Editing Talk:Vine

==Vine==
I guess this is just the same as '''[[Vine]]'''? / [[User:Time Q|Time Q]] 10:39, 22 August 2007 (EDT)
:I Think so. {{User:Xzelion/Signature}}

==Um?==
Yeah. Um, where did the second image come from? {{User:CrystalYoshi/sig}} 14:30, 6 April 2008 (EDT)

==[[Piranha Plant]]?==
I'm wondering if the beanstalk in SMB3 - NSMBW is a type of piranha plant? (Not hurting [[Mario]]/[[Luigi]]/[[Blue Toad (character)|Yvan]] & [[Yellow Toad (character)|Wolley]]) 

{{User:Super Spike/sig}}

==Vine==
Should this article be moved to Vine, seeing as it's the most recent in-game name? {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 13:53, September 15, 2019 (EDT)
:Probably. Same may go for moving "Warp Pipe" to "Pipe", which is also more common and recent. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:11, September 16, 2019 (EDT)
::For what it's worth (if anything), I second both. [[User:AgentMuffin|AgentMuffin]] ([[User talk:AgentMuffin|talk]]) 01:35, September 17, 2019 (EDT)
:I still believe the article should be moved per the "If a subject's name has changed over time" step of [[Project:Naming]]. The object is called Vine in the ''Super Mario Maker'' games, suggesting that this is the current official name of the object from the 2D platformers. The only newer game that the article relates to this Vine is ''Luigi's Mansion 3'', and I haven't found an official name for this appearance.<br />Although I think this is a fairly clear-cut rename, and I've supported it here and raised the issue multiple times on the Discord server since September 2019, nothing has come of it. I recall no dissent, but no action, either, so I've become nervous to seek further consensus. If there was an expectation that someone steps up and moves the article themself, I don't have the permissions for this: the target page has revision history from 2007, before it became a redirect to this article.<br />I'm sorry if I come off as frustrated—I hold no ill will toward any party involved in this situation—but is there anything else I should do to try to get this discussed further or resolved at last? [[User:AgentMuffin|AgentMuffin]] ([[User talk:AgentMuffin|talk]]) 05:34, March 14, 2021 (EDT)
::If a discussion isn't gaining traction after a while you can always start a proposal about it, those typically get more attention than talk page discussions do. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:49, March 14, 2021 (EDT)
:::Should probably be moved to "Vine (climbable)" to allow for a page on swinging vines as well (which are currently in a weird place on the [[rope]] page I believe). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:45, March 14, 2021 (EDT)
::::Well the swinging ones are technically climbable as well, but the beanstalk vine should take priority over it anyway. Agreed on the "Beanstalk"->"Vine" move; I think no one bothered to do it yet because it's a big page with many links, but if more recent games have been using that name, it should be moved. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 00:16, March 15, 2021 (EDT)
:While the changes are being enacted, I'm also going to recommend changing the earliest appearance to ''Donkey Kong Jr.'', especially if the swinging vines are going to be restructured here. Both the [[:File:DKJ Instruction Banner.jpg|English]] and [[:File:DK Jr. Japanese Flyer Back.jpg|Japanese]] versions refer to them as vines as well (though sometimes the metallic objects in later levels are called chains), and they need coverage somewhere. They're even climbed a similar way in the original ''Super Mario Bros.'', as Mario/Luigi grabs the vine from the side like Donkey Kong Jr. did. They don't always come from blocks, after all. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:32, October 27, 2021 (EDT)
:Or, since the rope article seems to cover a very similar type of object under the "''Donkey Kong'' (Game Boy)" section, would it be better to cover the ''Donkey Kong Jr.'' vines and chains in that article instead? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:12, November 12, 2021 (EST)

Now that the article has been renamed, I think it is untenable for the vines in the ''Donkey Kong'' series to be excluded.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 05:48, November 29, 2024 (EST)

== Vine V3 ==

If they call them vines in [[Super Mario Maker|SMM]] and [[Super Mario Maker 2|SMM2]], shouldn't we rename this to vine? Besides, the vines in [[Super Mario Odyssey|SMO]] are CLEARLY not beanstalks, because they're grown from what appears to be some sort of nut or seed, not a [[Bean]]. The same thing going on with [[Talk:Warp Pipe|Pipe]]. In my (Clearly insignificant) opinion, the Super Mario Maker series has told us what [[Nintendo]] wants us to call stuff in the Super Mario series. [[Special:Contributions/106.69.172.127|106.69.172.127]] 03:57, May 25, 2023 (EDT)
:Late reply, but I definitely agree. Worth considering a proposal for this. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 13:40, January 2, 2024 (EST)

== Finally move Beanstalk to Vine ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|14-0|move}}
It's basically common knowledge at this point that these leafy, climbable stalks are almost always referred to as "vines" in modern ''Mario'' games; their names in ''[[Super Mario Maker]]'' and its [[Super Mario Maker 2|sequel]] have basically cemented that. As the discussions above show, people have been discussing the idea of moving this article for almost ''five years'' now, with no dissent that I'm aware of. ...Though, since this is moving an article for a relatively widespread feature of the Mario franchise, it is probably best we vote on it in a proposal.

'''Proposer''': {{User|DrippingYellow}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT

=== Support ===
#{{user|DrippingYellow}} Per progrowsal.
#{{user|Blinker}} Per proposal. Vinally.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per proposal. It's about time we raise this name into the clouds.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per proposal. I don't have a pun, though... :(
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all. This is way overdue.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Overdue. (Perhaps moving "warp pipe" to "pipe" can be considered next.)
#{{User|Tails777}} This sounds like a vine idea (yes, I know Blinker already used a similar pun). Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} This just leafs me confused how it took so long for a proposal about this to sprout.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} "Vine" is the most recent name, I think the ''Maker'' games used it too? Per proposal.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} "Vine" is indeed most recent. [[Perilous Vine Climb|I mean, if both main]] [[Vines in the Castle|''Super Mario Maker'' games use the name...]]
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} I'm surprised this hasn't been done yet.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Considering Berry...
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all. It's about time!
#{{User|Arend}} Vine by me- [[Vine with Me|wait...]]

=== Oppose ===

=== Comments===
Can it be "vine (beanstalk)" or "vine (climbable)" to properly exclude the swinging vines (which are currently mostly awkwardly left on the [[rope]] article)? Or perhaps we should treat upwards and hanging vines as the same object, since some items on the page are currently a hanging-but-not-swingy type? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:01, March 28, 2024 (EDT)
:[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=File:SMG_Asset_Texture_Swing_Rope.png&diff=3688869&oldid=3688379 From what I have observed], I thought folks have already been directing all mentions of swinging vine objects to "Beanstalk". - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:46, March 28, 2024 (EDT)

BTW, would we have to split the Sunflower from Yoshi's Island from this once the article's renamed? It's only been named a beanstalk in the 1995 Player's Guide, but has been called a flower or sunflower in more recent games, doesn't really ''look'' like a Vine, nor can be interacted as such (Yoshi has to hop from leaf to leaf as they were separate platforms, instead of climbing on the stalk as if it were a ladder). And what about that giant Beanstalk from ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' ([[Skyward Stalk|you know the one]]), or the Beanstalk from ''Yoshi's New Island'' (the one from [[Bouncy Beanstalk Walk]], that is)? {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:31, April 6, 2024 (EDT)


==Names==
{{talk}}
We should do something with the one from Yoshi's island as the Yoshi's Island DS Nintendo Strategy Guide calls it a Sunflower, which counts as a new name. Also, are these still called beanstalks in the Super Mario RPG remake? If they are, we may have to move this back because of the recent in-game name. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:58, June 21, 2024 (EDT)

== Split and trim the vine article ==

{{TPP}}

This is a two-step proposal that aims to (A.) split two subjects from the Vine article and (B.) trim some of the remaining coverage in the Vine article. I elaborate why below.

This article seems to largely cover a recurring object in the ''Super Mario'' franchise and unrelated subjects that just happen to also be vines in a vague botanical sense. Maybe this made sense when the title of this article was "Beanstalk," but it does not make a lot of sense anymore. There are games where there are multiple vine objects in them that go by different names in official paratext, and there are subjects here that are not even vines in a generic sense. I do not think it is the best way to cover this material.


;Step A. Split off "giant sunflower" and "hanging vine"
At a minimum, I see at least three major subjects in the article that would benefit from receiving dedicated coverage, namely:
#'''Static ladder-like vines that are often depicted with Piranha Plant-like heads'''. In some games they are already present in the environment, but they more typically pop out of blocks called "Vine Blocks." Major recurring object in the mainline ''Super Mario'' series. This should remain in the main Vine article.
#'''A giant sunflower that grows leaf-like platforms'''. It is a major recurring object in the ''Yoshi'' platformers. While mechanically a little similar because it usually appears after a [[Winged Cloud]] is struck and drops a seed, it is clearly not the same as the traditional ''Mario'' vine. Yoshi cannot climb this object, and it is not even a beanstalk or vine in a botanical sense, so its relationship to the other vines is more vaguely conceptual. This subject would be split off into a dedicated '''giant sunflower''' article.
#'''Vines suspended from a ceiling or tree that can be clung to'''. The player character can swing from them back and forth like a {{wp|rope swing}}. They are a major fixture in the ''Donkey Kong Country'' games, but they also have a presence in some mainline ''Super Mario'' games and are recognized under a slightly different name in the Japanese reference material for them. This object would be split off into a dedicated article titled '''hanging vine'''. It is often simply called a "vine" in English material, which makes sense in the ''Donkey Kong'' series where it is the only vine object in most games. However, this is less ideal for a wiki of our scope. The ''DKCR'' Prima Games guidebook refers to it as a "hanging vine" on page 98 and I think it would be a serviceable name for its article. If not, a name with an identifier like "'''vine (hanging)'''" would also be fine.


;Step B. Trim remaining coverage
Even after the split of the two objects I mention above, I would like the remaining article to more strictly cover the ladder-like vines. This is not a generic subject, especially since it usually is depicted as a relative of Piranha Plants.
Other than the giant sunflower and hanging vine, the article includes subjects seemingly more related to the beanstalks you see in fairytales and I am not personally equipped to remove or split that info, so I will leave those alone for now. However, it also includes vines/beanstalks that are basically just background elements or environmental details that just contextualize the leaf-like platforms that ''can'' be stood on and interacted with, or separate objects that are given the aesthetic of a vine. I feel like the inclusion of these subjects delves into kitchen sink territory. So here how I recommend we remove the following information from the vine article:
#The climbable vine in ''Super Mario 64 DS''. It is really a [[pole]] and functions identically to one. I don't think it is notable enough to warrant coverage here.
#The giant beanstalk from ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. It is a cool visual detail, but it emerges to contextualize the [[Leaf Platform|Leaf]] and [[Bean Platform]]s in the game and I think this subject is better discussed in those articles, especially since this article has been renamed "vine." The information from ''Super Smash Bros.'' covers this same beanstalk and should also be removed.
#''The Adventure of Super Mario Bros. 3''. There seem to only appear in the distant background and are never an episode fixture.
#The ''Super Mario World'' television series. Vines are an important fixture in [[Party Line|one episode]] and given it looks and functions nothing like the ladder-like vines, I think they are better served on the "Party Line" article.
#The beanstalk from [[Bouncy Beanstalk Walk]]. This is another stalk that exists to contextualize leaf-like platforms.
#''Mario Party 3'' - yet another example of a non-interactive beanstalk aimed to explain the presence of leaf-like platforms.

Here is the final result if this proposal was to pass as described. I recommend comparing it with how the article is currently written.
<div class="contentbox mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"data-expandtext="Show info"data-collapsetext="Hide info">
{{columns|
'''Vine'''
#Super Mario Bros.
#Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
#Super Mario Bros. 2
#Super Mario Bros. 3
#Super Mario World
#New Super Mario Bros.
#New Super Mario Bros. Wii
#New Super Mario Bros. 2
#New Super Mario Bros. U
#Super Mario Maker
#Super Mario Odyssey
#Super Mario Maker 2
#Super Mario Bros. Wonder
#Super Mario Bros.: Peach-hime Kyūshutsu Dai Sakusen!
#The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!
#Hotel Mario
#Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
#Paper Mario
#Mario Kart: Super Circuit
#Mario Kart Tour
#Mario Party 9
#Minecraft
#Luigi's Mansion 3 (Ladder Vine)
'''Giant sunflower'''
#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
#Yoshi's Island DS
#Yoshi's Woolly World
'''Hanging vine'''
#Donkey Kong Jr.
#Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest
#Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
#Donkey Kong Country Returns
#Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
#New Super Mario Bros.
#Super Mario Galaxy
#New Super Mario Bros. Wii
#New Super Mario Bros. 2
#New Super Mario Bros. U
#Luigi's Mansion 3
}}
</div>

I offer three options.

#'''Support: split off the giant sunflower and hanging vine, and trim remaining coverage'''
#'''Support: only split off the giant sunflower and hanging vine'''
#'''Oppose: the article is fine with its current scope'''

'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline''': Dec. 14th, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support: split and trim===
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.

===Support: split only===
#{{User|Pseudo}} This is a long time coming, I'd say - the ''Super Mario'' platformers' typically Piranha Plant-like beanstalk vines are very much distinct from the hanging vines of the ''Donkey Kong'' franchise and the like. That said, I do think that covering these additional, thematically related beanstalk vines on this article does make sense, since they are presented in a similar context to the ordinary ones, more or less.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} while i definitely agree with giving the Tarzan vines and big sunflowers their own page, i think most of the stuff you propose we trim is definitely a conceptual evolution on SMB1's vines, even if they function differently. this has also made me realize we don't mention [[Leaf Leap]] anywhere in this article
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.

===Oppose: fine as is===

===Comments on split and trim===
I would like to know if Super Mario RPG Remake calls this a Beanstalk or not. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:27, November 30, 2024 (EST)
@@ Line 63: / Line 63: @@
 ==Names==
+{{talk}}
 We should do something with the one from Yoshi's island as the Yoshi's Island DS Nintendo Strategy Guide calls it a Sunflower, which counts as a new name. Also, are these still called beanstalks in the Super Mario RPG remake? If they are, we may have to move this back because of the recent in-game name. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:58, June 21, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 153: / Line 154: @@
 #{{User|EvieMaybe}} while i definitely agree with giving the Tarzan vines and big sunflowers their own page, i think most of the stuff you propose we trim is definitely a conceptual evolution on SMB1's vines, even if they function differently. this has also made me realize we don't mention [[Leaf Leap]] anywhere in this article
 #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
-#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} The fact that the vines you climb and the vines you swing on are covered on the same article really irks me.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all. Let's propagate this article!
-#{{User|Arend}} Even back when this was still called "beanstalk", I don't really understand why the Yoshi's Island sunflowers are being covered here. Splitting at the very least seems to be crucial.
-#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
 ===Oppose: fine as is===
@@ Line 162: / Line 159: @@
 ===Comments on split and trim===
 I would like to know if Super Mario RPG Remake calls this a Beanstalk or not. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:27, November 30, 2024 (EST)
-:...Both? [https://youtu.be/DEJgwpuOZKs?t=1215 When the beanstalk at the end of Bean Valley grows out of the Brick Block], the in-game text still refers to it as a "magical beanstalk", [https://youtu.be/gn1KRjo2c1A?t=2014 like in the original], and the [https://youtu.be/DEJgwpuOZKs?t=1226 subsequent area] is even named "[[Beanstalk (Super Mario RPG)|Beanstalk]]", too. However, [https://youtu.be/DEJgwpuOZKs?t=1298 the note at the foot of the first vine] calls all of these vines in the Beanstalk area "vines" (...which is [https://youtu.be/gn1KRjo2c1A?t=2072 also like in the original]). {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:37, December 1, 2024 (EST)
-Out of curiosity, for the folks who voted for "split only," are there any individual subjects I listed above that you would feel comfortable with seeing removed? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:06, November 30, 2024 (EST)