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| ==Keep this page? Or no.== | | ==Keep this page? Or no.== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|cancelled}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|cancelled}} |
| I wouldn't consider this a TPP, so here is what this is. | | I wouldn't consider this a TPP, so here is what this is. |
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| ==Create a New Super Mario Bros. (series) page== | | ==Create a New Super Mario Bros. (series) page== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|11-14|do not create}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|failed|11-14|do not create}} |
| I think, with 4 games and 1 extension game, we should create an article about New Super Mario Bros. sub-series. Why we can not talk about since Article about some sub-series, like the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)]] being sub-series of [[Donkey Kong (series)]], I read a Iwata Ask about New Super Mario Bros. Wii (I think or was it one of New Super Mario Bros.), is one reason why the team believes New Super Mario Bros. a new type of game to the Super Mario Bros. grind because of the 2.5D graphics and it was the reason they stuck the word "New" on the game's title. So, why not? | | I think, with 4 games and 1 extension game, we should create an article about New Super Mario Bros. sub-series. Why we can not talk about since Article about some sub-series, like the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)]] being sub-series of [[Donkey Kong (series)]], I read a Iwata Ask about New Super Mario Bros. Wii (I think or was it one of New Super Mario Bros.), is one reason why the team believes New Super Mario Bros. a new type of game to the Super Mario Bros. grind because of the 2.5D graphics and it was the reason they stuck the word "New" on the game's title. So, why not? |
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| #{{User|PowerKamek}} Per all. | | #{{User|PowerKamek}} Per all. |
| #{{User|BabyLuigi64}} We actually [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 41#New Article|did have a proposal about this]]; Per all opposing reasons there. | | #{{User|BabyLuigi64}} We actually [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 41#New Article|did have a proposal about this]]; Per all opposing reasons there. |
| #{{User|Walkazo}} - Been mulling this over since I was on the fence, but yeah, gonna listen to my gut and vote "no" on this, like how I opposed the past proposals. The ''NSMB'' games are no more different than the other 2D platformers as ''SMB2'' (except graphically, but as seen in ''Super Mario Maker'', that's pretty superficial), and certainly not more different than when you compare the ''SM64''-type games to ''SMB'' etc. And most worrisomely to me it that it opens the door to iffier subseries pages being made too, and even the splitting of History sections, which we emphatically don't want; the "there's already a subseries page" argument gives the pro-splitters a foot in the door, and will probably led to ''more'' attempts due to the perceived inconsistency between the series pages and the organizational aspect of the wiki: better to be consistent. And upon further consideration, we ''don't'' actually have an example of a completely nested subseries getting its own page, so this ''would'' be a new precedent: ''SML'' is separate from both ''SM'' and ''WL'', thanks to ''YI'', ''SMA'' is not completely contained within ''SM'', and while there ''are'' separate ''DKC''/''DKL'' series pages despite them being grouped together in History sections (but not [[Template:Donkey Kong games|templates]] or categories currently), there's no umbrella page (the overall ''DK'' series is more like the overall ''Mario'' series page). And to a lesser extent I tand by my final argument [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_41#New_Article|in the]] older [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_39#Changes_to_the_sub-series_sections|proposals]], in that we should focus on making extant series pages less crappy, rather than piling on redundant new ones to neglect. | | #{{User|Walkazo}} - Been mulling this over since I was on the fence, but yeah, gonna listen to my gut and vote "no" on this, like how I opposed the past proposals. The ''NSMB'' games are no more different than the other 2D platformers as ''SMB2'' (except graphically, but as seen in ''Super Mario Maker'', that's pretty superficial), and certainly not more different than when you compare the ''SM64''-type games to ''SMB'' etc. And most worrisomely to me it that it opens the door to iffier subseries pages being made too, and even the splitting of History sections, which we emphatically don't want; the "there's already a subseries page" argument gives the pro-splitters a foot in the door, and will probably led to ''more'' attempts due to the perceived inconsistency between the series pages and the organizational aspect of the wiki: better to be consistent. And upon further consideration, we ''don't'' actually have an example of a completely nested subseries getting its own page, so this ''would'' be a new precedent: ''SML'' is separate from both ''SM'' and ''WL'', thanks to ''YI'', ''SMA'' is not completely contained within ''SM'', and while there ''are'' separate ''DKC''/''DKL'' series pages despite them being grouped together in History sections (but not [[Template:DKGames|templates]] or categories currently), there's no umbrella page (the overall ''DK'' series is more like the overall ''Mario'' series page). And to a lesser extent I tand by my final argument [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_41#New_Article|in the]] older [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_39#Changes_to_the_sub-series_sections|proposals]], in that we should focus on making extant series pages less crappy, rather than piling on redundant new ones to neglect. |
| #{{User|RandomYoshi}} – I really don't like creating new articles just for the sake of creating new articles, which is what this seems to be all about. Furthermore, the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games are not that much more different from the mainline ''Super Mario'' games. If your argument that they differ enough is that the titles in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series contain [[Star Coins]], plot twist, ''[[Super Mario World]]'' already had a [[Dragon Coin|similar mechanic]], whilst ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'' also had [[Ace Coin|specific coin]]s that could be collected in a similar fashion. Furthermore, the inclusion of [[Red Coin]]s in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Deluxe]]'''s [[Super Mario Bros. Deluxe#Challenge|challenge mode]] further cements my belief that the creation of a ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series page is absolutely unnecessary. I would also write something about how the categorisation of these new pages, and how this would open the floodgates for new series pages to be created, but it appears that Walkazo has already illustrated opinions that are similar to my own in this instance, so I have to say per Walkazo on those points. | | #{{User|RandomYoshi}} – I really don't like creating new articles just for the sake of creating new articles, which is what this seems to be all about. Furthermore, the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games are not that much more different from the mainline ''Super Mario'' games. If your argument that they differ enough is that the titles in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series contain [[Star Coins]], plot twist, ''[[Super Mario World]]'' already had a [[Dragon Coin|similar mechanic]], whilst ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'' also had [[Ace Coin|specific coin]]s that could be collected in a similar fashion. Furthermore, the inclusion of [[Red Coin]]s in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Deluxe]]'''s [[Super Mario Bros. Deluxe#Challenge|challenge mode]] further cements my belief that the creation of a ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series page is absolutely unnecessary. I would also write something about how the categorisation of these new pages, and how this would open the floodgates for new series pages to be created, but it appears that Walkazo has already illustrated opinions that are similar to my own in this instance, so I have to say per Walkazo on those points. |
| #{{User|Boo4761}} Per all, especially Pi, Chocolate Mario, Walkazo, and BabyLuigi64. | | #{{User|Boo4761}} Per all, especially Pi, Chocolate Mario, Walkazo, and BabyLuigi64. |
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| ==Create a New Super Mario Bros. (series) page -2nd Try-== | | ==Create a New Super Mario Bros. (series) page -2nd Try-== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-8|do not create}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-8|do not create}} |
| I know it will perhaps be boring to bring a proposal that was closed in July, but with new wiki users and new arguments I would like to share what’s could possibly change. For my part, I sincerely believe that the New Super Mario Bros line of games deserves an article for his own series. The team working in this line of games explained in an Iwata Ask the reason of having hung the word "New" in the name and it was because of the 2.5D and that's why they say it is a new type of game. I don’t think we should drop the argument of the producers. Then another of my arguments it’s that I do not believe that New Super Mario Bros. Is a continuity of the old Super Mario Bros, because each games are entirely different, SMB1 being different from SMB2, which is also different from SMB3. When I play SMB1, I don’t think I’m playing the same type of game when I play SMB3, but when I play [[New Super Mario Bros. Wii|NSMBWii]] and [[New Super Mario Bros. U|NSMBU]], it’s like I’m playing same game. Furthermore, I also believe that the old 2D games are the 3D games of today, because each of them have a place completely different and a different type of action from the previous ([[Super Mario Bros.|SMB1]] happening in the Mushroom Kingdom, [[Super Mario Bros. 2|SMB2]] in Subcon, [[Super Mario Bros. 3|SMB3]] in the Mushroom World, [[Super Mario World|SMW]] in Dinosaur Land, [[Super Mario 64|SM64]] in Peach’s Castle, [[Super Mario Sunshine|SMS]] in Isle Delfino, [[Super Mario Galaxy|SMG]] and [[Super Mario Galaxy 2|SMG2]] in the galaxies) The NSMB line of games always have the same themes in the Mushroom Kingdom and each level will end with the Goal Pole. Each of the 2D games that are for me the 3D games of today finish a level by different method. Goal Pole for the first game, a boss to SMB2, a Goal Panel for SMB3 a Giant Gate for SMW, a star for SM64, a Shine Sprite for SMS and a Super Star for SMG and SMG2. Also, some sub-series have their page, there is no good reason why it would not be right for this one to have it. It'll perhaps open doors for other sub-series games article, but they can have the potential to have a article, it could allow those who only want to see the details about a sub-series in general to look for them than a article series that having a whole mash-up of game of a complete series. If you want to see NSMB games in general, you go to the article I request to create. About the Super Mario 3D Land and 3D World, I think it is a type of cross-over like Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam being a cross-over of Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi. As another argument, I believe that the first 2D games that are for me the 3D games of today, I think the developers are trying to differentiate the game for each one and they are trying to improve the game in every way, while NSMB game online are an interpretation of the first titles and they try not to make big changes set in. I think I have brought several arguments to convince that in my line NSMB game deserves its series of page like other sub-series have. | | I know it will perhaps be boring to bring a proposal that was closed in July, but with new wiki users and new arguments I would like to share what’s could possibly change. For my part, I sincerely believe that the New Super Mario Bros line of games deserves an article for his own series. The team working in this line of games explained in an Iwata Ask the reason of having hung the word "New" in the name and it was because of the 2.5D and that's why they say it is a new type of game. I don’t think we should drop the argument of the producers. Then another of my arguments it’s that I do not believe that New Super Mario Bros. Is a continuity of the old Super Mario Bros, because each games are entirely different, SMB1 being different from SMB2, which is also different from SMB3. When I play SMB1, I don’t think I’m playing the same type of game when I play SMB3, but when I play [[New Super Mario Bros. Wii|NSMBWii]] and [[New Super Mario Bros. U|NSMBU]], it’s like I’m playing same game. Furthermore, I also believe that the old 2D games are the 3D games of today, because each of them have a place completely different and a different type of action from the previous ([[Super Mario Bros.|SMB1]] happening in the Mushroom Kingdom, [[Super Mario Bros. 2|SMB2]] in Subcon, [[Super Mario Bros. 3|SMB3]] in the Mushroom World, [[Super Mario World|SMW]] in Dinosaur Land, [[Super Mario 64|SM64]] in Peach’s Castle, [[Super Mario Sunshine|SMS]] in Isle Delfino, [[Super Mario Galaxy|SMG]] and [[Super Mario Galaxy 2|SMG2]] in the galaxies) The NSMB line of games always have the same themes in the Mushroom Kingdom and each level will end with the Goal Pole. Each of the 2D games that are for me the 3D games of today finish a level by different method. Goal Pole for the first game, a boss to SMB2, a Goal Panel for SMB3 a Giant Gate for SMW, a star for SM64, a Shine Sprite for SMS and a Super Star for SMG and SMG2. Also, some sub-series have their page, there is no good reason why it would not be right for this one to have it. It'll perhaps open doors for other sub-series games article, but they can have the potential to have a article, it could allow those who only want to see the details about a sub-series in general to look for them than a article series that having a whole mash-up of game of a complete series. If you want to see NSMB games in general, you go to the article I request to create. About the Super Mario 3D Land and 3D World, I think it is a type of cross-over like Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam being a cross-over of Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi. As another argument, I believe that the first 2D games that are for me the 3D games of today, I think the developers are trying to differentiate the game for each one and they are trying to improve the game in every way, while NSMB game online are an interpretation of the first titles and they try not to make big changes set in. I think I have brought several arguments to convince that in my line NSMB game deserves its series of page like other sub-series have. |
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| Should Super Mario Maker be considered a mainstream game? It has the standard platforming and "Super Mario" in the name, but the levels are primarily user-generated. I wanted to get the community's opinions on the subject before adding it.--[[User:MarioManTAW|MarioManTAW]] ([[User talk:MarioManTAW|talk]]) 11:06, 22 April 2016 (EDT) | | Should Super Mario Maker be considered a mainstream game? It has the standard platforming and "Super Mario" in the name, but the levels are primarily user-generated. I wanted to get the community's opinions on the subject before adding it.--[[User:MarioManTAW|MarioManTAW]] ([[User talk:MarioManTAW|talk]]) 11:06, 22 April 2016 (EDT) |
| :I think it's better off as a miscellaneous game. For starters, there's no official narrative in the game whatsoever; whereas every single mainstream Mario platformer has one. Super Mario Land has more in common than Super Mario Maker, and that has standard platforming and ''Super Mario'' in its name too, but we don't consider it part of the mainstream series. The user-generated content and primary focus around level creation is enough for it to be different than the mainstream ones, and I think there's too much debate whether it constitutes as one, so there's also that. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 11:48, 22 April 2016 (EDT) | | :I think it's better off as a miscellaneous game. For starters, there's no official narrative in the game whatsoever; whereas every single mainstream Mario platformer has one. Super Mario Land has more in common than Super Mario Maker, and that has standard platforming and ''Super Mario'' in its name too, but we don't consider it part of the mainstream series. The user-generated content and primary focus around level creation is enough for it to be different than the mainstream ones, and I think there's too much debate whether it constitutes as one, so there's also that. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 11:48, 22 April 2016 (EDT) |
| ::For what it's worth, there has been a few [[Template talk:Super Mario games#Super_Mario_Maker_is_part_of_the_main_series|relevant]] [[Talk:Super_Mario_Maker#Request_to_move_page_from_the_.27Miscellaneous.27_to_.27Super_Mario_series.27|discussions]] on this. It's been argued that the series should be part of the mainstream games because of its name and gameplay, and it's listed alongside other similar games in the anniversary booklets (but ''Super Mario Land'' stuff is there too, and we don't group ''Super Mario Land'' for various reasons). On the other hand, this deviates strongly from the other mainstream games just by being a level maker tool thing rather than a traditional game, so you could make a case for that too. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:06, 22 April 2016 (EDT) | | ::For what it's worth, there has been a few [[Template_talk:MarioGames#Super_Mario_Maker_is_part_of_the_main_series|relevant]] [[Talk:Super_Mario_Maker#Request_to_move_page_from_the_.27Miscellaneous.27_to_.27Super_Mario_series.27|discussions]] on this. It's been argued that the series should be part of the mainstream games because of its name and gameplay, and it's listed alongside other similar games in the anniversary booklets (but ''Super Mario Land'' stuff is there too, and we don't group ''Super Mario Land'' for various reasons). On the other hand, this deviates strongly from the other mainstream games just by being a level maker tool thing rather than a traditional game, so you could make a case for that too. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:06, 22 April 2016 (EDT) |
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| == My edit == | | == My edit == |
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| ::Also with that, I'd like to point out that Toadette and Daisy are included in "main" due to ''Super Mario Run'', of all things, one of which is DLC. Yes, I'd say F.L.U.D.D., Luma, and Cappy deserve to be there as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:58, 13 December 2017 (EST) | | ::Also with that, I'd like to point out that Toadette and Daisy are included in "main" due to ''Super Mario Run'', of all things, one of which is DLC. Yes, I'd say F.L.U.D.D., Luma, and Cappy deserve to be there as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:58, 13 December 2017 (EST) |
| :::And the "additional games" section just needs merged with the main, as it's opinionated and speculative to call them "additional" for any reason listed. So what if some of them have been retroactively included? As shown in the above section, ''Yoshi's Island'' seems to have been retroactively ''ex''cluded. And if ''Super Mario Maker'' and ''Run'' have always been included by Nintendo since they were made, they belong in "main," regardless of how spinoff-y they may seem. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:02, 13 December 2017 (EST) | | :::And the "additional games" section just needs merged with the main, as it's opinionated and speculative to call them "additional" for any reason listed. So what if some of them have been retroactively included? As shown in the above section, ''Yoshi's Island'' seems to have been retroactively ''ex''cluded. And if ''Super Mario Maker'' and ''Run'' have always been included by Nintendo since they were made, they belong in "main," regardless of how spinoff-y they may seem. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:02, 13 December 2017 (EST) |
| ::::The problem I see is that this page simply doesn't follow directly what Nintendo states to begin with - which isn't necessarily wrong as for example they changed their mind on Super Mario Maker, which in the ''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'' is very well promoted but clearly stated not to be a game of the ''Super Mario'' series. We must choose to either follow Nintendo sources, in which case we must update the listing to reflect the ''Super Mario'' series in the Mario Portal and also exclusively list the {{file link|EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg|main}} {{file link|EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt2.jpg|characters}} presented in the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' since the Mario Portal now covers other series as well, or we can find different criteria, which we should clarify.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:23, 13 December 2017 (EST) | | ::::The problem I see is that this page simply doesn't follow directly what Nintendo states to begin with - which isn't necessarily wrong as for example they changed their mind on Super Mario Maker, which in the ''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'' is very well promoted but clearly stated not to be a game of the ''Super Mario'' series. We must choose to either follow Nintendo sources, in which case we must update the listing to reflect the ''Super Mario'' series in the Mario Portal and also exclusively list the {{media link|EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg|main}} {{media link|EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt2.jpg|characters}} presented in the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' since the Mario Portal now covers other series as well, or we can find different criteria, which we should clarify.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:23, 13 December 2017 (EST) |
| :::::In all honesty, I don't think the Koopalings make for main antagonists. I don't know why, but I mostly see it as their placement in the series. Bowser Jr may not be a final boss, but he plays second fiddle to Bowser almost all the time, and we know for SURE that Bowser is always the main antagonist, because he is the one who orchestrates all of the kidnappings of Peach, and he just sends his minions sometimes to do his dirty work for him. To be honest, Bowser Jr does more than just serve as a hard boss for the Mario Bros to fight--he is always in their way, always doing things to hinder their progress, but the Koopalings are just hard bosses who serve as Bowser's generals and only sometimes do the dirty work. However, in the end, I think the Koopalings might make for main antagonists, given the arguments that you put out. {{User:Lcrossmk8/sig}} 23:41, 13 December 2017 (EST) | | :::::In all honesty, I don't think the Koopalings make for main antagonists. I don't know why, but I mostly see it as their placement in the series. Bowser Jr may not be a final boss, but he plays second fiddle to Bowser almost all the time, and we know for SURE that Bowser is always the main antagonist, because he is the one who orchestrates all of the kidnappings of Peach, and he just sends his minions sometimes to do his dirty work for him. To be honest, Bowser Jr does more than just serve as a hard boss for the Mario Bros to fight--he is always in their way, always doing things to hinder their progress, but the Koopalings are just hard bosses who serve as Bowser's generals and only sometimes do the dirty work. However, in the end, I think the Koopalings might make for main antagonists, given the arguments that you put out. {{User:Lcrossmk8/sig}} 23:41, 13 December 2017 (EST) |
| ::::::I think I can kinda explain why: As you pointed out; Junior has a presence and is a recurring enemy throughout a usual game, whereas the Koopalings are, individually, seen once prior to the ending so whilst they are technically antagonists, it's harder to credit them because they're not a single person. Then again, Kamek occasionally plays a similar role to Junior and he's listed in the Secondary Antagonists section so it's a more of a question, to me at least, as to whether or not we bump Junior down.--[[User:Thatguy62|Thatguy62]] ([[User talk:Thatguy62|talk]]) 23:52, 13 December 2017 (EST) | | ::::::I think I can kinda explain why: As you pointed out; Junior has a presence and is a recurring enemy throughout a usual game, whereas the Koopalings are, individually, seen once prior to the ending so whilst they are technically antagonists, it's harder to credit them because they're not a single person. Then again, Kamek occasionally plays a similar role to Junior and he's listed in the Secondary Antagonists section so it's a more of a question, to me at least, as to whether or not we bump Junior down.--[[User:Thatguy62|Thatguy62]] ([[User talk:Thatguy62|talk]]) 23:52, 13 December 2017 (EST) |
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| :I remember having this debate before, and the short answer is "no, Yoshi's Island is not a core Mario series game". There's a lot of arguments to dig up that I don't feel like parsing through old proposals to find an appropriate comments section, [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Change_the_main_series_to_include_Super_Mario_Land_1_and_2 one of them is sorta related but not completely]. Additional games aren't merged because they aren't part of the main series per se, they sorta go out of their way to do their own thing (and the Super Mario Land thing is addressed in the linked proposal.) {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 20:16, 13 January 2018 (EST) | | :I remember having this debate before, and the short answer is "no, Yoshi's Island is not a core Mario series game". There's a lot of arguments to dig up that I don't feel like parsing through old proposals to find an appropriate comments section, [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Change_the_main_series_to_include_Super_Mario_Land_1_and_2 one of them is sorta related but not completely]. Additional games aren't merged because they aren't part of the main series per se, they sorta go out of their way to do their own thing (and the Super Mario Land thing is addressed in the linked proposal.) {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 20:16, 13 January 2018 (EST) |
| ::Well, shouldn't we at least move it to "additional games"? -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 20:41, 13 January 2018 (EST) | | ::Well, shouldn't we at least move it to "additional games"? -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 20:41, 13 January 2018 (EST) |
| :::Since that interview Nintendo didn't put Yoshi's Island among the ''Super Mario'' games. They didn't do so in the {{file link|Super Mario Bros 30th Anniversary - JP Artwork.jpg|30th anniversary of Super Mario Bros.}} and, as a consequence, in the ''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'', they don't do so in the ''[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/collection/search.html#?g=series&v=mariobros Mario Portal]'' - and the American ''[http://mario.nintendo.com/history/ Official Home of Mario]'' as well. They rather put the game as the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZXxOb6S6s0 first ''Yoshi'' platform game] and the {{file link|SMP Yoshi's Island opt.png|first game in the ''Yoshi's Island'' series}}. I do even wonder if we are giving that interview too much weight, as we don't have the Japanese words, creating ambiguity in the meaning of ''core Mario series'', and more than five years passed since when it was published - the current situation of the Koopalings doesn't count as affirming the current validity of that interview, as well before it already ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl'' , ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' and ''Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition'' stated that they weren't Bowser's children but rather Bowser's minions.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:15, 13 January 2018 (EST) | | :::Since that interview Nintendo didn't put Yoshi's Island among the ''Super Mario'' games. They didn't do so in the {{media link|Super Mario Bros 30th Anniversary - JP Artwork.jpg|30th anniversary of Super Mario Bros.}} and, as a consequence, in the ''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'', they don't do so in the ''[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/collection/search.html#?g=series&v=mariobros Mario Portal]'' - and the American ''[http://mario.nintendo.com/history/ Official Home of Mario]'' as well. They rather put the game as the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZXxOb6S6s0 first ''Yoshi'' platform game] and the {{media link|SMP Yoshi's Island opt.png|first game in the ''Yoshi's Island'' series}}. I do even wonder if we are giving that interview too much weight, as we don't have the Japanese words, creating ambiguity in the meaning of ''core Mario series'', and more than five years passed since when it was published - the current situation of the Koopalings doesn't count as affirming the current validity of that interview, as well before it already ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl'' , ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' and ''Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition'' stated that they weren't Bowser's children but rather Bowser's minions.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:15, 13 January 2018 (EST) |
| ::::Okay. -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 01:41, 14 January 2018 (EST) | | ::::Okay. -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 01:41, 14 January 2018 (EST) |
| :::::This has been brought up twice before on this very page. I think the safest thing to do would be to put it in the "additional games" section, and change that section's header to say that those games are ''sometimes'' considered to be part of the series, but not consistently. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:25, 14 January 2018 (EST) | | :::::This has been brought up twice before on this very page. I think the safest thing to do would be to put it in the "additional games" section, and change that section's header to say that those games are ''sometimes'' considered to be part of the series, but not consistently. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:25, 14 January 2018 (EST) |
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| == Include ''Super Princess Peach'' as a related game == | | == Include ''Super Princess Peach'' as a related game == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|no consensus|11-10}}
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| See above. SPP acts as a role-reversal on the typical ''Super Mario'' formula and its graphics and enemy cast are heavily based on the ''Super Mario Advance'' games. It has its own gameplay quirks, but so do most of what's already in "related." That's not even getting into the nixed Koopaling appearance and the fact that even in the final, most bosses are from the ''Super Mario'' series. | | See above. SPP acts as a role-reversal on the typical ''Super Mario'' formula and its graphics and enemy cast are heavily based on the ''Super Mario Advance'' games. It has its own gameplay quirks, but so do most of what's already in "related." That's not even getting into the nixed Koopaling appearance and the fact that even in the final, most bosses are from the ''Super Mario'' series. |
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| #{{User|Metalex123}} Per all | | #{{User|Metalex123}} Per all |
| #{{User|Scrooge200}} I'd call it related in the same vein as ''Yoshi's Island'' and ''New Super Luigi U''. Makes sense to put it here, it's not even mentioned on the article as-is. | | #{{User|Scrooge200}} I'd call it related in the same vein as ''Yoshi's Island'' and ''New Super Luigi U''. Makes sense to put it here, it's not even mentioned on the article as-is. |
| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Jacklavin}} I'm playing this game right now, and it's definitely most closely related to the main series. Not only is every enemy a Mario enemy, but it also features the return of Petey Piranha, King Boo, Gooper Blooper, Kamek, and Bowser as bosses. In nearly every Super Mario game, Bowser kidnaps Peach and Mario must rescue her. In this one, Bowser kidnaps Mario and Peach must rescue her. This doesn't make it a different series.
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| ===Oppose=== | | ===Oppose=== |
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. | | #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. |
| #{{User|Mustard Machine}} Per all. | | #{{User|Mustard Machine}} Per all. |
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| ===Comments=== | | ===Comments=== |
| To the opposition: why do you consider this unrelated? That truly befuddles me. The gameplay, cast, and graphics are all variations of ''Super Mario Advance'' series assets, and unlike the mentioned ''Mario Party 9'', this is actually within the same genre. So I ask again: how is it unrelated? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:06, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
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| :(continued in below section)
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| ==Post-proposal discussion==
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| It is related but I would consider it a standalone game as the whole point is that it's a twist on the usual ''Super Mario'' series formula (starring Peach having to rescue Mario and Luigi), so clearly it is different [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 23:04, April 13, 2022 (EDT)
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| :"It's related but it shouldn't be listed as related" doesn't make sense. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:16, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::I opposed on the grounds that the "unrelated" component is undefined and is going to be a source of contention in the future, so I still kind of question if it's worth keeping it for the headache here. Where do we draw the line if a game should be listed as "related" or not? It's not clear to me that Super Paper Mario should be a related game. It clearly is inspired by the 2D platformers and it plays more similarly to these platformers than Captain Toad does and probably is more of a Super Mario game than Wario Land as well. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:49, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| == Create a "''New Super Mario Bros.'' (series)" page == | | == Create a "''New Super Mario Bros.'' (series)" page == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-9-10|do not create}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-9-10|do not create}} |
| OK, it's that time. ''New Super Mario Bros.'' has been around about 16 years now and it's had a sizeable amount of sequels. Considering we have [[Super Mario Land (series)]] and [[Super Mario Advance (series)]] while still acknowledging the installments on this page, I think it's high time we gave this the same treatment. A lot has changed since the failed 2015 proposals above. | | OK, it's that time. ''New Super Mario Bros.'' has been around about 16 years now and it's had a sizeable amount of sequels. Considering we have [[Super Mario Land (series)]] and [[Super Mario Advance (series)]] while still acknowledging the installments on this page, I think it's high time we gave this the same treatment. A lot has changed since the failed 2015 proposals above. |
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| I think if the page does get created, Yoshi's New Island shouldn't be mentioned at all (not even as a related game) because honestly at this point, it's very likely no one is going to agree with you about it. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 13:17, March 11, 2022 (EST) | | I think if the page does get created, Yoshi's New Island shouldn't be mentioned at all (not even as a related game) because honestly at this point, it's very likely no one is going to agree with you about it. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 13:17, March 11, 2022 (EST) |
| :I think it could be mentioned in one sentence in the intro as at least being similar in spirit and execution. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:15, March 11, 2022 (EST) | | :I think it could be mentioned in one sentence in the intro as at least being similar in spirit and execution. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:15, March 11, 2022 (EST) |
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| == Include ''Super Paper Mario'' as a related game ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-8|Do not include}}
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| Since the ''Peach'' one ended up being divisive, I want to try with something that in retrospect, seems far more obvious to consider related: ''Super Paper Mario'', which as TCRF rather aptly described it, is (intentionally) "a high-speed collision between ''Super Mario Bros.'' and ''Paper Mario''." The sidescrolling ''Super Mario'' aspects are utterly intrinsic to SPM, unlike, say, the Green Energy Plant scene in ''Color Splash'', which was just a neat cameo for a single section of the game. Anyways, the similarities here are too many to list and honestly should be obvious to anyone who's played the game.
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| '''Proposer''': {{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''':April 29, 2022, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Similar or not, I wouldn't say any platformer with the word "Super" in it is immediately related to the core series. As someone who's played SPM many times, I never once thought it was related to the core games, I just thought it was a ''Paper Mario'' game that was a platformer/RPG hybrid. Both ''Super Princess Peach'' and ''Super Paper Mario'' feel more like their own things over branches from the core series.
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| #{{User|Swallow}} Per Tails777, Super Paper Mario is still a lot closer to the previous two Paper Mario games. We're not just going to start listing every single 2D platformer that happens to have "Super" in the title as related to the original Super Mario Bros.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Even if the platforming sections are inspired by ''Super Mario'', so are most of the games in this franchise. I agreed on ''Super Princess Peach'' since it's a full-fledged platformer, isn't part of another sub-series, and has the role-reversal thing, but I'd say this is going a bit too far.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Jazama}} Per all
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| #{{User|Mustard Machine}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Hard no. This is getting out of hand, and as I've pointed out before, '''TONS''' of games originating from Japan use "Super" in the title. This is no exception, as the game (and its apt title, so to speak) functions more as a callback to the series, not a direct relation to the series itself.
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| ===Comments===
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| A little of a challenge question: how does Captain Toad qualify but not Super Paper Mario? From a narrative standpoint, yeah it's off-shooty, but gameplay wise, it's an entirely different game, whereas Super Paper Mario DOES rely on the standard Mario formula as part of the gameplay, moreso than Captain Toad. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 03:39, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Captain Toad Treasure Tracker was directly derived from Super Mario 3D World, more specifically the Captain Toad levels from that game. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 04:33, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
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| There's one thing we should admittedly acknowledge: both ''Super Princess Peach'' and ''Super Paper Mario'' are almost certainly named like this to reflect the inspiration they take from the ''Super Mario'' series, this being particularly evident in ''Super Paper Mario'' where the platforming elements become a core part of the gameplay, especially when facing enemies. I think the biggest problem lies in what is a related game to begin with - a game straightly derived from the series like ''Yoshi's Island'' and especially ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker''? A game that takes inspiration from the series to then offer its own gameplay like ''Super Princess Peach''? A game of a different series that is much more heavily influenced by the ''Super Mario'' series in the gameplay like ''Super Paper Mario''? I think we should first try to give an answer to these and other questions and try to define a little what is a related game, if that's possible (which is not a given). By the way, the official sources - namely the ''Mario Portal'' - [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/ ''do'' put ''Super Mario Bros. 35'' in the ''Super Mario'' series], so we need to review what is written in the introductory paragraph of that section as well.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:07, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
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| :Games derived from the series are what I would go for. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 10:14, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::I would say that what's currently used here - games that directly use gameplay from other games in the series or are marketed with a connection to one (and I mean explicitly, not just having "Super" in the title) - is adequate. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 21:56, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
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| :::In that case, SPP ''should'' be considered, since it is both functionally and visually an SMA series offshoot. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:21, April 20, 2022 (EDT)
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| I think we ought to have a close look at the games that are currently on the list.
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| *Super Mario Bros. Special - I admit I never heard about this one but from what I saw about it seems to be based on the original Super Mario Bros.
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| *Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic - Served as the basis of Super Mario Bros. 2.
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| *Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 - (Disclaimer: I have not played this one myself) Direct follow-up from Super Mario Land 2.
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| *Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island - Titled as a sequel to Super Mario World, and has a Super Mario Advance remake.
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| *New Super Luigi U - One big add-on for New Super Mario Bros. U with the same world map and bosses.
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| *Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker - Based on the Captain Toad levels from Super Mario 3D World. The Wii U version serves as a prequel to that game and even has four levels ported from it (albeit slightly redesigned to work with Captain Toad); the Switch version prequels Super Mario Odyssey and the 3D World levels are replaced with ones based on the Odyssey kingdoms.
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| *Super Mario Bros. 35 - (Never played this one either) An online version of the original Super Mario Bros.<br>
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| Note that all of these games have some form of connection to a game that is part of the main series, whereas Super Princess Peach and Super Paper Mario don't in this regard. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:48, April 23, 2022 (EDT)
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| == Mario Run Main Series Game? ==
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| Why is Mario Kart Tour not classified as a main series Mario Kart game, yet Mario Run is considered a main series platformer? This should be consistent in terms of categorization. {{unsigned|Ladishchap}}
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| :It's because the two articles are organized differently. Mario Kart series is organized by platform (console, arcade, mobile, RC) while the Super Mario series is organized by main games, ports, remakes, related games, and so on. Now, why is it the case, probably due to Mario Kart series being in a better state than this one as well as less confusing categorization going on. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 02:11, May 15, 2022 (EDT)
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| == Move this page to "''Super Mario Bros.'' (series)" ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-15|do not move}}
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| Here's a quick recap. The [[Super Mario (franchise)|''Super Mario'' franchise]] began with ''[[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]]'', followed by early ''Super Mario''-branded games, and received a new game called ''[[VS. Wrecking Crew]]'', the first game in the [[Wrecking Crew (series)|''Wrecking Crew'' series]], and eventually, ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'', the first game in the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series, also known as simply the ''Super Mario'' series. The ''Super Mario Bros.'' series is so popular, that it received multiple platformers (with ''[[Super Mario Land]]'' being the first ''Super Mario Bros.'' game whose name starts with ''Super Mario'', an alternate name for the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series), followed by the [[Super Mario Bros. 25th Anniversary|''Super Mario Bros.'' 25th Anniversary]] from September 13, 2010 to January 10, 2011, the [[Super Mario Bros. 30th Anniversary|''Super Mario Bros.'' 30th Anniversary]] from April 1, 2015 to December 2015, and the the [[Super Mario Bros. 35th Anniversary|''Super Mario Bros.'' 35th Anniversary]] from September 3, 2020 to March 31, 2021. Since the ''Super Mario'' franchise article and the ''Super Mario'' series article may be confusing and/or unclear, I was wondering if there's a possibility to move "''Super Mario'' (series)" to "''Super Mario Bros.'' (series)".
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': September 21, 2023, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|Swallow}} "Super Mario" still appears to mostly be what Nintendo mostly calls the main series, for one thing a lot of the games don't have "bros" in the title and a lot of them, particularly the big 3D games revolve around just Mario. As for Super Mario Bros. 35th Anniversary, that's referring to it being the 35th anniversary of the original Super Mario Bros. game
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| #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - ''Super Mario Bros.'' is actually [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Super Mario Bros. (series)|a distinct subseries]] that does not include the ''Land'' games, the 3D games, or the ''Maker'' games.
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| #{{User|ExoRosalina}} Per Swallow, I think both of them are franchise in the entire series, such as other mainline games.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per Swallow, the main series sharing its name with the franchise is simply the way it is, even if it's somewhat confusing. There's also [[Donkey Kong (franchise)]] and [[Donkey Kong (series)]] for precedent.
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| #{{user|Blhte}} Another little thing is, [https://store-jp.nintendo.com/list/software/70010000068687.html "The first completely new installment in the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series in nearly ''11'' years"], that's what the promotional material for SMBW confirmed itself.
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} Per Swallow and Blhte.
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| #{{User|RealStuffMister}} this would imply that spin-offs like Mario Party, Mario Kart and the sports games are all part of the "Super Mario Bros. series", the line of 2D platformers. It makes no sense and goes against what Nintendo has said themselves.
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} - Per everybody else, but especially Swallow. There's games that Nintendo classifies as parts of this series that flat-out do not have the word "Bros." in them. See the ''Maker'' games, the ''Land'' games, the 3D Platformers, and most importantly ''[[Super Mario World]]''.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Definitely Per all.
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| #{{User|ToxicOJ}} Per all, especially Swallow, Doc von Schmeltwick, and Blhte.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Mateo}} Per my comment, Blhte, and Nintendo themselves.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
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| #{{User|MegaBowser64}} *cough* *sigh* yeah we could definitely have a Super Mario Bros. series article but only for actual SMB games... *sigh*
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
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| ===Comments===
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| If you're declining the move, then what do you think a better way is to do? {{User:GuntherBB/sig}} 12:34, September 8, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Just leave it as is. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 12:37, September 8, 2023 (EDT)
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| :We could try having an ''additional'' page for the actual ''Super Mario Bros.'' series I linked above (along with other subseries), but that still needs the kinks ironed out. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:28, September 9, 2023 (EDT)
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| Just want to clarify so that there's no misunderstandings about this in the future: The official distinction Nintendo made in the previously mentioned [https://store-jp.nintendo.com/list/software/70010000068687.html page] (English equivalent [https://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/nintendo-direct-june-2023-recap/ here]) and the also relevant [https://mario.nintendo.com/history/ official timeline] is that ''all'' mainline games starting with ''Super Mario Bros. 1'' are part of the ''Super Mario'' series, while the traditional full-fledged 2D ''Mario'' games (not ''Super Mario Maker'' and ''Super Mario Run'') are part of the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series. [[User:Mateo|Mateo]] ([[User talk:Mateo|talk]]) 18:53, September 12, 2023 (EDT)
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| By the way, to everyone who want to create page for the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series, the [https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/article/6e4c7b40-bd33-4556-8ec3-0c865904ef13 official list of (most likely mainline) games in SMB series] just came out. {{User:Blhte/sig}} 23:34, September 12, 2023 (EDT)
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| :That includes ''Land'' but not ''Land 2'', and ''Land'' itself is debatable since it doesn't have Luigi even implied; it also lacks SMW2, which aside from the English super-title in the final, was also called "Super Mario Bros. 5" internationally until fairly late in development from what I can tell. Are you sure that's the ''Bros.'' series and not just select ''Super Mario'' games? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:40, September 12, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Sorry again I just saw "Here are some side-scrolling action games from the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series" now... That's might means some of them were not mentioned? But I think expect SML2 everyone in mainline was here {{User:Blhte/sig}} 00:12, September 13, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::NSMB2 was also neglected, they were just giving examples. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:43, September 13, 2023 (EDT)
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| ==Memoryman3==
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| We do know now that ''Super Mario Run'' and the ''Super Mario Maker'' series don't count as mainline Super Mario Bros. games by Nintendo's own definitions. Should we categorise the games as 2D, 3D and then Other?--[[User:Memoryman3| memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 08:06, October 6, 2023 (EDT)
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| :There are four subseries here: ''Super Mario Bros.'' (itself including the ''Super Mario Advance'' and ''New Super Mario Bros.'' subseries), ''Super Mario Land'', ''Super Mario 3D'' (including the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' subseries), and ''Super Mario Maker''. ''Run'' is the odd one out; I had it categorized as a ''Bros.'' game until Nintendo themselves said ''Wonder'' is the first fully-new one in so-and-so years. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:11, October 6, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::Nintendo includes the ''Super Mario Land'' games as part of the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series nowadays, even if many elements weren't naturalised into other games. I would categorise ''Run'', ''Mario 35'' and the ''Maker'' series in other for now, acknowledging they aren't traditional fully fledged entries as Nintendo did, but still recognising them as parts of the greater ''Super Mario'' series. What should we do with the related games, namely ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker'' and ''Super Mario Land 3''? --[[User:Memoryman3| memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 12:32, October 10, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::When has ''Land'' been treated as a ''Bros.'' game rather than just another ''Super Mario'' side-scroller (as the thing brought up in the comments on the proposal was determined to be the latter)? ''Capt. Toad'' I'd say is a spinoff of ''3D World'', but still more of it's own "series" (counting the remake) than an actual subcategory of ''Super Mario''. And since ''35'' is a variation on the original ''Super Mario Bros.'', it'd be considered part of that series regardless, like ''Super Mario Bros. Special'', albeit not as a "main" installment. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:04, October 10, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::::On that very same link pointing to the official Nintendo news blog. ''Land'' was given as an example of a game in the main ''Super Mario Bros.'' series. --[[User:Memoryman3| memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 18:36, October 24, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::::But not ''Land 2''. Or ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'', and it's definitely part of it. I think that's just a list of cherry-picked side-scrollers. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:28, October 27, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::::::{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick|Memoryman3}} I'm currently making a ''Super Mario Franchise'' rewrite inspired by Doc's [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Super Mario Bros. (series)|series]] [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Super Mario 3D (series)|projects]] & the various proposals on sub-series and whatnot. WIP project at bottom of userpage.{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:23, April 5, 2024 (CST)
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| == Is Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island also a Super Mario series game? ==
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| {{talk}}
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| We know that it's obviously a Yoshi game starring Mario, but when I saw a [[:File:Mario Day 2023 NSO.jpg|particular image]], I began to wonder if it could also count as a ''Super Mario'' platforming game. The ''Super Mario Advance'' games also has ''Super Mario'' 2D sidescrollers for the Game Boy Advance, except the third game ''[[Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3]]'' is a remake of ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''. Both the original and remake have "''Super Mario''" in their name, so it's definitely part of the ''Super Mario'' brand, but is it linked to the ''Super Mario'' sidescrolling platformers? The Japanese name also has "''Super Mario''" (スーパーマリオ, ''Sūpā Mario'') as the first part of the title, followed by ''Yoshi's Island'' (ヨッシーアイランド, ''Yosshī Airando''). [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 11:37, October 27, 2023 (EDT)
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| :It was actually subtitled ''Super Mario Bros. 5'' in development. So while it may or may not be a ''Super Mario'' game, it absolutely is a ''Super Mario '''Bros.''''' game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:26, October 27, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::Said image also lists Super Mario Advance 4, which is in the "Ports, remakes, and compilations" section, NOT the Main Games section. We'd have to add that as well. But then we'd have to deal with everything else in that section. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 09:39, January 31, 2024 (CST)
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| == Link issues ==
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| Link 4 is broken, and links 5, 8, and 9 are the same. I personally lack the technical knowhow to be able to fix this so I figured I'd alert other people on the wiki.{{unsigned|66.30.148.99}}
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| :Can you be more specific? What and where is link 4 etc? {{User:Swallow/sig}} 20:20, November 9, 2023 (EST)
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| ::They're referring to the references, they're fixed now. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 20:21, November 9, 2023 (EST)
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| == Main series ==
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| I included ports in the Main series section, which where officially confirmed as part of it on the Super Mario Bros. - 35th Anniversary page. But where should games like Super Mario 64 DS and Super Mario All-Stars be? -[[User:Big Super Mario Fan|Big Super Mario Fan]] ([[User talk:Big Super Mario Fan|talk]]) 02:18, May 13, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Uh, source? [[:File:SuperMarioBros35thAnniversary - Game Collection.jpg|This image with all the Japanese releases of Super Mario games]] certainly includes no remakes, ports or collections, and neither do these [[Super Mario Bros. 35th Anniversary#Games|"This is MY Mario" images]]. [[Gallery:Super Mario Bros. 35th Anniversary#History of Mario|History of Mario]] includes several games from the ''entire Super Mario franchise'', including ''Mario Kart'' and ''Mario Party'', and similarly, [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/history/index.html the History page on the official Mario Portal] includes ALL titles from the entire ''Super Mario'' franchise; so those say nothing. And [https://mario.nintendo.com/history/ the History page on the official ''Super Mario'' website] only includes the three most recent rereleases, so I'm not sure if that counts either. Even then, it's better safe to keep ports/rereleases separate from mainline titles anyway. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:49, May 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Well...*Stares at NSMBUDX in the first picture linked* [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 08:55, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Consider Mario Bros. to be related to the Super Mario series ==
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|
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|4-3|Consider as related}}
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| ''Mario Bros.'' has a lot of relevance when it comes the ''Super Mario'' series. In ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', there's an entire 2 Player Game mode dedicated to a remake of it. ''Super Mario 3D World'' has the ''Luigi Bros.'' game included in it. And the entire ''Super Mario Advance'' series has a remake of it. The fact that it serves as a consistent minigame in a couple of ''Super Mario'' games makes it pretty significant to the series. And while not the sole reason of me suggesting this, ''Mario Bros.'' is relevant for bringing in coins, POW Blocks, and Shellcreepers who serve as early Koopa Troopas, thus making it historically relevant to the series. This proposal aims to consider this game as a [[Super Mario (series)#Related games|related entry]] to the series, mainly because it is a consistent minigame that appears in some of these games. You could argue similar rules for ''Donkey Kong'' with it being referenced in ''Odyssey'', but ''DK'' is never recreated as a minigame in these games, so I don't think it counts.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|TheUndescribableGhost}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': June 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT
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| ====Support====
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| #{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dduvx-dEySY ''Mario Bros.'', where are you?!]
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} Makes sense to me. Per proposal.
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal.
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| #{{user|MegaBowser64}} Perpro posal. This is quite a reasonable request. Mario Bros. is, in fact, fairly closely related to the Super Mario series. Now, I don't necessarily agree on related games coverage on series pages at all, but that's not what this proposal's about. If we want to crack down on related games sections, we'll make a separate proposal for it.
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| <s>#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.</s>
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| ====Oppose====
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| #{{User|DrippingYellow}} Seems kind of redundant. ''Mario Bros.'' is already the progenitor for the entire ''Super Mario'' series, so it's kind of a given that it's related. No point in having a listing for the game that just states it's recreated in the Advance series and modified into ''Luigi Bros.'' for ''Super Mario 3D World'', when that's already mentioned in the descriptions for the relevant games. If we want to describe how concepts from Mario Bros. were re-used for ''Super Mario Bros.'', shouldn't we be putting that in a conception/development history section or something, rather than shoving it under the blanket of "Related games"?
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| #{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per DrippingYellow.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per DrippingYellow and the comments, let's try to stop the related games section from spiralling and losing focus.
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| ====Comments====
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| Somewhat related, I've honestly kinda started to question the point of listing "related games" on series pages at all, it mostly just feels like a way to insert speculation about what games count. But I suppose there's cases like Yoshi's Island, where we have official word about its connection to the series despite it not being officially part of it. Even if there is some merit to listing them, they absolutely shouldn't count in the number of installments in the infobox (though I actually have no idea where the current number of "50" comes from, adding the other listed numbers comes to 53). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:12, May 31, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Maybe a "related game" only counts as half a game? {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:53, June 5, 2024 (EDT)
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| You know, I kind of agree with Hewer here. "Related games" is an extremely broad label that in theory could encompass literally any platforming game starring Mario characters. However, in this article in particular, the "related games" sections is limited to just spin-offs of the mainline games, and ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic|Doki Doki Panic]]'' as well for some reason. While a good selection that helps the article in my eyes, it seems kind of arbitrary in the context of just "related games". Depending on how this proposal swings, I think we should consider converting the section into a "Spin-offs" section, and kick Doki Doki Panic off the list (since it's relevance to the mainline Mario games is already sufficiently covered in the SMB2 description). [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 17:47, June 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Right now this wiki uses the term "spin-off" on series pages to describe [[Wario World]] (which is not a [[Wario Land (series)|Wario Land]] game), the [[Mario & Sonic (series)|Mario & Sonic]] arcade games (which are Mario & Sonic games), and [[Yoshi Touch & Go]] (which is not a [[Yoshi's Island (series)|Yoshi's Island]] game). I think this wiki needs more consistent terminology for series in general, not just for "related games". {{User:Dive Rocket Launcher/sig}} 04:21, June 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| {{@|Hewer}} {{@|DrippingYellow}},
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| I don't disagree with you in that "Related games" is vague and possibly should be removed, but... that's not what this proposal's about? This proposal is to add Mario Bros. as a related game to the Super Mario series page under the current definition and enforcement of related games. Most of the related games on this page are spinoffs, but there's also Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic, a game that had no predecessors and is instead included for its effect on a later game. Mario Bros. is a game with one predecessor and paved the way for Super Mario Bros. for introducing most of what makes Mario, well, Mario. With this in mind, I don't think it would be unreasonable to add it to the list for the time being. Now, if a proposal does get made to decide the fate of the Related games section, obviously all of this would change, but for now it's just not relevant, and making the argument of "Well, the related games lists are bad, we should start cracking down on them by not adding any new games to the lists" doesn't really make sense. [[File:Bowsersm64.png|33px]] [[User:MegaBowser64|MegaBowser64]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) [[File:BowserNSMBU.png|35px]] 06:04, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I'd argue that it is relevant, since adding Mario Bros. to the list would signify more of a broadening in the already vague meaning of "related game" that I'd rather we do without. At the very least, every related game currently listed has some very direct link to a game in the Super Mario series (SMB Special and 35 reusing SMB1 assets, Yoshi's Island and Wario Land being billed as sequels to Mario World and Mario Land 2 respectively in their titles, Doki Doki Panic being Mario 2, Luigi U being asset-reusing DLC for Mario U, and Treasure Tracker being an expansion of 3D World's Captain Toad levels), so Mario Bros. sticks out in that regard. This was the same argument used higher up on this page to reject Super Princess Peach and Super Paper Mario as related games, and like Mario Bros., they also shared things like platforming gameplay and pipes. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:01, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| :The reason I made this proposal is mainly because of how ''MB'' is a consistent minigame in various ''Super Mario'' series games, rather than it paving the way for the entire series. I do agree with some of the points the oppositions makes though on how we should treat related games; we never had a set standard. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 13:13, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Should ''Donkey Kong'' and ''Mario Bros.'' be added? ==
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| I've always considered those games part of the mainline series because they have a lot of relevance to the mainline series. ''Donkey Kong'' was the first ever Mario game and ''Mario Bros.'' introduced some more well-known elements of the ''Super Mario'' series, and they play a big part in the series. Do they count or are they just a small part of the franchise?
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| [[User:Its-A-Me-Austin|Its-A-Me-Austin]] ([[User talk:Its-A-Me-Austin|talk]]) 20:17, June 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Different part of the franchise. The ''Super Mario'' series of platformers is made up specifically of games with ''Super Mario'' in the title. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:00, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :[[#Consider Mario Bros. to be related to the Super Mario series|There already was a proposal about considering ''Mario Bros.'' as ''related'' to this series not too long ago, right above this very section.]] {{User:Arend/sig}} 01:33, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
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