Editing Talk:Super Bowser

==Include information on all of Bowser's Giant forms==
{{TPP}}

<s>This will probably go down in flames, but I have to make a stand.</s>

Okay, the way we are handling things here just doesn't make sense to me. We have [[Giant Bowser|two]] [[Super Bowser|articles]] for what is really the same form: Bowser, but giant. Super Bowser should cover information on all occasions in which Bowser has a significant size change within a given game. Why are things the way they are? Well, Super Bowser (as we now know is his his official name) has been a touchy subject in the past. There are [[Talk:Giant Bowser#Merge Giant Bowser to Bowser|three]] [[Talk:Bowser#Make an article for Giant Bowser of Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story|prop]][[Talk:Giant Bowser#Change this article's name and coverage or delete|osals]] about what to do with it. To compress the information, here are the opposing arguments along with my counterarguments.

''"Becoming large isn't a different form. It's the same thing as Bowser, only bigger."''

<font color=green>''"Tell that to [[Super Mario]]. It's Mario, but bigger. Of course, he has new abilities (smashing blocks), but Super Bowser uses different attacks from normal Bowser as well."''</font>

''"Bowser's size changes a lot in and between games. It's pretty much an inherent ability of his by now."''

<font color=green>''"That's just another reason to give it an article. [[Jump]]ing is just one of Mario's abilities. So is [[crouch]]ing. And [[backflip]]ping. Those all have articles. So do Mario's forms, like [[Fire Mario]]. They're all things Mario does. Becoming giant is something Bowser does. And I don't want to talk about his fluctuating size. Only games where we see him at one size and then at another would be covered. (Except modest changes, such as in ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'')"''</font>

''"Bowser grows using many different methods. For example, in the NSMB series, he is enlarged with magic. But in M&L:DT, he eats loads of meat."''

<font color=green>''"This is true. But is it really relevant? He ends up roughly the same giant size no matter the method. They're different games. Fire Mario had white overalls in ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'', but we don't call it a different form just because they're red in the newer games.''"''</font>

''"Super Bowser is a name found only in NSMB guides, so it follows that it only applies to them."''

<font color=green>''"Okay, this is actually a pretty good argument. <s>But we have [[Giant Bowser]], to stay consistent with [[Giant Luigi]]. Giant Bowser is a conjectural name. If anything, that article should be merged here. And at that point, it seems like we might as well just take every other growth too.</s> Okay, not my best argument. I'll depend on my other counterarguments to outweigh this one."''</font>

One last thing: think of our readers. After all, that's who we're writing this wiki for. I would imagine casual fans would be confused as to why there is two articles for the form they likely know as Giant Bowser (I'm not saying we should move the article. Super Bowser is still the official name). From a casual standpoint, it makes way more sense to just cover the all giant forms in one article. And if you want to look at it from a professional standpoint, look above.

To be absolutely clear, here is a list of the games the article would cover should this proposal pass:

*''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]''
*''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]''
*''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]''
*''[[New Super Mario Bros. 2]]''
*''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]''
*''[[Mario Party 5]]''
*''[[Paper Mario]]''
*''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]''
*''[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]]''
*''[[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]]''
*''[[Mario & Luigi: Dream Team]]''
*''[[Super Princess Peach]]''
*''[[Yoshi's Island DS]]''
*''[[Yoshi's New Island]]''

'''Proposer''': {{User|Ultimate Mr. L}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 1, 2018, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Ultimate Mr. L}} Per the man in green up there.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} {{tem|Part conjecture}} and [[Mariowiki:Good writing|Everything but the kitchen sink]] exist for a reason, I'd say this makes the most sense to do.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per all.

===Oppose===

===Comments===
Even if this fails, I still think something should be done about Giant Bowser, just because of the conjectural name.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 20:50, 17 July 2018 (EDT)
:At this current moment, I can nether support or oppose. Only if there was new information since the proposal would it be easier. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 22:26, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

'''@Doc''' How come you mentioned Everything but the kitchen sink in your vote? Having read it, it relates to this issue, but it doesn't look like it supports this argument.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 10:25, 18 July 2018 (EDT)
:It's against things that are superficially and incidentally similar, like having several paragraphs regarding "Toddler Terrors of Time Travel" in the Baby Mario article instead of a cursory mention. This is more of a deliberately-recurring theme than what is cautioned against there. You aren't asking for a section related to "Mario and the Beanstalk" or anything like that, after all. This is primarily about Bowser getting gigantic for a final boss, which is a valid theme in many games. The only real exception I see here are the TTYD and BiS parts, but they still seem to be more than incidental, particularly the latter. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:27, 20 July 2018 (EDT)
::TTYD could be seen as an incidental transformation, given that Bowser's size continues increasing incrementally rather than simply shooting up to what has become the standard Super Bowser size. Not arguing not cover it, just pointing that out.
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:40, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

Looking at ''Paper Mario'''s final battle, Bowser's size increase isn't a whole lot, whereas Super Bowser is usually much bigger. In fact, Super Bowser's size actually pretty consistent between games. I'm not sure whether the article should cover PM.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:19, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
:The game labels the powered-up Bowser as simply "Bowser", so I'd say no. Then again, ''Super Princess Peach'' doesn't use Super Bowser either. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:22, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
::''Super Princess Peach'' just labels it "Bowser 2", which I don't think is meant to be taken as the actual name, it's just because normal Bowser already occupied the name "Bowser" and they probably forgot to name it Giant/Super Bowser or something. It's at least approximately the same size as other appearances, so I think we should cover that one.
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 14:03, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Include information on all of Bowser's Giant forms==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|6-0|include information}}
 <s>This will probably go down in flames, but I have to make a stand.</s>
@@ Line 49: / Line 49: @@
 #{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per proposal.
 #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per all.
-#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|rollerC}} Per all.
 ===Oppose===
@@ Line 68: / Line 66: @@
 {{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:19, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
 :The game labels the powered-up Bowser as simply "Bowser", so I'd say no. Then again, ''Super Princess Peach'' doesn't use Super Bowser either. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:22, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
-::''Super Princess Peach'' just labels it "Bowser 2", which I don't think is meant to be taken as the actual name, it's just because normal Bowser already occupied the name "Bowser" and they probably forgot to name it Giant/Super Bowser or something. It's at least approximately the same size as other appearances, so I think we should cover that one, but ''Paper Mario'''s is only around double his usual size, if that. Same situation as ''New Super Mario Bros.'' and ''Super Mario 3D Land''. Yes, he's bigger, but it's too small a change to be Super Bowser, who is probably around ten times the regular size.
+::''Super Princess Peach'' just labels it "Bowser 2", which I don't think is meant to be taken as the actual name, it's just because normal Bowser already occupied the name "Bowser" and they probably forgot to name it Giant/Super Bowser or something. It's at least approximately the same size as other appearances, so I think we should cover that one.
 ::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 14:03, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
-:::Um... I believe PM Bigger Bowser is about the same size of Big Bowser of SMM(fN3DS). So, take this into consideration. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 14:13, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
-::::You are correct, YSSM. Are you suggesting a second article be created? Because I think that would be confusing. Bowser's Size section can cover it.
-::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 14:16, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
-:::::If it was SMM alone, there would be no need to consider creating another article (I believe there's a proposal on this) with the Shelmet being an exception for a long time due to them being a new power-up in the game, which after my proposal, they became more about the shells in general. Also, I am saying wherever you put one of those Bigger Bowser, you put the other. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 14:26, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
-::::::I've mentioned this in the other proposal, but ''Super Princess Peach'''s "Bowser 2" is just "Koopa" in the Japanese version. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:00, 28 July 2018 (EDT)
-::::::I say in the proposal that modest size changes shouldn't be covered, so I think that applies to PM. And TTYD doesn't seem as large as Super Bowser normally is. So even though I listed those in the proposal, they conflict with my reasoning.
-::::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 15:43, 1 August 2018 (EDT)
-== Other appearances ==
-I think this article could use an "Other appearances" section. I've been seeing users adding content for versions of Bowser that are not Super Bowser, such as ''Paper Mario'' and ''Super Mario Maker''. An Other appearances section could cover those lesser transformation, basically explaining that they are not Super Bowser, but are still related due to the size change. It could also cover the giant Dry Bowser seen in ''Mario Party 10'' and other transformations like it.<br>
-Another option is to use an idea {{User|Yoshi the SSM}} touched on and create an entirely separate article for these forms, under the name '''Big Bowser'''. I'll ask Yoshi the SSM where the name came from, to verify that it is official. I don't think this is ready for a full proposal, so I'd like to see other users' thoughts.<br>
-{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:49, 2 December 2018 (EST)
-:Probably not. I think [[Bowser#Size]] works better. It could be expanded upon to include series where "Super Bowser" isn't named. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 16:48, 3 December 2018 (EST)
-== Name ==
-Okay, so it appears there have some new developments in my absence. The article is currently named '''Super Bowser''' (source: ''NSMB'' Prima guides). However, LinkTheLefty found the name '''Giant Bowser''' in the ''Yoshi's Island DS'' Player's Guide. Another user (the one who put the {{tem|rename)) template on the page) claimed that the "giant battle guide" from ''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey'' referred to him as Giant Bowser, though I have no way to verify this (I know he definitely wasn't called that in the original). If the ''BIS:BJJ'' info is false, is there still grounds for a move due to the ''YIDS'' guide?<br>
-{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 16:06, October 5, 2019 (EDT)
-== Move to Giant Bowser ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-0}}
-The article should be moved to Giant Bowser.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Octoling Rendezvous}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': May 29, 2020, 23:59 GMT
-====Support====
-#{{User|Octoling Rendezvous}} Giant Bowser makes more sense because it is a giant version of Bowser, he did not eat a Super Mushroom, and the name Super Bowser would be more fitting in [[Bowser]]'s final battle in ''[[Super Mario 64]]''.
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Not sure what ''Super Mario 64'' has to do with anything since Bowser doesn't change size or even appearance in ''Super Mario 64 DS'', but "Giant Bowser" is a self-explanatory name used in a Nintendo Player's Guide (for ''Yoshi's Island DS'') and is in-game (technically via the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series and apparently in ''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey'').
-#{{User|Duckfan77}} Per all.
-#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
-#{{User|Alex95}} - Per LinkTheLefty and Ultimate Mr. L above.
-#{{User|Scrooge200}} This article's title always bugged me. I'd be glad to move it to what most people who have played ''BIS'' will actually look for.
-#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
-#{{User|PinkYoshiFan}} Per all.
-====Oppose====
-====Comments====
-The deadline is May 29. Should it be passed? Or in that time zone is it not time yet?[[User:Duckfan77|Duckfan77]] ([[User talk:Duckfan77|talk]]) 09:36, May 30, 2020 (EDT)
-OMG.  Thanks. {{User:Bowser201/sig}} 09:42, May 30, 2020 (EDT)
-Your welcome. Oh I am stupid, it says the current time in GMT.[[User:Duckfan77|Duckfan77]] ([[User talk:Duckfan77|talk]]) 09:47, May 30, 2020 (EDT)