Editing Talk:Spiny Cheep Cheep

==(First topic)==
???? There are no Spiny Cheep Cheeps in Super Mario World. (trust me. I have beaten the game completely more than 3 times). The blue fish in the picture are from the Super Mario All Stars version of Super Mario Bros. 3. I don't know what the middle one is from, so I don't really know what I should make the article say. [[User:Red.Tide|Red.Tide]] 21:30, 6 February 2007 (EST)

:I agree on you with the fact that they're not in ''[[Super Mario World]]''... Oh, and that middle sprite is from ''[[Super Mario Land 2: Six Golden Coins]]''. --[[User:YellowYoshi398|YellowYoshi398]] 21:35, 6 February 2007 (EST)

::The blue ones are from Super Mario Bros. 3, not Super Mario World. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

:::Okay, I'll edit it, saying they reappear in Super Mario Land 2. [[User:Red.Tide|Red.Tide]] 21:09, 7 February 2007 (EST)

== Cartoons ==
Did they appear in the Super Mario World cartoons? As it mentioned in the [[Mama Fireplant]] article.{{User:Fg/sig}}
:Yes, but only in the episode "Fire Sale". {{User:Frostyfireyoshi/sig}} 11:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

== Super Mario Land 2 ==
I don't remember seeing those enemies in ''Super Mario Land 2'', only a pufferfish-like enemy that acts differently. Where do Spiny Cheep-Cheeps appear? --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 17:12, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

They don't. [http://www.pimpmynintendo.com/nintendo-sprites/super-mario-land-2-6-golden-coins-sprites/ Right above the second Jaw. It is a pufferfish. New article please! {{User:Paperphailurethemariomonster99/sig}}

:The info has been merged with [[Cheep-Cheep Pufferfish]].

:{{User:YoshiKong/sig}} 22:29, 3 October 2012 (EDT)

== Spiny Fish (Yoshi's Story) ==

Shouldn't that enemy be split? It looks nothing like a Spiny Cheep Cheep and even has its own name. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 20:46, 17 April 2016 (EDT)

==Split [[Spiny Fish]] from [[Spiny Cheep Cheep]]==
{{settledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-1|split}}
As said above, this enemy looks virtually nothing like a [[Spiny Cheep Cheep]]. Its official name is even different, and it implies that this enemy is different altogether from other [[Cheep Cheep]]s. While you could make a case with [[Flopsy Fish]] and [[Cheep Cheep]] being the same, at least Flopsy Fish has the appearance to back it up. Here, the enemy has virtually no resemblance to the subject's article. They probably even have different behaviors as well, as there is no mention of them chasing after Yoshi like how Spiny Cheep Cheeps do.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Baby Luigi}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 2, 2016, 23:59 GMT

===Split===
#{{User|Baby Luigi}}
#{{User|Tails777}} As a guy who's played Yoshi's Story countless many times, I can say that these Spiny Fish don't actually chase Yoshi, they swim back and forth. Also for the record, I'd still back up that Flopsy Fish are different from Cheep-Cheeps, but that's for another discussion. For now, I agree with this proposal.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Per both.
#{{User|AfternoonLight}} Per all 3.
#{{User|LudwigVon}} - Per all.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
#{{User|Reboot}}. Per all.
#{{User|Marioguy}} Per all.
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} [[Mario (franchise)]] and [[Yoshi (series)]] tend to be different series so it shouldn't be surprising if enemies differ greatly and we ended up lumping them into the same page by mistake.

===Keep merged===
# {{User|Niiue}} I don't really think the different English name proves much, considering the inconsistent translations in Yoshi's Story. On top of that, Cheep Cheeps have had ''drastic'' one-time redesigns before, I don't see how this is any different.

===Comments===
Hey, this is actually the result of a [[Talk:Spiny_Fish|previous proposal]] on the Spiny Fish talk page a little while back, and now it seems we're having different users weighing in. The first rationale is that it must be like Gabon/Spike/Mace Penguin (among a few other enemies that lacked consistency in this period), and then research supported that by showing their official names are identical in Japan. I was mostly ambivalent to it at the time since I thought both sides made decent points, but the [http://hit930.sakura.ne.jp/hitjapan/book7/P131129292.JPG same scan] proved useful for classifying the [[:File:CheepCheepYS.png|plain fish]] as [[Cheep Cheep#Yoshi series|Cheep Cheep]] as well as reorganizing the [[Blurp (Yoshi's Story)|Blurps]]. I guess my main concern is that a re-split may devalue that particular source, and those changes could potentially be prone to being undone later on. Another thing to keep in mind is that the behavior difference doesn't apply here: up to that point, Spiny Cheep Cheep were very rare enemies that appeared in only one level and moved about in a generic manner; the same applies to “Spiny Fish”, so I'd say the primary factors are appearance and the label on the old English website (which, to be fair, isn't the [[Snorkle Fish|most]] [[Boo Block|consistent]]). At the very least, the unlocalized ''Togepuku'' (トゲプク) indicates that they are still derivatives of Cheep Cheep (プクプク), which this game's translators appear to have mistaken with the similar Blurp (ブクブク)...which, come to think of it, is probably the ''exact'' reason they weren't called Spiny Cheep Cheep on that site. Sure, their appearance differs, but so does the Cheep Cheep itself. With that in mind, and considering the enemy's relative obscurity, the question then becomes whether or not the designers consciously had '''that''' ''Togepuku'' in mind when creating '''this''' ''Togepuku''. Unfortunately, there's no good way of being certain of that at this juncture, though I'm ''slightly'' inclined to believe it wasn't coincidental. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:10, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
:Well, the Cheep Cheeps in Yoshi's Story still had the same color scheme and a similarish appearance to Cheep Cheeps in their base games. Here, the Spiny Fish barely looks anything like a Spiny Cheep Cheep, aside from the fact that both are fish and both are spiky, and they don't move exactly like Cheep Cheeps. We could still say they're derivatives of Cheep Cheep species and have the same Japanese name, but I'm on the side where their names could be coincidental. Still, you made pretty good points to keep in mind. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 14:21, 20 April 2016 (EDT)

LinktheLefty: It's good that you cited the historical context behind Spiny Fish and Spiny Cheep Cheep, so I guess the point on behavior is moot. As for similar Japanese names, well, it's not the deciding point between a split and a merge, but it makes for good support. I think there isn't a lot of sufficient evidence to say one thing or the other, but assuming the Spiny Fish is a different species from the Spiny Cheep Cheep makes fewer assumptions about consistency and developer intent in my opinion. The Spiny Cheep Cheep is arguably more different from the Spiny Fish than the Cheep Cheep is from the Blurp. Yeah, the 3D renders from Yoshi's Story are weird, but you'd think that if they would make a spiky version of a Cheep Cheep, they'd go with the Blurp design and just add spikes to them. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:45, 20 April 2016 (EDT)
:Cheep Cheep designs have been pretty inconsistent, though. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 19:30, 24 April 2016 (EDT)
::As I said, you'd think they'd just take the Cheep Cheep design in ''Yoshi's Story'' and added spikes to it to make it a Spiny Cheep Cheep. The problem is the inconsistency in one game, not the span of a series. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:24, 25 April 2016 (EDT)

@Niiue: Spiky Fish also don't act the same as Spiny Cheep-Cheeps so there's another notable difference between the two other than the naming. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:If you look at LinktheLefty's comment, it might not be a valid point for the behavior difference. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:50, 28 April 2016 (EDT)

==Should this split have happened?==
{{talk}}

"Spiny Fish" is indeed quite different-looking than Spiny Cheep-Cheep. But not as much different than Spiked Fun Guy in that game looks from how it should. And the "spiny Fish" is still far more similar than the pufferfish enemy from Super Mario Land 2. I think that if the Yoshi's Story one s split based off of differences such as that, then it should as well. Unless of course the Japanese name for "Spiny Fish" is one of those ambiguously-legit-or-not ones
Tail added. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 1:22, 8 June 2017 (CT)
:For the record, the Japanese name ''is'' confirmed. The articles were split because Spiny Fish having a different appearance was considered important (even though regular Cheep Cheeps in YS don't really resemble their main-series counterparts either...). [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 02:27, 8 June 2017 (EDT)

::OK. Well, again, it's at least recognizable as a fish, unlike Spiked Fun Guy in that game in comparison to its normal form, which looks more like a purple gummy bear sea anemone with dragon feet and big lips than any sort of cactus. The character models used for the graphics in that game were honestly quite baffling. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 1:30, 8 June 2017 (CT)

:::Anyways, due to all of the various design choices the Yoshi games had, I propose that this be re-opened to re-merging. There's been a lot of unnecessary splitting here, with the Paper Mario Big Boos and the Missile/Bullseye Bills of Yoshi's Island (only used in Advance 3). All it does is make navigation a pain, especially to those with poor bandwidth that takes 45 minutes to switch between pages. -{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 4:36, 12 June 2017 (CT)

I know it's capitalized on the official website, but in the Nintendo Power strategy guide...

"''Yoshi has no appetite for the spiny fish—since eating one would be like swallowing a pincushion.''" (95)

"''Spiny fish swim back and forth near the tunnel. If one pokes you as you paddle behind it, nibble on an eel. Since the Yoshis can’t throw eggs underwater, steer clear of all spiked pikes. The fish are quite easy to avoid, however, since they swim left and right while also drifting up or down ever so slightly.''" (100)

"''A clattering clam guards the tunnel leading to the Special Heart. Whenever the shellfish opens up to say “ahhh,” it will dribble out a stream of bubbles that will flush the patrolling spiny fish upward. If you incorrectly time your entrance into the tunnel, Yoshi will get sucked into the clam’s undertow along with the spiny fish. All the while, the fish will be poking Yoshi as you try to swim free of the jet stream. Bide your time by the pipe, then, once the clam closes its shell, swim left into the passage. When you capture the heart, three melons will appear.''" (101)

...the lowercase would suggest it was not meant to be taken as a proper name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:42, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

probably happened because it looked like spiny cheep cheep. and the fact that they don't chase you (even though they didn't do that in smb3...) though I'm glad the split happened. they look different, and the fact that it's Yoshi... ehh. oh well. TYC

==Include Every Derivative Togepuku in This Article, or Split Them All==
{{TPP}}
''Togepuku'' is Spiny Cheep Cheep's Japanese name, but it's applied to varying degrees on this wiki due to several redesigns. [[Talk:Spiny_Fish|There]] [[Talk:Harisenbon|are]] [[Talk:Spiny_Cheep_Cheep#Should_this_split_have_happened.3F|prior]] [[Talk:Porcupuffer#Super_Mario_Galaxy_-_Spiny_Cheep_Cheep_.2F_Balloonfish.3F|discussions]], but currently, this is as follows: the ''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins'' Togepuku - a pufferfish with no English name - is [[Spiny_Cheep_Cheep#Super_Mario_Land_2:_6_Golden_Coins|included]] in the article; the ''Yoshi's Story'' Togepuku - a spiny fish with a basic swim cycle - has its [[Spiny Fish|own article]]; and the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' Togepuku - another pufferfish - is in [[Porcupuffer|another article]] thanks to Prima. This proposal aims to fix this inconsistent treatment in one of two approaches. The first option will simply keep all three contained in the Spiny Cheep Cheep article. The second option will keep all three apart in their own articles, resulting in the one from ''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins'' known as "Togepuku" (with foreign tag) and the one from the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games known as "Balloonfish" (its internal name) [[MarioWiki_talk:Naming#Make_an_exception_to_source_priority_for_articles_with_identical_names|per this proposal]]. The second option does not factor differences in ''Mario Pinball Land'', ''Yoshi Touch & Go'' and ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions'', which I feel should be a follow-up discussion should it pass.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 25, 2017, 23:59 GMT<br>
===Option 1: Keep Every Togepuku Here, Merging ''Yoshi's Story'' Spiny Fish and Moving ''Super Mario Galaxy'' Togepuku from Porcupuffer===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My preferred option overall, as the majority of appearance and behavior deviations occurred before the general standards of ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} While the German translation of the ''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'' keeps the name of most enemies of ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]'' in Japanese, the name of this one is the same of the Porcupuffer in ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'': ''Stachel-Cheep'', which is the name of Spiny Cheep Cheeps in ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'', distinguished from the Porcupuffer in ''[[Super Mario World]]'', ''Stachelfisch''. Plus, since the Japanese name of the Spiny Fish is still ''Togepuku'', I think we can include it as well, just like we did with [[Skeeter]]s in ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]''.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per all.
#{{User|YoshiStar28}} Sounds like a good option to me.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I still hold my position regarding Japanese guide names from [[Talk:Morty Mole|previous]] [[Talk:Mega Mole|proposals]], so yes, I think all should be included.
#{{User|LuigiMaster123}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.

===Option 2: Split ''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins'' Togepuku a la ''Yoshi's Story'' Spiny Fish and Split ''Super Mario Galaxy'' Togepuku from Porcupuffer===

===Leave as-is===

===Comments===


==Split Porcupinefish from the ''Super Mario World'' Television Series==
{{TPP}}
[[Spiny_Cheep_Cheep#Super_Mario_World_television_series|Porcupinefish]] from the ''Super Mario World'' television series is included in this article, but it doesn't appear to be a Spiny Cheep Cheep in any way, shape, or form. While the episode seemed to have holdovers from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (namely a place called Ice Land and a Fire Piranha Plant character), ''Super Mario World'' did not have Spiny Cheep Cheeps, and the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' design of Spiny Cheep Cheep was the only thing to go off on at the time. It has the greatest similarity to an Urchin, but Urchins appeared in another episode with a different design (and are sea urchins, not porcupinefish). It could be a Porcupuffer, but Porcupuffers are supposed to be fairly large, whereas these guys are small enough to be unknowingly stepped on. Upon closer inspection, they have dorsal fins, which none of the three usually have. Additionally, touching their spikes results in the victim turning blue and being temporarily unable to move, and none of them have ever had a paralyzing effect. This proposal deals with the discrepancy in one of two ways: the first option treats this creature as a creation unique to the cartoon, and splits it off into its own article; the second option moves it to Porcupuffer, with which it shares a name similarity and is the likeliest of them.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 25, 2017, 23:59 GMT<br>
===Split Porcupinefish===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per popsicle.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Well, until Nintendo confirms this, it's just speculation.  Per LinkTheLefty.  (Yes, per popsicle.)
#{{User|YoshiStar28}} Per all.
#{{User|Alex95}} - Now that I got images of them in the comments so I can see what they look like and piece the information to them, I have to agree. They look and act unlike both Spiny Cheep Cheeps and Porcuffers.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
#{{User|LuigiMaster123}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.

===Move to Porcupuffer===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} You see the Blurps in this show? Huge, looks like a Boss Bass. Given that a pufferfish would be an odd thing to make up for the show, it's more than likely that this was intended to be a Porcupuffer. By the way, since I'm at home for the break, I can't YouTube, so perhaps someone could capture a screenshot of this Porcupine fish?

===Leave as-is===

===Comments===
I'm not so sure about this. Some of the enemies in the DIC ''Mario'' cartoons are given mere name changes, such as "Koopa Wizard" for Magikoopa and "Koopa Football Player" for Chargin' Chuck. Just throwing out something to think about. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 08:12, 11 December 2017 (EST)
:The cartoons have also brought us others like Bomb Net and Smell Bob-omb, which are Bob-ombs with unique effects that have no direct game equivalent. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:18, 11 December 2017 (EST)

Can anyone show me what the cartoon ones look like? I can't find an image of them. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:21, 11 December 2017 (EST)
:[[:File:PorcupinefishCartoon.jpg|Here]] is a closeup of one, and [[:File:PorcupinefishPopsicles.jpg|this]] shows what happens when touched. It's almost like DIC received a mislabeled illustration of Urchin without a description or sense of scale, but for context, Urchins are [[:File:UrchinsCartoon.jpg|elsewhere]].
:Doc - The [[:File:BlurpCartoon.jpg|Blurp]] isn't really that big. [[:File:TrouterSMBSS.jpg|Trouter]] is honestly more menacing. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:20, 11 December 2017 (EST)
::Thanks! {{User:Alex95/sig}} 20:26, 11 December 2017 (EST)
:::And to think the original Trouter sprite looked like a leaf with eyes. I still stand by my decision, if DiC is too lazy to redesign their flawed crocodilian King Koopa design by the third series, honestly most things can be reasonably assumed to be bad misinterpretations. Like that green Rex that shot a fireball, or the scene where another green Rex is inexplicably given a Dino Rhino head in a few shots. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, 11 December 2017 (EST)
::::It does [[:File:Porcu-Puffer.PNG|sort of]] resemble Porcupuffer's game sprite, if you squint hard enough. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:00, 12 December 2017 (EST)
:::::I am well familiar with ''Super Mario World'' graphics; I am a spriter, after all. Anyways, the needlish spikes, dark blue color, and tiny frown are similar to the sprite, and my point earlier was with how ''insanely'' off the Blurp looked, I think any similar creature with a similar name from the source material is likely the inspiration. Especially when some others were given real-world generic names, like "Gophers" (which aren't even related to moles) and "Caterpillars." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:11, 12 December 2017 (EST)
:::::Also, you got that Blurp pic from a rather flattering angle, when it's moving towards the camera beforehand when you can see its teeth, it's much more menacing and big-looking, because DiC at that point was so cheap they couldn't be bothered to keep something on the model the show had just set for the relatively few frames it appeared. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:39, 12 December 2017 (EST)
::::::I see it as a change in perspective, not that it suddenly shrinks; the first shot is a frontal angel where it zooms towards the camera by itself, and the second gives a better sense of its size relative to its surroundings. The same thing happens with the Torpedo next, and it's smaller than the Magnum Bill at the beginning of the episode. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 01:15, 13 December 2017 (EST)
:::::::I mean it looked fatter in the earlier shot, and the proportion to eyes vs the rest of the body was off even with perspective factored in. Its general shape in the earlier shot looked a lot like Boss Bass's sprite, which is probably where the comparison came from. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:26, 13 December 2017 (EST)