Editing Talk:Spiny Shell (red)

==There is no spiny shell in TTYD==
Is that picture fanmade or beta? because im pretty sure theres no spiny shells in paper mario.
{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}

There is, I believe one of the Spinies attacks a like the Koopas where they go in their shell. I will have to check that out.{{User:YoshiGo99/sig}}

They were used in SPM but the sprite was under PM:TTYD. I'd just leave it alone.{{User:YoshiGo99/sig}}

== Move to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (Spiny)}} and move [[Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)|Spiny Shell (''Mario Kart'')]] to this title ==

{{TPP}}
Well, where do I start? First of all, the ''Mario Kart'' Spiny Shells <ins>unambiguously</ins> appear in more games '''''and''''' are officially referred to as such in practically ''all'' of the games it appears in. Second, these shells only unambiguously appear (not just as protection for [[Spiny|Spinies]]) as items in [[Super Mario Strikers|both]] ''[[Mario Strikers (series)|Mario Strikers]]'' [[Mario Strikers Charged|games]], and as obstacles in the minigames [[Ice Rink Risk]] and [[Crate and Peril]]. That's it. That said, given [[Special Attack (Bowser)|this precedent]], I propose that we switch the page that gets the identifuer, as described in the header.

'''Proposer:''' {{user|Toadette the Achiever}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' November 27, 2017, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per proposal. It is also in Super Mario Maker, but that's not going to help oppose it.
#{{User|Lcrossmk8}} Per proposal and per all. I thought about this the first time I went up onto the [[Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)]] page. It is the definitive Spiny Shell, and I think it deserves to be in the main bluelight (See what I did there? :)).
#{{User|Astro-Lanceur}}Make '''MUCH MORE SENCE'''

===Oppose===
#{{User|Alex95}} - The [[Spiny]]'s shell appears more frequently and have been around longer. Because of it being a part of the Spiny enemy, it makes more sense to leave it as is. The ''Mario Kart'' Spiny Shell seems to go by two names, both of which are used by a different item ([[Spiny Shell]] and [[Blue Shell]]). I believe the (''Mario Kart'') identifier would be best as the Spiked Blue Shell has mainly appeared in ''Mario Kart'' whereas the other shells have been in multiple games.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per Alex, and also the fact that this is from the "main" series.
#{{user|Mario jc}} While the ''Mario Kart'' Spiny Shell may be more well known than the regular Spiny Shell, it's a variant of it, whereas the latter is about a Spiny's shell in general, hence the lack of an identifier. I also don't think "(Spiny)" is a suitable identifier at all, since it can also refer to the ''Mario Kart'' Spiny Shell, also from a Spiny.
#{{user|Chat Man}} Per all
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Mario jc.
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all, and Mario jc's and my comments.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Yes, my first oppose vote ever.  While I do think that this page should be renamed, not like this.  I think instead that we move this to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (red)}} and the other one to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (blue)}}.  We change this to a disambiguation page.  If we agree to do this, I'll change my vote.

===Comments===
@Alex95: "The Spiny's shell appears more frequently" &ndash; Yes, it does, but with a very generic purpose that, for the most part, can quite easily be covered on the Spiny article. It only unambiguously appears as a standalone object in '''four''' games&ndash;five if you count ''[[Mario Party: The Top 100]]''&ndash;none of which are major appearances. The blue Spiny Shell, on the other hand, has appeared in '''ten''' games&ndash;twelve if you count the SSB4 cross-ports as separate games ''and'' if you count ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' (plus a small reference in ''[[Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle]]'')&ndash;'''''and''''' has a more clear-cut, definitive purpose: attacking the "leader". Remember that there is a difference between "generic" and "appears in many games, therefore precedence". {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 15:24, 13 November 2017 (EST)
:They may have a similar purpose as the [[Green Shell]] in the main ''Super Mario'' games, but their appearance and attributes differ. You can't jump on them, and you can't pick them up in games with that function. Because of this and the shell's relation to its frequent wearer (Have you seen a Blue Para-Spiny?), it should remain. The Blue Spiked Shell is mainly a ''Mario Kart'' item, with some exceptions, whereas the Spiny's shell is more versatile and appears in several games. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:35, 13 November 2017 (EST)
::The Mario Kart one is also definitively not from a Spiny ever since Double Dash, given it has the hexagonal plates that Troopa shells use. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:30, 13 November 2017 (EST)
:::@Doc:The ''Mario Strikers'' series Spiny Shells actually '''''do''''' use a hex pattern. Maybe they should be split? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 17:24, 13 November 2017 (EST)
::::I don't know, they seem to in the original [[Ice Rink Risk]] as well, but only in-game and not official art... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:35, 13 November 2017 (EST)

I don't think "Spiny Shell (Spiny)" is a good classifier for this, as, unlike the "Bowser" in "Special Attack (Bowser)", "Spiny" has multiple meanings in this context (the enemy or the property of the shell) whereas "Bowser" can only refer to one thing. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 20:21, 14 November 2017 (EST)

Wait, if you admit down here that the Spiny's shell appears more frequently, you outright lied in the proposal itself with that whole "unambiguously" thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:42, 14 November 2017 (EST)

@Mario jc: "The ''Mario Kart'' Spiny Shell comes from a Spiny" is '''''NOT''''' true <ins>at all</ins>. Just saying. (We seriously need a pageview gadget.) {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 06:48, 15 November 2017 (EST)
:There ''is'' a "Show preview" button. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:40, 15 November 2017 (EST)
:Then explain how it's '''''NOT''''' true, please. It's clearly in the name and appearance. If you're saying the ''Mario Kart'' Spiny Shell is just a blue Koopa shell with spikes added to it, and the "Spiny" in its name refers to its property and not the enemy, its Japanese name incorporates the Spiny enemy's Japanese name ('''トゲゾー'''こうら '''''Togezō''' Kōra''). It'd be too big of a coincidence for them to give a shell spikes, make it look like a Spiny's shell, ''call'' it a "Spiny Shell", and not intend it to be related to a Spiny. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 00:03, 16 November 2017 (EST)
::Also, prior to ''Double Dash!!'', the shell lacked the hexagon pattern, unlike the other shells, which had a yellow hexagon pattern. Why they changed it for ''Double Dash!!'', I have no idea, but it may have been for frugality to repeatedly edit the same shell base some more, or it may have been another example Gamecube/GBA-era design weirdness that never really got resolved other than the wings disappearing (in appearance but not function). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:22, 16 November 2017 (EST)

I am not sure what I am going to do about my vote (even though it's already there, but I am questioning whether or not due to Alex95's vote). However, when I voted, I wasn't sure Spiny was a good identifier. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:05, 17 November 2017 (EST)

@Astro-Lanceur: Yep, I'm your new grammar professor.  Spell "sense" correctly. -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 17:55, 17 November 2017 (EST)
@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 == Move to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (Spiny)}} and move [[Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)|Spiny Shell (''Mario Kart'')]] to this title ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|blue|cancelled by administrator}}<small>As requested by proposer.</small>
 Well, where do I start? First of all, the ''Mario Kart'' Spiny Shells <ins>unambiguously</ins> appear in more games '''''and''''' are officially referred to as such in practically ''all'' of the games it appears in. Second, these shells only unambiguously appear (not just as protection for [[Spiny|Spinies]]) as items in [[Super Mario Strikers|both]] ''[[Mario Strikers (series)|Mario Strikers]]'' [[Mario Strikers Charged|games]], and as obstacles in the minigames [[Ice Rink Risk]] and [[Crate and Peril]]. That's it. That said, given [[Special Attack (Bowser)|this precedent]], I propose that we switch the page that gets the identifuer, as described in the header.
 '''Proposer:''' {{user|Toadette the Achiever}}<br>
-'''Proposed Deadline:''' November 27, 2017, 23:59 GMT<br>
+'''Deadline:''' November 27, 2017, 23:59 GMT
-'''Date Withdrawn:''' November 20, 2017, 08:16 GMT
 ===Support===
@@ Line 22: / Line 19: @@
 #{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per proposal. It is also in Super Mario Maker, but that's not going to help oppose it.
 #{{User|Lcrossmk8}} Per proposal and per all. I thought about this the first time I went up onto the [[Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)]] page. It is the definitive Spiny Shell, and I think it deserves to be in the main bluelight (See what I did there? :)).
-#{{User|Astro-Lanceur}}Make '''MUCH MORE SENSE'''
+#{{User|Astro-Lanceur}}Make '''MUCH MORE SENCE'''
 ===Oppose===
@@ Line 52: / Line 49: @@
 @Astro-Lanceur: Yep, I'm your new grammar professor.  Spell "sense" correctly. -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 17:55, 17 November 2017 (EST)
-@YoshiFlutterJump: Wow, I never thought of it that way. I'd like to cancel this proposal now. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 23:25, 19 November 2017 (EST)
-:Okay, but I think you'll need to talk to an administrator to cancel it now. -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}} 23:58, 19 November 2017 (EST)
-== Move to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (red)}} and move [[Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)]] to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (blue)}} ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-2|rename}}
-Per my vote in the above proposal.  This title should become a disambiguation page, the content should be moved to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (red)}}, and {{fake link|Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)}} should be moved to {{fake link|Spiny Shell (blue)}}.<br>
-'''Support:''' {{User|YoshiFlutterJump}}<br>
-'''Deadline:''' December 6, 2017, 23:59 GMT
-===Support===
-#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per my proposal and my vote in the above proposal.  I'm pretty sure these subjects are equally popular, hence this should be a disambiguation page.
-#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per proposal. As I have argued before, both are equally popular, and the red Spiny Shells have ''less'' standalone appearances than the blue ones. Plus, we already [[Chap (green)|have]] [[Chap (blue)|precedents]].
-#{{User|Marioguy}} Per Toadette the Achiever.
-#{{User|Lcrossmk8}} Oh...YEAH. This is a great idea right here. I just love it. Per Toadette the Achiever, and per all. Count me in.
-#{{User|Alex95}} - Wasn't fond of the previously proposed identifiers, but they ''are'' both Spiny Shells, so this seems like the better option. Per proposal.
-#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
-#{{User|YoshiStar28}} Yay! That's a great idea. Per all on this case.
-#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
-===Oppose===
-#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Pretty sure the red one has more standalone appearances, and the blue is clearly derivative of the red, ergo the red is the "main" version. Per previous opposition.
-#{{User|Astro-Lanceur}}per doc
-===Comments===
-== Split Spiny Helmet from this article ==
-Should we split Spiny Helmet from this article? They are two completely different things that appear in ''[[Super Mario Maker]]''. You cannot go from a Spiny Shell to a Spiny Helmet. They are two immutable objects. [[User:B700465189a9|B700465189a9]] ([[User talk:B700465189a9|talk]]) 10:29, 3 March 2019 (EST)
-:We'll see how it's depicted in ''Super Mario Maker 2'', but for all intents and purposes, it's an empty Spiny Shell used as a helmet. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:35, 3 March 2019 (EST)
-::From the trailer, Spiny Helmets and Shells are depicted exactly like they are in ''Super Mario Maker''. [[User:B700465189a9|B700465189a9]] ([[User talk:B700465189a9|talk]]) 10:55, 3 March 2019 (EST)
-:::The trailer shows there will be in-game text for object names in the released game, which should be more reliable than the first game's verbal "Spiny". As it stands, Shell Helmet is conjectural. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:05, 3 March 2019 (EST)