Editing Talk:Undergrunt

==Should the Undergrunts be related to Monty Mole or not?==
{{TPP}}
I wanted to discuss this topic to see what the Mario Wiki thinks about the moles in Mario Galaxy being Monty Mole species or not. Yes, I do know that we classify them as unrelated as of now, but I made this proposal due to some people still thinking they are related even after the agreement of them being not. So anyways, I am curious on what this wiki thinks about these mole species being related or not.

'''Proposer''': {{User|MontyMoleLoreMaster}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 13, 2021 23:59 GMT

===Option 1: They are most likely unrelated to the Monty Mole species, due to no concrete info saying otherwise.===
#{{User|MontyMoleLoreMaster}} I do not see why some people say that they are Monty Mole species. Nobody ever says other moles not confirmed to be Monty Mole species are related to Monty Moles so I do not see why the Undergrunts get a pass since they also have no official sources stating them as Monty Mole species. So yeah, I believe that the moles in Super Mario Galaxy were meant to be a separate mole species unrelated to Monty Mole. I only think people confused them as being related because of them being in a main series game and having a few similarities to the Monty Mole species.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per MontyMoleLoreMaster.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Clearly. Just because they're moles, doesn't mean they're related. They may be comparable, but definitely being relatives of Monty Moles, or being Monty Moles at all? No, no confirmation on that. At least Ragumo had a Japanese media noting the similarity. Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all.

===Option 2: I think that they are unrelated to Monty Mole, however, I believe an official source somewhere might say that they are related===
#{{User|OhoJeeOnFire}} I personally think that this makes the most sense.

===Option 3: I don’t care wether they are related to Monty Mole or not.===

===Option 4: They are most likely related or are relatives to the Monty Mole species, due to some of the similarities or the German name.===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - There's too many design similarities (especially to the early days, note the cheeks) for it to be a coincidence. While I wouldn't call them a "variant" without more concrete evidence, I think relative is fine.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} They share some distinguishable traits with Monty Moles anyways (and [[Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)|their relatives]] also bear similarities with Rocky Wrenches), so I think this makes the most sense.
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick. This would additionally create a large inconsistency to how we treat the difference between [[Swoop]] and [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)]].

===Option 5: Undergrunts are meant to be the exact same as Monty Moles, just with a different design and name (same applies with Montys and Rocky Wrenches).===

===Comments===
I think saying they are comparable is the best option due to the similarities. And also for the fact that they are never confirmed to be related at all. Ragumo at least was mentioned of being a Monty Mole relative yet the Undergrunts were not (for all we know). I believe that Undergrunts were probably at least inspired by Monty Moles, I just don’t think they are meant to be related to them since if they were, a guidebook would most likely claim them to be Monty Mole species like Ragumo (I have not checked any Japanese guidebooks so maybe they say that they are related in those? If they do could someone check it out?). I was wondering about that German name for Undergrunt Gunner? What would that play into this? (Correction: it is not really the name of origin since it is German and not Japanese which are usually the sources of names. So it is still probably up in the air for now about the relations). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 18:07, November 30, 2021 (EST)

:@Doc von Schmeltwick, Also there are other enemies with similarities to specific species that are not considered related to said species. For example,  Skeletal Fish Guards that also appeared in Super Mario Galaxy are similar to Fishbones in terms of design and functionality. However, they are not considered related to them due to no official sources claiming it. I believe the same can apply for Undergrunts and Monty Moles. Yeah the Undergrunts have some similarities in design and attack patterns. But they seem to be separate to the Monty Mole species like how Skeletal Fish Guards are separate to Fishbones. If they were meant to be related, one of the English guidebooks (such as the Prima ones) would have probably confirmed it. I think Prima never claimed them to be Monty Mole species due to them not thinking they were related (since they would probably said they were related otherwise). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:34, November 30, 2021 (EST)
::Thing is, SMG "Monty" is pretty much conceptually identical to Rocky Wrench (to the point there ''must'' be some influence), and Undergrunt is derived from it (to the point that before evidence showing otherwise, the wiki made the reasonable assumption they were one-off redesigns of Rocky and Monty). Anyways, since I stand by Monty Mole being derived from Rocky Wrench, this makes the most sense to me. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:52, December 2, 2021 (EST)
:::I also want to point out that Super Mario-kun also never considered them related. Major Burrows appeared in the Galaxy arc and they made no reference to them being Monty Mole species or made them designed to look like them (Maruigi Khed told me). Several moles such as Guragura and Hard Hat also appeared in the manga with no design changes or mentions of them being Monty Mole species as well. On the contrary, Ragumo was designed to look like Monty Mole in volume 6. This is probably because they actually had an official source at least hinting at them being relatives. So yeah, Super Mario-kun probably makes some moles look like Monty Moles due to them having an official confirmation or similar appearance to them. But if a mole had no official sources saying they were related such as Major Burrows they would treat them as a separate species. I think this might also hint at the Japanese guidebooks also not saying this at all. If they did think Major Burrows was related, I believe they would make them designed like Monty Mole or just state it due to a Japanese guidebook saying it. I think them not stating it is probably a subtle way of them thinking they are not related, due to no official sources saying otherwise. Also about your last comment, there are other video game enemies such as Madmole that have token inspiration from Rocky Wrench’s attack patterns. I think the SMG Monty probably took inspiration from the attack patterns and nothing else. Also I don't think they look like any Monty Mole species due to nose, eyes, and even the size being to large. They just look completely separate in my personal opinion. Other moles such as the Mario RPG Moles and Cook from Wario Land 2 have similar designs to Monty Mole yet have nothing related to that species. I believe the same can apply for Undergrunts due to them looking completely different and it was probably coincidental. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:02, December 2, 2021 (EST)
::::"Mole-looking thing that throws mushrooms from another franchise owned by another company" is different from "mole-looking thing that throws wrenches." Also, SM-K is a licensed work, so it's not that much closer to Nintendo EAD's specific vision than the DiC cartoons. It also needs said that before NSMBW standardized designs across the board, Nintendo was still experimenting how things in the series should look (note how Urchins in SMG look slightly different from later). It's the same reason we assumed (incorrectly) that Spoing and Sprangler were another Scuttle Bug redesign and that Bat was another Swoop redesign (though admittedly it was in early development). I wouldn't treat SMG Monty as a subtype of Rocky Wrench without explicit proof, but it's effectively a counterpart, and the same goes for Undergrunt with Monty Mole (note that Monty Moles leave similar mole trails in later ''Mario Kart'' games, and the reddish coloration of SMG Monty resembling SMAS's Rocky Wrench, with Undergrunt being brown like Monty Moles). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:17, December 2, 2021 (EST)
:::::Well I believe if they were related, a official guidebook both either English or Japanese would just simply say that their Monty Mole species. But no guidebooks ever said that probably due to them thinking they are separate species. Also the similarities that you pointed out are a little strange. Monty Moles probably dug through the ground with trails Mario Kart Wii onwards more of an evolution to the original formula of them jumping out of their holes. I do not think Nintendo had it inspired by the Undergrunt’s attack pattern due to another point I will bring up later. SMG Montys are clearly not red, they are obviously a brown color to probably better match the Undergrunts and not Rocky Wrenches (note how they have nothing in common with Rocky Wrench in terms of design). Undergrunts being brown is also not that good of a point due to several moles in the Mario series are brown, and brown is also a very common color for moles in media so yeah no luck on that. The only similarities I can think of to the Undergrunt and Monty Mole species is that SMG Monty throws wrenches (which yes, was most likely at least inspired by Rocky Wrench, I think it probably does not go beyond just moles that throw wrenches. You also forgot that Rocky Wrenches were not really called moles often before NSMBW, mostly primarily being called turtles. However, I think they might have tried to make them more like mole-like ever since their planned appearance in Yoshi’s Island, though it is not fully 100% confirmed). And that Undergrunt Gunners have cannons like the Mario Sunshine Monty Moles. Other then those two things, they do not have much common with Monty Moles besides pretty minor similarities. I also want to point out that there was never a point in Mario history where the behavior of these moles are never used or mentioned with Monty Mole species (at least as an obvious reference). Yes, I do know that some Monty Mole species only appeared in one game, but Undergrunts reappeared in Galaxy 2 with again no references to them being Monty Mole species. Finally, one very major reason of them being unrelated is due to them not having any filenames to give say that they are related to Monty Mole (otherwise, they would probably have a reference to Pū or Choropū in their filenames). The Urchins and Bats also from Mario Galaxy at least have filenames that connect them to their species. The relationship between Undergrunts and Monty Moles is as comparable to the relationship between Skeletal Fish Guards and Fishbones due to their similarities, yet no official source confirming them being related. The Undergrunt filenames are just Japanese names for moles which probably indicates them being a totally separate species. I think that last point might be my strongest reason on why they are unrelated to Monty Mole. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:52, December 2, 2021 (EST)


It's probably too late for any big changes because there's already several votes, but I wanted to point out, I feel like Options 1 and 2 can be combined since there's always a possibility of a contradictory official source coming to light that necessitates the wiki readdress something (otherwise, it looks more like a poll, which isn't really the purpose of a proposal); Option 3 should be last since it's the status quo choice; -maybe- Option 4 could be broken down into two due to there being a difference between related and relative; and Option 5 just seems like a bridge too far and can probably be cut altogether, considering Monty Moles have never worn Undergrunt helmets and it would shake up the relation decided in [[Talk:Rocky Wrench|previous proposals]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:32, December 1, 2021 (EST)
:@LinkTheLefty, Yes I know the fifth option is incorrect, I only added it because someone still might think that way. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:02, December 3, 2021 (EST)

@FanOfYoshi, your right, but I wanted to add that they barely have any similarities to that of Monty Moles. The only major one they have is SMG Monty attacking like a Rocky Wrench. Most of the other similarities might have been loose inspiration to them like with some other enemy (like how Suu acts like a Thwomp or Skeletal Fish Guards acting like Fishbones), but I do not think it was like meant to make them fully related. They have a completely different design and behaviors (mostly), and nothing in the game files that hint at them as Monty Mole species (like how Morty Mole had Indy in their filename to indicate that they were based on Mega Moles). Super Mario Galaxy had a ton of weird enemies, so I believe that the moles seen in the Galaxy games were most likely made to be a separate species of moles unrelated to the Monty Mole species that people just confused with them (like how Super Mario RPG had a separate species of moles to use as NPCs with no relations to Monty Mole). The points you made are extremely valid, but I wanted to add on with my thoughts as well. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:26, December 6, 2021 (EST)

I am surprised how mixed the results were. I did want to add one thing really quick, despite SMG Monty acting like Rocky Wrench, they do not appear in any airship levels. This game was meant to be a big return for airships, yet, SMG Monty never appears in any of those levels. I find it weird how they made an entirely different mole enemy that acts like Rocky Wrench to only not use them in any airship levels, despite this game trying to be the big "return" of airships. Personally, New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario 3D Land defiantly felt more like big returns to airships then Galaxy ever tried to be. Plus, those two games actually had Rocky Wrenches and not an unrelated Mole species that copied off of them. I know that they are definitely not Rocky Wrenches or even being related to them, but I just wanted to point this out. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 14:01, December 11, 2021 (EST)

I want to add one last comment before the proposal ends. Monty Moles rarely are ever featured in space areas. The only times the species have ever been to space were the two Monty Mole Constellations in Mario Party 9 and Island Tour, Mischievous Mole digging through the moon, and finally, appearing on a few small asteroids alongside a big Monty Mole in the Yoshi’s Crafted World level The Countdown Begins. Monty Moles are rarely seen in space, and considering that Undergrunts only appear in the Mario Galaxy games, I think it makes it more obvious that they are unrelated. Undergrunts seem like a separate species of mole that appear only in space, with Monty Moles being more on earth. This actually explains why they are never referenced to the Monty Mole species, it is because they are an entirely different species of mole far away from the Monty Mole species. I think this is even more solid evidence to say that they are not related. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 18:04, December 13, 2021 (EST)
:I'm pretty sure setting has absolutely nothing to do with the two enemies; Undergrunts are featured in a level with a blue sky filled with fruit and caterpillars eating it. Plus, the same thing applies to [[Swoop]] and the bats from Super Mario Galaxy (even sharing the same Japanese name as them) and they're still considered variants. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 22:57, December 13, 2021 (EST)
::The setting point is understandable. But the difference between comparing the bats and Swoop over Undergrunts and Monty Moles is that with the bats they do have an official filename that shares a Japanese name with Swoop. Undergrunts on the other hand have no filename that hints at them being Monty Mole species. If they were planned to be related, they would have probably used a Monty Mole-like filename instead of just generic Japanese mole names. Both the bats and Undergrunts are in Mario Galaxy, so maybe it was intentional for the bats to be related to Swoops, but the Undergrunts to stay separate to Monty Mole. Besides, the Undergrunt species barely have anything in common with the Monty Mole species besides some similarities. The only major thing they share is a mole that throws wrenches and that is about it. Undergrunts are also never compared to Monty Mole species in any official English or Japanese guidebooks I know of (unless I am wrong). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:09, December 13, 2021 (EST)
:::They're relatives of Montys, so I think they're related by proxy. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 23:12, December 13, 2021 (EST)