Editing Talk:Super Mario Land (series)

Is ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' a game from the Super Mario Land series? I want to write about it here, but I'm not very sure. --[[File:Super-Radio.gif|35 px]][[User:Super Radio|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF0000">Super</span>]] [[User talk:Super Radio |<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF0000">Radio</span>]]
:No. It is not considered to be a ''Super Mario Land'' series game. {{User:Bop1996/sig}}

== The Super Mario Land games are confirmed canon by Nintendo ==

Nintendo on their Japanese 30th anniversary website has posted "the history of the super mario series." All the games considered canon are still on the list, however the Super Mario Land games (specifically the first mario land and six golden coins)are added. Since this is indeed an official source by Nintendo, we have no choice but to delete the "Super Mario Land series" article to fit this official picture by Nintendo. If there is any reason why we should deny this official source please speak up. Here is the official source.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/mario30th/index.html#/history/

== Merge to ''Super Mario'' (series) ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-8|Do not merge}}

For the [[Super Mario Bros. 30th Anniversary|''Super Mario Bros.'' 30th Anniversary]], Nintendo retconned from what they didn't do for the 25th Anniversary: include ''[[Super Mario Land]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]'' in the line-up of the main [[Super Mario (series)|''Super Mario'']] platforming games. This wiki hasn't do anything at this respect, except for pointing this curiousity in the pages. With this change of mind from Nintendo, we no longer need this article on its own and should be merged with the ''Super Mario'' series one, no matter if they weren't made by Miyamoto or his EAD team, what it should matter is that they were made by Nintendo and they have been offically included to a greater, and more important, series. But what about ''[[Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3]]''? well, up to this point people should know that game belongs more to the [[Wario Land (series)|''Wario Land'']] series, 'nuff said, it's the inaugural game for that series. This is similar to the case for ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'', who took the name of another game in order to appeal people to get the game. Nintendo did that because they were experimenting for the then-new series, but a name doesn't necesarily make a game part of a series, that's why we never included ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' to this page. We should be aware that ''Yoshi's Island'' was called a main Mario game by Miyamoto, but has been excluded from the line-up for the 25th and 30th Anniversaries of ''Super Mario Bros.'' so ''Wario Land'' is no different for this. ''Wario Land'' will be fine on its own series.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Byllant}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 17, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

===Support===
#{{User|Byllant}} - If people is not convinced, I would suggest reading my comment below.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per Byllant.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per what I said [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Change_the_main_series_to_include_Super_Mario_Land_1_and_2|in this proposal]]. While I think the ''SM'' series page should include the first two ''SML'' games (and ''Yoshi's Island'') somehow, like how it has [[Super Mario (series)#Ports, remakes, and downloadable content|all the random ''SMB'' remakes and whatnot]] listed separately from the main games, it should '''NOT''' be ''instead'' of having a separate ''SML'' series page. It ''isn't'' just some redundant/nested subseries (as "{{fake link|''NSMB'' (series)}}" would be): it's straddling both the ''SM'' and ''Wario Land'' series, and it is ''not'' our place to arbitrarily cut perfectly good series in half. ''WL:SML3'' (and ''VB Mario Land'') would indeed be out of place in the ''SM'' series page, but I think it's important that there ''is'' a series page that groups all the ''Land'' games together (like how we have a [[Super Mario Advance (series)]] page to group ''Yoshi's Island'' with the three main ''SM'' remakes). Furthermore, it's not ''just'' the series pages at stake: History sections, templates and categories are all affected by how we organize these games (we want to be consistent, after all), and I feel very strongly that it makes sense to keep the ''SML'' games separate in these capacities, given how different the games are to the usual ''SM'' games (''SM3DL'' is no ''SML''), the awkwardness of how the three finished games bridge two series, and their historic separation - the 30th anniversary stuff may include them now, but the 25th's exclusion of them should not be ignored, nor should all the years of separation preceding it. Also keep in mind that the 30th stuff leaves out major remakes like ''[[Super Mario All-Stars|SMAS]]'' and the ''SMA'' series, the US version leaves out ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels|Lost Levels]]'', and neither it nor the 25th stuff included the aforementioned random ''SMB'' remakes we still gotta keep in our article: Nintendo's free to pick and choose what to celebrate in their highlight reel, but we're stuck reporting on everything, and keeping the ''SML'' series intact is the best way to organize that info.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} In general, per Walkazo. In the long, pretty much what I said [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Change_the_main_series_to_include_Super_Mario_Land_1_and_2|last time.]] There are some interesting talking points to be had and both sides are going to make the same valid arguments, but there just isn't enough compelling reasons to A. Shake up our entire core structure (with this proposal acting as the first quake), B. Disrupt the main point of MarioWiki, which is to document all things Mario, with an emphasis on the games and C. Make broad, unsupported judgement about what is or is not valid (keeping in mind that our main designation is "educational archive", thus we document, not judge). Perhaps we could display the perceived discrepancy differently or otherwise work it into relevant article bodies better, but I fully disagree with burning the forest for the trees.
#{{User|Infinite8}} Per Walkazo. Putting the ''SML'' games in the Mario 30th anniversary history doesn't consider as part of the ''Super Mario'' series. Nintendo just put the ''SML'' games as part of the Mario platforming series, although didn't include the ''Wario Land'' games and the ''Yoshi's Island'' games.
#{{User|Roy Koopa}} Per Walkazo's wall of text
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per all; I don't see the benefit that anyone will receive if we implement this, especially when considering the amount of work that will be necessary. This is not laziness, but a realistic look at how this will affect the workload that we already have, including what we have outside of the wiki. We're not going to be subservient if nobody actually benefits.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I'd oppose for several reasons, fairly similar to [http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Change_the_main_series_to_include_Super_Mario_Land_1_and_2 this proposal], which I'm aware that has been brought up several times: little payoff from merging this disjoint series just because some anniversary media group it alongside with the mainstream Mario games. Also Walkazo rightfully points out, the media has only a limited amount of time and space to devote to covering the Mario series, so I do agree the argument that including the ''Super Mario Land'' games in the medium is a choice, not a requirement, unlike our coverage in this Wiki. This proposal is even less ideal than the one brought up, despite the former being quite contentious, because this one advocates a complete merger of a good page (for pathetic standards of ''series'' pages, more on that) while the other is expansion on existing pages. I do not like resorting to organizational slippery slope cases, but there is really no overwhelming compelling source of evidence; the situation is a gray area especially with Nintendo's approach to this whole mess. Finally, '''the way the series pages are handled in this wiki [http://www.marioboards.com/index.php?topic=32903.0 leaves a lot to be desired]''', so if you really care about this, then I suggest starting with the skeletal structure of these pages before making proposals like these. This has been stated before in the [http://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:Super_Mario_%28series%29#Create_a_New_Super_Mario_Bros._.28series.29_page New Super Mario Bros. series proposal] (linked in this proposal description), and I must state it again since it's a continually pressing issue.
#{{User|Corrin}} Super Mario Land is it's own series, and is not part of the main series. As such its page should continue to be separate from the main series.
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per Walkazo.

===Comments===
I really wish people who would oppose this will not shield up with the excuse these games weren't made by the former Nintendo EAD or Shigeru Miyamoto, I mean, we can compare this to ''The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap'', which was developed by Capcom and Vanpool and not Nintendo EAD, with Keiji Inafune directing the game and not Eiji Aonuma, yet is still a canon ''Zelda'' game. Also, we should be aware that this retcon makes this page as if we have a page for the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games, which by the way, [[Talk:Super Mario (series)#Create a New Super Mario Bros. (series) page|failed to be made as an actual page]], so people who opposed that proposal should consider the same arguments they gave for that proposal as well.

--<big>[[User:Byllant|<span style="font-family:Copperplate Bold;color:#B40404">'''BYLLANT'''</span>]] [[File:Ak-Un.png|30px|link=User talk:Byllant]]</big> 04:11, 3 October 2015 (EDT)
:I don't know why most of the users in this wiki like to live from the past, what happened for the 25th Anniversary is now history, that's why Nintendo updated the line-up, it's as if you don't know what the word "retcon" means. While I agree it is right to document everything from this games for the wiki's sake, it doesn't compensate to the current standards of the series. This is the "Rocky Wrench is not Monty Mole because an old 27-year old manual says otherwise" case again. Let me rectify some stuff to the opposers:

:@Walkazo: You are saying it is not arbitrarily cut perfectly good series in half because there are history sections, templates and categories that would be affected, that clearly implies laziness from part of editors to organize this stuff, because it is possible to do it, it just would require a tiresome editing session. The SMA series have a page because they are a series of enhanced remakes, they are not ports, they have been reworked to incorporate new content, a perfect reason for them to have a well-deserving page. You say these games are different, I guess you mean the shooting sections from ''SML'' because I don't find something different about ''SML2'' (it's like a ''SMW'' for GB), I don't think that's an effective argument as ''SMB2'' is also way to different to the rest of the ''Mario'' games, and if we look at SMS, we have Mario with a water pump gimmick. As far as I can tell, the 25th Aniversary didn't keep track on the SMA series (so there's no point on bringing them on) and the reason ''SMAS'' was included in the North American and European version (but not in the original Japanese version) of the Super Mario History manual was to document the ''SMB:TLL'' memo. So, in a sense, that game wasn't left out at all. I don't know why you bring the ports or remakes to the discussion, of course they wouldn't be taken on count. It's curious that ''Super Mario Maker'' was there too. We shouldn't ignore the 25th Anniversary but the 30th Anniversay should take the priority over it, anyway, even if the merge doesn't happen, and in the future, what will be dictaminated for the 35th Anniversary should be listened.

:@Ghost Jam: "Burning the forest for the trees"? of course not, we would be moving this forest to a greater forest, for the sake of its "survival", there's no need to "burn" anything, that would be waste. We won't be judging a series when it has been integrated to another series, after all, we never judged them, Nintendo did. I had this similar dicussion on Wikipedia about this, where ''WL'' and ''YI'' are on the ''SM'' series article, despite my protests they officially aren't (at that time Miyamoto remained silent about ''YI''), once again an official source would be ignored.

:@Infinite8: If being incorporated on a conmemorative celebration about a long-running series of platform games doesn't make you part of that series, then, I don't know what is it. You're kinda right, I'm fearful someday Nintendo will recall those awful CDi game on an anniversary conmemoration. That makes me shiver.

:I got to tell that if we don't merge, as I can see it's very likely, still take on count what this 30th anniversary has lead to, the SML games deserve more recognition for being part [finally] of the main games, that is a great achievement.

:--<big>[[User:Byllant|<span style="font-family:Copperplate Bold;color:#B40404">'''BYLLANT'''</span>]] [[File:Ak-Un.png|30px|link=User talk:Byllant]]</big> 03:54, 4 October 2015 (EDT)

::You may gripe that other users like living in the past, but I personally find it much more frustrating to have to deal with merge-happy users periodically seeking to destroy perfectly good articles and pretend like the past never happened. It's our job to document everything, and sometimes, keeping things separated is the clearest way to present all the info, especially when the subjects themselves were accepted by everyone as being separate things for years: easy navigation is important, and if nothing else, separate articles are more likely to funnels in search traffic too. As for your specific points, ''SML'' is different in ''many'' ways: different setting, different princess, different basic flower power-up, and different enemies (only one is shared with ''any'' other game), to name the biggest ones. ''SML2'' is still unique from the rest of the series, from its different design of Fire Mario, to its basic plot (no princess at all, nor kingdoms to save, just Wario squatting in Mario's castle), to the fact that most of its enemy roster are one-offs too. And before you say "but ''SMB2'' is different too", well, it still had Peach in some capacity (same with ''SM3DW''), Wart is a much closer stand-in for Bowser than Wario or Tatanga, and many of its enemies became recurring fixtures of ''SM'' and the ''Mario'' series as a whole, whereas all we got from the ''SML'' games were Daisy and Wario in spin-offs (with the only effect on the ''SM'' platformers being Wario in ''SM64DS'' - pretty small impact all things considered). The ''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010]]'' booklet that came with ''[[Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition]]'' (aka ''Super Mario All-Stars - 25th Anniversary Edition'') included a timeline of ''SM'' games that included the three ''SMA'' remakes (and ''Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros.'', iirc), so there ''is'' a point in mentioning them here. And I was saying ''SMAS'' was left out of the 30th Anniversary stuff, not the 25th, where it was included both as an excuse to talk about ''Lost Levels'' and in its own right in the aforementioned timeline, so again, it missing from the 30th stuff is a valid point in my overall "neither anniversary are complete listings of the ''SM'' games anyway" argument against using it as the definitive ''SM'' game list for the wiki (which is also why I mention the misc. ports and remakes). And having to potentially flip-flop and reorganize the wiki every five years should Nintendo change their minds again come next anniversary is in itself another reason ''why'' blindly following these things is a bad idea. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 16:52, 4 October 2015 (EDT)

::"@Walkazo: You are saying it is not arbitrarily cut perfectly good series in half because there are history sections, templates and categories that would be affected, that clearly implies laziness from part of editors to organize this stuff, because it is possible to do it, it just would require a tiresome editing session."

::The problem is the pay-off from all of this work. I don't like how you accuse editors of how it "clearly" (emphasis on quotes) implies laziness when frankly, a good deal of them already have a bunch of piled-up editing work; this ''is'' a much more major project than you think, and I do question exactly why should this page be merged. It seems fine perfectly on its own. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:15, 5 October 2015 (EDT)

::"@Ghost Jam: "Burning the forest for the trees"? of course not, we would be moving this forest to a greater forest, for the sake of its "survival", there's no need to "burn" anything, that would be waste."

::As has been pointed out by Walkazo, your proposed changes would result in a large portion of established articles to either be significantly reduced in content or outright removed. What goes where and how much of it is therefore covered is a Wikipedia concern, we have to cover everything regardless. Given that, it makes more since to continue with our established archiving methods and note as needed any changes or statements made by Nintendo. -- [[User:Ghost Jam|Ghost Jam]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 02:17, 6 October 2015 (EDT)

==I'll do it!==

I will delete this article (and rearrange the [[Super Mario (series)]] article to put it in chronological order) '''RIGHT NOW''' if no one stops me! [[User:Super Griffin|Super Griffin]] ([[User talk:Super Griffin|talk]]) 09:10, 27 February 2017 (EST)

==Maybe this proposal should be re-done...==
The current story is that there ''is'' no "Super Mario Land" series, as it has been merged into the main ''Super Mario'' series. In fact, given that it ''is'' official word, that should ''automatically'' overrule ''anything'' the members of this wiki say. Either way, it's two games plus a clumsily tacked-on ''Wario Land'' game that is about as related as ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' is to the ''[[Super Mario (series)|Super Mario]]'' series, although admittedly it once was. Just not anymore. Anyways, it looks painfully awkward how, for instance, the ambiguously-colored Troopas from ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]'' are listed in a separate section from the other ''Super Mario'' games based off of an outdated series classification. Given that official word is law in this regard, I suggest it is done, proposing unnecessary. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:33, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
:I agree that if Nintendo has stated that the ''Land'' series isn't separate, then the info should be merged. We're not separating the 2D/3D titles, or the ''Galaxy'' titles, or the ''3D Land'' and ''3D World'' titles. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:08, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
::So, anyone else? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:41, 27 November 2017 (EST)
:::Old, but I thought there already was a proposal to fully merge this? The ''Super Mario Land'' games are already included in the ''Super Mario'' series article, so I didn't realize this was still its own article until now. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:55, July 16, 2020 (EDT)
::::Yeah, there was [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 52|a proposal]] a while back to consider the Super Mario Land games (as well as Run and Maker) as part of the Super Mario series, specifically a proposal which this conversation actually predates. I'm guessing the series article is just something that got lost in the transition (which was never fully completed either, since I still find history sections with those games outside of the Super Mario section from time to time) despite being named in the proposal itself. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:01, July 16, 2020 (EDT)
:::::Actually, I believe during said proposal it was decided we would keep both since ''for a time'' Nintendo considered them separate, with this being more of a historical thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:35, July 16, 2020 (EDT)
::::::Has Nintendo ever referred to the "''New Super Mario Bros.'' series" at any point? Because if the ''Super Mario Land'' series is its own article, I feel that the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series should as well, especially considering several articles already refer to it as the "''New Super Mario Bros.'' sub-series". [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:37, July 18, 2020 (EDT)

== Merge to the main series page ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-2|merge}}
Alright, I think it's finally about time we do this for real. Nintendo's considered the Super Mario Land games to be part of the main series for a while now, and aside from a few stragglers here and there, our content has mostly been updated to reflect that, the glaring exception being this page, which is mostly redundant since the Super Mario (series) page already covers these games anyway. Not much else to say here, let's get it done.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 11, 2022, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I agree with me.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, it doesn't make sense to not do this for New Super Mario Bros. or Galaxy or Maker but do it here.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} [[File:Smorg small.png|30px]] MERGE!!! [[File:Smorg small.png|30px]]
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Very much support, per proposal.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|WildWario}} Per all.

===Oppose===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - We still have "[[Yoshi's Island (series)]]" separate from "[[Yoshi (platform series)]]" despite it being explicitly a sub-series thereof and there's been a reasonably large amount of support for creating "series" articles for "Super Mario Bros." and "Super Mario Maker," so I'd prefer to go in the opposite direction. That being said, something ''should'' be done about how the "Yoshi (platform series)" article is handled.
#{{user|Metalex123}} - Per Doc. Super Mario Land is a series that consists of 3 games, 4 with the cancelled one, why would it not deserve a page? Also I do not get why New Super Mario Bros doesn't have a series page even though it is clearly a series of games too, it even has more games than Super Mario Land, or other series that do have pages like Luigi's Mansion.

===Comments===