Editing Talk:Thorny flower

Official name?--{{User:Knife/sig}} 16:17, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:Actually, I don't know if that's the official name.  That's just the name that appeared on the enemies list on the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' page.  I should probably add that conjecture template. - [[User:Smashgoom202|Smashgoom202]] 14:28, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
::Same with the[[fake Block]]

== Decide on a name for this article ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|blue|cancelled by administrator}}<small>This doesn't need to be a proposal. As mentioned in the comments, "thorny flower" is the in-game name, which [[MarioWiki:Naming|takes priority over the guides]].</small>

Seeing the {{tem|better source}} tag on this page, I think we should decide on the name of this page. I have no preference either way, but I think we should probably look into this.

*The in-game description for the ''[[Mario Party: Island Tour]]'' calls these things "thorny flowers". The selling points are that the name is in-game and is the most recent, but the drawback is that it's more of a descriptor term than an actual name, though at least it's not a lengthy descriptor unlike, say, "flowers with sharp spikes".
*Page 187 of the ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' Prima guide calls them "thistles". While it's less of a lengthy descriptor, it has the disadvantage of being a name from a guide, and also is less recent.

I'm fine with either decision that's made.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Toadette the Achiever}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' March 13, 2019, 23:59 GMT

===Rename to "Thistle"===

===Stick with "Thorny flower"===
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} If it's not capitalized, we should search for a name in the Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 Prima guides. I wonder what are both Japanese names for both normal and big.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I think "thorny flower" describes their appearance in more recent games better than "thistle."
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Current name is perfectly fine. Inline tag isn't necessary, we require it when the source is like the wildly inaccurate Prima guides or Smash Bros. trophy descriptions.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per Bazooka Mario.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Bazooka Mario.
#{{User|Bye Guy}} I removed the better source needed tag because the source is already convenient enough

===Comments===
Given that ''Mario Party: Island Tour'' is a more recent source, Prima guides are unreliable, and that ingame names almost always take precedence, it doesn't matter what the Prima guides say what these obstacles are, it'll still keep the "thorny flower" name. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:35, 27 February 2019 (EST)

Since the Prima guide can still be used as a source, I added the "thristle" name in the Mario 3D Land section, but it needs a page number. {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 20:00, 27 February 2019 (EST)
:Toadette the Achiever mentioned the page number in the proposal, so I added the page number. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 20:08, 27 February 2019 (EST)
::I didn't see, sorry. {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 20:13, 27 February 2019 (EST)

== Um... ==
[[MarioWiki:Naming]] says, ''"Please note that '''regardless of the source''', the '''official North American name''' takes priority, followed by the '''first international English name''' if no North American name is available, and finally the '''first international non-English name''' if no English name is known. For example, if a subject is given a name in-game in the Japanese version only, and not in the English localization of the game, but an English strategy guide names it, that English name is used, rather than the Japanese."'' So even though thorny flower is an in-game name, thistle should be the name. This is because thorny flower is PAL exclusive and Prima is North American. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 22:21, 27 February 2019 (EST)
:Yes, but in the order of naming list, in game name overrules the guide name. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 22:25, 27 February 2019 (EST)
::''"'''Regardless of the source'''"''. The way I am interrupting it, the guide should take priority over in-game name in this case since it is ''"the '''official North American name'''"''. Another proof that helps me believe this is the what should be done is that this comes immediately after the list of acceptable names and it says ''"Please note"'' at the beginning. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 22:47, 27 February 2019 (EST)
:You're correct, I didn't notice it's from the PAL version, my mistake. This seems to be a rare case, however, being a subject given a name in the PAL version of the game and not in the NTSC version, but named in a North American guide. I've brought this up in admin discussion, as I feel having a perfectly valid ''in-game'' English name disregarded in favour of a name from a guide (especially if it's less accurate and specific) doesn't seem right. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 08:33, 28 February 2019 (EST)
::We should find the name in the Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 if it's the case, but i think it is good as-is. I kinda feel that Fire Cannon <s>should have the internal filename source removed and add an another language template</s> should have the same treatment, given that its internal filename is a romanization of its Japanese name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:40, 28 February 2019 (EST)
:::We're not supporting ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' mistaking our generic name for the proper one, and the internal template idea was handled poorly. At any rate, we've used proposals to override policy before, and "thistle" is honestly a better match for [[Stretch Plant|bulb]]. Though "Needle Plant" may even be a third possible option, as the internal name is not the Japanese ones and it seems to be the most proper designation, since thistle and thorny flower are both generic descriptors. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:34, 28 February 2019 (EST)
::::Except generic descriptors as article names are allowed as long as they aren't overly long (i.e., not "flowers with sharp thorns"). Also, I don't think the internal filename is specific enough either. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 09:41, 28 February 2019 (EST)
:::::"<tt>NeedlePlant</tt>" is consistent between the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games and ''Super Mario 3D Land'', so that has it going for it. We tend to only use a generic, lowercase name as an article title if it at least as a consistent quality. There's also the fact that each guide/game uses different descriptors (''Super Mario Galaxy'' uses "prickly plants" and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' uses "spikes"), so using one of those names in a broad sense will not necessarily be applicable to every appearance. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:48, 28 February 2019 (EST)
::::::It is fine as-is. <s>Honestly, i feel that the Beamer enemies should have the same treatment as Karikari and Kamikami, given that their internal filename is a romanization of their Japanese names like the Fire Cannon</s>. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:55, 28 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::I really don't think it is since the descriptors are completely inconsistent. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:04, 28 February 2019 (EST)
::::::There were some agreements on the PAL name; however, if Needle Plant is indeed the name used in ''SMG'', ''SMG2'' and ''SM3DL'', I guess we can ignore everything I said and go with that name. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 19:37, 28 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::I supported using the PAL name, but if "Needle Plant" is used consistently between the games they appear in, I would be fine with using that name. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 19:51, 28 February 2019 (EST)
We shouldn't be splitting hairs over that the name was taken from PAL, IMO. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:54, 28 February 2019 (EST)

Personally, I think it should stay at this title. An in-game name in a PAL game is better than an internal filename. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:56, 28 February 2019 (EST)
:Thorny flower is perfectly fine, as I said earlier in the proposal. It's accurate and if anything, it'll help people who played the PAL games, and thus are those who actually are exposed to the in-game name, find the name. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:02, 28 February 2019 (EST)

==Decide on a name for this article redux==
{{TPP}}

I have the go-ahead to reopen the above proposal. When it closed, only two names were known, but I've dug around and found many more. The name of this object apparently changes on the writer's whim, and hardly ever lasts for more than one game. The relevant ones are represented in this proposal. I'll go over each one.

*"Needle Plant" comes from the internal filename for the object. It is the closest one to a proper name and its usage spans at least three games (''Super Mario Galaxy'', ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'', and ''Super Mario 3D Land''), making it even more consistent than the Japanese names. I haven't confirmed the ''Mario Party'' appearances, but I presume it's the same there.
*"Prickly plant" comes from the Prima guide for ''Super Mario Galaxy''. While it is an older name, it shows up in the most pages (albeit with one instance where it's "prickly flower" instead), making it the most common name for ''Super Mario Galaxy''.
*"Spike" comes from the Prima guide for ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''. It is mainly included for the sake of completeness.
*"Thistle" comes from the Prima guide for ''Super Mario 3D Land''. Also included for completeness.
*"Thorny flower" comes from the PAL version of ''Mario Party: Island Tour''. It is in-game, but like a lot of the guide names, is a lowercase generic descriptor.

Note that the result should have no bearing on the giant prickly plant article.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' March 20, 2019, 23:59 GMT

===Rename to "Needle Plant"===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My preferred choice, as it is the longest lasting and thus has the most universal application.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per LTL.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Given this seems to be the most common, though, I support this option, too.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Second choice, per all.
#{{User|GrainedCargo192}} "Thorny flower" is just too generic.

===Rename to "Prickly plant"===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My secondary choice, as it matches giant prickly plant (though it doesn't necessarily have to; see Maw-Ray and Mega Unagi)

===Rename to "Spike (plant)"===

===Rename to "Thistle"===

===Stick with "Thorny flower"===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Digging into the files should only be used as a last resort. I don't see why we should use it over a descriptive in-game name, PAL or not.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} This is the most official name, and I feel that it describes these plants the best.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} This is perfectly fine name and comes from the best source we have.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all and some times earlier.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per my first comment in the above section.
#{{user|RickTommy}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} The in-game name always should come first. If a random person comes to the wiki and looks for this plant, what would they look for? Only people that search internal files or actively edit on the Mario Wiki would know about the "Needle Plant" name, and the names from PRIMA are more obscure than an in-game name especially with strategy guide sales declining, so the random person would most likely search for and know the only in-game name for the plant. Sure while Thorny flower is slightly generic, all of the names are and this name is the only one that is officially said in-game. Per all.

===Comments===
I'm totally split here. As much as I like "thorny flower", I don't mind going with "thistle" or "prickly plant", either. The only name I really don't want us to use is the "Spike (plant)" name, as it just isn't descriptive enough. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 21:57, 6 March 2019 (EST)
:My opinion is that none of these names are really all that spectacular as the article title. It would be like, hypothetically, Goomba happened to only be referred to by a generic descriptor that kept changing every appearance (mushroom enemy, brown mushroom, evil mushroom, bad shroom, etc.), and the game developers actually had a consistent name for it but it was something along similar lines (Walking Mushroom). It's all what we have to work with, though. I do disagree with thorny flower over the fact of it being an in-game reference - I get being most recent, but it's still obviously along the lines of all the guide names and is very likely subject to change the next time it appears. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:45, 7 March 2019 (EST)
::If an in-game description or manual changes it, we change it. It's no big deal. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 13:57, 7 March 2019 (EST)
::I don't think "it will probably change again" is a very good argument considering, well, it hasn't. In the 12 years these plants have been present in the Mario series, they've only had one in-game name, and that's thorny flower. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:09, 7 March 2019 (EST)
:::The in-game name is just a generic lowercase descriptor like the guide names. Considering Nintendo of Europe doesn't always see eye-to-eye with Nintendo of America, it's definitely a strong possibility that the name can change a fifth time, at which point we should consider doing the proposal again. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:39, 7 March 2019 (EST)
::::"Needle Plant" is merely a placeholder not meant to be an actual name. The crew that made the name DOES matter. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:24, 8 March 2019 (EST)
:::::If that were true, it wouldn't exist past ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:59, 8 March 2019 (EST)
Doomhiker - It's obviously still going to be a redirect and mentioned in the article, so that scenario about someone searching for it and just not finding it is completely moot. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:15, 8 March 2019 (EST)
@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 == Decide on a name for this article ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|blue|cancelled by administrator}}<small>This doesn't need to be a proposal. As mentioned in the comments, "thorny flower" is the in-game name, which [[MarioWiki:Naming|takes priority over the guides]].</small>
+{{ProposalOutcome|blue|cancelled by administrator}}<small>This doesn't need to be a proposal. As mentioned in the comments, "thorny flower" is the in-game name, which [[MarioWiki:Naming|takes priority over the guides]].</small>
 Seeing the {{tem|better source}} tag on this page, I think we should decide on the name of this page. I have no preference either way, but I think we should probably look into this.
@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 ==Decide on a name for this article redux==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|red|don't rename 6-1-0-0-10}}
 I have the go-ahead to reopen the above proposal. When it closed, only two names were known, but I've dug around and found many more. The name of this object apparently changes on the writer's whim, and hardly ever lasts for more than one game. The relevant ones are represented in this proposal. I'll go over each one.
@@ Line 74: / Line 74: @@
 #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Second choice, per all.
 #{{User|GrainedCargo192}} "Thorny flower" is just too generic.
-#{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per all.
 ===Rename to "Prickly plant"===
@@ Line 93: / Line 92: @@
 #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
 #{{User|Doomhiker}} The in-game name always should come first. If a random person comes to the wiki and looks for this plant, what would they look for? Only people that search internal files or actively edit on the Mario Wiki would know about the "Needle Plant" name, and the names from PRIMA are more obscure than an in-game name especially with strategy guide sales declining, so the random person would most likely search for and know the only in-game name for the plant. Sure while Thorny flower is slightly generic, all of the names are and this name is the only one that is officially said in-game. Per all.
-#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 103: / Line 101: @@
 ::::"Needle Plant" is merely a placeholder not meant to be an actual name. The crew that made the name DOES matter. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:24, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 :::::If that were true, it wouldn't exist past ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:59, 8 March 2019 (EST)
-Doomhiker - It's obviously still going to be a redirect and a mention in the article, so that scenario about someone searching for it and apparently just not finding it is moot. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:15, 8 March 2019 (EST)
+Doomhiker - It's obviously still going to be a redirect and mentioned in the article, so that scenario about someone searching for it and just not finding it is completely moot. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:15, 8 March 2019 (EST)
-:@LinkTheLefty it is more that if Thorny flower is a redirect then it is '''harder''' for the random person to find the page as redirects only show up in the search bar when you type them in word-for-word, so from nothing showing up after they type in half of the redirect's name they may assume that a page for it does not exist and give up. Also, thorny flower is its most recent name, and it may of been renamed in that game from Needle Plant. Honestly, I think that the internal file name for the plant in MP SR should be found first so we can know if Needle Plant is still used and Thorny flower was a mistake on a translator's part, because if that was the case then I might support renaming to Needle Plant. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 08:23, 8 March 2019 (EST)
-::I managed to check out ''Island Tour'' before this proposal ends. Unfortunately, the filenames are unhelpful, which is likely the case for ''Star Rush'' as well. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:21, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
-:::What do the filenames say? {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 17:23, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
-::::It's just some basic directories that lead to shorthand filenames. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:33, March 20, 2019 (EDT)