Editing Talk:Thorny

==Relations==
{{talk}}
This is listed as a [[Spiny]], but looking at its graphics, [https://www.spriters-resource.com/virtual_boy/marioclash/sheet/8398/ it's a recolored Spike Top with two extra spikes]. I think it might need to be reclassified as a Buzzy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:24, 18 March 2018 (EDT)
:The problem, though, is that its official artwork has it resemble a Spiny, so maybe it should be classified as both? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 09:57, 18 March 2018 (EDT)
::But if it's basically a recolored Spike Top just with two more spikes on its shell, why not classify it as a Spike Top derivative? Seems the safest option to me. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:24, 20 March 2018 (EDT)
:::It's worth noting that Thorny's sprites lack the rim around the spikes, like Spike Top has, while the standalone shell sprites are also both edited from the Troopas (itself made to resemble a Shellcreeper), so....it's a bit complicated through resource reusage. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:28, 15 April 2018 (EDT)
::::There's also the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7eXH5OP0OY&t=1h56m33s final cutscene] that occurs if you reach 999999 points, and in it, all of the basic enemies appear individually with white flags - except for Spike and Thorny, who appear together. It looks like Spike appears by itself, but then Thorny charges into it as if thinking "hey, I was the stronger version of this thing" (or at least, that's the impression I get). Either way, as far as the game is concerned, Thorny acts just like Spike except it gets stunned instead of getting defeated in one hit, so it does make more sense gameplay-wise as a derivative of Spike Top. <s>As for its head resembling Spiny's in artwork, note that earlier appearances had less consistent designs than now.</s> EDIT: Well, the names seem based on it (Spi'''ny''', Thor<b>ny</b>; ''Toge'''zō''''', ''Tsuno'''zō'''''), so Thorny probably is derived from Spiny. Most likely they had the Spiny from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' in mind when they wanted a tougher Spike Top, but realized that Spiny is usually weaker so it became something else. Still, I wouldn't mind if we considered it a hybrid. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:20, March 10, 2020 (EDT)

== Reconsider Spike Top relationship ==

{{talk}}
I'm looking at the above discussion, and the arguments seem very flimsy to me. "The sprites are re-used" is only half-true; while the head and legs shape seems to be borrowed from Spike Tops (though this is likely because the species [[Talk:Spike_Top#Consider_Spike_Top_derived_from_both_Buzzy_Beetles_and_Spinies|look similar in general]]), the shell sprites are very clearly different, with different lighting and, as Doc pointed out, Thorny's shell lacks the rim of Spike Top's, and both shells seem to be based on the shell of the Koopa Troopa. The end-credits scene is a very bizarre justification too (maybe the Spike Top gets bumped off because he's the weakest enemy in general, not necessarily because it and Thorny come in a pair).

I'd argue we have more convincing evidence against it being a Spike Top: the official artwork [[:File:Spike_Artwork_-_Mario_Clash.png|for Spike Tops]] and [[:File:Thorny_Artwork_-_Mario_Clash.png|for Thornys]] are very clearly not the same design, and the Japanese name is very clearly based on that of a Spiny (no [[Spike Top#Names in other languages|-''metto'']] in sight). [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 16:58, May 22, 2024 (EDT)