Editing Talk:Vim

So, is Vim used to fuel Shroob UFOs, or does Swiggler convert it into fuel for them? I've seen both claims on the wiki, and I'm not sure which is correct, seeing as how I've never played PiT. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 22:57, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
:Swiggy drinks vim from a glass with a straw, then a spark-plug-ended strand of silk comes from his other side and connects to a UFO, recharging it. Shroobs also appear to be bathing in it (or some other green liquid) in the Shroob Mothership, and Princess Shroob drinks what might be some at a few points. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 22:18, 13 August 2017 (CT)
::The official guide has this to say: "A massive centipede-like creature named Swiggler resides deep within the Vim Factory, sucking out the Vim through the forest and using it to power the Shroobs' UFO forces. If you use your attacks wisely, you can take out Swiggler and shut down the factory for good." (Page 31, written by Chris Hoffman) {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 23:23, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

== Bio-engineered Trees? ==

Where does it say in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time that the trees of Toadwood Forest are bio-engineered? The article says they are but I can’t find a source. --[[User:Seandwalsh|Seandwalsh]] ([[User talk:Seandwalsh|talk]]) 10:28, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

== The word "Vim"... ==

Something I noticed while mashing buttons as I usually do--the term "Vim" is not a unique fantasy word to this game, and is in fact a dictionary word. It's an informal term defined as "energy; enthusiasm" under Google's dictionary service. The main use in modern-day speech is the saying "Vim and vigor". Basically, anytime Vim is brought up in-game, it can be assumed it's generally referring to energy.

The reason I bring this up on the discussion page is, this article is very much written under the pretense Vim is just some made-up concept representing the life force of Toads--but like, it very much isn't, it's just a straight up dictionary word describing the energy of *anything*. It's not explicitly stated everything has "vim" in-game, but between how vim is a word to describe energy as a whole, and early versions of the game even forgo the use of the term "Vim" for both the [[Vim Factory]] itself, but outright stating the Toad's ''energy'' has been stolen and not their "vim" ([https://youtu.be/4chFlDpmjvU?t=13 really.]), it does potentially raise a question if this warrants an article, especially given since Happiness from Yoshi's Story had its article deleted, a genuine precedent for these sorts of articles not existing has been set. 

I don't want to put it to vote unless enough people actually agree, but like, should we possibly either rewrite this article, or remove it under the same reason we removed Happiness? (P.S. "we removed Happiness" is a funny sentence out of context) '''''[[User:Camwood777|<font color="red">~Camwood777</font>]]''' [[User talk:Camwood777|<font color="red">(talk)</font>]]'' 18:30, August 20, 2021 (EDT)
:I think it's worthy of an article since it's actually being extracted and used as a physical resource. You can't do that with a person's energy in real life. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:50, August 20, 2021 (EDT)
::I definitely get that much, but also with the deleted Happiness article, there was also a "not in real life" element with the Yoshis of Yoshi's Story losing the happiness by losing the Super Happy Tree, and were left weakened and unable to do anything to Baby Bowser. As you can imagine, you can't really steal happiness and deprive someone's ability to fight you off in real life either ''(citation needed)'', but it didn't really stop the article from getting nixed. '''''[[User:Camwood777|<font color="red">~Camwood777</font>]]''' [[User talk:Camwood777|<font color="red">(talk)</font>]]'' 19:14, August 20, 2021 (EDT)

==Press :q! to finally exit out of Vim (aka: merge Vim's information to Vim Factory & other such places)==
{{TPP}}
As you can see above, this has been something that's kinda irked us since awhile now, and we figured, what the heck, we might as well finally make a proposal on this.

The entire crux of this article's existence seems to be under the assumption that Vim is some unique thing Toads have. After a quote of Toadiko saying the Shroobs stole their vim, the article literally opens with "Vim is the life force of Toads" and goes from there. The implication this article goes with is that Vim is something expressly important ''to'' Toads, that their own Vim is extremely important and is a super-unique concept compared to any other form of vim...

...and "vim" is just in the thesaurus as a synonym for "energy".

Yeahhh, the truth is that "vim" is just kind of an obscure synonym (probably most known from the expression "with vim and vigor") for energy, which is like. An ''exceedingly generic concept''. And yes, we know somebody here is about to mention that it holds plot relevance for the first area and makes sporadic appearances after there, but we'd like to give a very hefty counter-argument in the form of an article that has since become Deleted Nonsense; [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Other#Happiness|Happiness]].

The entire crux of Happiness' existence seemed to be under the assumption that Happiness was some unique thing Yoshis have. After an extremely flowery introduction of Happiness as a ''general concept'', The article literally opened with "Happiness as a concept plays an important role in the Yoshi series, specifically Yoshi's Story." and goes from there. The implication that article went with is that Happiness is something expressly important ''to'' Yoshis, that their own happiness was extremely important and is a super-unique concept compared to any other form of happiness... You can probably get where we're going with this, right?

Happiness was given the axe because, it's just the concept of happiness, and that nebulous concept happened to be plot-relevant to a Mario game (''Yoshi's Story''). Likewise, because the nebulous concept of the energy of living beings was plot-relevant to a Mario game (''Partners in Time''), it has an article. The word "Happiness" could've been swapped out with just about anything, like "Elatedness", "Joy", or "Residual Book Spirits", and it probably would've made just as much sense. The word "Vim" here could've been easily swapped out with just about anything--"Energy", "Blood", or "Toad Farts"--and it still probably wouldn't make any less sense. And, y'know, funny we mention that, because they [https://youtu.be/QtsB5ozPf60?t=960 already kind of ''did'' swap out the words before for the Kiosk demo].

And we know that Vim does play a very fantastical role in the game's story as a sort of bio-fuel or drink for the Shroobs, we're not saying this is something fully meaningless to completely nuke from the wiki; but, Happiness is ''also'' something that plays a pretty fantastical role in ''Yoshi's Story''--what form of ordinary happiness makes it so, when you don't have any, you go completely lethargic? Just because there are supernatural elements to Toad's Vim doesn't exactly make it any more deserving of an article than the already-supernatural Happiness was.

To recap our thoughts as unambigously as possible:
* "Vim" isn't actually all that identifying. It is literally just a synonym for Energy--to the point where the Kiosk Demo also called Vim "Energy".
* We have set a precedent for nixing articles like this before by deleting Happiness as it appears in ''Yoshi's Story''.
* While we recognize Vim has fantastical elements, we also got rid of Happiness despite that game also giving Happiness fantastical elements.

The way we see it, unless we decide to go completely bonkers and re-create Happiness as an article (which we feel pretty confident in saying everyone would agree that that'd be a terrible and stupid idea), there's 3 main ways we could treat this article specifically:
* '''Merge relevant info to boss fights, and then merge the rest of the info to [[Vim Factory]], leaving a redirect to it''': It's not entirely irrelevant to the latter location, but for the most part, once the Vim Factory is gone, so too is the plot relevance of Vim as a whole--except for when a Shroob boss uses it to heal, which we can just mention on their articles.
* '''Merge relevant info to boss fights, and then merge the rest of the info to the ''Partners in Time'' article's story synopsis, leaving no redirect:''' This is kind of a soft-delete, but we at least expand upon Vim's role in the game's general plot in a few sentences. We're a little more opposed to this one, because we feel like that's a lot of info to try to cram into a general plot synopsis when it's only truly relevant for just one small section of the game, but like, we feel like you could do worse.
* '''Do nothing:''' We will just leave the article be, plain and simple. The energy of toads will remain as a unique concept, and we will treat it like such. You can probably guess after all this, but we're pretty opposed to this one.

<small>in conclusion: darn it we wrote this proposal thinking it'd be short and easy but now look at what we've done in trying to cover all our bases. we know why we do this and all that but like, ''why'' do we keep doing this,</small>

'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 15, 2023, 23:59 GMT

===Merge relevant appearances in boss fights to their fights, merge all else to Vim Factory and redirect there===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We think we made it apparent this is our preferred option. It does make mild appearances after the Vim Factory, usually as part of a healing move, but basically everything else here is only relevant to one part of the game, and the idea that Toad Energy is somehow different from any other form of bodily energy is bordering on BJAODN levels of silly.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.

===Merge relevant appearances in boss fights to their fights, merge all else to the ''Partners in Time'' story synopsis===

===Do nothing===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I'd rather keep this around since it's a unique plot-relevant resource. The way it's portrayed in-game is far from a generic appearance of the real concept. I also don't see how the term not being used in the demo is relevant if it doesn't apply to the final version. Depending on how happiness is portrayed in Yoshi's Story, I wouldn't be opposed to it having an article again either.
#{{User|Mario}} Vim is a tangible component in the games. You see it in the form of liquid inside fuel tanks, Swiggler's and Elder Princess Shroob's drinking it, the reason for the ships being powered, Toad physically deprived of it from the trees. Also "the idea that Toad Energy is somehow different from any other form of bodily energy is bordering on BJAODN levels of silly": that's how Partners in Time set that up. Toad Energy IS established as different than other bodily energy by powering spaceships. It's an absurdity of the game's narrative, but I don't think in this case it contradicts with the association of vim as a specific entity in Partners in Time. There are naming shenanigans with vim, but unlike happiness I don't think vim, despite having a dictionary term, is as generic (it's not a common word) and vim gets a whole factory name dedicated to it. "Happiness", the primary example being used here, is a flawed example. Unlike vim, it is mostly abstract and treated as far more generic. Unlike vim, "happiness" is an aftereffect of the absence Super Happy Tree and doesn't exist independent of this tree. Happiness is not a vastly integral gameplay mechanic either ([[Yoshi's Mood]] just redirects to [[Point]]), or the article for [[Yoshi's Story]] is very insufficient for me to get a clear picture of this, so you can't justify happiness as a page at that angle either. At least vim is found in drinks that can heal some bosses.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}}

===Comments===
Is "happiness" even a mentioned term in Yoshi's Story? Its application is especially generic, like you could make an article on "cheer" just because the in-game cinematic calls Yoshi to spread it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:18, December 1, 2023 (EST)
@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 Where does it say in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time that the trees of Toadwood Forest are bio-engineered? The article says they are but I can’t find a source. --[[User:Seandwalsh|Seandwalsh]] ([[User talk:Seandwalsh|talk]]) 10:28, March 19, 2019 (EDT)
-:Old comment, but this is entirely implication since trees don't "normally" suck out a Toad's life force to be used to power the Shroobs' brake lights. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:55, December 14, 2024 (EST)
 == The word "Vim"... ==
@@ Line 19: / Line 18: @@
 ==Press :q! to finally exit out of Vim (aka: merge Vim's information to Vim Factory & other such places)==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|1-0-10|do not merge}}
 As you can see above, this has been something that's kinda irked us since awhile now, and we figured, what the heck, we might as well finally make a proposal on this.
@@ Line 52: / Line 50: @@
 ===Merge relevant appearances in boss fights to their fights, merge all else to Vim Factory and redirect there===
 #{{User|Camwoodstock}} We think we made it apparent this is our preferred option. It does make mild appearances after the Vim Factory, usually as part of a healing move, but basically everything else here is only relevant to one part of the game, and the idea that Toad Energy is somehow different from any other form of bodily energy is bordering on BJAODN levels of silly.
-<s>#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.</s>
+#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
 ===Merge relevant appearances in boss fights to their fights, merge all else to the ''Partners in Time'' story synopsis===
@@ Line 58: / Line 56: @@
 ===Do nothing===
 #{{User|Waluigi Time}} I'd rather keep this around since it's a unique plot-relevant resource. The way it's portrayed in-game is far from a generic appearance of the real concept. I also don't see how the term not being used in the demo is relevant if it doesn't apply to the final version. Depending on how happiness is portrayed in Yoshi's Story, I wouldn't be opposed to it having an article again either.
-#{{User|Mario}} Vim is a tangible component in the games. You see it in the form of liquid inside fuel tanks, Swiggler's and Elder Princess Shroob's drinking it, the reason for the ships being powered, Toad physically deprived of it from the trees. Also "the idea that Toad Energy is somehow different from any other form of bodily energy is bordering on BJAODN levels of silly": that's how Partners in Time set that up. Toad Energy IS established as different than other bodily energy by powering spaceships. It's an absurdity of the game's narrative, but I don't think in this case it contradicts with the association of vim as a specific entity in Partners in Time. There are naming shenanigans with vim, but unlike happiness I don't think vim, despite having a dictionary term, is as generic (it's not a common word) and vim gets a whole factory name dedicated to it. "Happiness", the primary example being used here, is a flawed example. Unlike vim, it is mostly abstract and treated as far more generic. Unlike vim, "happiness" is an aftereffect of the absence Super Happy Tree and doesn't exist independent of this tree. Happiness is not a vastly integral gameplay mechanic either, unlike in, say [[Super Princess Peach]] ([[Yoshi's Mood]] just redirects to [[Point]]), or the article for [[Yoshi's Story]] is very insufficient for me to get a clear picture of this, so you can't justify happiness as a page at that angle either. At least vim is found in drinks that can heal some bosses.
+#{{User|Mario}} Vim is a tangible component in the games. You see it in the form of liquid inside fuel tanks, Swiggler's and Elder Princess Shroob's drinking it, the reason for the ships being powered, Toad physically deprived of it from the trees. Also "the idea that Toad Energy is somehow different from any other form of bodily energy is bordering on BJAODN levels of silly": that's how Partners in Time set that up. Toad Energy IS established as different than other bodily energy by powering spaceships. It's an absurdity of the game's narrative, but I don't think in this case it contradicts with the association of vim as a specific entity in Partners in Time. There are naming shenanigans with vim, but unlike happiness I don't think vim, despite having a dictionary term, is as generic (it's not a common word) and vim gets a whole factory name dedicated to it. "Happiness", the primary example being used here, is a flawed example. Unlike vim, it is mostly abstract and treated as far more generic. Unlike vim, "happiness" is an aftereffect of the absence Super Happy Tree and doesn't exist independent of this tree. Happiness is not a vastly integral gameplay mechanic either ([[Yoshi's Mood]] just redirects to [[Point]]), or the article for [[Yoshi's Story]] is very insufficient for me to get a clear picture of this, so you can't justify happiness as a page at that angle either. At least vim is found in drinks that can heal some bosses.
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
+#{{User|FanOfYoshi}}
-#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per opposition.
-#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, generic energy doesn't tend to manifest as green liquid.
-#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
-#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all.
-#{{User|Blinker}} Now that I look at this properly, it seems like the "vim" is mostly referred to as "mushroom power" in dialogue. Maybe they sometimes use "vim" instead to save on space, but the Japanese version appears to consistently call it「キノピオパワー」(literally "Toad Power"), so it really is "some unique thing Toads have".
-#{{User|Pseudo}} This is definitely a tangible, non-generic substance in the game, as others have said. I’d potentially be in support of moving to {{fake link|Mushroom power}}, though.
-#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} "Energy" is merely an intangible concept; not only does vim physically exist, making it more than just energy, it also has significance to both plot ''and'' gameplay independent of the Vim Factory itself, because it powers spaceships and heals bosses. Happiness shouldn't get its own article because it's not a tangible part of the plot to ''Yoshi's Story'', and [[♥]] already covers its significance to gameplay, but that's not the case here.
 ===Comments===
-Is "happiness" even a mentioned nongeneric term in Yoshi's Story? Like, based in the logic of the creation for "happiness", you could make an article on "cheer" just because the in-game cinematic calls Yoshi to spread it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:18, December 1, 2023 (EST)
+Is "happiness" even a mentioned term in Yoshi's Story? Its application is especially generic, like you could make an article on "cheer" just because the in-game cinematic calls Yoshi to spread it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:18, December 1, 2023 (EST)
-:Happiness is a health bar in that game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:47, December 2, 2023 (EST)
-Yyyyyeah, the main problem with this is that as everyone else has pointed out that Vim is a big thing in Partners in Time and if you merge it, then it becomes even more confusing. Plus, Kiosks demoes feature different stuff from the games a lot for the sake of simplifying things or they just didn't have everything together yet, etc. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:59, December 2, 2023 (EST)
-Considering the "vim" is also called "mushroom power" twice in Toadiko's explanation, and the corresponding dialogue in Japanese consistently calls it "Kinopio power", maybe a move to {{fake link|Mushroom power}} would make sense? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:35, December 2, 2023 (EST)
-:I wouldn't mind a redirect but "vim" is a term used a couple of times, most notably Vim Factory which is an entire level most users will spent some time on vs a couple of seconds of dialogue, so I think in terms of searchability, vim is the best candidate here. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:59, December 2, 2023 (EST)