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| ==Upload==
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| Can someone please upload a pic of urchin from mario galaxy?{{User:Fg/sig}} | | Can someone please upload a pic of urchin from mario galaxy?{{User:Fg/sig}} |
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| ==Split Mega Urchin and Mini Urchin from Urchin== | | ==Split Mega Urchin and Mini Urchin from Urchin== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|5-0|split all}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|split all|5-0}} |
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| I don't understand why these two things are merged because while it is true that they are in fact just bigger and small versions of Urchins they both have what I believe are official names (QUICK SOMEONE WITH A PRIMA GUIDE FOR NEW SUPER MARIO BROS. WII AND NSMB2 CONFIRM THIS) and they both show differences from regular Urchins because unlike Urchins which swim and roll both of these (I believe) don't move at all. I would also like to add that we have pages for smaller types of enemies like [[Micro Goomba]] and bigger types of enemies like [[Colossal Paratroopa]] so I fail to see why these pages should be treated differently. | | I don't understand why these two things are merged because while it is true that they are in fact just bigger and small versions of Urchins they both have what I believe are official names (QUICK SOMEONE WITH A PRIMA GUIDE FOR NEW SUPER MARIO BROS. WII AND NSMB2 CONFIRM THIS) and they both show differences from regular Urchins because unlike Urchins which swim and roll both of these (I believe) don't move at all. I would also like to add that we have pages for smaller types of enemies like [[Micro Goomba]] and bigger types of enemies like [[Colossal Paratroopa]] so I fail to see why these pages should be treated differently. |
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| == Unira == | | == Unira == |
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| According to the article, the Japanese name for these guys is Unira. I realize that, other than being sea urchins, they don't really look the same, but [[Unira]] is also the name of the sea urchins from ''Clu Clu Land''. Is mentioning this noteworthy for the article? -- [[User:1337star|1337star]] ([[User talk:1337star|Mailbox SP]]) [[File:MPA Boo Artwork.jpg|20px|Happy Halloween!]] 17:30, 30 October 2012 (EDT) | | According to the article, the Japanese name for these guys is Unira. I realize that, other than being sea urchins, they don't really look the same, but [[Unira]] is also the name of the sea urchins from ''Clu Clu Land''. Is mentioning this noteworthy for the article? -- [[User:1337star|1337star]] ([[User talk:1337star|Mailbox SP]]) [[File:MPA Boo.jpg|20px|Happy Halloween!]] 17:30, 30 October 2012 (EDT) |
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| == Two kinds in SMW == | | == Two kinds in SMW == |
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| ==Split the ground Urchin== | | ==Split the ground Urchin== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|1-0-1-8-0|Split as Urchin (land)}}
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| As discussed, there is a second type of Urchin in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'', which isn't named in the Prima Guides. One option is its internal name in both games, which is a direct translation of its first Japanese name. The other closest mention is on the trading card, which calls it a red Urchin. A third option is available for Riku Unira, which is a romanization of its more recent Japanese name. A fourth option has been included for "Urchin (land)", which is a compromise to feature an identifier based on the plain English internal name. This proposal will determine which of the four names it will get for the split. | | As discussed, there is a second type of Urchin in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'', which isn't named in the Prima Guides. One option is its internal name in both games, which is a direct translation of its first Japanese name. The other closest mention is on the trading card, which calls it a red Urchin. A third option is available for Riku Unira, which is a romanization of its more recent Japanese name. A fourth option has been included for "Urchin (land)", which is a compromise to feature an identifier based on the plain English internal name. This proposal will determine which of the four names it will get for the split. |
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} My preferred choice. You didn't really get my point. I didn't use the "it is an english name but is made by Japanese people" argument. I said that "Unizo" isn't the english name. Also, for the SMBS items, it worths nothing. | | #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} My preferred choice. You didn't really get my point. I didn't use the "it is an english name but is made by Japanese people" argument. I said that "Unizo" isn't the english name. Also, for the SMBS items, it worths nothing. |
| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Since we do have an English name for it, I think this is the logical choice. | | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Since we do have an English name for it, I think this is the logical choice. |
| #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} That works for me, since English names usually take priority anyways.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per all.
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| #{{User|bwburke94}} Per all.
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| ===Keep merged=== | | ===Keep merged=== |
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| ::We renamed "Chibi Wanwan" into "Mini Wanwan". I pretty much agree with "Urchin (land)", and we renamed Petari to Petapeta. The crew that made the name DOES matter. <small><small>Btw you can find my loanword concept loose, idc, and shouldn't we move Pattan to '''its direct romanization''' "Patan" given the Petari/Petapeta and the potential Garigari/Gorumondo case, since it's not its english name by any definition either</small></small>. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:17, 8 March 2019 (EST) | | ::We renamed "Chibi Wanwan" into "Mini Wanwan". I pretty much agree with "Urchin (land)", and we renamed Petari to Petapeta. The crew that made the name DOES matter. <small><small>Btw you can find my loanword concept loose, idc, and shouldn't we move Pattan to '''its direct romanization''' "Patan" given the Petari/Petapeta and the potential Garigari/Gorumondo case, since it's not its english name by any definition either</small></small>. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:17, 8 March 2019 (EST) |
| :::Yes, because Mini Wanwan is technically more common. The Petari and Garigari situations are minor in the long run, and are off-topic since they have been/are being dealt with. And you should care that you're applying the wrong definitions of loanword and romanization because it seriously risks spreading misinformation. As for it mattering if the name came from Japanese people or not, good luck convincing anyone that [[Wing (Super Mario Bros. Special)|Wing]] and [[Lucky Star (Super Mario Bros. Special)|Lucky Star]] are [http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/pc88/a/smbspec-14.png actually] in another language. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:40, 8 March 2019 (EST) | | :::Yes, because Mini Wanwan is technically more common. The Petari and Garigari situations are minor in the long run, and are off-topic since they have been/are being dealt with. And you should care that you're applying the wrong definitions of loanword and romanization because it seriously risks spreading misinformation. As for it mattering if the name came from Japanese people or not, good luck convincing anyone that [[Wing (Super Mario Bros. Special)|Wing]] and [[Lucky Star (Super Mario Bros. Special)|Lucky Star]] are [http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/pc88/a/smbspec-14.png actually] in another language. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:40, 8 March 2019 (EST) |
| ::::It means something because you can't have it both ways; either Japanese are capable of forming English words or they aren't (which has more or less been your suggestion). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:59, 8 March 2019 (EST)
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| :::::Please take a look at [[Super Mario Land]] and [[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]. Also, please note that i told you that there is "Unizo". <small><small>I don't really get your definition of an "english" name, and also, forgot to say, the <tt>TicoComet</tt> internal filename, along with "Pattan" and other SMG enemies internal filenames are romanized, and for some reason, they don't have the another language template. IMO, both examples should have been named to the direct romanization (except for the Comet word).</small></small> --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:41, 9 March 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::Not sure what those games have to do with anything because the former had a minimal localization altogether and the latter had localization effort only put into its manual. Localization is not the same thing as translation. An English name as used by the wiki is something that is generally considered actual English or used by the official English translators, and if they choose not to localize what they translate like they did with ''Super Mario Land'', that's on them, not us. Yes, we are aware that internal sourcing is somewhat of a grey area, but recent attempts to have a broader discussion about it and put something into policy failed, so the best we can do is determine each case individually. In this situation, we could go with Urchin and have an article identifier, but we also have a conflicting proposal on source priority exceptions, which is why Land Unizo would be the result. And I'll remind you that other examples like Needle Plant are, in no way, shape or form, a "romanization" of the Japanese name - a romanization is not the same thing as Japanese translating the language themselves. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:08, 9 March 2019 (EST)
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| ::I said that Needle Plant is merely placeholdery, and is not intended to be the actual name. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat did have internal filenames "englishized", but most of them are too '''generic'''. Kiba Pig Poppo wasn't entirely englishized though, and i feel that it is nonsensical by itself. [[Mini Iga]] and [[Bakky]] are total romanizations just like [[Karikari]] and [[Kamikami]]. Wait, the source priority proposal? I'd have liked to make a counterproposal, since i'd prefer a guide-by-guide basis. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:00, 9 March 2019 (EST)
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| :::Except Needle Plant isn't a placeholder since it's still in use (and that's not what you indicated [[Special:Diff/2612233|earlier]]), and I already went over how Mini Iga and Bakky aren't real {{wp|Romanization of Japanese#Modern systems|romanizations}}. Anyway, this is going nowhere here. If you still have issues about particular cases, I'd suggest taking them to the appropriate talk page. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:21, 9 March 2019 (EST)
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| ::::I mostly disagree with splitting it as Land Unizo because of the "Unizo" part of the internal filename. Please note what {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} said on the [[Talk:Gōrumondo|Gorumondo talk page]] with the invented "Iron Noko" example. It wouldn't be much of an english name with that "Unizo". --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:41, March 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::Also, while the crew that made internal filenames did not matter for Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, it DID matter for most unnamed Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 enemies. This includes: The "Beamer" enemies, Ball Beamer/Bolt Beam, Jump Beamer and Ring Beamer/Beam. Jump/Sentry Garage/Guarder, Fire Pressure, Mandibug Stack, this Urchin and Pattan. Particularly the last one, as its not the enemy's english name in anyway, shape or form. It is a romanization of the Japanese name. (that could have been changed to the direct romanization if that becomes the consensus, but i don't think so). Yes, i know that it is Hepburn romanization, but that does not make them the enemies's english names. Anyways, a question. When you said that neither guides call it an Urchin, do you mean that it doesn't get a proper mention, or it isn't mentioned at all? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:56, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::"TicoComet" is also one of these case. It isn't settled yet, since it's not the character's english name either. I'd rather have chosen "Comet Chikko". I already brought up the "Iron Noko" example. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:01, March 17, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::If say, a water (or even a fire) variant of the Monty Mole is internally named "WaterChoropu" or "FireChoropu" depending on which variant it is, there are loanwords. But, it has the Japanese name of the Monty Mole, so no, it would not be much of an english name, and Land Unizo/Unizo Land is NOT that Urchin's english name. Do you see where i want to go here? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:17, March 18, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::::You might as well want to say that "Sanbo Flower" is that Needlenose-spitting Egg-Plant's english name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:01, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::::" which is a compromise to feature an identifier based on the '''plain English''' internal name". That's what i meant on your proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:01, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::When i asked you if there was any mention in-game, it was specifically because you brought up the "Urchin (land)" thing above, when i thought about the source priority proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:56, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
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| == Rethink relation to Unira? ==
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| {{talk}}
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| Given the outcome of the recent Togezo proposal, I think we should rethink considering Urchins related to the ''Clu Clu Land'' Uniras (a ''variant'' of them, no less! And it was like this before the proposal that removed "subject origin"). The "names in other languages" section claims that "ra" is a common suffix for monster names. If that's true, then it sharing a name with an enemy from a 1985 NES game could be a coincidence, which I think it most likely is. Why would ''Super Mario World'' reference ''Clu Clu Land'' of all games? If the Spiny-Togezo connection was a bit of a stretch, then this is Olympic gymnastics. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 14:37, August 15, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Their movement around rocks in SMW is very similar to the Uniras' behavior in CCL, and perhaps more importantly, the first ''The Legend of Zelda'' JP manual deliberately referred to one of its bosses (Digdogger) as a giant Unira while referring to another (Manhandla) as a giant Packun Flower (ie Piranha Plant), so if ''it'' could reference CCL, SMW ''definitely'' could - and given they're by the same dev team, it seems immensely unlikely they forgot it within that few-year period. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:01, August 15, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::The movement between Urchins and Unira is hardly what I'd call "similar". Uniras actively chase the player while being constrained to a Pac-Man-style grid, while Urchins in their debut appearance either drifted back and forth between two spots or circled an area. Urchins are also invincible, whereas Uniras are not. The two enemies serve entirely different functions, and have noticeably different appearances, so if this was really intended to be an actual reference, they failed in that the enemies don't appear similar in anything but name. The Zelda enemies are arguably even less similar to their supposed inspirations, but at least we are given explicit confirmation in the manual; there is nothing for Urchin and Unira that I'm aware of.<br>Also, not even the same dev team. From what I can gather, ''Clu Clu Land'' is from R&D1, while the ''Mario'' and ''Zelda'' games are R&D4. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 17:43, August 15, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::Just want to point out that even if it is the same dev team, it can be different people. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:22, August 15, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::When I said "same dev team," I was referring to ''Zelda'' and ''World'' making the reference, not ''CluClu Land'' itself.... Also, Urchins are not invincible, they can be defeated via Grab Block as the ''Perfect'' blah blah ''Encyclopedia'' points out. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:55, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
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| First, I should point out, that an enemy referencing another franchise's enemy is <u>not</u> the same thing as that enemy being ''directly related to'' (or ''being'') said other franchise's enemy, especially if it involves yet another enemy as an intermediate stage.<br>Anyway, I really doubt that Urchin is supposed to be an Unira or Digdogger. For one, it's never explicity stated that it is. We know Digdogger and Manhandla are an Unira and Piranha Plant respectively because it's explicitly stated as such in the Japanese manual for ''The Legend of Zelda''; plus, the fact that Digdogger reacts negatively to sound just like an Unira corroborates to that. Urchins do not have that weakness. And appearance-wise, the only thing Urchin has in common with Unira and Digdogger is that it's spiky. In-game, [[:File:Urchin SMW.png|Urchins]] don't look like [https://www.spriters-resource.com/fullview/19370/ Unira, Boss Unira] or [[zeldawiki:File:TLoZ Digdogger Sprite.png|Digdogger]] otherwise, having a different color scheme and different-looking eyes, and this remains inconsistent [[:File:SMW Art - Urchin.png|in]] [[:File:SSBU Unira Spirit.png|artwork]] [[zeldawiki:File:TLoZ Digdogger Artwork.png|form]] (at least Digdogger still looks like a (stunned) Boss Unira). {{User:Arend/sig}} 02:53, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
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