Editing Talk:Undergrunt Gunner

==(First topic)==
this mole is not a miniboss,he is a boss.just because you fight him 3 times,doesn't mean he is a miniboss(but in the Deep Dark Galaxy,he is like a miniboss but in the Gold Leaf Galaxy and the Toy Time Galaxy,he is a boss) and also,Undergrunt Gunner is what the toads call him,the bees call him Mean Mole,and the guide calls him Cannon and Bubble Cannon. [[User:Luigi-Tron 3000]]

Wasn' he also in main mission of Bouy Base? or am I getting it confused with some other place. I know it was a metal thing, and not a cake, beach, or wood platform, and it is a miniboss, it is '''A''' Undergrunt gunner in each place not, '''The'''
Undergrunt Gunner.[[User:Doomlord250]]

We need some pictures of the Undergrunt Gunners from the sequel. I try uploading pictures but it doesn't work for some strange reason.--[[File:YoshiMP8Artwork.png|35px]][[User:YoshiGo99|YoshiGo99]][[File:YoshiNSMBW.png|35px]] 22:11, 24 February 2011 (EST)
:What do you mean it doesn't work?

{{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

I might be doing something wrong anyways. I don't have any pictures of these guys but someone can get a picture of them. I can only upload pictures from my documents not the Internet.--[[File:YoshiMP8Artwork.png|35px]][[User:YoshiGo99|YoshiGo99]][[File:YoshiNSMBW.png|35px]] 22:36, 24 February 2011 (EST)

::Get a picture of it, copy it (right click Copy), paste it into Paint, save it as PNG, upload it. Tada.

{{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

== Split everything out of this page? ==
Should we split everything out of this page? They all have separate Japanese names, and are different. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:16, April 20, 2019 (EDT)
:I'm not sure; they are the same enemy, but with different artillery. We do have seperate articles for [[Fishin' Lakitu]]s and [[Aqua Lakitu]]s. [[User:Obsessive Mario Fan|Obsessive Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Obsessive Mario Fan|talk]]) 13:22, April 20, 2019 (EDT)
::Which means that the "Gunner" itself is the same type of entity. I think splitting "Electric Bazooka" from "Undergrunt Gunner (boss)" would be a bit over-the-top. Mayhaps {{tem|main}} the two SMG boss turrets, but not treat the moles themselves as separate entities. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:48, April 20, 2019 (EDT)
:::I think that would work best. [[User:Obsessive Mario Fan|Obsessive Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Obsessive Mario Fan|talk]]) 13:49, April 20, 2019 (EDT)
::::Personally I would keep Gunner as one page and explain the times it appears in depth and split off into Electric Bazooka as another page, but mention how the operator is similar. That's just my opinion though... [[User:Trig Jegman|Trig]] - 13:57, April 20, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I don't see any reason for the electric version to take any less priority. The only reason the Water version would have the "Undergrunt Gunner" name over "Water Bazooka" is that a Toad says it in the Deep Dark Galaxy. In reference to the operator. Which is the exact same thing across the board. While the SGM2 enemy has a different role and helmet, it keeps the extremely conspicuous cyan coloration. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:03, April 20, 2019 (EDT)
::::::It looks like that there is a major agreement on that. I'll split them later. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:33, April 21, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::Excuse me? Only four people have spoken, and I have been mostly against it. The only way I could see a split working if there were Water Bazooka and Electric Bazooka articles about the ''cannons themselves'', simply mentioning that they were ''operated'' by Undergrunt Gunners. Because the moles themselves are the exact same entity across the board, and shouldn't be split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:27, April 21, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::I definitely don't think the Undergrunt Gunners should be split, and I personally think articles for the cannons are unnecessary. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:39, April 21, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::I additionally want to make clear that I don't think they should be split either, but if they ''are'' split, that's the only way that will work. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:41, April 21, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::Maybe Undergrunt Gunner (Koopa Clown Car) for those in Super Mario Galaxy 2 if we want to talk about the weapon rather than the enemy? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:21, April 29, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::I don't see why that can't be on the same page as the SMG boss. That seems like splitting every single boss depiction of Wiggler and Big Boo from the enemy depictions. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:26, April 29, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::Yeah, that'd be splitting hairs over cyan Undergrunts. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:29, April 29, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::So, if i get this right, we are for splitting if it's for treating them as the cannon of the Undergrunts, but not split the Super Mario Galaxy 2 iteration? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:46, May 14, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Now that I think about it, I think it would be best to not split the article at all. [[User:Obsessive Mario Fan|Obsessive Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Obsessive Mario Fan|talk]]) 15:54, May 14, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I'd prefer to leave as-is. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:52, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

Oh come on! I've been opening this talk page because LinkTheLefty brought me this idea. We're only 2 to agree (me and Trig Jegman), and 3 oppositions. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:42, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
:Just start a proposal, it's the only thing that's going to move things forward. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 00:31, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
::I'd prefer let discussion play instead of rushing proposals. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:45, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::There wouldn't be any rush if you started one now. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:55, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::I'm pretty sure that it would fail. To explain how i'd intend this: Undergrunt Gunner is a collective term to both Water Bazooka and Electric Bazooka (unless it refers to the Water Bazooka rather than being a collective term), they both get an article. The "Koopa Clown Car" ones are clearly a different artillery, so they should get split into their own article. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:00, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::The Clown Car ones are the most deserving of a split, though a major problem with that is that we don't really have a convenient name to split them to. Furthermore, they still retain the distinct cyan coloration of the other Undergrunt Gunners, meaning that people who recognize them from the first game will probably look up this article anyway, so there's no harm in keeping them here. The other two should definitely stay put; it's not like we split the different kinds of [[Elemental Ghost]]s. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 13:22, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::According to the sources, they're also called Undergrunt Gunners. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:01, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::Exactly what I'm saying. They don't have a distinct name, and "Undergrunt Gunner (Koopa Clown Car)" is just awkward. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 14:45, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::What about Undergrunt Gunner (Super Mario Galaxy 2)? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:22, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Don't see a point. It's still the same creature. Just keep them merged. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 15:32, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::You are missing my point. It's on the artillery. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:55, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::And the artillery isn't the Undergrunt Gunner. It's a Clown Car-''like'' flying Bill Blaster solely used by the Undergrunt Gunner, which is the name of the mole. And since it's only ever used by the mole, it doesn't need split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:24, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::So you mean the Koopa Clown Car ones are generic cannons, and that the "Undergrunt Gunner" is a subspecies of the Undergrunt? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:41, June 17, 2019 (EDT)

Here's my opinion.
*Sir Water Cannon: Recurring miniboss, therefore deserves a split from the "enemy" Gunners.
*The Water Cannon itself: If Sir Water Cannon is split, this would go with it.
*Corporal Electrocandy: Split'im, he's the most miniboss-like of them all.
*Boomsday Machine Mk. 1 (Electro Cannon): Same goes for this.
*The ones in clown cars: They're enemies and therefore do not belong with minibosses.
{{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 15:25, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
I'm indifferent on splitting the pages, but I really think there should be different sections on the different kinds of undergrunt gunners. -Yeetus

A little bumping on this. Regardless of what is done with the SMG bosses, the SMG2 enemy should ''not'' be split into its own page. Not only is it really not a separate subject, its JP name indicates a mere behavioral/situational variant of Undergrunt itself. If ''anything'', Undergrunt Gunner could be merged with Undergrunt fully while the Bazookas are split, but I feel that to be excessive. (Also, I think it needs to be gotten out of peoples' heads that these are Koopa Clown Cars. Flying pods in general are not necessarily the same thing. There's nothing indicating "clown" about them, and even the RemoCon Clown had juxtaposition.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:43, September 29, 2020 (EDT)

== German Name and Trading Card ==

I find it weird how Undergrunt Gunner has the same German name as Monty Mole for when they are in the copters. It seems like Undergrunts are just a separate species of moles unrelated to the Monty Mole species so it might’ve just been a mistranslation. What do you guys think about the German name? Also for some reason, there is no info on the Undergrunt Gunner’s trading card. Did the trading card ever say anything on them being related to Monty Mole or no? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 13:49, October 21, 2021 (EDT)

== Future Split ==

This definitely deserves a split, I'll do it after April 1st, how a miniboss can be combined with a common enemy, and how both versions of the miniboss can be together with different attack methods and aparreances, this has no justification, not even by name since each one has its own in each language.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 17:30, March 22, 2025 (EDT)

== Split {{fake link|Water Bazooka}} and {{fake link|Electric Bazooka}} from Undergrunt Gunner ==
{{settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|cancelled}}
Where to start?
1. Each of these three individuals has their own name in "Each Language."
2. While the other two are bosses, the Undergrunt Gunner is an enemy! I don't see any logic.
3. Yes, the Water Bazooka and Electric Bazooka operator is an Undergrunt Gunner, but that doesn't mean they're the same. It's like saying that [[Woozy Guy]], [[Itsunomanika_Heihō|Itsunomanika Heihō]], and [[Mace_Guy|Mace Guy]] are common [[Shy_Guy|Shy Guy]] because, despite acting differently and having different names, they're still regular [[Shy_Guy|Shy Guy]].
Also, as the name in each language implies, it refers to the machine rather than the operator!
4. I don't think this even needs to be emphasized, but I'll add it anyway.
Each of the three individuals to be divided acts very differently from each other.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Sorbetti}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 12, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Split Them!!!!(Support)===
#{{User|Sorbetti}} Per proposal.
<s>{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Keeping them merged doesn't make sense to me. Per proposer.</s>

===Keep Merged(Oppose)===
#{{User|Pseudo}} These are just machines operated by the Undergrunt Gunner, who always has a consistent design. The proposal claims that these three entities act differently, and while the two cannons do act differently from one another, the Undergrunt Gunner itself always looks and acts more or less the same, and all three of the boss fights against it in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' have very similar (though not identical) mechanics. I would ask: who does it actually help to split these cannons? The Gunner is never seen without its guns, so I don't see why a wiki reader would intend to look at articles for those guns separately. They have no existence outside this guy's boss fight and are not sufficiently separable from it, to me. The way the cannons' names are currently covered on the articles seems adequate.
#{{User|Arend}} I'm being reminded of the fact that there was a proposal to merge the Stompybot 3000 to [[Colonel Pluck]], as this also concerns pieces of machinery that a boss is never seen without.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: Per all. It's clearly the same guy.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} I wasn't aware of the game divide. Changing my vote, per all.
===Underground Comments===
Re: "While the other two are bosses, the Undergrunt Gunner is an enemy! I don't see any logic", the Undergrunt Gunner ''is'' a boss in ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'' who operates the Water and Electric Bazookas as part of its boss fights. In ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'', the Undergrunt Gunner is a generic enemy instead of a boss, but it's still the same creature with the same name and design (keep in mind that the name Undergrunt Gunner is used in-game in the first game by Captain Toad). Characters can sometimes change roles between enemies and bosses between games, but that doesn't make them separate entities. See [[Wiggler]], who is a generic enemy in ''[[Super Mario World]]'', but a boss in ''[[Super Mario 64]]''. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 02:03, March 29, 2025 (EDT)

{{@|PrincessPeachFan}}: The proposal is not saying that the Undergrunt Gunner manning the Water Bazooka is different from the Undergrunt Gunner manning the Electric Bazooka: it's about splitting ''both bazookas'' from the Undergrunt Gunner. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:02, March 29, 2025 (EDT)

{{@|Pseudo}} {{@|Arend}}  {{@|PrincessPeachFan}} Yes, what you said is right, but you were wrong on one point, and that's my point.

There are times when enemies like Shy Guys or Koopas tend to act differently between games, using new mechanics, weapons, or outfits. Are we going to separate them? No.

But we have pages like woozy guy or mace guy, but why, why do we have them separated if they are still shy guys with different mechanics? Simple, because they are recognized by Nintendo as separate entities, it is the same case of this article, if the undergunt gunner is the one who operates the bazookas, but as the name indicates it refers more to the weapon than to the operator, and Nintendo in each guide, each page, and in Mario portal classifies them as different entities, if you want in the undergunt Gunner article we can mention that there are 2 bosses that are operated by undergunt gunners, but they do not deserve to be together.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 09:42, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
:The difference here to me is that in the vast majority of games in which they appear, Shy Guys are seen on their own without leaping around or swinging maces, and this is in fact the default state of Shy Guys even in ''SMW2: Yoshi's Island''. The contrast between ordinary Shy Guys, Woozy Guys, and Mace Guys is manifestly obvious in that game because the majority of Shy Guys a player sees in this game and related games are "ordinary" Shy Guys.

:On the other hand, as I said in my opposition vote, the Undergrunt Gunner is never without its guns. There are a few different guns it uses, sure, and that’s worth mentioning, but it is ultimately defined by being a boss (or enemy in the second game) who operates a cannon, never seen on its own (the closest to this guy being seen on its own is the ordinary [[Undergrunt]], who ''does'' deservedly have a separate article).

:I would again ask: who does this help, from your perspective? What aid will it provide to wiki navigation to split the cannons? Undergrunt Gunner is never seen without one of these cannons, so there's little to say about them individually. Arend is right to bring up [[Colonel Pluck]] and the Stompybot 3000 as a point of comparison. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 10:44, March 29, 2025 (EDT)

:...Sorbetti, you do realize that Woozy Guy and Mace Guy are kind of ''bad examples'' for this, right? When it comes to what the actually do, these Shy Guys do ''something completely different compared to normal Shy Guys'', and THAT, ''alongside'' its name, justifies a split: Woozy Guy moves about by flip-jumping forwards, while Mace Guy stays in one place as it spins around a spiked ball on a chain (like those on maces). And a regular Shy Guy... just walks.<br>Compare that to the Bazookas that the Undergrunt Gunner operates: the ONLY difference is the projectile that it's shooting. If you want an actual good example for justifying a split, you need to find a pair of enemies that do something similar but have a different projectile or weapon, which this wiki has plenty of: [[Fire Bro]] and [[Ice Bro]], for example.<br>Even then, you're still ignoring the fact that an Undergrunt Gunner is ''never seen without either bazooka cannon in Galaxy 1''. Again, this makes the whole Woozy Guy/Mace Guy/Shy Guy thing incomparable (and the same goes for the Fire Bro/Ice Bro thing I just mentioned), since these are all separate entities that can ''operate on their own''. This is more of a [[Dribble & Spitz]]-type situation where you ''never see one without the other''. Or, as I previously mentioned, [[Colonel Pluck]] with his Stompybot 3000. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:01, March 29, 2025 (EDT)

my opinion is that the Water and Electric bazookas should stay together, but the tiny, clown-car esque pod that shoots bullet bills should be split. could an option be made for that? {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 11:34, March 29, 2025 (EDT)

==Regarding the previous==
I want to point out that in the Japanese script, these are treated as the same "enemy" as [[Undergrunt]]s themselves, while the vehicles are treated as the bosses (the latter of which is reflected on Portal). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:09, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
:MMMM, I still don't see the reason for keeping Undergrunt Gunner with Water and Electric Bazooka, I'll cancel the proposal to try to discuss it in the discord server[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 11:11, March 29, 2025 (EDT)
:What about the Undergrunt Gunners in ''Galaxy 2''? {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:35, March 29, 2025 (EDT)