di Marco who wrote that article is the same as the one who worked on ''TTYD''. It is a rather common Italian name from what I understand.  Even if she is, I think she could really only be used as a reliable source on the thoughts of the Italian localization team, not the American team or the intentions of the original Japanese writers. 

::Nonetheless, what do you think of [[User:1337star/Work|Version 2]]? It integrates comments from that page while I think making it more clear it represents a decision from the Italian localizers and not the original intended portrayal of the character (if nothing else, the show of defiance against her sisters is at odds with her portrayal in the rest of the game). However, I personally would not be comfortable using this over Version 1 unless it can be more concretely shown that that article was written by the same di Marco that worked on ''TTYD''. I also implemented the references from the original page into both proposed versions. -- [[User:1337star|1337star]] <sup>([[User talk:1337star|Mailbox SP]])</sup> 10:38, August 22, 2019 (EDT)
:::Looking at [https://www.linkedin.com/in/fdimarco/ this resume], you can see that she is indeed her who translated ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (1998-2008 Localization Specialist in Japanese-Italian and English-Italian for Square-Enix, Nintendo, Pokémon Company, Codemasters, SCEE) and who wrote that article (2005–2009  SOAS PhD History of Modern Japan). Furthermore, while that article is indeed about localizations, your claim that it was exclusively related to the Italian localization is also incorrect, as you can see from this excerpt:
<blockquote>
The game was rated as suitable for those aged 3 and over in Japan, and it aimed to obtain the same rating in the US and Europe. After having noticed the problem, localizers changed the original text in an attempt to maintain a ‘Japanese flavor’ (an unusual inclination towards sexual references and a captivating intercourse among the three sisters) whilst avoiding mention of transgenderism. 
</blockquote>
:::Therefore, you now should take that article into account when talking about localizations, while of course in terms of what the actual Japanese text says, we need to rely on the original text, and as {{User|LinkTheLefty}} pointed out, there's some ambiguity that we can't solve right now.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:35, August 24, 2019 (EDT)

The phrase ''otoko no ko'' (オトコのコ) is also used right in Vivian's party member description: 「カゲ三人組の一人だった　オンナのコのようで　ホントは　オトコのコ」 (and in ''[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmnG1YznKq0&t=765s Super Paper Mario]'' as well). The katakana makes the meaning ambiguous - a quick search shows that Japanese websites go with either the kanji for otokonoko (男の娘) or boy (男の子), so I feel like the only way to really know what was meant for sure is to check an official guide or find a developer interview. The Italian translation article stating "In the original Japanese version of the game, ''it appears that'' Vivian is transgender." and further changing up the script to actually be more overt in the Italian version (e.g. “That’s true, you are two sisters… ''But I am a woman too now, and I’m proud to have turned into a woman!''” was a direct statement that simply did not exist in the original text and is a case where the English version was closer in tone) can easily lead one to think it was localized into a concept more recognizable to a western audience, or at least to remove the ambiguity. However, '''if''' Vivian is intended to be an otokonoko, I should point something out: in the scene where Vivian gets the name of their group wrong, instead of "Shadow Beauties" (in the English version) Vivian refers to them as the 「<span class="explain" title="さんしまい">三姉妹</span>っ」 (Three Sisters) - and then later, during the ending, Goombella (whose Tattle concludes that Vivian is the group's younger brother) makes a confused reference to this line in her letter: 「これからは　<span class="explain" title="しまい">姉妹</span>（？）<span class="explain" title="さんにん">3人</span>で　なかよく　くらしていくでしょう」 (''From now on, the three sisters(?) will live peacefully.''), though that question mark makes it inconclusive. Additionally, [https://legendsoflocalization.com/personal-pronouns-in-japanese/#atai Clyde Mandelin] seems to think that Vivian is supposed to be transgender and connects the use of the pronoun ''atai'', but he makes the mistake of using Flea from ''Chrono Trigger'' as another example (in that game, he gets ''offended'' at being called a woman, so it's made clear immediately that's not exactly the case). So overall, with current knowledge, I believe the game's meaning of ''otoko no ko'' was intentionally designed to be ambiguous. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:02, August 22, 2019 (EDT)

:Edited my proposed rewrite to take into account your points. I've also reduced it to a single version again since the Italian text alone is enough to support that Vivian is intended to be transgender in that version of the game. -- [[User:1337star|1337star]] <sup>([[User talk:1337star|Mailbox SP]])</sup> 12:40, August 22, 2019 (EDT)

== Changes and Rewording ==

I would like to propose changing the existing text "Mario is only able to use Tattle on her in Chapter 2." to "Outside of battle, [[Goombella]] can use [[Tattle]] on Vivian only when Mario first comes across the [[Shadow Sirens]] in [[Boggly Woods]] during Chapter 2."  Plus, can "On-field tattle" be shortened to "Field Tattle"? --[[User:Longliveaki|Longliveaki]] ([[User talk:Longliveaki|talk]]) 23:17, July 29, 2020 (EDT)
:<s>Wow, something that isn't about her gender for once.</s>
:Change applied. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 23:23, July 29, 2020 (EDT)

==References Section==


Can anyone explain why the actual references are put under the "references" section and not where the references are located on the actual page? That's just...that's not how we are supposed to be using them, especially if they are only used once on the actual page. And why do the references contain full-blown ''tables'' in them if all they are explaining is a few lines of text??? {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 13:17, January 21, 2023 (EST)

== Pronouns ==

Why does the article treat Vivian as transgender? He is called male many times in official Japanese narrative text, and is treated as a biological female in English. Why does the wiki article seem to intersplice these two separate treatments of the character into one seemingly-biased headcanon? The article, in English on an English wiki, seems to treat the non-English translations of the game rather than treat the original Japanese or the English translation as canon. It seems incredibly biased and bad-faith. Is this consistent with the policies of this wiki? We prioritize localizations in other languages to the original Japanese or the English? As I see it, he is a male crossdresser in the original Japanese, and a biological female in the English translation. Why does this English article on this English wiki seem to treat the foreign translations as the canon basis for the entire article? I read the article before posting, but maybe i missed some official revision. Please explain, provide arguments, or make the article less biased if I'm not missing something. {{unsigned|174.168.104.205}}
:The article doesn't prioritize the Japanese version, it merely notes it's the basis for all others by virtue of being original. The reason for feminine pronouns is that is how she is solely addressed in English, with a section to note how in Japan, she's treated deliberately inconsistently as trap-or-trans <small>(preemptively noting that, despite what some may claim, neither are slurs; I am the latter and am acquaintanced with a self-identifier of the former)</small>. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:51, June 27, 2023 (EDT)
::These discussions have been done to death, and dredging up this under the unsupported, flimsy accusations "bias", "bad faith" and so on, with no actual supporting evidence, doesn't lend this argument any credibility. We're not having it again. {{User:Mario/sig}} 01:47, June 28, 2023 (EDT)

== French and Spanish info ==

Writing this here just in case someone finds this useful in the future. While it's true that the French and Spanish translations mostly follow the original Japanese here, those languages have grammatical gender, which Japanese doesn't (I think?) have. From what I'm seeing from footage online, it seems that, in the French translation, Vivian is mostly referred to in the feminine, including by herself (obviously), except for stuff like Beldam's dialogue and Goombella's tattle (and even then she slips back into using the feminine halfway through the tattle). In the Spanish translation, the game narration uses the masculine, but Vivian still uses the feminine (Yoshi does as well after the Doopliss boss fight). This isn't a discussion-type section, by the way, it's just info. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:23, January 6, 2024 (EST)

== Did we just win? ==
In the Nintendo Life review we saw she was directly and obviously translated as transgender in her dialogue for the remake, this is HUGE and should be added to the article as soon as possible. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZPwyfIL_qU&t=327s {{User:Biggestman/sig}} 09:45, May 21, 2024 (EDT)

:Nah, I do not think so, it was already in the Italian version + I bet it's due to the "rainbow movement" being more popular than it needs to be -- IvanTarashenko🇧🇾🇧🇾 17:48, May 27, 2024 (MSK)
::The anglophonic world has certainly received a more inclusive depiction of Vivian. Also, please be more respectful. A significant portion of the community identifies as outside of cisgender heterosexual (I'm asexual myself) and I advise you to keep comments like this outside of the wiki. This is not up for debate. I will not say this again. {{User:Mario/sig}} 12:08, May 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::I apologize for sending a harsh statement like this. -- IvanTarashenko🇧🇾🇧🇾 21:49, May 27, 2024 (MSK)

== Did you really win ? ==

The dialogue box could also be interpreted as literally meaning that Vivian IS biologically female and is actually their sister, just that Beldam and co. all called her their brother because they wanted a brother.
That’s what I first understood when I read the dialogue box, and let’s be honest…
For a kid playing this game, chances are, this is what they will understand.
I sincerely doubt Nintendo would include something “this obvious” in a kids game made to be sold everywhere. This game would be banned in many Asian and African countries if they did do that. By looking at Nintendo’s previous track record of this (tomodachi life notably), I really don’t think they would do that, let alone make it this obvious. If you’re gonna mention the japenese version, than Vivian is likely based on a special type of japenese cosplayer (the same as the one the pokemon fezandipiti is based on). As for birdo, than i would like to note that Nintendo specifically says “he THINKS he’s a girl” (implying that Nintendo doesn’t believe in the concept that birdo can become female, like seriously if you were a transphobe and were describing a man who says he’s a women, AKA a trans women, that is LITERALLY what you would say”
Yeah I’m sorry guys, chances are, this is just another loss for you guys. Who known, we won’t until the game releases. [[Special:Contributions/31.219.81.139|31.219.81.139]] 22:19, May 21, 2024 (EDT)
:To be fair, the "he thinks he's a girl" was from the late 80s when that attitude on the subject was more normal. The way Viv's dialogue is written at the very least implies she's now dysphoric in the English version (even if they inevitably will censor the gender-nonconforming aspect for certain other countries), but keeping it out in the English version in ''this'' day and age would be a PR disaster for NoA just waiting to happen. Remember, they're based out of Seattle, which, to be blunt, is a very "woke-heavy" area, so that "PR disaster" thing goes doubly or even triply so. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:42, May 21, 2024 (EDT)
::While I can understand the doubts based on just a single screenshot, looking at the [https://mynintendonews.com/2024/05/21/review-paper-mario-the-thousand-year-door-for-nintendo-switch/ review the screenshot originated from], it actually directly addresses the changes to Vivian's dialogue: "Fortunately, in the Nintendo Switch remake, Vivian is now confirmed to be a transgender woman, even in the localization. While it’s not stated outright, it’s very directly implied when she says things like 'it took me a while to realize I was their sister…not their brother” when referring to her siblings.'" So, a little more nuance than just a single sentence saying "Vivian is transgender now" and slapping on a link to a screenshot labelled "Vivian is trans confirmed.png", but it still seems like this is the direction the localization headed. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 22:50, May 21, 2024 (EDT)

== "crossdresser" ==
"Vivian is inconsistently depicted as either a transgender woman or a male-identifying cross-dresser"
hey can somebody explain to me how you can be a crossdresser if you only wear a hat. that doesn't make any sense
[[Special:Contributions/68.235.36.209|68.235.36.209]] 23:56, May 24, 2024 (EDT)
:If the hat in question is feminine (which it is) and the only piece of clothing, then yeah that still makes her a crossdresser. She also wears make-up and styles her hair to be female too, which also counts. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 23:59, May 24, 2024 (EDT)
::By the way, where is Vivian depicted as "male-identifying"? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:44, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::That's what the original wording for bios indicated by using the otoko phrasing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:44, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::Hm, I see. Well, that phrasing is also present in the French and Spanish translations, right? And, since those languages have grammatical gender, Vivian consistently refers to herself in the feminine. Is her doing so consistent with the "male-identifying cross-dresser" description? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way, it's a question-question, because it's something I don't know about. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:00, June 5, 2024 (EDT)

== It is with great regret that I bring up Vivian's gender once again ==

In the article, it's stated "Vivian is referred to using the term ｢オトコのコ」, otokonoko; being written in katakana, this can be interpreted either as 男の子 ("boy") or 男の娘 (otokonoko, literally "male daughter", a Japanese-language term that refers to a feminine-presenting or cross-dressing man)."

Problem with this is that the GameCube release came out in 2004, and the first recorded usage of 男の娘 is 2006, for the event 男の娘COS☆H. The source for that is https://cir.nii.ac.jp/crid/1521699229975841408 although I have no way of accessing the article since I do not live in Japan, so I'm taking Japanese wikipedia's word for that here https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%A8%98#cite_note-FOOTNOTE%E6%A4%BF2015192-36

Assuming that to be true, I feel the section should be rewritten to remove the implied ambiguity - I'm pretty sure Nintendo doesn't have access to a time machine, much less one they specifically used to pull a slang term from 2 years in the future that no one would understand. Super Paper Mario did come out 6 months after that first recorded usage, but I don't imagine they'd be changing the context between games. --[[User:AgenderWitchery|AgenderWitchery]] ([[User talk:AgenderWitchery|talk]]) 12:26, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
:So is anybody planning on fixing this? The user above me is correct; it is completely impossible that what this article is claiming is actually true. [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 19:55, June 18, 2024 (EDT)
::Is there a better source for this claim than the Japanese Wikipedia. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:58, June 18, 2024 (EDT)
:::Forgetting Wikipedia for a moment... The term「男の娘」is itself just a pun on the word「男の子」, just with the last character changed, right? If the writers intended for it to be read as「男の娘」, surely they would have written the「娘」in kanji? That character is already used in the game's script. Besides,「オトコのコ」and「オンナのコ」are also used in the partner descriptions for Koops and Goombella respectively. So what, is Koops also "a feminine-presenting or cross-dressing man"? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 06:38, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
::::Yes, this is also true. There's no reason you'd ever read it as 男の娘 in kana, because the pun relies on the kanji. [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 12:18, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
:::The source linked is .ac.jp, which is used for universities in Japan. [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 12:18, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
:::::So if I'm getting this right, Vivian's portrayal was never a trap-vs-trans thing after all, simply the narration misgendering a transgirl because it was considered socially acceptable to do so back then. Does that about sum it up? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:04, June 19, 2024 (EDT)

== Admin note ==

'''We will not tolerate transphobic comments or concern trolling.''' If I see more disrespectful remarks made against them, your entire comment will get reverted. This is not negotiable. Thank you. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:17, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
:I agree with the spirit of this, but I don't really think the reverted anon's comment was "transphobic" (I myself am trans, btw, and I didn't see anything offensive to it). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:33, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
::It wasn't overtly transphobic but definitely appears to have been concern trolling, what with the "I don't get why this is so important to you" and so forth. Also speaking as a trans person, I've seen this kind of beating around the bush garbage dozens of times before. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 23:59, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
::Consider: why would an unregistered user make their first and only edit on a fairly well-known and currently relevant trans character's wiki talk page just to cast doubt on the idea that she's trans (an issue that has been retreaded countless times on this talk page alone dating back to 2008)? {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 00:05, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
:::I agree with that, I just wanted to point out that "transphobic" is not the right word. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:06, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::Hard disagree, it's just covertly transphobic rather than overtly so. ...In any case, this is a fairly immaterial discussion I suppose, since the comment's gone now anyways. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 00:19, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I'd have to say that anyone who refers to a transgender girl, implied or not, as a "biological man" (or throws around that term willy nilly rather than AMAB) knows exactly what they are insinuating, I see right through that bullshit, and we shouldn't need to tolerate that type of language on this wiki. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 00:21, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Much appreciated. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 00:28, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::-shrug- I use the phrase "biologically male" to refer to myself (and have never heard of this "AMAB" thing, nor do I particularly like how it looks), so I really don't see what the problem there is. But all right then. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:12, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Also he said he was a Muslim from the middle-east, so saying that a lack of knowledge on the subject due to one's cultural upbringing means they are "transphobic" comes off as more than a little xenophobic. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:43, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::In that same comment they state that Vivian isn’t a “real girl” (blatant overt transphobia), imply that the wiki is “woke” (I hope I don’t have to explain how this relates to a modern view of trans people in and of itself), and broadly engages in tactics commonly recognized as concern trolling and {{wp|sealioning}}. This person clearly had a basic working knowledge of trans people at least and mentioning their national origin frankly comes off as an attempt to justify blatant transphobia, and is significantly intellectually dishonest. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 10:53, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::I recommend continuing this debate on the associated user talk pages if you don't mind. {{User:Mario/sig}} 10:56, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::Sure thing, apologies. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 10:57, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
Sorry for butting in, but I want to add that the remake's English translation is still not quite as explicit about Vivian being trans as the Japanese version (they even removed a mention of it in her description). I mean, obviously that's what they were going for, just with more plausible deniability than the Japanese version. So if people playing the English version don't realize what Vivian's meant to be talking about, that's probably by design. No idea if that's what happened here though, I trust your judgment on that. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:01, May 29, 2024 (EDT)

== This is not true? ==

"In both her party profile in The Thousand-Year Door and her Catch Card in Super Paper Mario, Vivian is referred to using the term ｢オトコのコ」, otokonoko; being written in katakana, this can be interpreted either as 男の子 ("boy") or 男の娘 (otokonoko, literally "male daughter", a Japanese-language term that refers to a feminine-presenting or cross-dressing man).[9]"

The term "otokonoko" does not appear anywhere in TTYD.  It only appears on the capture card in Super Paper Mario. 
The remark about her profile in TTYD is also unsourced, (since it is not true) as the source is a youtube video of Super Paper Mario alone.

The text should instead read:
"On her Catch Card in Super Paper Mario, Vivian is referred to using the term ｢オトコのコ」, otokonoko; being written in katakana, this can be interpreted either as 男の子 ("boy") or 男の娘 (otokonoko, literally "male daughter", a Japanese-language term that refers to a feminine-presenting or cross-dressing man).[9]"
[[Special:Contributions/73.36.59.180|73.36.59.180]] 02:04, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
:The text of her partner menu in the original Japanese release is 
:カゲ三人組のー人だった
:オンナのコのようで　ホントは　オトコのコ
:Can be seen [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICg7waeOouc&t=12318s here] --[[User:AgenderWitchery|AgenderWitchery]] ([[User talk:AgenderWitchery|talk]]) 03:15, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
ah, yes... it is correct. [[Special:Contributions/73.36.59.180|73.36.59.180]] 01:41, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

== Should we represent each side? ==

I recognize this is a topic that has been brought up again and again—and again and again. However, ''because'' Vivian’s gender has been a subject of debate for a long time—“Is Vivian transgender, transvestite, or cisgender but victim to a Japanese ‘boy’ insult?”—would it make the most sense to mention each of these views on the page? The page currently represents the first two in a neutral manner but doesn’t appear to discuss the third option. I don’t know which position is the correct one—or if there even is one “correct,” consistently canonical answer—but since plausible arguments exist for each interpretation, shouldn’t each be in the article? —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 01:25, June 5, 2024 (EDT)
:I do not think there is a reasonable interpretation of the text that would lead to the third scenario being plausible. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:31, June 5, 2024 (EDT)
::Agreed. I don't think there's any need to indulge the "interpretations" of transphobic concern trolls on this wiki. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 13:18, June 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::In the original's JP script, perhaps it is a valid interpretation, ie "don't be such a boy" or something. In the remake's altered JP script, it's been clarified she's trans. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:02, June 5, 2024 (EDT)
::::The partner menu's "She looks like a girl, but is actually a boy" in the original doesn't leave much room for that interpretation. On one hand, one can definitely see it as a innocently clumsy way of describing her being transgender, but on the other, why would her be described that way if she was supposed to be a cisgender girl? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:33, June 5, 2024 (EDT)


::We don’t have official confirmation on either of the three interpretations; all we have is the source text—which differs between consoles and languages—plus the fans’ interpretations of the source text. In the original Japanese version, I believe all three interpretations are possible. Beldam’s reference to Vivian as “a man” in the original could be intended as an insult implying she’s ugly (as done in Japanese culture and in other cultures) rather than a statement of fact. The other references, such as the tattle, could be [https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/920182-paper-mario-the-thousand-year-door/50205289 referring back to the rude comments]. Evidence for this understanding includes the use of female terms like 魔女たち (majotachi) in the Japanese version, which at the time would have suggested Vivian is a (cisgender) female, as discussed [https://www.reddit.com/r/papermario/comments/btv7a9/comment/ep516xa/ here]. In the GameCube English and GameCube German version, language of being a “man” are absent. The removal of the terms in these localizations happened either to prevent confusion on what calling Vivian a “man” meant (under the third interpretation) or as a censoring reinterpretation (under the trans or crossdressing interpretations). In the GameCube Italian and Switch Japanese versions, by contrast, it’s clear that Vivian is a transgender female; this could also be viewed as a reinterpretation whether you hold to the cisgender view ''or'' the crossdressing view. In the Switch English version, Vivian appears to be transgender, but the language is less obvious than the Switch Japanese or GameCube Italian versions.
::Could we explain something along these lines in the article? I don’t think the third view should be dismissed as being held only by transphobic people, at least not when it comes to interpreting the original Japanese version. After all, unless Nintendo tells us how to interpret the source text, all we have are fan interpretations, which lead to three main views in the Japanese version. Let’s not exclude one of the three views simply due to assuming transphobic motives are behind it. —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 12:22, June 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::It's not about who holds what view, it's that the "third view" is just not consistent with the game's script. The partner menu calls her a boy, her catch card calls her a boy, so did the menu and card misunderstand Beldam's bullying as well? Again, one can see that as an innocently clumsy way of describing her being trans, but why would the game's ''menu text'' describe a cisgender girl as "a boy that looks like a girl" or "a cute boy"? That's a rhetorical question, by the way. It wouldn't, and it doesn't. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:19, June 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::But doesn’t the Japanese version of the game use female pronouns and terms to describe Vivian—such as including her in the word 魔女たち (majotachi), which refers to a group of sorceresses (females)? If so, this contradicts her being, in the games’ words, “a boy that looks like a girl.” The contradiction would be reconciled by understanding the menu text as not being said by an omniscient narrator. Generally, narrators and menus are omniscient, but in various Mario RPGs, this isn’t always the case. See, for example, Super Mario RPG’s monster descriptions, where even the first person is used at times. If we can’t reconcile the differences, we have a contradiction, don’t we? —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 23:50, June 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I feel like this is a little too speculative and would require more information, and more general familiarity with the Japanese language to know what was a conventional or artistically distinct choice in the script, before saying anything declarative. I would also be curious to know how the menu in TTYD regards other characters and material in the original Japanese release of the game. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:12, June 8, 2024 (EDT)
::::::The partner descriptions are pretty straightforward, for the most part. "A knowledgeable Goomba girl. She aims to become an archaeologist.", "A Koopa Troopa boy who wants to be strong. He has a girlfriend called Koopie Koo.", "Voluptuous body knockout! A cloud spirit who controls the wind.", "A newborn Yoshi Kid. Although he is small, he has quite an attitude." and so on. And I haven't even mentioned [[Goom Goom]], who, despite living in a cave in the middle of nowhere, has this to say: "Ooh! You're cute... but what's... up with you? You're a boy... aren't you...? In other words, you're male!". I'd say there is no reason to believe she's meant to be a cis girl in that version other than "because I want to". (Also, what line is that "majotachi" from? It's not much of an argument when presented any context like that.) [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:44, June 8, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::I would also encourage {{User|The Sackinator}} to review previous discussions and reference material on this talk page, particularly [http://www.fti.uab.es/tradumatica/revista/num5/articles/06/06central.htm this essay] by Francesa Di Marco, who was a member of the localization staff in Italy for the original ''Paper Mario: The Thousand Year-Door''. The {{wp|Occam's razor|simplest}} interpretation of the original Japanese text is that Vivian is a transgender woman, and it seems endlessly and unproductively speculative to continuously overthink that intent. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:03, June 8, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::: Thanks. I’ll give that essay a read. However, is the link currently not working? Clicking on it doesn’t work on my end.
:::::::::Whoops, sorry. Here is the [https://web.archive.org/web/20080619054108/http://www.fti.uab.es/tradumatica/revista/num5/articles/06/06central.htm article through the Wayback Machine]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:02, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::I see, thanks for sharing. It’s interesting to read all that goes into localization. Okay, so the author does understand Vivian to be transgender. While I believe this article’s accuracy on another point [[Talk:Chuckola Cola (Mario & Luigi series)|was disputed]] on this wiki, that was for ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'', not this game. I’d say your source is more valuable than fan speculation. —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 00:45, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Ah, good point—especially with Goom Goom. He isn’t saying that to be rude or anything. Okay, that point wins me over: The third interpretation (that Vivian is cis gender) is false. Thanks for the discussion! —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 00:45, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 434: / Line 434: @@
 :::The source linked is .ac.jp, which is used for universities in Japan. [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 12:18, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
 :::::So if I'm getting this right, Vivian's portrayal was never a trap-vs-trans thing after all, simply the narration misgendering a transgirl because it was considered socially acceptable to do so back then. Does that about sum it up? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:04, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::I wouldn't say "trap". Regardless, what you're saying is my personal interpretation of the script (and, fwiw, also what [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian%20(Paper%20Mario) Wikipedia] says) but the most objective point is that she has never been called an ''otokonoko'' (in the slang sense) or a crossdresser or anything of the sort [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 00:04, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::::This is also my interpretation of the original script. I was about to edit the page myself for something else but it seems like I'm not allowed? The citation for atai being "used by some effeminate male or gender-ambiguous characters in Japanese media" doesn't... actually support that. [https://legendsoflocalization.com/personal-pronouns-in-japanese/#atai If you check the link], it only mentions that atai is used by women, and making note that it tends to be used by trans characters specifically, though one of those examples is Vivian herself. It doesn't make note of men or gender nonconforming characters having a tendency to use it, like it does for boku and ore being used by women. --[[User:AgenderWitchery|AgenderWitchery]] ([[User talk:AgenderWitchery|talk]]) 01:32, June 25, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::::Wow, it seems like the article pretty much says the opposite of what its source says. I wonder how that even happened? Regardless, it looks like the article has improved quite a bit otherwise. Maybe everything about the meaning of otokonoko should be trimmed down since it's just documenting a misreading, but it doesn't really matter to me as long as it's clear what it actually means. [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 17:04, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::::::Although I just noticed that the opening of the article now states that she was trans in JP, but the Gender section still says it could go either way, which is just inconsistent. And now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure "male-identified" is a typo of "male-identifying". But she's never actually treated herself as male in dialog, so I would reword this entirely. [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 17:34, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::::::The otokonoko thing should probably stay because it's been spread around a lot (heck, a lot of Japanese fans have historically treated it as the "crossdresser" meaning regardless of the term's lack of age). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:58, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::::::::OK. I've reworked the section to what I think it should look like, but if anyone thinks it should be meaningfully different, please come talk about it here before or after you change it. [[User:DMS|DMS]] ([[User talk:DMS|talk]]) 01:44, June 27, 2024 (EDT)
-:(Sorry for the bump again...) I will add that it isn't unheard of to use [https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%82%AA%E3%83%88%E3%82%B3%E3%81%AE%E3%82%B3 オトコのコ in kana]; in general, the script uses kana instead of kanji for stylization purposes, so it would make sense to avoid using a kanji term regardless of what the intent was. (Otherwise they would call Koops 男の子, definitely.) The page originally took the Catch Card as a direct confirmation that Vivian is an otokonoko because the kana obfuscates which kanji is being used, but it's really more likely to just be "boy". When I rewrote this section, I tried to explain how it might be interpreted as such (and most of what I wrote is still intact), but I'm not really sure we need to? I guess I can see the point in debunking it as a common claim, though! [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 08:54, July 9, 2024 (EDT)
 == Admin note ==
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 ::::::::::I see, thanks for sharing. It’s interesting to read all that goes into localization. Okay, so the author does understand Vivian to be transgender. While I believe this article’s accuracy on another point [[Talk:Chuckola Cola (Mario & Luigi series)|was disputed]] on this wiki, that was for ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'', not this game. I’d say your source is more valuable than fan speculation. —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 00:45, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
 :::::::Ah, good point—especially with Goom Goom. He isn’t saying that to be rude or anything. Okay, that point wins me over: The third interpretation (that Vivian is cis gender) is false. Thanks for the discussion! —[[User:The Sackinator|The Sackinator]] ([[User talk:The Sackinator|talk]]) 00:45, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
-:If you don't mind me necroposting a bit since I noticed some rewrites since my last few edits, I'm actually really happy some of the points mentioned prior were debunked. For a while I was of the opinion that "Vivian was probably meant to be an otokonoko, mostly because I don't trust 'she looks like a girl but she's really a boy' to have been written in good faith about a trans woman," but the remake has really cleared a lot of the air about the intent behind her in the Japanese text. Which is good, because it means I don't really need to play devil's advocate in my edits anymore. I do think the simplest explanation is "Vivian was always intended as a trans woman, but being written by presumably cis writers with limited understanding of LGBT culture, the terminology ended up being really confused at first". And based on that, you ''can'' argue in bad faith that Vivian was meant to be a crossdresser (not an otokonoko because the term was coined after the game was released — which I genuinely didn't know about, so that dents a hole in that). As a trans woman I was genuinely kind of dreading the remake because I was worried they'd repeat the same mistakes, but it seems abundantly clear now that they do not want her to be interpreted that way, and I think we should barely give it the time of day, if at all. By now I would honestly move toward not representing that side at all. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 08:30, July 9, 2024 (EDT)
-::I agree that it is a bit weird for the article to shift into "rumor-debunking mode" like that. Maybe that stuff could be moved to [[List of rumors and urban legends]]? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:52, July 13, 2024 (EDT)