Editing Talk:Super Mario Land (series)
From the Super Mario Wiki, the Mario encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The edit can be undone. Please check the comparison below to verify that this is what you want to do, and then publish the changes below to finish undoing the edit.
| Latest revision | Your text | ||
| Line 9: | Line 9: | ||
== Merge to ''Super Mario'' (series) == | == Merge to ''Super Mario'' (series) == | ||
{{TPP}} | |||
For the [[Super Mario Bros. 30th Anniversary|''Super Mario Bros.'' 30th Anniversary]], Nintendo retconned from what they didn't do for the 25th Anniversary: include ''[[Super Mario Land]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]'' in the line-up of the main [[Super Mario (series)|''Super Mario'']] platforming games. This wiki hasn't do anything at this respect, except for pointing this curiousity in the pages. With this change of mind from Nintendo, we no longer need this article on its own and should be merged with the ''Super Mario'' series one, no matter if they weren't made by Miyamoto or his EAD team, what it should matter is that they were made by Nintendo and they have been offically included to a greater, and more important, series. But what about ''[[Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3]]''? well, up to this point people should know that game belongs more to the [[Wario Land (series)|''Wario Land'']] series, 'nuff said, it's the inaugural game for that series. This is similar to the case for ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'', who took the name of another game in order to appeal people to get the game. Nintendo did that because they were experimenting for the then-new series, but a name doesn't necesarily make a game part of a series, that's why we never included ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' to this page. We should be aware that ''Yoshi's Island'' was called a main Mario game by Miyamoto, but has been excluded from the line-up for the 25th and 30th Anniversaries of ''Super Mario Bros.'' so ''Wario Land'' is no different for this. ''Wario Land'' will be fine on its own series. | For the [[Super Mario Bros. 30th Anniversary|''Super Mario Bros.'' 30th Anniversary]], Nintendo retconned from what they didn't do for the 25th Anniversary: include ''[[Super Mario Land]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]'' in the line-up of the main [[Super Mario (series)|''Super Mario'']] platforming games. This wiki hasn't do anything at this respect, except for pointing this curiousity in the pages. With this change of mind from Nintendo, we no longer need this article on its own and should be merged with the ''Super Mario'' series one, no matter if they weren't made by Miyamoto or his EAD team, what it should matter is that they were made by Nintendo and they have been offically included to a greater, and more important, series. But what about ''[[Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3]]''? well, up to this point people should know that game belongs more to the [[Wario Land (series)|''Wario Land'']] series, 'nuff said, it's the inaugural game for that series. This is similar to the case for ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'', who took the name of another game in order to appeal people to get the game. Nintendo did that because they were experimenting for the then-new series, but a name doesn't necesarily make a game part of a series, that's why we never included ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' to this page. We should be aware that ''Yoshi's Island'' was called a main Mario game by Miyamoto, but has been excluded from the line-up for the 25th and 30th Anniversaries of ''Super Mario Bros.'' so ''Wario Land'' is no different for this. ''Wario Land'' will be fine on its own series. | ||
| Line 22: | Line 21: | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per what I said [[MarioWiki:Proposals/ | #{{User|Walkazo}} - Per what I said [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Change_the_main_series_to_include_Super_Mario_Land_1_and_2|in this proposal]]. While I think the ''SM'' series page should include the first two ''SML'' games (and ''Yoshi's Island'') somehow, like how it has [[Super Mario (series)#Ports, remakes, and downloadable content|all the random ''SMB'' remakes and whatnot]] listed separately from the main games, it should '''NOT''' be ''instead'' of having a separate ''SML'' series page. It ''isn't'' just some redundant/nested subseries (as "{{fakelink|''NSMB'' (series)}}" would be): it's straddling both the ''SM'' and ''Wario Land'' series, and it is ''not'' our place to arbitrarily cut perfectly good series in half. ''WL:SML3'' (and ''VB Mario Land'') would indeed be out of place in the ''SM'' series page, but I think it's important that there ''is'' a series page that groups all the ''Land'' games together (like how we have a [[Super Mario Advance (series)]] page to group ''Yoshi's Island'' with the three main ''SM'' remakes). Furthermore, it's not ''just'' the series pages at stake: History sections, templates and categories are all affected by how we organize these games (we want to be consistent, after all), and I feel very strongly that it makes sense to keep the ''SML'' games separate in these capacities, given how different the games are to the usual ''SM'' games (''SM3DL'' is no ''SML''), the awkwardness of how the three finished games bridge two series, and their historic separation - the 30th anniversary stuff may include them now, but the 25th's exclusion of them should not be ignored, nor should all the years of separation preceding it. Also keep in mind that the 30th stuff leaves out major remakes like ''[[Super Mario All-Stars|SMAS]]'' and the ''SMA'' series, the US version leaves out ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels|Lost Levels]]'', and neither it nor the 25th stuff included the aforementioned random ''SMB'' remakes we still gotta keep in our article: Nintendo's free to pick and choose what to celebrate in their highlight reel, but we're stuck reporting on everything, and keeping the ''SML'' series intact is the best way to organize that info. | ||
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} In general, per Walkazo. In the long, pretty much what I said [[MarioWiki:Proposals/ | #{{User|Ghost Jam}} In general, per Walkazo. In the long, pretty much what I said [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Change_the_main_series_to_include_Super_Mario_Land_1_and_2|last time.]] There are some interesting talking points to be had and both sides are going to make the same valid arguments, but there just isn't enough compelling reasons to A. Shake up our entire core structure (with this proposal acting as the first quake), B. Disrupt the main point of MarioWiki, which is to document all things Mario, with an emphasis on the games and C. Make broad, unsupported judgement about what is or is not valid (keeping in mind that our main designation is "educational archive", thus we document, not judge). Perhaps we could display the perceived discrepancy differently or otherwise work it into relevant article bodies better, but I fully disagree with burning the forest for the trees. | ||
#{{User|Infinite8}} Per Walkazo. Putting the ''SML'' games in the Mario 30th anniversary history doesn't consider as part of the ''Super Mario'' series. Nintendo just put the ''SML'' games as part of the Mario platforming series, although didn't include the ''Wario Land'' games and the ''Yoshi's Island'' games. | #{{User|Infinite8}} Per Walkazo. Putting the ''SML'' games in the Mario 30th anniversary history doesn't consider as part of the ''Super Mario'' series. Nintendo just put the ''SML'' games as part of the Mario platforming series, although didn't include the ''Wario Land'' games and the ''Yoshi's Island'' games. | ||
#{{User|Roy Koopa}} Per Walkazo's wall of text | #{{User|Roy Koopa}} Per Walkazo's wall of text | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
| Line 48: | Line 43: | ||
::You may gripe that other users like living in the past, but I personally find it much more frustrating to have to deal with merge-happy users periodically seeking to destroy perfectly good articles and pretend like the past never happened. It's our job to document everything, and sometimes, keeping things separated is the clearest way to present all the info, especially when the subjects themselves were accepted by everyone as being separate things for years: easy navigation is important, and if nothing else, separate articles are more likely to funnels in search traffic too. As for your specific points, ''SML'' is different in ''many'' ways: different setting, different princess, different basic flower power-up, and different enemies (only one is shared with ''any'' other game), to name the biggest ones. ''SML2'' is still unique from the rest of the series, from its different design of Fire Mario, to its basic plot (no princess at all, nor kingdoms to save, just Wario squatting in Mario's castle), to the fact that most of its enemy roster are one-offs too. And before you say "but ''SMB2'' is different too", well, it still had Peach in some capacity (same with ''SM3DW''), Wart is a much closer stand-in for Bowser than Wario or Tatanga, and many of its enemies became recurring fixtures of ''SM'' and the ''Mario'' series as a whole, whereas all we got from the ''SML'' games were Daisy and Wario in spin-offs (with the only effect on the ''SM'' platformers being Wario in ''SM64DS'' - pretty small impact all things considered). The ''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010]]'' booklet that came with ''[[Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition]]'' (aka ''Super Mario All-Stars - 25th Anniversary Edition'') included a timeline of ''SM'' games that included the three ''SMA'' remakes (and ''Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros.'', iirc), so there ''is'' a point in mentioning them here. And I was saying ''SMAS'' was left out of the 30th Anniversary stuff, not the 25th, where it was included both as an excuse to talk about ''Lost Levels'' and in its own right in the aforementioned timeline, so again, it missing from the 30th stuff is a valid point in my overall "neither anniversary are complete listings of the ''SM'' games anyway" argument against using it as the definitive ''SM'' game list for the wiki (which is also why I mention the misc. ports and remakes). And having to potentially flip-flop and reorganize the wiki every five years should Nintendo change their minds again come next anniversary is in itself another reason ''why'' blindly following these things is a bad idea. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 16:52, 4 October 2015 (EDT) | ::You may gripe that other users like living in the past, but I personally find it much more frustrating to have to deal with merge-happy users periodically seeking to destroy perfectly good articles and pretend like the past never happened. It's our job to document everything, and sometimes, keeping things separated is the clearest way to present all the info, especially when the subjects themselves were accepted by everyone as being separate things for years: easy navigation is important, and if nothing else, separate articles are more likely to funnels in search traffic too. As for your specific points, ''SML'' is different in ''many'' ways: different setting, different princess, different basic flower power-up, and different enemies (only one is shared with ''any'' other game), to name the biggest ones. ''SML2'' is still unique from the rest of the series, from its different design of Fire Mario, to its basic plot (no princess at all, nor kingdoms to save, just Wario squatting in Mario's castle), to the fact that most of its enemy roster are one-offs too. And before you say "but ''SMB2'' is different too", well, it still had Peach in some capacity (same with ''SM3DW''), Wart is a much closer stand-in for Bowser than Wario or Tatanga, and many of its enemies became recurring fixtures of ''SM'' and the ''Mario'' series as a whole, whereas all we got from the ''SML'' games were Daisy and Wario in spin-offs (with the only effect on the ''SM'' platformers being Wario in ''SM64DS'' - pretty small impact all things considered). The ''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010]]'' booklet that came with ''[[Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition]]'' (aka ''Super Mario All-Stars - 25th Anniversary Edition'') included a timeline of ''SM'' games that included the three ''SMA'' remakes (and ''Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros.'', iirc), so there ''is'' a point in mentioning them here. And I was saying ''SMAS'' was left out of the 30th Anniversary stuff, not the 25th, where it was included both as an excuse to talk about ''Lost Levels'' and in its own right in the aforementioned timeline, so again, it missing from the 30th stuff is a valid point in my overall "neither anniversary are complete listings of the ''SM'' games anyway" argument against using it as the definitive ''SM'' game list for the wiki (which is also why I mention the misc. ports and remakes). And having to potentially flip-flop and reorganize the wiki every five years should Nintendo change their minds again come next anniversary is in itself another reason ''why'' blindly following these things is a bad idea. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 16:52, 4 October 2015 (EDT) | ||
