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| ==Merge to [[Big Blooper]]== | | ==Merge to [[Big Blooper]]== |
| {{settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|5-11|Do not merge}}
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| Considering our merge of [[Chomp Shark]] to [[Big Chain Chomp]] as well as [[Anti Guy]] to [[Black Shy Guy]] in the semi-recent past, it makes sense to go ahead and merge this to [[Big Blooper]], since it too has no distinguishing characteristics aside from spawning flunkies (a common RPG boss trait). The lang-of-orig name here is simply "Big Blooper;" contrast the SPM "Big Blooper" boss whose naming situation is more similar to [[King Bob-omb]] being originally localized as "the Big Bob-omb," its lang-of-origin name calls it a "king." Also contrast the "Big" bosses from the ''Yoshi'' games, who have characteristics separate from their respective "big" enemies (and "[[Big Piranha Plant]]" and "[[Naval Piranha|Big Piranha Plant]]" were explicitly listed separately by the ''Smash Bros.'' list). | | Considering our merge of [[Chomp Shark]] to [[Big Chain Chomp]] as well as [[Anti Guy]] to [[Black Shy Guy]] in the semi-recent past, it makes sense to go ahead and merge this to [[Big Blooper]], since it too has no distinguishing characteristics aside from spawning flunkies (a common RPG boss trait). The lang-of-orig name here is simply "Big Blooper;" contrast the SPM "Big Blooper" boss whose naming situation is more similar to [[King Bob-omb]] being originally localized as "the Big Bob-omb," its lang-of-origin name calls it a "king." Also contrast the "Big" bosses from the ''Yoshi'' games, who have characteristics separate from their respective "big" enemies (and "[[Big Piranha Plant]]" and "[[Naval Piranha|Big Piranha Plant]]" were explicitly listed separately by the ''Smash Bros.'' list). |
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> |
| '''Deadline''': <s>September 8, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> September 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT | | '''Deadline''': September 8, 2024, 23:59 GMT |
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| ====Support==== | | ====Support==== |
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| #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal. Design-wise, it is literally just a big Blooper with no other special attributes (compare [[:File:PaperMarioBlooper.png|regular Bloopers]] to the [[:File:PM Super Blooper idle.gif|Super Blooper sprite]]). To be fair, the [[:File:PM Electro Blooper idle.gif|Electro Blooper]] also looks the same, but it has electrical properties to distinguish itself. | | #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal. Design-wise, it is literally just a big Blooper with no other special attributes (compare [[:File:PaperMarioBlooper.png|regular Bloopers]] to the [[:File:PM Super Blooper idle.gif|Super Blooper sprite]]). To be fair, the [[:File:PM Electro Blooper idle.gif|Electro Blooper]] also looks the same, but it has electrical properties to distinguish itself. |
| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all and out of spite towards TTYD Blooper being split despite nothing special about it. | | #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all and out of spite towards TTYD Blooper being split despite nothing special about it. |
| #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Similar size, has the exact appearance of a large Blooper, identical Japanese name. Per all.
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| ====Oppose==== | | ====Oppose==== |
| #{{user|Technetium}} I was honestly on the fence about this despite my TTYD Blooper proposal, but as I've been going through Super Mario-kun I can now confirm that Super Blooper is a character there, with it even being shown to have 70 HP like in the game. While I understand that other bosses that are random members of a species are made into more distinct characters in -kun and don't get their own pages, it is very explicit here that this is meant to be the same Super Blooper as in PM64, not just any random Big Blooper. If Super Blooper is merged into Big Blooper, with its -kun coverage separated into its own section, it could confuse readers into not realizing they're meant to represent the same character / boss. But yeah, I think the fact the same boss appears elsewhere as a character is a reason why its page should remain split. | | #{{user|Technetium}} I was honestly on the fence about this despite my TTYD Blooper proposal, but as I've been going through Super Mario-kun I can now confirm that Super Blooper is a character there (it has to be Super Blooper specifically because it is portrayed with no elemental abilities and as a mother with two Blooper babies (like the two the boss summons, albeit I think one is a husband in this adaptation for humor - still much smaller like the Blooper baby and inspired by it). I will be uploading the photo of it shortly, but yeah, I think the fact the same boss appears elsewhere as a character is a reason why its page should remain split. |
| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Technetium. A character appearing in multiple pieces of media, remakes aside, gives it a little more credence for having its own article, even if it's a generic species representative (and that's more debatable in this case).
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| #{{User|Axii}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Technetium. We were kinda on the fence, but the Super Mario-kun appearance, to us, at least, seals the idea that Super Blooper is more distinct than any usual Big Blooper.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all, and my previous stance.
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| #{{User|Waddle Dingus}} Per all.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Technetium
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
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| #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Considering the -kun point of Tech's, the recent TTYD Blooper split, and the boss status... yeah, no.
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| #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Jude da Dude}} Technetium does have a point there.
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| ====Comments==== | | ====Comments==== |
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| ::So? [[Wiggler]] appeared as a singular character in the SMW arc of -kun. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:03, September 1, 2024 (EDT) | | ::So? [[Wiggler]] appeared as a singular character in the SMW arc of -kun. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:03, September 1, 2024 (EDT) |
| :::These appearances are very clearly based on the specific bosses rather than a random member of a species. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 15:04, September 4, 2024 (EDT) | | :::These appearances are very clearly based on the specific bosses rather than a random member of a species. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 15:04, September 4, 2024 (EDT) |
| :::To add on to this, if both the Super Blooper and TTYD Blooper are merged back into the Big Blooper page, then we would be covering these two very different Bloopers (as seen in -kun) in not only the same page, but the same section, making things confusing. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 15:14, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::There's plenty of other instances of "-kun" using random species bosses as characters in specific arcs. Graphic adaptations should ''not'' be the decider on what is and isn't split when dealing with predominantly game-based subjects. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:04, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::Do you have any specific examples along with how they are covered on the wiki? [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:17, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::In many cases, all their appearances have not been yet added to the wiki. But for example, Petey Piranha is portrayed as a female (or at least effeminate) "mother" figure in the PiT adaptation. Similarly, Magikoopa was a singular character as far back as the SMW arc before the modern idea of "Kamek" was introduced. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:07, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::Petey Piranha is already a distinct character to begin with though - not really what I'm talking about here. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:11, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::I can't recall any specific examples as I am not intimately familiar with ''-kun'', but I know I've seen them and this principle is hardly unique to ''-kun'' anyways. Saying this can't be Big Blooper because a second-party manga adaptation gave it big lips is honestly a really silly argument. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:17, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::Maybe you're right, this argument is shaky at best. I guess I'm just trying to find anything to explain why I think this should stay split, something more than just "it feels right" / I got overly excited over finding this out earlier and rushed right over here. (I do stand by the -kun coverage getting confusing if TTYD Blooper is merged back in though, but that's irrelevant for right now, and I'll have my arguments for TTYD Blooper if another proposal happens). I guess it 1. Ultimately feels a bit odd to do this merge when it was one of the reasons for TTYD Blooper getting split (key word: one) and 2. why was it split to begin with? Was it the name being unique in English? If that is the case, I'd like to check if "English name but not Japanese name is unique so the page should be split" applies currently elsewhere on the wiki, as I'd like there to be consistency one way or another. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:36, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::It was split to begin with because we didn't ''have'' a "Big Blooper" general article until early 2020 - many years after this article was made in the wiki's stone age. It still being a separate article is merely a relic of that period. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:38, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::I more so mean the proposal from 2022 on the Big Blooper page, which decided to only merge TTYD Blooper. Reading through that, though, it brings up the interesting point about Blooper Nannies, hmm... spawning babies is still a unique feature for a Big Blooper to have that others don't, RPG mechanics aside. Either way, I do think Waluigi Time's vote better puts into words what I was trying to say. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:44, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::The same game had Fuzzies capable of leeching and fission, so I'm not too concerned about that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:20, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::@Opposition: So, your whole thing for opposing is because of -kun saying it's a specific character? -Kun does its own thing all the time and the Japanese name makes it clear this calamari is a regular Big Blooper. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:02, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::The argument is that it is specifically this boss down to the HP value, not a random species representative, and the fact this boss appears in more than one piece of media makes it more worthy of having its own page. Merging back with Big Blooper could make it less clear that this Big Blooper in -kun is specifically the PM64 boss, as the sections would be split up. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:18, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::::I'd like to direct you to [[Mega Mole]]'s ''-kun'' section. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:30, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::::While I have no issues on how this article is organized, there was never "a" Monty Mole in the games (if that makes sense) and it remains irrelevant to this discussion. Now, if Super Blooper was merged back in, would the one in -kun be a random Big Blooper or the particular Big Blooper from PM64? It would have to be described as the latter, which sets Super Blooper apart from the other random Big Bloopers on the page. When a single Big Blooper is discussed twice on the same page, it doesn't really seem much like any old random Big Blooper anymore, does it? I know this all probably makes no sense as I'm not sure how to word it, but what I feel like these species pages should be for non-unique members that could theoretically be the same, I guess. I don't know. Also, there are specific characters named say Goomba that are unique characters in Mario Party Advance, but they're fine as is just having sections because they only need the one section for the one game they appear in. It just gets confusing when the same character / boss of a species appears twice or more. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:10, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::::::It doesn't need to be. The obvious solution would be
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| :::::::::::::::::"In the ''Paper Mario'' adaptation, the Super Blooper is portrayed as a singular character, specifically as a female and the husband of Electro-Blooper. (cont)"
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| :::::::::::::::::"In the ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' adaptation, the Blooper from the game appears in the sewers, where it is preparing for a date. (cont)"
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| :::::::::::::::::That's not hard for any reader to understand. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:30, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::::::Fair. I still think it's odd to essentially have subjects that I (at least) believe to be distinct lumped into a page meant for "random" (for lack of a better term) members of a species, though. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:50, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::::::::Was never an issue for [[Wiggler]]. It all depends on the game/storyline's needs for how it's characterized. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:02, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::::::::Agreed, the fact that this squid appeared in -Kun is irrelevant. It's simply a Big Blooper, nothing more, nothing less. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:48, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Opposition I still don't understand why it being given big lips in a couple pages of a gag manga should be reason to split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:41, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| :The context of the appearance doesn't matter, but simply the fact that this boss explicitly appears elsewhere gives more basis for it having its own article. It just makes more sense to me for the two Big Bloopers who are meant to be the same subject to have their own page rather than mixed in with other random Big Bloopers. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 13:54, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::And [[Mega Mole]] is treated as a distinct individual character several times in -kun, different each time, and we don't split them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:46, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::Again, there are many Mega Moles that are never distinguished between each other, while this is a specific boss. We can't know if a certain Mega Mole in the manga matches with any given one from the game, but we know that for Super Blooper these are representations of the same entity. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 14:51, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::And Goombario doesn't treat Super Blooper as an individual in the game, but one of many, so it's the same situation. The fact you only ''see'' one doesn't mean that there only ''is'' one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:26, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::Goombario talks the same way about [[Electro Blooper]], yet no one has an issue with considering the Electro Blooper in -kun the same as the boss in PM64. What are the tattles like in Japanese, since that is what -kun is based off? And even if Goombario still doesn't consider either boss an individual, this feels like overthinking / contrived when the authorial intent is clearly demonstrated with the same boss stats being shown. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:05, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::My point is a third-party gag manga should not be treated as the ultimate authority (or any authority at all, for that matter) on what should be split or merged. That's just silly. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:00, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::An officially licensed manga. The purpose of this wiki is to cover everything official from the Mario franchise. If Super Blooper appeared in some other piece of licensed media, would you change your mind on this? Because my point remains that the fact it appears beyond just PM64 is important, not what it appeared in. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:11, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::No? Its origin treats it simply as a giant Blooper, and that too is how we should treat it - like any other giant Blooper (not, for instance, like Gooper Blooper, who is explicitly ''Boss'' Gesso in Japan). If the giant Buzzy Beetle from ''Sticker Star'' appeared in an adaptation, it would simply also go on the Big Buzzy Beetle page - where it belongs. Same goes for things like Iggy's large Chain Chomp. ''-kun'' has a habit of assigning goofy roles to various entities, and they shouldn't be taken at face value as defining aspects of them outside of those appearances. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:14, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| So, how come nobody's brought up Raphael the Raven yet? Specifically his appearance as a regular enemy in Yoshi's New Island. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:56, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Its never been referred to as Raphael in known material, and is defeated the same as a normal Raven. It seems to me that Raven is more or less simply a larger Raven that is similar to Raphael. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 15:06, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::"Big Kyuchan" is the name of Raphael in Japanese as well as this entity. It needn't be given the overly flowery English name - especially since YNI ''had'' no English guidebooks. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:26, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::[[Panser]]s and [[Volcano Lotus|Volcano Loti]] share Japanese names, yet we don't merge them. The only difference here is that the ravens appear similar. Plus, "Big Kyuchan" translates to Big Raven, which is entirely what that entity is, a big Raven. Not to mention the name comes from internal data, which is not normally seen in gameplay and can also be incorrectly named, with a perfect example being the [[Luigi Block]]. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 16:24, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::I suggest you look at the proposal that merged them. (basically, that internal data that calls back to the SMW2 boss the only word that ''exists'' on that subject, so one piece of evidence supports them being the same and ''nothing'' supports them being different - and besides, the same games feature [[Tap-Tap the Golden]] as an individual enemy, despite being otherwise portrayed similar to the games' bosses; also, the "big" in the file names, to my knowledge, is only used among enemies that already had "biggu" in their Japanese names, being Raph, Chomp Shark, the Blarggs, and Tap-Golden; the other "big" counterpart enemies instead use "mega" in their file names). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:00, September 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ==Big Squiddy article go away==
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| :So, the reason why this failed was because of -kun? Sorry, but this giant piece of calamari is literally no different than a regular Big Blooper. The fact that it appears as a separate character means absolutely nothing. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:01, September 18, 2024 (EDT)
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