Editing Talk:Spiny

== Species Question ==

Are spinies considered to be koopas or beetles?--[[User:Fg|Fg]] 19:02, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Spinies are a tricky enemy. They have some characteristics of both, but I think they're Koopas, albeit four-legged ones. {{User:Monty Mole/sig}}

:They are Koopas, but I believe are a distant relative of Buzzy Beetles. They are kinda the bridge between the two species. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

== What could make this article better? ==

I spent a long time expanding the article, and I would like to know what could make it even better. Any suggestions? '''[[User:InfectedShroom|InfectedShroom.]]'''[[Image:infectoicon.png]] 
I have a long-time goal in mind...

:The article is real nice, but the only problem is that there isn't enough pics. There really need to be more pics, and at least one pic in the Other Appearances section. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''aper '''Jorge'''</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Paper Jorge|Talk]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Paper Jorge|Contributions]])<tt>&middot;</tt></small>

== Super Mario Galaxy 2 Prima Guide ==

In the Super Mario Galaxy 2 Prima Guide it referees to them as bugs. I think we should mention this. But it refrees Swoopers as bats, Hammer Bros. as koopa-''like'', Scuttlebugs as Sprongs and Big Boo as Mega Boo. Should we mention this.

The Prima Guides are often a bit flaky, as I don't think that they are made by Nintendo. I have the guide for NSMBWii and it calls [[Fishbones]] Wet Bones. I'd leave it for now. {{User:Supershroom/sig}}

==Gallery==
We need a gallery for Spinies because there are a lot of images.--[[File:YoshiMP8Artwork.png|35px]][[User:YoshiGo99|YoshiGo99]][[File:YoshiNSMBW.png|35px]] 20:20, 14 March 2011 (EDT)

==Merge Spiny with Spike Top==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|red|KEEP SPLIT 1-21}}

I think we should Merge Spike Top with Spiny. They are pretty much the same aren't they? The only difference is that Spike Tops have one spike.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Superfiremario}} <br>
'''Deadline:''' April 30, 2011, 23:59 GMT

====Merge====
#{{User|It's-a-me-Mario!}} Per Superfiremario's proposal!

====Keep Seperated====
#{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} Uh i hate to break it to you but Spiny and Spike tops are not the same in fact there not even part of the same species one is a Koopa and the other is a Buzzy Beetle
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} It's not like [[Spiked Goomba]]s are merged with Goombas.
#{{User|FourPaperHeroes}} Actually all three are a species of Koopa but Spike Tops are hardly related to Spinies, they're more closely related to Buzzy Beetles and they are different enough to remain a separate article.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
#{{User|DKPetey99}} Per Goomba's Shoe15 and my comments below!
#{{User|Tails777}} Yeah, the 2 are too different. Per all.
#{{User|YoshiGo99}} Spinys don't have mouths and the shell is a lighter shade of red than the Spike tops. Spike tops have red eyes and crawl on walls and floors, and ceilings.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - They are ''COMPLETELY'' different things. Different looks, different abilities, different names in ''every'' language, appearing side-by-side in the same games doing different things. Merging them would be ''completely'' mental.
#{{User|Zero777}} They are obviously two different species, per all.
#{{User|Platform}} Spike Tops can't be killed with fire.  They are in fact a cross between a Buzzy and a Spiny.
#{{User|SWFlash}} The ''only'' similarity is that they're both have red shells, but that's it.
#{{User|DK and Diddy Kong vs Bowser and Bowser Jr.}} Per Platform and SWFlash.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
#{{User|Reddragon19k}} Per all! Different looks, different names, everything!
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Completely different, per all.
#{{User|Superfiremario}} Horrible Proposal
#{{User|Steverocks27}} Per all! Their only similarities are their red shells and that they both have more than 0 spikes!
#{{User|Mikiuz}} Per all. The name of the Spiny is different to the one of the Spike Top in all languages and they are different species.
#{{User|Mario304}} Per all.
#{{User|Ultrahammer5365}} Per all. They are ''entirely'' different species. You can't merge 2 enemies based on vague similarities.
#{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}Silliest Proposal '''ever''' :P ''worse'' than merging [[Bowser]] with [[Barney Bubble]] :D

====Comments====
your date is wrong it ends on the 29th {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
:Actually, it ends on the 30th (at 23:59 GMT). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 23:45, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

there clearly not the same thing just look at them http://www.mariowiki.com/images/0/0a/LakituSpiny.gif 
http://www.mariowiki.com/images/4/44/SpiketopNSMBW.png

::Yes and Spike Tops are sub-species of Buzzy Beetles. If they were sub-species of Spinies then maybe we will have a stronger argument, but highly different! {{User:DKPetey99/Sig}} 14:54, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

:::These are buzzy beetles, as they have the same form. Spinies don't have a dark space in them between the eyes. Sorry buddy, but I won't vote, for the sake of the wiki.

--{{User:Boowhoplaysgames/Sig}} 16:34, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

No good proposal I made, eh?
{{User:Superfiremario/Sig}} 15:45, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

Since the proposer is opposing and blocked(:-/), should this be deleted? [[File:Red_Yoshi_TTYD.png|30px]] [[User:Yoshiwaker|<span style=color:#F96300>Yoshi</span>]][[User talk:Yoshiwaker|<span style=color:#F00>waker</span>]] [[File:PMCS Orange Yoshi.png|30px]] 17:41, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

:::They are completly different. Spinies are immune to fire; Spike Tops are not. Besides, they are seperated in the New Super Mario Bros. Book and should be seperate hear. {{User: Phantom Bowser/Sig}}

Last time I played [[Super Mario Bros.]] I killed Spinies with Fireballs. [[File:YS WhiteShyGuy.png|35px]][[User:IceShadow1199|<span style="font-family:tahoma;color:##0000FF">IceShadow</span>]] [[User talk:IceShadow1199|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/IceShadow|edits]])  18:47, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

== images ==

I think the spiny article needs more images. {{User:GEX/Sig}}

== Huh? ==
:::It says this article needs to be expanded to include more information, but there is nothing left to include. And it should be re-written in the correct verb tense, but it already has the same verb tense that we are supposed to use. Why?[[User:M&amp;L|M&amp;L  Beware my fury!]] 20:18, 18 January 2012 (EST)

== Problem I corrected. ==

I noticed that someone named the Mario Strikers section, the Mario ''Football'' series. This is the British and Australian name. I want to inform who wrote this that this the '''American''' Super Mario Wiki. I am not angered, but remember the American names next time. Thank you.

[[File:Kamekwand.gif|frameless|left]] [[User:KingKamek|KingKamek]] ([[User talk:KingKamek|talk]])
:Well an old wiki policy did made it required to change the NTSC names to PAL names due to the game being released first on those regions. So you shouldn't really blame the editors for this. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 01:54, 24 July 2013 (EDT)

I don't know what to tell you but Spinies in [[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]] are very hard to time when attacking you. Can't you just use a Frog Suit or a Super Boot Sticker so that way they don't hit you? But you have to have timing though or else you will get hit. {{unsigned|Powow66}}

== Umm.. Weren't spinies in Dream Team? ==

I'm sure I've seen spinies in Dreamy Driftwood Shore once. Why doesn't it say it's in Dream Team? {{unsigned|Kyleallt}}

==''Kirby'' series==
[[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] is currently mentioned briefly in this article under names in other languages, but should it be expanded into its own cameo section a la ''The Legend of Zelda'' series? The ''Zelda'' enemy was confirmed to be a ''Mario''-based element in the ''Link's Awakening'' Nintendo Switch remake through one of the ''Mario''-related figures, despite its somewhat different appearance and behavior (though see Shy Guy). I think it's likely that the ''Kirby'' series enemy is in the same boat - it has two Japanese names which are both directly based on the English and Japanese name for ''Mario'' Spiny ("Spiny" in ''Kirby's Adventure'' and "Togezo" in ''Kirby's Dream Land 3''), has a shell attack in ''Kirby's Adventure'' that would later influence a similar move by the Spiny enemies in ''Four Swords'' and ''The Minish Cap'', and was replaced in the GBA remake ([[wikirby:Capsule J|another enemy]] is believed to be replaced due to a similarity with {{fandom|twinbee|TwinBee (character)|another property}}). The only thing I'm unsure about is its design, which is redone in a style to better fit with the ''Kirby'' aesthetic, but if the same can be said of the later ''Zelda'' design and Spike Top can also inexplicably lose a set of limbs, so can Spiny. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:50, September 29, 2019 (EDT)
:I'd support treating the Kirby enemy as a cameo. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 08:00, September 29, 2019 (EDT)
:Sure. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 08:11, September 29, 2019 (EDT)
:Yeah, I've been meaning to ask this for ages. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:19, September 29, 2019 (EDT)
:Another point is how the KA attack greatly resembles the Spiny Egg attack in the first two ''Paper Mario'' games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:48, September 29, 2019 (EDT)
::All right, so consensus so far is to include it in the article proper, but I want to bring up one more thing I noticed for completeness' sake: on [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%82%B2%E3%82%BE%E3%83%BC#%E5%AE%A2%E6%BC%94 Japanese Wikipedia] [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%82%B2%E3%82%BE%E3%83%BC (and Wikia)] pages, Spiny from ''Kirby's Adventure'' and Togezo from ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' are apparently considered to be two different enemies, with only the latter being the ''Mario'' enemy. However, I disagree with that assessment for the following reasons: 1) both names share the same exact root with the ''Mario'' enemy and it seems far more likely that Spiny was simply renamed to Togezo to make the connection more obvious to Japanese audiences, who would likely not be aware of the ''Mario'' enemy's English name, 2) the unnamed appearance of the enemy from ''Kirby's Dream Course'' depicts a middling design with traits of both the earlier and later ''Kirby'' appearances, and 3) while its offensive move was swapped with a defensive one (which is reminiscent of [[wikirby:Spikey|Spikey]] from ''Kirby's Dream Land 2''), a couple of other regular enemies have had their attack patterns change over time (for example, [[wikirby:Dekabu|Dekabu]]). If there are no objections, we'll consider them to be the same enemy like WiKirby. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:53, September 30, 2019 (EDT)
:::The wikiA claims that JP supplemental material for KDC called it Supaini like KA. It went from Spiny Egg to Bony Beetle in my eyes. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:51, September 30, 2019 (EDT)
:::Not sure if I trust them, but I looked it up and it seems that there was a Shogakukan guide after all, so that info is probably correct. I'd liken this situation to how [[Talk:Piranha Plant#This is the Ultimate|rigid]] Japanese Wikipedia generally is when it comes to name changes. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:18, September 30, 2019 (EDT)
:::Well, I remembered that I actually happen to be the one who [https://kirby.fandom.com/index.php?diff=174889 added] said info there, back when I was active on Wikia. I just forgot all about it. <small><small>So it must be correct.</small></small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:40, September 30, 2019 (EDT)
:::Also, in case there's doubt, pages 287 and 295 of ''Playing with Power: Nintendo NES Classics'' call it Togezo. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:40, October 15, 2019 (EDT)

== Mario Movie name ==
I think it's a bit of a stretch that we are considering that the name of the Spinies the movie as Spiny Shells which came from... a tweet. Given how inaccurate this name is and how one-off that tweet was ([[List_of_controversies#Wigger_Wednesday|there are instances of tweets being misspelled and such]]), I don't think we should use this as the actual name and we should refer to them as Spinies. Sure, the movie has some [[Mini Mushroom|creative]] [[Super Mushroom|liberties]] [[Spiny Shell (blue)|on]] [[Banzai Bill|names]] but this one was likely an oversight from the Twitter account who probably accidently put Spiny Shells. That is unless the sequel decides to do that whithin the movie. --[[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 19:43, September 8, 2023 (EDT)

==Mario Kart==
Have they ever appeared in Mario Kart. The only instant that I know of is the badges in Tour, but did they appear anywhere else?[[User:OngoingTalent13|OngoingTalent13]] ([[User talk:OngoingTalent13|talk]]) 00:56, December 29, 2023 (EST)
:Their [[Spiny Shell (blue)|shells]] sure have. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:20, December 29, 2023 (EST)

== Refer to ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' Spiny Shells as Spinies ==

{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|13-0|Refer to TSMBM Spiny Shells as Spinies}}
{{quote|Koopas! Goombas! Whatever '''those''' things are!|Bowser|The Super Mario Bros. Movie}}
Here is one of the most baffling things I've seen this wiki do, and that's to refer to the Spinies from ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' as '''Spiny Shells'''. For context, ''this name does not even appear in the movie'' (in fact, the joke Bowser ''doesn't even know their name'') but rather, a single off-handed Tweet.

'''Edit 01/05/24:''' As it turns out, that's not the only instance as Koopa con Carne mentioned below. One Tweet states, "[https://twitter.com/supermariomovie/status/1645854665018429451 Spiny Shells we see you. #SuperMarioMovie is in theaters now - get tickets today!]" [https://www.facebook.com/supermariomovie/videos/theyre-spiny-shells-and-they-have-feelingssupermariomovie/741897647615718 Facebook] and [https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrgaGi5p4%20G/ Instagram] also called them that too. That does not necessarily change arguments that these are one-off instances, but now my proposal is a bit more accurate.

Now, I'm not sure how the movie's Twitter account goes. Still, I'm pretty sure this is a case of circular reporting where someone who managed the account mistook their name. Spinies had tons of precedent up to that point of being called what we refer to them today. Now, the movie gives some creative liberties on names, notably [[Banzai Bill|Bomber Bill]]. Still, at least that appears in the movie, while Spinies don't get a name-drop. We have a habit of using names from other sources. Still, for something like this, we can chalk this up as a simple error and not what the Spinies should be called in the movie unless the sequel wants to call them that. [[Ptooie#Mario_Kart_8_Deluxe|Even Nintendo has made mistakes in Tweets when naming their subjects.]] We really shouldn't use apparent mistakes like this as their proper name.

'''Proposer''': {{User|TheUndescribableGhost}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Per proposal
#{{User|Dark-Boy-1up}} Mistakes happen and that's fine, but that does not mean we have to roll with the error.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Combined with the movie calling the [[Spiny Shell (blue)|Spiny Shell ''item'' from Mario Kart the "Blue Shell"]], rolling with the name "Spiny Shell" for these guys because of Exactly One Tweet feels rather silly. While we would understand if this was maybe more consistent, the fact it's literally just one tweet saying this in regards to a scene where the entire joke is that Bowser himself ''doesn't know what the name is'', giving plausible deniability that perhaps the misname was an intentional joke (though not likely), doesn't exactly esteem us to the Spiny Shell name.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} There's already precedent for overlooking obvious goofs for established subjects like this, as long as it's still mentioned in the article. For example, the only NSMB2-related material that mentions Scuttlebugs and Crowbers is the Prima Guide which just calls them Spiders and Crows, but we still use their regular names while covering that game. If they were actually called this in the movie itself I'd most likely oppose, but like the Prima Guides, this comes from a source that's farther removed from the team that actually worked on the product.
#{{User|Super Game Gear}} Per all.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all. It's clearly an error and given that their names were never said in the film ("Whatever those things are!"), move it.
#{{User|Mario}} The social media folks are probably not that particular about the names they were giving Spinies so IMO don't trip over a trivial thing and just call these Spinies.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per all
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} ''Fine.''
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I mean, they're more than just mere shells in there, right?
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per whatever those things are.

====Oppose====
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} They were called "Spiny Shells" in at least two [https://twitter.com/supermariomovie/status/1645854665018429451 different] [https://twitter.com/supermariomovie/status/1651269921303674901 tweets] by the Mario Movie account, not just one. (EDIT: on [https://www.facebook.com/supermariomovie/videos/theyre-spiny-shells-and-they-have-feelingssupermariomovie/741897647615718 Facebook] and [https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrgaGi5p4_G/ Instagram] too!) That's not to mention that, to my knowledge, neither of these instances of a supposed error have been corrected, unlike the Wiggler Wednesday thing and Ptooie being confused for another enemy. At this point, there's technically more evidence to suggest the name was a genuine creative liberty than there is in favor of it being unintentional. Almost a year ago there was a discussion surrounding [[Talk:Construction Site Fight#Swap this article with Balloon Barrage: proposal edition|"Construction Site Fight"]], a level title from ''Donkey Kong Land'' that many found to be 99% erroneous, and even that discussion had users extremely divided given that the title itself was maintained in later official material; I'd say we have even less reason to meddle with Spiny's given name for the Mario movie.</s>

====Comments====
1. I'd like to reiterate what I said in my vote that the name was used in two separate tweets (and reiterated by official accounts on other social media sites). The proposer's claim that it only came from one tweet is plainly false.<br>2. @Waluigi Time, those tweets are the only official movie-adjacent material to namedrop Spinies. It doesn't matter that the movie creators' didn't come up with it, all that matters is that there is no other source (higher-priority or otherwise) to call them something else for the movie. For that matter, I disagree with how Scuttlebug's and Crowber's names are handled in info related to NSMB2, especially given how that's inconsistent with the treatment other [[Skewer#Donkey_Kong_Country_Returns_.2F_Donkey_Kong_Country_Returns_3D|subjects]] [[Pokey_Head#Super_Mario_Sunshine|receive]]. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:44, January 4, 2024 (EST)
: The Skewers in Donkey Kong Country Returns aren't actually Skewers, they're Skewer-like objects. Also, in the Japanese version of Sunshine, Pokey Heads were called Sanbo Headdo there. PRIMA's strategy guide for Galaxy 2 was referring to them by their actual Japanese translations. Also, it was determined for Crowbers that PRIMA was just using a generic term (I don't count the Scuttlebug because even MP7 called them Spiders). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 16:26, January 4, 2024 (EST)
::"The Skewers in Donkey Kong Country Returns aren't actually Skewers [...]" Mario-franchise Skewers in general are borderline generic obstacles, they just happen to have a largely consistent design between games. Nobody objected to listing DKCR shafts on the Skewer page when it underwent the feature nomination process, and that's because they look like skewers, act like skewers, hurt the player like a skewer, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they're as much the skewers you see in Mario platformers as [[Frog]]s are frogs. The Pokey Head/Sanbo Head observation is splitting hairs--"Sanbo Head" is a direct, unadapted translation of their Japanese name so I don't really see your point. "it was determined for Crowbers that PRIMA was just using a generic term" If "crow" was a generic term and not, like, treated like a proper noun or something, fine--that is not what happened with "Spiny Shells" Spinies, however, as those 2 tweets gave them a different, but very much legit for all we know, name. As I said below, calling it an error is largely subjective. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:17, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:It's exactly the same situation as the NSMB2 Prima Guide though, which is what I'm getting at, and just because it hasn't been applied to similar situations yet doesn't mean it can't be. (Neither of the examples listed are perfectly comparable though, Skewers never appeared in a DK game before and it's a different design, and Pokey Head was introduced with an erroneous name rather than being well-established and having a goof - whether that's extended to Pokeys as a whole is another can of worms.) Our views on this seem to be completely incompatible though so I don't see a need to personally discuss it any further. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:35, January 4, 2024 (EST)
::And yet, "spiders" and "Spiny Shells" being perceived as errors is subjective and unencyclopedic. A fan liberty. People in this proposal are using that line of thinking to argue against the highest-priority official sources that exist for these works, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove_.22Koopa.22_and_other_name_particles_from_Koopaling_article_titles|but that is par for the course on Super Mario Wiki]]. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:59, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:::If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has consistently been established by reliable sources as being, in fact, a duck, then there's nothing subjective or unencyclopedic about continuing to call it a duck just because a less reliable source mistakenly called it a goose on a certain occasion. I'm all for correcting mistakes ''if'' the greater context of material from the franchise as a whole makes it clear that it actually is a mistake. That's all I have to say on the matter. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:27, January 4, 2024 (EST)
::::"I'm all for correcting mistakes ''if'' the greater context of material from the franchise as a whole makes it clear that it actually is a mistake." '''It doesn't.''' [[Piranha Plant#Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door|Name changes can happen on a whim and can even be isolated cases.]] That does not make them errors. The movie doesn't call them anything, but there are 2 (two) different social media posts, both published 2 weeks apart and across multiple sites, that use that name. I'm really sorry, man, but your conviction that it's an error is quite simply unfounded. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:35, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:::::I'm not sticking around for a debate, but I'll just point out Crowber's name usage in NSMB2 was agreed upon in [[Talk:Crowber|this proposal]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 21:12, January 4, 2024 (EST)

I know this is a bit off-topic, but the Ptooie thing isn't necessarily a mistake. Not entirely, at least. According to [https://twitter.com/RipBlue_hime/status/1633675352655659008 this tweet], the internal name for the plant's model refers to it as a Stalking Piranha Plant (''TekutekuPackun''), so that's probably why the tweet called them that. Besides, according to the article, they "do not blow any items in Time Trials or when the item settings are not set on Normal Items", and Ptooie's main gimmick is blowing on things, not walking (not all of them even walk), unlike Stalking Piranha Plant. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:23, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:From what I'm aware of, the main thing that differentiates a Stalking Piranha from a Ptooie is that occasionally, it stops walking and stretches out its neck for a couple moments, before it retracts its neck and start walking again. This is something the Piranha Plants in MK8's Riverside Park never do: they walk endlessly and keep items afloat by blowing on it, which only Ptooie does.<br>The internal filename is most likely where the confusion stems from (pun not intended), but it does make me curious what Nintendo of Japan called these Riverside Park Piranhas, since that would certainly add to it. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:33, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::[[Fire Stalking Piranha Plant]]s don't do the neck-stretch thing, they only walk and spit fireballs in an arc, which implies walking is the main trait of the Stalking Piranha Plant. Anyways, as for what Nintendo of Japan calls the Riverside Park plants, I tried looking but couldn't find anything. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:38, January 5, 2024 (EST)

My two cents? I don't mind either way for the "Spiny Shell" mention as long as it's made clearer to readers that it doesn't appear within the movie itself. We do that sometimes, where we say that "X is referred to in this game as Y", and then it cites a secondary source related to the game but not the game itself. I always thought that was a little odd. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:15, January 4, 2024 (EST)

== Stop considering [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] (''Kirby'' series enemy) to be the same as Spiny ==

{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|18-3|do not consider Togezo to be Spiny}}
Based on discussions as seen [[Talk:King Bob-omb#Trade & Battle: Card Hero|here]] and [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]]. So, since 2019 (as seen in [[#Kirby series|a discussion above]]), the ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemy [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] has been considered as an appearance of Spiny (like, the one from the ''Super Mario'' franchise), and thus, Togezo gets coverage on the Spiny page as if its appearances in the ''Kirby'' series are actually cameo appearances of Spiny; based on the fact that its helmet resembles a [[Spiny Shell]], it can curl up into a spiky ball that resembles a [[Spiny Egg]], and it uses the Japanese name of Spiny for its own name (and the English name for Spiny as Togezo's Japanese name in its debut). Frankly, however, I think that at most, these are mere ''references'' to Spiny, rather than Togezo actually being ''the same thing'' as Spiny.

Appearance-wise, Togezo looks virtually ''nothing'' like a Spiny. Aside from the spiky helmet, and its curled up version resembling a Spiny Egg (which is just a spiked ball), it's a black ball with oval feet and oval dot eyes. Spinies are yellow-skinned, quadruped turtles, typically with a couple toes. That alone should signify that Togezo and Spiny aren't really the same thing, but some would say that the black color of Togezo alludes to Spiny's shadowed face, as seen in its sprites for ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (and its 16-bit rerelease in ''Super Mario All-Stars''), and ''Super Mario World''. However, it's only in those sprites where Spiny is shown with a black face. In artworks, Spiny is typically shown with a face in the same color as its feet, alluding that Spiny's head isn't shadowed at all, with only [[:File:SMBSpiny.jpg|one early artwork]] showing it with a red face instead (this red face may also allude to a shadowed face, as it mimics the [[:File:SMB Spiny Sprite.gif|sprite colors]] of the original ''Super Mario Bros.''.. though its [[:File:SMASSMBSpinySprite.png|''Super Mario All-Stars'' sprite]] depicts its head as the same color as its feet too, no red or black head). Meanwhile, Togezo's artwork ''always'' depicts its body with a black color.

Next, its behavior. Togezo typically walks forward, and occasionally curls up into a ball and rolls about at a fast pace. Spiny only does the former. In fact, Spinies are only curled up into Spiny Eggs in two instances: when they're being deployed by Lakitu (they don't turn back into Spiny Eggs after being deployed), and when they touch a body of water (which was only introduced since ''New Super Mario Bros.'', ''years'' after Togezo's final appearance in ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', and several years after it was replaced by the now more common [[wikirby:Needlous|Needlous]]). The only time we actually see Spinies curling up into a Spiny Egg and race towards Mario is in ''[[Paper Mario]]'', which also released after Togezo's final appearance in a Kirby title. To me, this says that Togezo's behavior is not based on a Spiny's at all, which weakens the whole Togezo = Spiny idea. At best, Spiny may have borrowed a trait from Togezo instead, but that's a bit odd considering the developers of ''Paper Mario'' never worked on a ''Kirby'' game, so it's most likely a coincidence.

Keep in mind that Togezo also ''only'' does this in ''Kirby's Adventure'': in its second appearance, ''Kirby's Dream Course'', it's basically a stationary target like most enemies in that game, and in ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', it occasionally stops in its path to hide under its helmet and extend its spikes, a behavior reminiscent of [[wikirby:Spikey|Spikey]] from ''Kirby's Dream Land 2''. This is something that Spinies typically don't do either, and is more reminiscent of [[Bony Beetle]]'s behavior from ''Super Mario World''.

All this, combined with the fact that we never got any sort of confirmation whatsoever that Togezos from ''Kirby'' are the same thing as Spinies from ''Mario'', makes the Togezo = Spiny idea seem more like speculation and headcanon, and it baffles me that this idea was so unanimously agreed upon as fact all those years ago. The fact that Togezo at first got its Japanese and English names ''switched'' from that of Spiny, that alone makes me think less of it actually being the same creature, and more of it being a cheeky reference to Spiny at most. Definitely worth to be mentioned and noted in a Trivia section, but unless we actually get confirmation that Kirby's Togezos are supposed to be the same as Mario's Spinies, it's best that we do not treat them as one and the same.

If this proposal succeeds, Togezo's appearances in the ''Kirby'' series will be removed from the History section of the Spiny article, and a heavily truncated version would have to be covered in a Trivia section (which has to made clear that the enemy is made possibly in reference to Spiny, as opposed to ''being'' Spiny). Furthermore, artwork and sprites of the ''Kirby'' Togezo would have to be removed from [[Gallery:Spiny]] as well.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Arend}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Arend}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Arend.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal and the comments I made in the talk page Arend cites above. (EDIT: As found by LinkTheLefty on the Kirby Wikia site, there is supposedly a Japanese source from 1998 that states Togezo is ''Mario''{{'}}s Spiny, but we only know this through second-hand reporting and there may be issues with this particular book as explained by SmokedChili. From my research on ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', subsequent books released, and information Sparks shared with me from the folks over at WiKirby, I am inclined to think that if such a claim really exists in this book, it was a mistake. No subsequent work available to me suggests it is not a wholly original ''Kirby'' enemy.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We think this only caught on the way it did because of the similar treatment Nintendo's had with [[Chain Chomp]]s appearing in Zelda games--however, unlike Spiny/Togezo, this link (hah.) has actually been confirmed to be fully intentional, and has been something they've kept up for as recently as the Link's Awakening remake on Switch. In stark contrast, Nintendo is a lot more cagey if Togezo is a reference to Spiny, and hasn't exactly kept up with it in a good, long while.
#{{User|Hewer}} Was considering proposing this myself but you beat me to it. Anyway, per proposal and per my comments [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]].
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: I don't recall HAL ever confirming Togezo was Spiny. Speculation.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} The resemblances aren't established. Information like this is good fit on a trivia section.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|Shadow2}} Wait, we DO THIS?! Whaaaaaaat?
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal. Too speculative.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all, especially Nintendo101's findings.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all.
#{{User|Axis}} Took me a while to decide, but it really seems there is no direct connection to Spiny. Same Japanese name is something that should be noted in trivia, and the enemies have a distinct enough appearance that it wouldn't be fair for us to imply they're the same (or that one is based on the other).

====Oppose====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per [[#Kirby series|the reasons LTL added it here to begin with]], and my reasons below.
#{{User|Blinker}} There's a lot of discussion over whether or not these are regular Spinies, and that's fair, but there's another problem with this proposal, I think. The proposal aims to entirely remove the Kirby appearances from the History section, and simply mention them as a trivia point. Now, even if we say this isn't literally a regular Spiny, I don't think it would be controversial to say that it is at least directly based on one. In other words, a variant. And take a look at [[Rex#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|this section]] on Rex's article. No regular Rexes appear in this game, but it is still considered a part of the enemy's history. I feel like this is a similar case. Whether or not these are regular Spinies, this is still a part of the enemy's history, right?
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} As mentioned in the comments, second-hand information indicates that at least one 90's-era guide made a statement on the matter.
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all; I'd prefer to err on the side of caution before removing something like this.</strike> Hewer has a point in the comments, and the fact that the Japanese and English names are actually swapped between the two makes this seem a lot more likely to be a reference, rather than a direct cameo.

====Comments====
{{multiframe|[[File:SpinySMB3.gif]][[File:KA Spiny VV4A.gif]]|Look the same to me}}
The "reasons below":<br>
-Same name in lang-of-origin and general appearance.<br>-Rolls into ball, like a Spiny Egg<br>-Sprite resembles Spiny's SMB3 and SMW sprite (ie relatively recent games when KA was released).<br>-Iconic enemy from the creator's parent company's biggest money-maker. Coincidence from that alone is nigh-impossible.<br>-Sakurai's next Kirby game, ''Kirby Super Star'', was ''full'' of references to ''Mario'' and other Nintendo properties.<br>-Replaced in later iteration (with some fat caterpillar called Needlouse), as happened with the similar guest-appearance-masquerading-poorly-as-an-OC Capsule J from KSS (who was {{wp|Twinbee}} in all but name); why else would it have been replaced? It doesn't have Phan-Phan's excuse of being an anime tie-in (admittedly Gip replacing Bounder is still puzzling); it's worth noting that at that point Sakurai's opinion of Nintendo proper was strained at best, leading to his resignation in the same period.<br>-Just as similar as the Spinies in ''The Legend of Zelda'' games, which also had some very off-kilter differences, especially in behavior.<br>-[[Para-Beetle|Number of]] [[Spike Top|limbs doesn't]] [[Bony Beetle|matter]]. This just helps it more fit in with the ''Kirby'' aesthetic.<br>---[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:20, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
:The fact that several of these points were directly addressed in the proposal leads me to believe you didn't even read it before posting this comment. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 21:28, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
::I did, and much of what you say is blatantly untrue. For instance saying it looks "nothing" like a Spiny when it looks "almost exactly" like a contemporary Spiny. Now, I'll be fine with stopping considering the KDL3 ones alone to be the same rather than simply based on them, since the lang-of-orig is different there (being the English name instead) and they are ''slightly'' differentiated more than the KA/KDC ones. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:40, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::I encourage folks to maintain {{wp|good faith}}.
:::Doc, I think you know that media is interpretative and there is no objectivity in saying Togezo looks "almost exactly" like a Spiny. Personally, I am open to the idea that it is ''inspired'' by the Koopa enemy in the same way Capsule J is based on TwinBee, but that does not mean it is ontologically the same creature, and this goes beyond the number of feet. Our Spiny is essentially a turtle, not an orb with four feet. That even remains the case in ''Zelda''. Togezo is a helmeted black orb in shoes. As outlined in this proposal, their means of attack are not truly one-to-one either. Even if you do not agree with that interpretation, I do not think it is an invalid one. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:12, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::By "false" I more meant "incorrect" rather than "you are attempting to deceive me," but point taken, I got a little heated there. My apologies. Regardless, I don't see that as an "orb," it's a flattened turtle-body shape. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

:This is tangential, because I find the point it is attached to very weak (the fact that HAL replaced multiple ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemies with new ones in ''Nightmare in Dream Land'', not just Togezo, makes it a moot point), but {{iw|wikirby|Phan Phan}} was not incorporated to promote the anime. ''Nightmare in Dream Land'' was released in 2002 and the first episode with Phan Phan was "{{iw|wikirby|Cowardly Creature}}" and that first aired in 2003. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:38, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
::Well "animation lead time" is a thing. ...though that makes me wonder the motivation for replacing the cool turtle with the fugly uncanny valley elephant head even more than it already did. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:52, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::[https://wikirby.com/wiki/File:E94_Scene_9.png Look what you've done to him]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:12, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::''Yis ah am ratha handsome''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::Game development is not a quick job either, even for a remake. I realistically could see both projects having begun development around the same time. <s>Also, Rolling Turtle doesn't look particularly "cool" to me. Its buck teeth and jolly disposition make it rather (endearingly) silly to me, kinda like Phan Phan, though not nearly as much as, say, Sillydillo. I personally find Kabula a lot cooler</s> {{User:Arend/sig}} 23:21, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

:In response to "the reasons below":
:*Already addressed; Togezo's Japanese name was initially Spiny while the English name is Togezo. The two names bring swapped for the regions implies that the creature is a reference rather than the same as Spiny.
:*Already addressed; Togezo only rolls up like a ball in ''Kirby's Adventure'', Spiny couldn't roll up into a ball on its own until ''Paper Mario'' and ''New Super Mario Bros.'', long after Togezo had been phased out (yeah, Spiny Eggs exist as long as Spines did, but prior to PM, Spinies only ''emerged'' from them)
:*Already addressed; Aside from the black face and the spiky helmet, Togezo doesn't resemble Spiny at all, and artwork of Spiny never showed it with a black face while it ''always'' showed Togezo with one.
:*HAL Laboratory did not develop any of the ''Super Mario'' titles and little of the ''Kirby's Adventure'' staff worked on ''Mario'' games (e.g. none of the credited character designers, Takashi Saito, Shigeru Hashiguchi, Tadashi Hashikura, Kazu Ozawa, Kazuya Miura, were ''Mario'' alumni), weakening the idea that Togezo was intended to be the same as Spiny.
:*Literally irrelevant to the conversation, as Togezo did not appear in ''Kirby Super Star'' in the slightest. Even then, reference =/= actual cameo appearance.
:*The very fact that Bounder was replaced by Gip already breaks this point, since copyright infringement or anime tie-ins have nothing to do with that, meaning it does not have to be the reason for Togezo being replaced. In addition, implying that Togezo was replaced for similar reasons as Capsule J literally makes no sense, since as you said, HAL Laboratory is a 2nd-party Nintendo company, meaning them using Mario references is fine (e.g. Kabula in ''Kirby Super Star Ultra'' uses bullets that resemble Banzai Bill). TwinBee, meanwhile, is from ''Konami'' (and Capsule J-2 was later usurped by Capsule J-3 in ''Kirby: Planet Robobot'' when it didn't need to, since Capsule J-2 was already copyright-safe). Also, [[wikirby:Needlous|Needlous]] was already addressed (and correctly spelled), no need for a re-introduction.
:*Except that unlike Togezo, Spiky Beetles actually ''do'' somewhat resemble Spinies, in the fact that they're quadrupeds and wear shells the same way Spinies do. Plus that ''Link's Awakening'' on Switch confirms that they're Spinies, and we still don't have official confirmation about that on Togezo.
:*All the examples you've shown are not only ''not'' the same thing as Spiny, they're not even Spiny ''variants''. Please show an example where Spiny (not a variant of Spiny, nor a Buzzy Beetle or any if its variants; a true, bona fide, ''regular'' Spiny) has shown an amount of limbs that's irregular from the typical 4. If you can only show that with subspecies of an admittedly closely related species, that wouldn't really give proof that Togezo is the same case. Also it wouldn't really explain why it's got oval feet instead of three-toed turtle paws now, or why its whole head became its body now.
:{{User:Arend/sig}} 22:20, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
::Bing bong
::*False, <s>KA and KDC were Togezo, KDL3 were Spiny. This is true for all regions. This is why I'd be fine with demoting the KDL3 version only.</s> I got these mixed up, silly Docky. OK, switch that then.
::*Spiny Eggs were always depicted as "rolled up" Spinies in sprites and artwork.
::*It literally does, I really don't understand where this "they look nothing alike" viewpoint comes from.
::*So? Same goes for KSS, but we're not saying Mario-and-friends in the crowd aren't them because that'd be silly.
::*That's not the point, the point is that it means they're not shy about references.
::*Grr, I ''thought'' Needlous didn't have an "e," but I miscorrected myself (granted it's such a "lousy" replacement it still fits). I still believe that was changed with some sort of purpose, though word from Sakurai would be nice in that regard.
::*Spiny Beetles normally don't have heads either, LANS was an exception.
::*Squat turtles is squat turtles, that's the point I was making. The other things? ''Stylization'' - like that thing about Spiny Beetles lacking heads.
::[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::*Please provide a source: Togezo's Wikirby article certainly doesn't claim that it was called "Spiny" ANWHERE outside of the Japanese version of Kirby's Adventure, let alone ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' in sny region.
:::*If you're referring to Togezo artwork, I can only find two pieces of artwork, and they certainly don't look like "rolled up" Spinies to me. Again, the only time they actually roll up and resemble a Spiny Egg was in ''Kirby's Adventure''.
:::*It literally does not. Again, as addressed before, the only thing they have in common is the spiked helmet/shell. Togezo resembles a black ball with Kirby feet, while Spiny is a yellow quadruped turtle, woth a head and tail, and toes on its feet. The black head only appears in-game in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and ''World'', but is depicted as red very early on, and the same yellow/orange skintone in every other instance, while Togezo is always depicted as black.
:::*That's true... though, that brings up a different counterpoint: Mario and co in the audience in KSS actually ''resemble'' Mario and co. Togezo does not, it's """"stylized"""" as you'd like to claim. Also, as you said yourself, ''Kirby Super Star'' is chock full of references to other Nintendo games, whereas ''Kirby's Adventure'' is not
:::*''Kirby Super Star'' is also like the sixth-seventh Kirby title released; of course they won't be shy about more blatant references. Meanwhile, ''Kirby's Adventure'' is only Kirby title number 2. These are vastly different games made in different times.
:::*Fair enough, I suppose.
:::*LANS stylization is literally based on those of the original LAGB(C) sprites, though. We can see that with the Goombas from [[:File:Links Awakening Switch Goombas.png|pre-release]] until [[:File:Goombas LANS screenshot.jpg|final game]]. Then again, original LA gave Spiked Beetle only four sharp spikes on it shell, so I guess it's a fair point.
:::*Yeah, except that Togezo doesn't really look like squat turtle to me. That ''might'' be your interpretation of its appearance, but not mine - nor most people, it seems.
:::{{User:Arend/sig}} 23:21, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::It's not a ball, though, it's a flattened shape reminiscent of a turtle's torso. Anyways, I got the name thing mixed up, corrected above, but that does change a few things. That being said, I don't think the images (that weren't exactly the easiest thing to find all(?) the valid colors of and animate correctly, I may add) should be completely deleted from the wiki in any case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:35, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I could see maybe one Togezo image being used in the trivia section where this info ends up, but any more would feel excessive. This is a wiki that anyone can edit, so unfortunately, you don't own your contributions and they aren't made immune to removal just because you put a lot of effort into them. If you don't want your work to go to waste though, what's stopping you from putting it on WiKirby? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:09, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::WiKirby politics. Either way, I'm always against outright deletion - images should be moved, articles should be redirected. Even if all the images were to go onto the "List of blah blah blah" pages. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:04, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::I suppose that the sprites could be moved to [[List of references in Nintendo video games#Kirby series]], where Togezo is also being covered (may need to be rewritten slightly if the proposal succeeds, given that it still treats Togezo as the same thing as Spiny). {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:46, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::I disagree that Togezo was conceived as a Mario reference, at least with the lack of information given. Just leave it in Spiny's trivia section for the time being. Just do it like we did with [[Unibo]] looking like Gordo from Kirby (article is too small for a single line trivia, so it's a minor end sentence, but it's still basically a trivia point). As for sprites, we don't need all of them. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:07, July 21, 2024 (EDT)

According to the Japanese Wikia, there actually has been on and off confirmation that ''Kirby'' Togezo is a guest appearance of ''Mario'' Spiny. Specifically, it mentions [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A3_%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E5%85%A8%E7%99%BE%E7%A7%91 this 1998 Shogakukan book] as one of the sources. I don't have this book, so I can't verify the info myself now. But if there are official sources out there with this claim, I'd say that effectively negates the proposal. Given its unpersoning later in the series, I can believe that it's accurate info. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:53, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
:That would certainly change my impression, but I would feel more comfortable with seeing the page where this is said in the book. Hopefully it surfaces somewhere. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:27, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::If a scan is found and the statement is direct, I think that's enough to outright overturn the proposal, no? Though I doubt we'll find out for sure before the proposal ends... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::I agree. While I understand their perspective, I have less trepidations about the Shogakukan guidebooks than SmokedChili. To me, if Nintendo asserts that Togezo is a Spiny, it is a Spiny, even if they no longer consider that the case in retrospect. However, I really would prefer having a scan of the page and page number because if they say something along the lines of it being "based" on the ''Mario'' Spiny, rather than being 1-to-1, than we are right back where we were. And I am not particularly bothered with the material being removed in the meantime, personally. Not much would be lost that could not be restored later when we have the reference material we need. I have been trying to get in contact with the folks at WiKirby to assess whether anyone there is familiar with or even has this book. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:51, July 21, 2024 (EDT)

@Blinker: My stance is that we really don't even know if it was based on Spiny or not in the first place, let alone whether it's a variant or not. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:09, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
: Yeah, if we don't know if it was based off of Spiny, we shouldn't be speculating that it is. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:23, July 21, 2024 (EDT)

: I mean, yeah, technically we don't know for sure if the enemy from Kirby's Dream Land 3 that has the same Japanese name as Spiny, has a red shell with light colored spikes like Spiny, and used to be called "Spiny" in Japanese, is based on Spiny, but come on... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:13, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::I am not sure I agree a subject based on another means it is a "variant" of it. In my view, that is like saying {{iw|zeldawiki|Talon}} or {{iw|fzerowiki|Mr. EAD}} are legitimate forms of Mario. But I am still curious in the language used in this Shogakukan guidebook mentioned by LinkTheLefty. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:49, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::I too am curious about the guide, and other possible sources LinkTheLefty may be alluding to. It could very much change the outcome of the proposal if it confirms the Togezo = Spiny claim. {{User:Arend/sig}} 10:27, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::I'd still take it with a grain of salt. That book is from the コロタン文庫 ''Korotan Bunko'' book series which along with its sister series ビッグ・コロタン ''Big Korotan'' still gets new releases and is tied to CoroCoro Comic. Even if it was a Shogakukan publication, its status would be the same as those of other publishers' game encyclopedias and strategy guides that are not Nintendo Official Guidebooks, the 90's ones at least (that goes for [[Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]] as well). Then there's [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E6%98%9F%E3%81%AE%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A3_%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E5%A4%A7%E5%9B%B3%E9%91%91 Kadokawa's 30th Kirby Anniv. Character Encyclopedia] where Togezo is not listed as a guest. We also don't know if Kirby 3 official guide mentions if Togezo is a guest, or if Spiny all the way from Kirby's Adventure is a guest, or even if the Wikia is in the right splitting the two. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 16:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::The book was released by Shogakukan in 1999, though, by which point they were definitely an official partner for guidebooks. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::That's irrelevant to the Korotan books because they're not part of Nintendo Official Guidebook series and thus a tier below them so to speak. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 10:51, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::<s>I beg your pardon, but I don't see anything about it being part of the Korotan series on there. Where did you get that information? I'd like to see for myself.</s> Never mind, I see it, the pink corner box on the cover. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:43, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Even so, I'd sooner trust a guide made when Sakurai and Shimomura were still at HAL and their games were still relatively fresh. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)

Now, there's something else I just remembered. Most (if not all) enemies from Kirby's Adventure have names derived from English words. Bomber, Flamer, Bubbles, Laser Ball, Blade Knight, and so on. Now, this is just speculation, but that could explain why they went with "Spiny" rather than "Togezo". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:19, July 21, 2024 (EDT)

@Pseudo: I feel like to err on the side of caution would be to not assume Togezo is Spiny without evidence. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:13, July 21, 2024 (EDT)

I would just like to add for those interested that I have been digging through the Kirby Wikia site and other online depositories like the Internet Archives, shopping sites, YouTube, etc. to determine if this book has any in-depth online presence (so far, no luck). However, I wanted to note some of the observations I have so far.
#Kirby Wikia treat the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%91%E3%82%A4%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC enemy in ''Kirby's Adventure''] (which I will refer to subsequently as "Supani" just for clarification) and the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%82%B2%E3%82%BE%E3%83%BC one from ''Kirby's Dream Land 3''] (which "Togezo" narrowly refers to for the remainder of this post) as separate creatures, whereas WiKirby and Super Mario Wiki treat them as the same. This likely is because they have always gone by different names in Japan. In a retrospective [https://archive.org/details/kirby-pupupu-daizen-20th-anniversary-encyclopedia-art-book/page/n27/mode/2up Japanese encyclopedia published in 2012 for ''Kirby''{{'}}s 20th anniversary], they list all of the enemies for each game, and they still adhere to the different names from ''Kirby's Adventure'' and ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' on pages 29 and 54, respectively. I do not know if there are ''Kirby'' enemies that have undergone changes in name where they are updated in retrospective, so the different names could simply derive from their desire to stick to language used for each respective game, but it could also indicate that Supani and Togenzo are intended to be different creatures. This is important because some of the arguments raised in this proposal derive from the enemy's appearance in ''Kirby's Adventure'', a game not known to include explicit cameos to related franchises. ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', however, does, including {{iw|wikirby|Samus}}, {{iw|wikirby|Donbe & Hikari|Donbe, Hikari}}, {{iw|wikirby|Chao & Goku|Chao, Goku}}, {{iw|wikirby|R.O.B. & Professor Hector|R.O.B., and Professor Hector}}. So if one understood Togezo to be an enemy that was first introduced in ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', it is not too strange to think it could be a "guest enemy".
#Again, ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' does include explicit cameos from other franchises, but a big difference between them and Togezo is that they are very literal interpretations of the characters. They were not radically "stylized" to fit in ''Kirby''{{'}}s worlds. If Togezo truly was ''the'' Spiny from ''Super Mario Bros.'', it is very strange for it to not look 1-to-1 with its appearance in the ''Mario'' platformers, or at least look unambiguously like a turtle. To me (and seemingly others), Togezo looks far more comparable to traditional ''Kirby'' enemies, as a helmeted black orb in shoes, than it does to Spiny. As viewable {{iw|wikirby|Kirby's Dream Land 3/gallery|here}}, so many enemies in ''KDL3'' specifically are amorphous round creatures with little eyes and of ambiguous species, much like Togezo. The only enemy that is definitely a "guest" in the game is the {{iw|wikirby|Metroid}}, which, as one can see {{iw|wikirby|File:KDL3 Metroid Sprite.png|here}}, looks exactly the same as it does in its home series, making Togezo's derivative design all the more odd in contrast.
#Kirby Wikia themselves do not claim Togezo literally is Spiny on their page, and rather interpret the material available to them neutrally. While they do not dismiss the Shogakukan 1998 book, they note that subsequent material does not recognize Togezo as a guest character. Some may think this was a choice made in retrospect, and that Togezo was always intended to be ''the'' Spiny. However, it does not make too much sense given the explicit inclusion of other guest characters like Samus. Like, it would not be inappropriate to note it as such, so why change that? An alternative interpretation is that, because Togezo shares the same name as the ''Mario'' Spiny in Japanese, the editors and authors of the book made a mistake, that a distinct enemy <u>based</u> on ''Mario''{{'}}s Spiny literally <u>is</u> a Spiny. Because we currently do not have this book, and based on the observations I previously outlined, I am leaning towards the latter interpretation: that the 1998 Shogakukan book misinterpreted the identity of this enemy. It would just make most sense with how other guest characters are incorporated in the game and the distinctiveness of Togezo's design. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:08, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
:At this point, I would make the following suggestion: current information is sufficient to cancel the proposal and implement the changes, and if notable information surfaces at a later date, we can make a discussion then and determine if it is direct and unambiguous enough to undo the changes. It's almost certain that we won't get all of the needed info before the proposal ends. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:12, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:All fair points. I want to add a neutral point: prior to Needlous, Supaini was "replaced" in K64 with a near-equivalent, {{iw|wikirby|Punc}}. It looks basically like Supaini/Togezo but with the ''Mario'' influence filed off, making it look like you guys were describing them: a black orb with a spiked helmet, rather than a flattened black oval with a spiked turtle shell. It rolls by bending its helmet into pillbug-like segments and is much slower at rolling than Supaini was, but I'd find it odd they wouldn't just treat it as an appearance of Supaini/Togezo rather than a suspiciously similar enemy (in a game ''full'' of returning enemies, especially from KDL3) if they hadn't found some reason to stop using Supaini/Togezo. The only other similar case is {{iw|wikirby|Sosuke}} being replaced with {{iw|wikirby|Bumber}}, which has the excuse of Parasol no longer being a copy ability and thus wanting to distance from that, and I guess not wanting to model {{iw|wikirby|Blipper}}'s goggles and instead adding in the mildly similar {{iw|wikirby|Flopper}} as the main "fish" enemy... and I'm not going to entertain the notion that Ado and Adeleine are different characters, so I won't count that, nor will I count NZs replacing Waddle Dees since they were imagined as a singular character for that game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:52, July 23, 2024 (EDT)

So, apparently Kirby's Dream Land 3 actually has (another) reference to the Mario series with ''{{iw|wikirby|Hibanamodoki}}''. These characters greatly resemble the Mario series's Fire Flowers, and the name literally translated to "pseudo fire flower". Now, the interesting part is that Fire Flowers aren't normally called ''Hibana'' ("fire flower"), but ''Faia Furawā'', which is just the English words "Fire Flower". Now, I find this interesting, because 1. Dream Land 3's names are more often derived from Japanese than Adventure's and 2. the ''modoki'' ("pseudo") in the name implies that the ''Hibana'' ("fire flower") name is being used to refer directly to the Mario series Fire Flower, as otherwise they'd simply be called ''Hibana'' ("fire flower") without the ''modoki'' ("pseudo"). Sorry, I know I wrote that a bit confusingly, but the point is that this shows that the devs were willing to change the names of elements from the Mario series from Japanese in origin to English in origin or vice-versa, either to more closely match the style of names in the game in question, or, who knows, just for fun. Uh, does that make sense? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:25, July 23, 2024 (EDT)