Editing Talk:Toad

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*'''[[Talk:Toad/Archive 1|Archive 1 (1-50)]]'''
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== Merge Toad to Toad (Species) ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-13|do not merge}}
This has gone on for far too long. All this talk about "this toad is the Toad" "no this toad is the Toad" has to stop. Enough is enough! Nintendo isn't making it easier by changing their story all the time on whether or not there is a singular Toad. I think the safest thing to do is exactly what my proposal says. We need to merge this article to the article for the species, and if there's anything in the article about one of the toads that's often confused to be Toad, we can move that information there.

If this proposal passes, I will make similar proposals for Yoshi, Birdo, and Kamek (although I don't really know about Kamek since the English for the species is Magikoopa).

'''Proposer''': {{User|Magikrazy}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 20, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

===No Toad, merge with species===
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Well this is a surprise, someone actually did what I would have done. Nevertheless, I might as well be the only other person to support this. From what I've seen, the majority of these "the" Toad appearances and bios are the result of this Wiki's intepretation. What exactly gives "the" Toad his distinct persona again? His name? Interchangable with other Toads. His personality? Not much different from generic Toads. The use of pronoun "he"? Besides gender (note: Toads are sexless, not genderless) and specifics, that's applicable to generic Toads. The bios? When generic enemies have their own bios which treat them as their own characters, this point is moot. The appearance? Okay, this might have some merit, but that's only depending on the game. I don't count games where multiple Toads with the standard look appear, and I'm still skeptical about games where only one Toad with the standard look is playable, because in Mario games, the standard look gets usually priority, expections including ''3D World'' and ''Sticker Star''. As I said in the deleted Toad related proposal, I consider the Japanese Mario fans lucky, because they aren't bothered to argue about which Toad is "the" Toad, because to them it seems clear the generic Toads don't have much going for them.
#{{User|Aokage}} The "3D World Blue Toad = ''the'' Toad" decision is a prime example of how people are just labeling whichever Toad they want as ''the'' Toad. Had they known Captain Toad was going to get a bigger role in his own game, they probably would've wanted him to be ''the'' Toad instead. It's clear that Nintendo - especially NoJ - doesn't really have this concept of "Toad the Toad".

===There is a Toad, keep===
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Though the issue is very muddled, this is a very radical decision and will affect a ton of articles on the wiki. Nevertheless, there are countless sources where Toad is portrayed as his own character. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show is one of them, as well as numerous character bios. I'm not going to much detail about this but there is indeed a Toad that exists and this route is just the easiest route that will simply cause more controversy than there already is.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Regardless of who's who, there's still clearly is an individual Toad that has appeared throughout the games: Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario 64 and its remake, Wario's Woods, the cartoons, the comics, all of the spin-offs, and probably some other stuff... Vaporizing all of that individuality because of some tussling between newer games is an extreme absolute that would cause so much more of a mess than it's worth.
#{{User|Mario}} I'm not comfortable with this change. As opposers said, Toad does have his own identity, and I'd rather not sacrifice individuality just because he looks the same. We have a good compromise called the "Possible appearances", which should do its job at this confusion. I don't see any problem with what we're working with, and I feel that there's no need to change it.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per all. I haven't been following the Blue Toad/Captain Toad debacle too closely, but it wouldn't change Toad's history.
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} There is a Toad species, and a Toad. This has been confirmed in every game. We are not to change the facts of a game. And shame you for even trying to. We might merge Mario and Human if we do this. Thats like merging you and user. Seriously, this is STUPID. And per all.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per Baby Luigi, Time Turner and Mario. The non-game media are just as relevant as the games, and both they and earlier games have singular Toad characters. Nowadays we also have Captain Toad and a Blue Toad filling the roles that ''the'' Toad had before: it confuses the issue, but it doesn't invalidate the old appearances, and the best thing to do with the mess is to cover ''everything'' with as little judgment calls as possible using the Possible Appearances section and three separate pages for the three possible "personas" Nintendo picks from. Merging ''the'' Toad's character page would be going in the complete opposite direction if we want to be thorough and transparent.
#{{User|3D Player 2004}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Sonic98}} Per all.
#{{User|Madz the Penguin}} There is "the Toad". It's confirmed in Mario Kart games, Mario Party games, Mario shows, etc. He might be hard to find, but he's there. Also, if we merge Toad and his species, then we may have tons of ridiculous debates like, "should we merge [[Toadette]] with Toad species? Toad was merged, and there are tons of Toadettes out there!".
#{{User|BabyLuigi64}} We know there is "the" Toad because we see him (it?) enough, and we know when we see "the" Toad because there is something to distinguishing him from other red-spot-capped Toads, and that is his blue vest. We know he's not just another random Toad. Per the above.
#{{User|Magikrazy}} Ok, so I was incorrect. I have since realized that Toad's Japanese name is different from the other toads. Knowing this, I believe that the toad with the blue mushroom cap and vest is Toad, and Captain Toad is not.
#{{User|Paper Iggy Koopa}} Per All, this article will become improperly grammimatical due to the fact saying "Toad is toad" every 5 seconds of reading

===Comments===
I'll have more to say later when I can get to a computer. All that I'll say for now is that the cartoons, comics, etc are not canon and shouldn't count. Even if they did, nowhere is it mentioned that the toad in one episode or issue is the same in the others. Is it because they have the same look and voice? A lot of the birds by my house look and sound the same, but that doesn't mean they're all one bird. As for the games, some of them have a lone toad in them, but it never states that all these are the same toad. The fact they're all referred to as Toad shows that they're all just generic toads and should be treated as such. {{User|Magikrazy}}
:First of all, canonicity anywhere near the Mario series is [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|completely irrelevant]] and generally not a good practice, but besides that, the Toad that appears in all of these mediums are never referred to as '''a''' Toad (which would lead to the thought process that the Toads are merely generic), only simply as '''Toad''', heavily implying, if not outright confirming, that these Toads are all one and the same. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::''"A lot of the birds by my house look and sound the same, but that doesn't mean they're all one bird."'' 
::Um, you're not getting it. We're not arguing that all Toads are clones of Toad himself. Toad, however, is indistinguishable from every other Toad, which makes it confusing, but he still has his own identity.
::A better analogy is this: there are a lot of crows around my house. They all look the same, but one recognizes me when I leave out peanuts in the yard, and is distinguishable because the bird always comes here at the same time of the day. But really, who knows if it's a pair of clever crows instead? But the crow is still a notable individual that can be confused with her peers, hence why we have an article on Toad. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:50, 6 December 2014 (EST)

"I'll have more to say later when I can get to a computer. All that I'll say for now is that the cartoons, comics, etc are not canon and shouldn't count. "

Even if we accept that premise, the wiki still covers characters for the cartoon/comics/movie and thus Toad would '''still''' warrant a page because he's clearly treated as an individual character in those. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:34, 6 December 2014 (EST)

@Toadbrigade: I suggest you leave out "this is stupid" remarks since Magikrazy does have a logical reason for attempting to merge the page. Merging "Mario and Human" is a very poor analogy to this as Mario is clearly his own identity while Toad is something far more ambigious. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 19:21, 6 December 2014 (EST)
:Sorry, I was mad. This is kinda sabotaging my favorite character, but I'm not changing it. Also, DOES he have a logical reason? I seriously doubt it (No offense intended). My examples suck I understand, but still. [[User:Toadbrigade5|Toadbrigade5]] ([[User talk:Toadbrigade5|talk]]) 21:31, 6 December 2014 (EST)
::As I have said, yes, his reason is logical, even though it is highly flawed. Toad being his own character is a very ambiguous issue that Nintendo is still pretty foggy about, hence why we still have debates about Blue Toad in Super Mario 3D World being Toad and what not. Just as [[Koopa Troopa]] doesn't have its own character article and neither does Lakitu, Toad can fall under their scope in not receiving his own article. The problem with Magikrazy's logic, as we all had stated, is that Toad is most certainly established in some games as his own character, whereas Koopa Troopa and Lakitu are not compared to Toad. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 21:40, 6 December 2014 (EST)

Supporters seem to think that Japanese games never made it clear there was an individual Toad, but there already was a singular "Kinopio" character in at least [http://blogs.c.yimg.jp/res/blog-35-81/konaginn284/folder/903953/66/11670966/img_5?1214873605 ''Super Mario RPG''] and the [http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Toadette-I-Think-508x375.png ''Super Mario Bros.'' anime] (and perhaps other spinoff examples). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:39, 7 December 2014 (EST)

Cartoons and comics are considered canon because Mario is a very different franchise. It's not like the Legend of Zelda where it has a very clear timeline where non-canon things (like Hyrule Warriors, Faces of Evil, and Wands of Gamelon) aren't there. Mario's timeline is very vague, so it's safe to say everything Mario, even Hotel Mario, is canon, except for fanmade works on Fanfiction or other websites like that. [[User:Madz the Penguin|Madz the Penguin]] ([[User talk:Madz the Penguin|talk]]) 12:08, 7 December 2014 (EST)

Comment spree~
*'''@Baby Luigi:''' If establishing a generic member as "the" member means single pronouns and whatnot, then by all means [http://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/Super_Mario_Bros-NES.pdf most] [http://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/Super_Mario_Bros_2-NES.pdf of] [http://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/smb3_nes_manual.pdf enemies] [http://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/super_mario_world-snes.pdf listed] in these manuals should get singular character treatment. It's not just old manuals, as [[List_of_Koopa_Troopa_profiles_and_statistics#Mario_Party_9|some]] [[List_of_Dry_Bones_profiles_and_statistics#Mario_Kart_DS|of]] [[List_of_Shy_Guy_profiles_and_statistics#Mario_Kart_8|the]] playable characters have bios which give them "the" character treatment, yet we don't give them their "the" character pages like "the" Toad because... why?
*'''@Time Turner:''' So are Toads in ''SM3DW'' Toad Houses simply called Toads, [http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Wii-U/SUPER-MARIO-3D-WORLD-765385.html both on official European site] and [http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/718915-super-mario-3d-world/69189908 in the soundtrack description].
*'''@Mario:''' A crow with unique demeanor is more comparable to Toadette or Toadsworth rather than "the" Toad behavior wise, because they are more fleshed out in that department. Besides, is the behavior the result of special treatment? It can be said that Toadette and Toadsworth got special treatment for their designs, but "the" Toad, said to be distinguished from other generic Toads, is still very generic with no notable differences. He's practically replacable to the point of nothing of value being lost if a Toad posing as "the" Toad was actually there.
*'''@LinkTheLefty:''' What exactly are these pics supposed to prove, especially the second one? Just because a Kinopio is called "Kinopio" it doesn't make him "the" Kinopio. And what makes one of those anime Kinopios "the" Kinopio? Her prominence over the others? Or her mere presence? Yes, I'm calling that Kinopio "her", because [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parHn9LDQBU#t=165 that's what she is there.]

That's all folks. -[[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 18:59, 7 December 2014 (EST)

@'''SmokedChili:''' The first picture proves that Kinopio is treated in ''Super Mario RPG'' in the same way that Toad is treated in our version - as a single recurring character. His dialog box uniquely identifies him even among a small crowd, and doesn't apply to any other generic Toads that show up (also noted when he's not in the castle). In addition, his species is unnamed in that particular appearance, so at least as far as that game's story is concerned, there is only one Toad/Kinopio. As for the anime film, that retainer says his/her/its name is Kinopio, and (if memory serves) the other members of the species are called mushroom people by the sage character. You might consider these artistic licenses, but it is what it is. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:16, 7 December 2014 (EST)
:So if some generic Toad is called "Toad", that's automatic evidence for "the" Toad? And if キノコー族 "Mushroom People" is used of them, then there has to be the specific キノピオ Kinopio? I find that questionable. キノコー族 refers to the entirety of Toads, which includes the generic Toads, Toadette, Toadsworth etc. Invidual generic Toads are still called キノピオ, which makes it more likely that there are multiple unspecific Toads than "the" Toad somewhere. Check the Japanese ''Mario 3'' manual for example. In it, Kinopio is said to wish good luck to the Mario Bros. along with Peach, yet there are multiple キノピオの家 Kinopio Houses found in the game. So where is "the" Kinopio then? Related to that, in ''3D World'', we have at least two Kinopios: the playable one, and one in Kinopio House going by [http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9Abi_manZjc/Uv1sdYS7NYI/AAAAAAAAWLU/Uvg1eOD5t_0/s1600/Booklet+07-08.jpg this]. If the color change is justified, then either could "the" Kinopio, or not. And considering more and more evidence points to Captain Kinopio being "the" Kinopio, conflicting with ''3D World'' Kinopio being him, it could be said that "the" Kinopio's status in ''3D World'' is indefinite. -[[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 09:13, 8 December 2014 (EST)
::You're looking at the series as a whole; I'm looking at specific instances and thinking, "what does that particular story consider these characters?" It's fairly obvious that the writers of ''Super Mario RPG'' deliberately interpreted Toad/Kinopio as a name for one character. Like I stated as my stance, new information doesn't outright rewrite history - if the creators want to make certain things their "current story", it is so, but it doesn't completely replace the old one. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:42, 8 December 2014 (EST)

@'''Magikrazy''', you weren't incorrect. Toads, excluding the the few named ones such as Toadette and Toadsworth, are all known as Kinopios in Japan. [[User:Aokage|Aokage]] ([[User talk:Aokage|talk]]) 10:14, 8 December 2014 (EST)

@'''LinkTheLefty:''' Of course new info doesn't outright rewrite history, but it doesn't take out the fact that generic Toads' inviduality among each other hasn't been that clear since day one. ''Super Mario RPG'' may be an expection, but expections shouldn't warrant their own pages for the sake of clarification. Like the [[Flopsy Fish]] article. It's redundant in the presence of the [[Cheep Cheep]] article, which already acknowledges that "Flopsy Fish" is just an alternative name. Likewise, Toad (species) article can mention in case of merging that there is one Toad who is called "Toad" in ''Super Mario RPG''. It wouldn't be that different from how the Cheep Cheep deals with Flopsy Fish, and doesn't downright rewrite history. -[[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 11:36, 8 December 2014 (EST)

== Hebrew name ==

In the Hebrew dub of TSMBSS, he is called פטריון (Pitrion). [[User:RaguRando|RaguRando]] ([[User talk:RaguRando|talk]]) 14:30, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
:Does it mean anything in particular, or is it a common Hebrew name? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:42, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
::It's based on the word פטרייה (Pitriya, mushroom). [[User:RaguRando|RaguRando]] ([[User talk:RaguRando|talk]]) 15:51, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Okay, that's interesting. Thanks for the info! {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:01, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

==3D Land Toad==
Why is the SM3DW's playable Toad considered the original Toad? It's much more likely that Captain Toad is the same as this page's red Toad. If anything this blue Toad is just a filler playable character to replace the now independent original. {{unsigned|anjeronett}}
:At this point, it seems more like there just plain isn't a Toad character, and all the ones that have ever been identified as such are just generic members of the species. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:44, 19 February 2018 (EST)
::Without delving in that definitely hot topic, the reason is that even the [[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]] names the Toad of ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'' 「キノピオ」, rather than 「あおキノピオ」, the name of Blue Toad. And after all, Toad in ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' was fully blue, and it's pretty clear that the characters' part of ''Super Mario 3D World'' was inspired by that game. Anyway, regarding the matter of [[Captain Toad]], there is this very interesting excerpt from the ''Super Mario Pia'', the 25th anniversary memorial book, which was translated by {{User|2257}}:
<blockquote>
キノピオ<br/>
キノコ王国の住人たち。ピーチをさらわれてマリオに助けを求めるのがお約束のシリーズを代表するキャラで、赤色や黄色などカラーはさまざま。また、キノじいやキノピオ隊長など固有の名前をもつものもいる。<br/>
登場作品 SM, SM2, SM3, USA, SM64, SMS, NSM, SMG, NSMW, SMG2, 3DL, NSM2, NSMU, 3DW
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
Toad<br/>
The inhabitants of the Mushroom Kingdom. Seeking Mario's help when Peach has been kidnapped is a typical characteristic representing this series [of characters], and they come in various colors such as red and yellow. Also, there are some who have unique names, such as Toadsworth, Captain Toad, and the like.<br/>
Appears in works: SMB, SMBTLL, SMB3, SMB2, SM64, SMS, NSMB, SMG, NSMBW, SMG2, SM3DL, NSMB2, NSMBU, SM3DW.
</blockquote>
::Captain Toad, who has his own entry in the characters' section of the book, is not considered the same as Toad in that he has a unique name which is not just ''Toad'', and now he has his own appearance too.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:16, 21 March 2018 (EDT)
:::This section also does not seem to be referring to the "character" of "Toad," given that there was no specified "character" named that in most of those games, while NSMB just had multiple copies of Toadsworth outside of minigames. As such, it doesn't really imply that it is the same "character," but rather that there is no consistent "character." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:18, 10 April 2018 (EDT)

== It was confirmed that toads "cap" cannot be removed ==

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVNYfoFcrZY is my source. as far as i can tell, this is nintendo's official youtube.(it's a copy/paste link, not sure it will work)
{{unsigned|Random}}
:[[Toad#Physical appearance|Already in the article]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:24, 23 February 2018 (EST)

== Split {{fake link|Toad (item)}} from Toad ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|4-5-0|merge to 1-Up Mushroom}}
Despite the fact that the ''[[Hotel Mario]]'' manual describes the Toad item as "TOAD" himself, it describes this as awkwardly as the aforementioned game itself. This specific "mushroom" isn't even a character, and barely even resembles Toad - it's just an item that grants an extra life when Fire Mario stands near an open door. Considering we've recently re-split [[Morty Mole]] from [[Mega Mole]], I think I'm seeing a similar case here (especially revolving around [[1-Up Mushroom]]s), and would like to hear users' opinions on this.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Toadette the Achiever}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' April 10, 2018, 23: 59 GMT

===Split into its own article===
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} This is basically an interpreted composite of both Toad and 1-Up Mushroom to the point that it barely resembles either and would be better off in its own article. Per Toadette.
#{{user|Wildgoosespeeder}} When replacing the sprite back in 2016, I found it strange to be put in the main [[{{ARTICLEPAGENAME}}]] article. I didn't question it because I didn't know much about it and ''[[Hotel Mario]]'' is an obscure title that [[Nintendo]] doesn't even want to consider [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|canon]], let alone fans. I was just concerned about replacing the sprite at the time. Splitting makes sense, now the topic has been revisited. I had since forgotten about it.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all.

===Merge over to [[1-Up Mushroom]]===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Based on the 1-Up alternatively being called Extra Mario Mushroom in SMW, I'm more in favor of a merge with 1-Up Mushroom.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per my comments.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{user|Wildgoosespeeder}} At the time of my previous vote, this option didn't exist. I am also OK with this option because the ''Hotel Mario'' Toad behaves like a 1-Up Mushroom.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.

===Do nothing===

===Comments===
The game's version of Banzai Bill isn't that much bigger than than a usual Bullet Bill (or really any different design-wise for that matter), but still we stick to how Fantasy Factory / Philips Media presented their game. I think the question is, why should we change what's already there in print? (And how is this similar to the Mega Mole / Morty Mole situation?) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:38, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

May I see a scan of the infamous enclosed instruction book so I can be absolutely sure what this says? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:17, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:This was what the manual read: ''"If Fire Mario opens a door with a Super Mushroom behind it, the mushroom turns into TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom. He gives Mario an extra life."'' I don't actually own the manual, but [https://archive.org/stream/HotelMarioUSAManual/Hotel%20Mario%20%28USA%29#page/n11/mode/2up here's a link to it]. Hope that helps! {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 17:30, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::[https://archive.org/stream/HotelMarioUSAManual/Hotel%20Mario%20%28USA%29#page/n7/mode/2up And the "Mario's Friends" section] just says "Toad" and annunciates the sentence as if it were a character. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:45, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:::That's not to say that we have [[Toad (move)|the Toad move]] split from the character. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 17:49, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::::Well, I actually just went ahead and scanned the relevant pages in my own manual, but looks like there is no need to upload it anymore (mine is apparently a European copy with three more languages, and for some reason, Monty Mole is missing from the English instructions but still there in the other three, among other oddities). I do want to point out, though, that "Coins", "Super Mushroom", "Fire Flower", and "Star Man" are also listed as "Mario's Friends" in the manual, and those can't really be considered characters. On the other hand, it's called "Toad" more than once in the manual, and it appears in different circumstances than a normal 1-Up Mushroom. Just to clarify, this proposal would turn Extra Mario Mushroom into its own article separate from both Toad and 1-Up Mushroom, correct? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:48, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:::::Yes it would, but see my reply to Doc below. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 18:54, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
Also want to point out, "Extra Mario Mushroom" is an alternate name for the 1up Mushroom used in [http://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_SNES/manual/Formated/Super_Mario_World_-_1991_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Super Mario World'']. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:05, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:Then maybe it should be called {{fake link|Toad (item)}} instead...? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 18:41, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

@Link-the-Lefty Then what to do about the game's Banzai Bill, which resembles the actual Banzai Bill even less than this resembles the standard 1up? The original 1up was primarily orange, and it was red in SMB2, just a reminder. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:26, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:It is still ''a little bit'' bigger than Mario, whereas in most 2D games, Bullet Bill is approximately the size of Small Mario. Besides, a lot of the game's enemy designs are off-model anyway. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:50, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::Just as every ''Super Mario World'' sprite is off-model, and anyways, none of the enemies are any more off-model than this game's "Extra Mario Mushroom." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:58, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:::The difference between this item/"character" and everything else in the game is that it is officially given two different names, which are otherwise consistently depicted as two entirely separate subjects everywhere else in the series without exception, as opposed to an unambiguous single name that would place it in one article in a very straightforward manner. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:20, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::::I see that as more unnecessary obfuscation. It has two names typically reserved for two different things, yes, but it follows the function of one of those things fairly well, and in fact moreso than the counterpart of Wiggler in that game. This should become a multi-option proposal. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:03, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:::::But it's not like it's only referred to as Toad only once and it never comes up again; it's first seen under Extra Mario Mushroom, where it's described as "''TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom''" in the same sentence, and then it's switched to Toad in the rest of the manual when it's listed among the other friendly items. This looks like it's a combination of both concepts. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:10, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::::::Except the only thing it borrows from the concept of the character is the name, though I suppose you could stretch the color in as well. This honestly seems to need what currently is happening between [[Block Boo]] and [[Red Boo]] (while those need switched around). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:34, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:::::::But even if it is indeed closer to one of them over the other in practice, it's still different enough from your average 1-Up Mushroom. "''If Fire Mario opens a door with a Super Mushroom behind it, the mushroom turns into TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom.''" It is directly part of the game's power-up chain (ie. Super Mushroom and Fire Flower), which is never the case in any other game. "''Toad looks similar to the Super Mushroom but moves faster.''" That is a completely unique characteristic exclusive to this appearance. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:50, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::::::::As is the behavior of Wiggler in this game, which is outright incompatible with other appearances so behavior doesn't have much ground to stand on, as it's far more similar than some other things the game throws at us. As for what I was talking about with the Boos, currently, the info for the SMS enemy is on Red Boo while Block Boo has a link to that section, while it should be reversed, and I think that hear, the information should be on 1up Mushroom, as that's what it is, and is just as different from normal as the ones from SMB2 were. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::The focus here is on the items/"friends", not the enemies. Coins, Super Mushroom, Fire Flower, and "Star Man" are all clearly the same thing as their normal counterparts (even if Super Mario has a different appearance to better suit the gameplay). Toad / Extra Mario Mushroom is definitely the outlier of the five.  [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:48, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::I believe all gameplay elements should be treated equally regarding support for arguments. Because they should. Saying "one's an enemy and the other's helpful" has no bearing on whether something should be considered more different from their respective normal version. I think you were more on point eight years ago when you said "Go with what's recognizable. We're not creating a separate page for Skeleton Koopa, for example," or something to that effect. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:05, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::All right, then, how would you write ''Hotel Mario'''s Toad or 1-Up Mushroom in a way that doesn't rely on personal assumptions to discredit the other as mistaken? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:15, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::I would include it within the 1-up Mushroom article, as functionally, that's what it is, and is given a name for that very item at the time, not to mention being a Mushroom item that gives an extra life. I would put a {{template|Main Article}} in a ''Hotel Mario'' section on Toad's page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:46, 28 March 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::::This results in [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|overlap]], which splitting resolves. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 00:53, 28 March 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::::It doesn't if the statement on Toad's page goes as "According to the game's manual, the [[1-Up Mushroom|Extra Mario Mushroom]] is the same as Toad, despite the many irreconcilable differences between the character and item." Then, the ado about needing to be Fire Mario would go on the 1-Up page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:10, 28 March 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::However this proposal turns out, we're both in agreement that it doesn't belong in the Toad article (at least primarily), yes? So to that end, I would concur that an extra option for moving to the 1-Up Mushroom page should be included. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:32, 28 March 2018 (EDT)
@Waluigi Time: How does that help anything? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 19:45, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:Probably due to sharing at least ''a'' name as well as a function. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:47, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
::Yeah...even so, it was found that "Extra Mario Mushroom" is only used once to describe the Toad items in the manual, and "Toad" is used far more often. And also take note that we have [[1 UP Heart]] even though they look near-identical to other [[Heart]]s and function identical to 1-Up Mushrooms. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:07, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
:To me it seems more like Hotel Mario's weird version of the 1-up than its own item and would make more sense there. However I still don't think it belongs on this page, since it's definitely not Toad the character. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:08, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

Might I ask you if you can explain more clearly in the introduction why you consider this case similar to the one of Morty Moles? In that case the official name was clearly different. Here, it's the appearance and role which is clearly different, while the official name is the same. I'm guessing that you see the similarity because the internal name of Morty Moles is the official name of Mega Moles, ''Indy'', but I think it would be better if we could know that.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 15:50, 29 March 2018 (EDT)

== Reopening a can of worms ==

Since Yellow Toad seems to be referred to as simply Toad in NSMBU Deluxe, where Blue Toad is absent, is it possible that "Toad" in SM3DW actually is Blue Toad, and Nintendo didn't feel the need to distinguish between the two because Yellow Toad was absent in that game? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:15, 25 December 2018 (EST)
:Remember that ''Super Mario 3D World'' was inspired by the NES version of ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', in which Toad was fully blue. His name in both the Nintendo Official Guidebook, the Japanese site as well as the Japanese ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' is just ''Kinopio'', and that carried over in NA material as well. As far as I know, we don't have evidence that he was just meant to be Blue Toad - {{file link|EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg|since the Japanese encycloepdia clearly separated ''Ao Kinopio'' from ''Kinopio''}}, they should have used ''Ao Kinopio'' in the ''Super Mario 3D World'' section. If you want to dig deeper, you'll find that ''Kinopio'' in Japan actually means ''Toad'', ''a Toad'' and even ''the Toads'', and you'll soon discover that happened with Yellow Toad's name in ''New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe'' is likely just the consequence of a [[List of Toad profiles and statistics#Miis' Dialogues (Wii U version)|true can of worms that Nintendo revealed in a now obscure game]] and that we can't face right now, due to its far reaching implications. In any case, as far as ''Super Mario 3D World'' is concerned, we don't really have any source that points to him being a non-renamed Blue Toad rather than just Toad with a reference to how he looked in ''Super Mario Bros. 2''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:58, 26 December 2018 (EST)
::I'll further add that [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/switch/adala/pc/story/index.html since in the Japanese site of ''New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe'' Toad is correctly reported as ''Kiiro Kinopio'' (= Yellow Toad)], we have even less reasons to open can of worms right now!--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:09, 26 December 2018 (EST)
:::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAXicfW9oO8&t=13m42s Kinopio] was heard in the Nintendo Direct, and for the record, while the ''Super Mario 3D World'' character is plainly labeled as "<tt>Kinopio</tt>" everywhere including the game files, that model is renamed "<tt>KinopioBlue</tt>" in ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker'' (as Captain Toad, who was "<tt>KinopioBrigade</tt>" internally, now takes the generic "<tt>Kinopio</tt>" slot). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:26, 26 December 2018 (EST)
::::This is an interesting finding, thanks for telling us. As you pointed out that's likely due to internal renaming and due to them giving the ''Kinopio'' name much less weight than we do here so that individual characters can be named ''Kinopio'' without this having any particular implications beside indicating the species they belong to. Still, considering how the Blue Toad is consistently referred to as ''Kinopio'' in both official material and even files of the game and is thus known as ''Toad'' here in the West, I'm not sure if this internal renaming can lead to particular consequences on our side, or be just another case in which Nintendo is pointing out how we should probably have a different approach toward the characters named ''Kinopio'' - something I'm very interested in but I don't think we are ready for right now.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 12:17, 26 December 2018 (EST)
::The Mii dialogue is clearly false though, as we've had several named Toad characters in the RPGs, not to mention Toadette. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:03, 26 December 2018 (EST)
:::That's likely a side effect of the translation, as Nintendo itself in the Super Mario Pia confirmed that a few Toads, such as Captain Toad and Toadsworth, have a unique name (｢また、キノじいやキノピオ隊長など固有の名前をもつものもいる。｣). I'll try to get the original Japanese text so we can see the actual meaning (very likely that ''Kinopio'' isn't really a personal name, but rather a species name, just like how the Super Mario Pia indicates how some Toads have a unique name).--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 12:17, 26 December 2018 (EST)
::::Well, the actual Japanese text is:
<blockquote>
キノピオには、さまざまな<span class=explain title="いろ">色</span>のキノピオがいてその<span class=explain title="ぜんぶ">全部</span>を<span class=explain title="さ">指</span>して｢キノピオ｣って<span class=explain title="い">言</span>うんだ。

でもどのキノピオも、とっても<span class=explain title="まじめ">真面目</span>で<span class=explain title="れいぎただ">礼儀正</span>しいんだよ!
</blockquote>
::::I think the main misunderstanding is that the text talks about there being different Toads of various colors who are all known as ''Toad'' - not that all Toads have ''Toad'' as their name.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 12:43, 26 December 2018 (EST)
:::::I'm not sure that necessarily changes anything. Using this, we could say that Yellow Toad and Blue Toad are both simply named Toad, with the colors being mentioned to differentiate themselves from each other, making the SM3DW Toad very possibly Blue Toad. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:46, 26 December 2018 (EST)
::::::What changes is our approach toward characters named Toad/Kinopio. The material from Nintendo suggests that we should give less weight to that name as we do now, as characters can be named ''Toad'' with that name just telling us the species they belong to - actually, they are now telling us that sometimes even the color is omitted and, as such, what would normally be called ''Blue Toad'' or ''Yellow Toad'' can sometimes be named just ''Toad''! However, as of now, we assume that all characters named just ''Toad'' are the same character, and we add a new entry in the main page every time this happens. I think we'd need a proposal to change that and that would be a true can of worms, as you can easily guess.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:00, 26 December 2018 (EST)

Well, [https://www.kadokawa.co.jp/product/321808000468/ this rather recent book from Kadokawa and Gzbrain] effectively states that {{file link|MCDSZ Toad.png|the Toad in ''Super Mario 3D World'' is a ''blue'' Toad}}. Granted, it might just be that the author wants to point out the color of each character, as {{file link|MCDSZ SMW Yoshi.png|they also specified that Yoshi in ''Super Mario World'' is a ''green'' Yoshi}}, but this would effectively fit in what the Japanese Mii dialogue says about colored Toads being still named ''Toad'' at times, as well as what happened with Yellow Toad being often referred to as just ''Toad'' in the context of ''New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:30, April 1, 2020 (EDT)

== Nintendo Comics System ==

Is it just me, or are there ''way'' too many words dedicated to the Nintendo Comics System section? There's full-on in-depth plot synopses there, and they're written pretty terribly (presumably by somebody not fluent in English). Should we trim these down a bit? [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 03:11, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:Maybe, but it is about the only time he's had anything resembling character depth, so it'd make sense for it to be a larger section, just not ''that'' large. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:35, 10 February 2019 (EST)

== Luigi's Mansion 3 needs to be added to possible appearances section ==

A red toad with a blue vest that is presumably him has been shown to appear in the game why has someone not added that yet? ~~35.136.185.103~~
:We can make that determination when the game is out. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

== Mistake: Toad's first appearance is in Super Mario Bros (1985) not Super Mario Bros. 2 ==

Toad says "Thank you Mario, by the princess is in another castle.". [[User:Orhoshmand|Orhoshmand]] ([[User talk:Orhoshmand|talk]]) 15:28, April 13, 2020 (EDT)

That info is on the [[Toad (species)]] page.[[User:Duckfan77|Duckfan77]] ([[User talk:Duckfan77|talk]]) 15:35, April 13, 2020 (EDT)
:''Kinopio'' was indeed introduced in ''Super Mario Bros.'', but that was without any doubt a species. The first ''Kinopio'' character that according to Nintendo was also a recurring one (since he reappeared in ''Wario’s Woods'') is the one of ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', who was also mentioned in the Miiverse interview about ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker'' for this reason (they wanted to stress how Captain Toad is not the Toad of ''Super Mario Bros. 2''). Since that Kinopio of ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' was a Toad bearing the species’ name and standard appearance, this page ultimately ended up covering all the occurrences of Toad when treated as individual rather than species.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:24, April 13, 2020 (EDT)

== Origami King ==

Hi, was just going through this page and noticed that the Toads in the openings of SPM and Color Splash are classified as "the" Toad, but the one in Origami King's ending is not. Is there a particular reason for this? All seem to fulfill the same role of "Princess Peach's main companion", and still has the trademark red-spots-blue-vest design (though I do know several other Toads in the game also have this distinction). Nothing too big, just wasn't sure if this discussion has been had before. -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 20:45, January 18, 2021 (EST)

== [[Toad]] Suggestion ==

Hello, I suggest using the [[Mario Party 10]] artwork of [[Toad]] for his infobox. [[File:Toad - Mario Party 10.png|300px]]--[[User:ItzTej|ItzTej]] ([[User talk:ItzTej|talk]]) 22:15, February 13, 2021 (EST)
:We use the most recent, non-stylized version of character artwork for the infobox. Though following that, it would actually be [[:File:MKT Toad Sitting Artwork.png|this incredibly small image that would not look good at all]], so ''Super Mario Run''{{'}}s is the next best one. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 22:18, February 13, 2021 (EST)
I second using the ''Mario Party 10'' model. It is more recent than ''Super Mario Run'''s model as it's actually recycled artwork from ''Super Mario 3D World'' in 2013, using older rendering techniques. Toad also is in a neutral pose for the suggested artwork, and not running. --[[User:Memoryman3|&#32;memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 06:04, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
:There are lots of other characters whose infobox artwork is derived from old artwork as well, such as Daisy or even Mario. It doesn't matter if it's the "neutral pose" or not. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 06:11, April 20, 2021 (EDT)


== Are they the same? ==

[[File:Toad_icon.png|60px]] and [[File:Toadicon.png|60px]] are they the same? Can a toad be both blue and red? {{User:Bubbasour11/sig}}

Um. Hello?{{User:Bubbasour11/sig}}
:There was a discussion about this above. Basically, Nintendo revealed in a not-well-translated Mii dialogue of ''Mario & Sonic'' that they sometimes omit the color of the Toad, naming him just Toad. This happened recently also in ''New Super Mario Bros. Deluxe'', as well as in ''Mario Kart Tour'' where the names of the power-up variants of the various colored Toads omit the color of the Toad. We do have an official character picture book that refers to the Toad in ''Super Mario 3D World'' as Blue Toad. For the moment there haven't been changes though. I fear that this might open a can of worms, as effectively the Toad of ''Super Mario 3D World'' is likely fully blue because that was the color of Toad in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', from which the main characters of ''Super Mario 3D World'' and their abilities have been borrowed.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:41, June 25, 2021 (EDT)

== Super Mario 64 ==

Isn't it logical to assume that at least one of the [[Toad (species)|Toad]]s within Peach's Castle in SM64 is [[Toad|the character Toad]]? My best guess is the one in the main hall of the castle, but there's plenty of Toads in the castle. So if he is one of them, he could really be anywhere. In [[Super Mario 64 DS]], another reasonable guess would be the one in the rec room. But is he really squeezing in among his comrades? And if so, '''which one is he?''' [[User:Broque|Broque]] 20:40, August 2, 2021 (EDT)
:This ambiguity issue regarding appearances of the Toad "character" is the entire reason [[Toad#Possible_appearances|this section]] exists. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 20:49, August 2, 2021 (EDT)
::I have honestly always been a bit skeptical about keeping that section for even being speculative in the header. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 20:52, August 2, 2021 (EDT)
:::If he is in there, then it would be impossible to find him.{{User:Gandalf}} 10:42, March 12, 2023

== digit ==

NSMBU What is "two digits"? --[[Special:Contributions/58.176.43.120|58.176.43.120]] 06:11, April 30, 2022 (EDT)
:If you're referring to "Toad also appears when the player finishes a level with the last two numbers on the time limit matching and rewards the player with a power-up for their achievement.", it means that the last two digits on the [[Time Limit]] that are the same, like 099. It's a similar vein as in [https://www.mariowiki.com/New_Super_Mario_Bros.#Moves_and_items New Super Mario Bros.] where clearing a level where the time limit ends in X11, X22, X33, and so on has the retro level clear theme play and spawns a Toad House. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:43, April 30, 2022 (EDT)
::I should point out I rewrote the sentence after that comment was posted to be more clear. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:46, April 30, 2022 (EDT)

== Olympic games trivia ==

According to the in-game trivia from mario & sonic olympic games tokyo 2020, toad did debut in super mario bros., what's up with that?{{User|Linshixi}}
:It might refer to the Toad species, the character however was established in Super Mario Bros. 2. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:14, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
::It's probably because the distinction between the "main" Toad and the "other" Toads is really inconsistent between games and other pieces of media (including whether there even IS a "main" Toad), so it's probably lumping them for convenience (which is what Nintendo usually does). Note how some games treat Kamek as a SMW-debut (or at least use the Magikoopa SMW sprite to represent him) since that's a similar situation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:20, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

== Toad is also appears in Mario + Rabbids series, why that info is not here? ==

Toad is appears in Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle as supporting character and make possible cameo in Sparks of Hope. But, why any info about Toad in Mario + Rabbids not there?{{unsigned|TheAwesomeMario}}
:I added a section for Kingdom Battle, however I haven't for Sparks of Hope because that game doesn't feature the Toad character, not even as a "possible cameo". {{User:Swallow/sig}} 05:23, August 13, 2023 (EDT)

== Should we start splitting Toad's history? ==
I think we should start doing this because this page definitely needs to be divided because of it's size. Mario already has [[History of Mario|this taken care of.]][[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 20:54, November 1, 2023 (EDT)
:Yes, I think so. It's really long, about as long as Peach's is, and Princess Peach's history has already been moved. I really think we should. -- {{User:FanOfRosalina2007/sig}} 16:36, December 7, 2023 (EST)
::Several users who were splitting lots of history sections have been told to stop doing so, the reason being because we are trying to figure out a different guideline from the 100K byte one. For now, this should wait. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:54, December 7, 2023 (EST)
:::Oh, alright. I didn't know that. Thank you so much for telling me, because I was going to start on this today. Thanks! -- {{User:FanOfRosalina2007/sig}} 12:00, December 8, 2023 (EST)

== Strange inclusions ==
{{talk}}
I understand I may be poking a bees' nest here, but I find a lot of the games covered in this page to be very strange inclusions. From what I'm noticing, a Toad is covered in this page if, among other, more logical reasons, a Toad in the game is referred to as "Toad" without an indeterminate article. However, it's fairly common for the games to refer to Toads this way. Take Luigi's Mansion 3, for example, where all three Toads are referred to this way.
So, let's go through the games whose inclusions I find strange. I won't get into the whole "Possible Appearances" stuff, but
* Super Mario Bros. 3 - Because name. The section covers the Toad that wishes Mario good luck at the start of the story, the Toad working for the king of Grass Land, and the Toad(s) in every Toad's House.
* Super Mario 64 - Because name, due to the English manual saying that Peach and Toad are missing. However, this is a mistranslation: the Japanese version is explicitly plural (''Kinopio-tachi'', literally "Toads"). And also this is contradicted by another source.
* Luigi's Mansion - Because name. First, there is the 3DS version's manual, more specifically, from what I understand, the part that says you can save the game by talking to Toad. This is true for every Toad in the game, yet the section treats this as referring to only one. Also covers the phone call from a Toad because he introduces himself as "Toad".
* Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon - There are five Toads, all of different colors, and the first one happens to be red. That's it. Not only is this Toad working for E. Gadd's rather than Peach, he's not even called just "Toad". E. Gadd calls him "one of my Toad assistants", "my Toad assistant", "that Toad fellow", and "our Toad friend", and the game generically calls him "the Toad" once.
So, thoughts? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:30, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
:The line between Toad the character and Toad the copy-pastes is so blurred that I'm in favor of merging the articles. As you've shown, there are instances where a random member of this species is called "Toad". And while you didn't address it, I'd like to add that the "possible appearances" section is awfully speculative and is not a good look for an encyclopedia. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:51, March 29, 2024 (EDT)

:Yeah, I feel like the speculative appearance section should just be removed outright. Toads other than The Toad™ have been shown to don the red cap + blue vest motif so I feel like there's really no reason to keep it. Also, when The Toad™ is in a game, the game usually goes out of its way to make it obvious. - [[User:Robothing|Robothing]] ([[User talk:Robothing|talk]]) 02:14, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::They'll call ''any'' Toad, "Toad" whenever convenient (New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe). Even if there is a singular red-spotted playable Toad. See Mario Party 9 minigame [[Toad and Go Seek]] (the minigame itself repeatedly refers to this blue Toad as "Toad"; e.g. Watch Toad! Find Toad!, there's no qualifying articles like "Find the Toad", or "Find this Toad"). {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:20, September 14, 2024 (EDT)

== wait, what if? ==

What if this Toad is actually the first Toad you rescue in the original Super Mario Bros?--[[Special:Contributions/99.152.112.156|99.152.112.156]] 00:29, February 16, 2025 (EST)
:That's impossible. It was confirmed once that he was on vacation in Super Mario Bros. and when he came back, he found out 7 of his friends and Peach were gone (source: [http://www.pressthebuttons.com/2014/12/mario-kirby-and-samus-aran-shine-in-the-nintendo-character-manual.html].) [[User:Weegie baby|Weegie baby]] ([[User talk:Weegie baby|talk]]) 13:57, February 20, 2025 (EST)

== Split the Toad (Mario Party 4) from Toad ==
{{TPP}}
<gallery>
Booparty4.jpg| [[Boo (Mario Party 4)|Has its own article]]
Goombaparty.jpg| [[Goomba (Mario Party 4)|Has its own article]]
Koopa Troopa MP4 artwork.jpg| [[Koopa Troopa (Mario Party 4)|Has its own article]]
Shy Guy Mario Party 4 art.jpg| [[Shy Guy (Mario Party 4)|Has its own article]]
Toad4.jpg| [[History of Toad#Mario Party series| Merged with Toad the character's article?]]
</gallery>
Something that annoys me is this inconsistency, while Goomba, Koopa, Shy Guy and Boo host's from [[Mario Party 4]] get their own articles, for some reason the Toad host is just merged with Toad's (the character) page. I don't understand why, since all of them where just generic member's of their spiecies until when they founded [[Party Cube]], all of them have the same names as their spiecies but have unique design's, seperating them from their spiecies, all of them host their own boards, so why is this inconsistency here? Because Toad himself was a host in previous Mario Party games? We had a Koopa Troopa host in [[Mario Party 1]] and [[Mario Party Superstars|Superstars]] yet they are not merged with Koopa host from 4. In my opinion the way we should handle this is either A: Just give Toad host from Mario Party 4 his own article like the others, or B: Merge Goomba, Koopa, Shy Guy and Boo host article's with their spiecies, <s>I am fine with both outcomes</s> but since they are a team they should all get the same treatment.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Kirby the Formling}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Split to "Toad (Mario Party 4)"===
#{{user|Kirby the Formling}} - per all
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. The fact that the Toad is just mysteriously left out of this feels very, very strange to us. He has a unique outfit and everything like the others, so... ;P
#{{User|Pseudo}} Secondary choice; I'd rather this Toad get his own article rather than merging these articles altogether, but I suppose I see the distinction between this Toad and the standard Toad character as pretty immaterial. What matters, in my view, is that he is a singular character in this context as opposed to a generic member of his species, which also appears in the game.
#{{User|Fakename123}} Per Pseudo; second choice
<s>{{User|Tails777}} I'm open to this idea. As I mention in my comment, I only left Toad out because I was under the impression that the Toad here was the Toad himself. I guess for a time era where pretty much all normal Toads had red spots and blue vests, it was a pretty speculative call, so I'm willing to treat this Toad as separate from Toad himself.</s>

===Merge the other MP4 host's articles with their spiecies===
#{{User|Arend}} Not gonna lie, this seriously gives off similar "enemy (character)" vibes as [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Re-merge the Mario Party Advance "generic species representative character" articles back into their respective "species" articles|the myriad of ''Mario Party Advance'' "characters" before we had those merged]]. The only difference is that they're all wearing costumes now, [[:File:MP4 credits 2.png|which they sure as heck didn't wear back when they found the Party Cube]]. Had they kept their default appearances and ''no one'' would've considered these to be separate characters.
#{{user|DesaMatt}} - Per Arend.
#{{User|Hewer}} Better to avoid unnecessary character/species splits like this. The only thing these guys have going for them is their costumes, which may be cool but don't make them entirely different characters, it's just what the characters happen to be wearing in this game. Like, Mario isn't a different character in [[Mario Tennis Aces]] just because he wears a tennis outfit in that game. And Toad didn't become a new character when he put on a bowtie in [[Super Mario Party]]. <small>(Also this merge is the final step to completely invalidate my old arguments from two and a half years ago against merging the Mario Party Advance characters, since [[Talk:Koopa (Mario Party DS)#Merge to Koopa Troopa|Koopa (Mario Party DS)]] and [[Talk:Goomba (Super Paper Mario character)#Delete.|Goomba (Super Paper Mario character)]] both got merged already)</small>
#{{User|Tails777}} Switching sides here. The overall [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Create articles for the hosts of Mario Party 4|main reason]] I ever brought up the idea of splitting these hosts was because of the ''Mario Party Advance'' treatment. Since all those characters have been merged, these now just seem like a product of that time. So all things considered, I'm willing to agree to merging them.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option. While we don't see these existing being as bad as the old ''Party Advance'' articles, we'd prefer some parity over no parity.
#{{User|Shadow2}} I wasn't aware we did this. This seems incredibly silly. Per all.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: This reminds me of the failed Koopa Troopa split.

===Keep it as it is now===
#{{User|Pseudo}} I'm strongly inclined to have these characters keep their own articles separate from their species, because, while they may have originally appeared as generic members of their species in their backstory, they ''are'' clearly distinguished in-game from generic members of their species via their costumes—and they do appear alongside generic members of their species on their own boards. On [[Boo's Haunted Bash]], regular Boos are all over the place running every shop and event alongside the one robe and wizard hat-wearing Boo, the only one who is a distinct character, "Boo (Mario Party 4)". This is a lot different from the ''Mario Party Advance'' situation, in which, as far as I am aware, these characters don't appear as multiples, at least in the main mode, and have no costumes or anything of the sort to physically distinguish them from any other Boo. '''Side note:''' I do think that the current article titles are poorly chosen; see my comment below.
#{{User|Fakename123}} Per Pseudo (although I personally think that "Mario Party 4 character" would be a better identifier for all of them).

===Comments===
As a side note in case somebody asks what aboud the [[Koopa Kid]] that hosts [[Bowser's Gnarly Party]]: since that Koopa Kid does not have a unique outfit and is never referred to as a member of the Party Cube, I think the way he is handled now (being merged with his ?spiecies? article) is fine. [[User:Kirby the Formling|Kirby the Formling]] ([[User talk:Kirby the Formling|talk]]) 12:17, March 9, 2025 (EST)

I don't want to be the grammar plumber buuuuut the possessive form of "it" is "its". "It's" is a contraction, famously used in that one catchphrase:"It's-a me!" {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:35, March 9, 2025 (EDT)

Relevant proposal here: https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/50#Create_articles_for_the_Mario_Party_4_hosts:_Revisited {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:37, March 9, 2025 (EDT)

Regarding merging them with their species, generic versions of all five species are present as NPCs in the game in addition to the costume buddies here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:13, March 9, 2025 (EDT)

As the one who initiated the idea of splitting the ''Mario Party 4'' hosts, I've always been under the impression that the Toad host here is the same as the usual Toad. However, that being said, this is also a game that does not distinguish Toad himself from other Toads, something modern games handle better (Toad has a blue vest with red spots while other typical Toads have cap spots matching their vests, including Red Toads). That is mostly the reason I left him out of the discussion. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

{{@| Hewer}} - I don't think those argument's really works, since unlike Tennis Mario or bowtie Toad they are not pre-established characters, and instead members of their spiecies, so them being seperate makes more sense than "Bowtie Toad" and unlike the Koopa DS and MPA characters they are not the only "spiecies representive" in Mario Party 4, like in [[Goomba's Greedy Gala]] [[Goomba (Mario Party 4)|host Goomba]] is not the only Goomba on that board, the fact that they have their unique outfits helps them stand out. [[User:Kirby the Formling|Kirby the Formling]] ([[User talk:Kirby the Formling|talk]]) 16:23, March 9, 2025 (EST)
:Mario games vary when it comes to how much the distinction exists between "unique character" and "generic species". The Mario Party series in particular often likes to treat generic species members as their own characters (e.g. as playable characters). And I feel pretty confident that we'd never have split these guys if they didn't have their costumes, even if everything else about them was the same. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:35, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
::I don't understand what you are talking aboud, yes the only reason why their articles exist in the first place is because of their designs, same reason why somebody like [[Gary (Super Paper Mario)|Gary]] has a page because he randomly got a name, but that's also the only reason why his page was not deleted. I think a unique design, that exist for the purpose of differentiation them from the other members of their spiecies (that appear in this game, so don't pull the "playable characters" card of them only being diffrent because there playable). If [[Hudson Soft]] did not care aboud them and did not want the players to think of them more than just "Goomba, Koopa, Shy Guy, Boo and a Toad", then why did they added a "lore" to them in the credits? With them discovering the [[Party Cube]]? Their pages are arguebly more justified than Gary the Goomba's page. [[User:Kirby the Formling|Kirby the Formling]] ([[User talk:Kirby the Formling|talk]]) 17:55, March 9, 2025 (EST)
:::The "unique design" is just outfits that they wear (and didn't even have originally, as seen in the credits), hence the comparisons I made in my vote. If Mario putting on a different outfit doesn't make him a different character, why shouldn't Toad or Boo be treated the same way? A unique name I feel is at least a bit more of a reason to give a character its own article since it shows a different identity and is generally a better indicator that they're supposed to be seen as distinct (see [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs]], though I will admit that Gary might be pushing that a bit since the only reason he has a name was so that his generic Goomba buddy had something to yell for a single line). And who ever said that "Hudson Soft did not care about them"? The way I see it, these are appearances of the frequently recurring characters Koopa Troopa, Goomba, Boo, Shy Guy, and Toad, in much the same way as Mario Party Advance, and they just happen to be wearing outfits in this game. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:49, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
::::Weird how we still have that Gary article. We once has an article on Kuribo the Sockop, and that has been assimilated into [[Sockop]], and the three Johnsons from the Paper Mario titles have been merged into a general [[Johnson]] article. {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:05, March 9, 2025 (EDT)

i don't get most of the arguments up there. "if this character looked different we would treat it differently" ...yeah? that's the purpose of character design, to differentiate a character. i'd say distinct role + distinct appearance is enough to consider these separate characters, even if they have uncreative names. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 20:20, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
:My point is that their "different designs" are just outfits (that they are shown to not always have), and it's not too uncommon for a character to wear an outfit specific to a particular game while still being the same character. The only difference between Toad in Mario Party 4 and Toad in Super Mario Party is that the former adds a bit more clothing than just a bowtie. It's less that I think they're not "separate characters" and more that I don't think the character Boo wearing a suit is a different concept from the character Boo not wearing a suit (and who there happens to often be multiple of). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 21:14, March 9, 2025 (EDT)

I might be missing something here but aren't these like. Not comparable? "These hosts are covered on separate pages from their species" and... so is Toad. He's covered on the page about the distinct Toad character. Not [[Toad (species)]]. The other hosts don't have existing main characters ''to be'', so it seems like this isn't really an inconsistency.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 21:49, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
:I mean, I'd argue that each of the other species can also be a character if the devs want (like in Mario Party Advance or any playable appearance - the playable Boo in Mario Tennis Aces can even wear a visor, if unique outfits are such a major concern), and that their appearances in Mario Party 4 are just an example of this, hence why I think the merge is a good idea. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:07, March 9, 2025 (EDT)

I am strongly in support of these characters keeping their own articles, but per [[SMW:Naming]], the current article titles are pretty poorly-chosen in my view, and I think that the titles might add to the confusion surrounding this proposal. We should be distinguishing these characters via "type of thing", not the game they're from, both because "type of thing" comes first and also because "Boo (Mario Party 4)" isn't the only Boo in ''Mario Party 4''—regular Boos appear alongside this distinct character in the game. I think that these articles would be much better served by changing their names to {{fake link|Boo (character)}}, {{fake link|Goomba (character)}}, {{fake link|Shy Guy (character)}}, {{fake link|Koopa (character)}}, and, if option 1 of this proposal passes, {{fake link|Toad (Mario Party 4 character)}}. '''Another side note''': [[Koopa Troopa (Mario Party 4)]] is also a poor title regardless of this because in ''Mario Party 4'', the Koopa character is just called Koopa, without the Troopa (so are normal Koopa Troopas, but that's not relevant to this proposal). {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 23:09, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
:If they stayed split, I'd definitely be in favour of "(''Mario Party 4'' character)" for all of them. It's far from the only time they've been portrayed as distinct characters. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:12, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
::Fair enough, this makes sense to me (as does {{@|Fakename123}}'s similar statement in their vote). {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 08:24, March 10, 2025 (EDT)

{{@|Pseudo}} Did you select the wrong vote? Your wording suggests that you think the characters all deserve their own pages because they have distinct costumes in contrast to the other normal characters who run the shops and events and that means they deserve their own page...but Toad doesn't? Based on your wording, it seems like you wanted to vote for option 1, not option 3. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 16:30, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
:She ''literally'' voted for both options; Option 3 only happens to be her ''primary'' option, but not her ''only'' one like you're insinuating. She even stated at option 1 that she'd rather have Toad be split than all be merged altogether. Instead of asking "hey, shouldn't you be voting for option 1 instead" (given that ''she already does that''), I think it'd be more intuitive to ask ''why she prefers Toad not to be split'', since that's the one detail missing here. {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:01, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
::This is accurate; the reason I prefer Toad not to be split, as I said in my vote for option 1, is because I see the difference between ''Mario Party 4''{{'}}s Toad and the standard Toad character from ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' and so forth as pretty immaterial. His identity as a singular red-capped Toad named Toad seen alongside other, more generic Toads prevails here in my view. I was unsure which option to consider my primary one though, as I do see the utility of giving this Toad his own article alongside the other four hosts. It's nice for consistency. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 19:51, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
:I am ''literally'' blind, I apologize. I didn't notice the vote in option 1 at all. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 22:33, March 10, 2025 (EDT)