Editing Talk:Spiny

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Based on discussions as seen [[Talk:King Bob-omb#Trade & Battle: Card Hero|here]] and [[MarioWiki:Proposals#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]]. So, since 2019 (as seen in [[#Kirby series|a discussion above]]), the ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemy [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] has been considered as an appearance of Spiny (like, the one from the ''Super Mario'' franchise), and thus, Togezo gets coverage on the Spiny page as if its appearances in the ''Kirby'' series are actually cameo appearances of Spiny; based on the fact that its helmet resembles a [[Spiny Shell]], it can curl up into a spiky ball that resembles a [[Spiny Egg]], and it uses the Japanese name of Spiny for its own name (and the English name for Spiny as Togezo's Japanese name in its debut). Frankly, however, I think that at most, these are mere ''references'' to Spiny, rather than Togezo actually being ''the same thing'' as Spiny.

#{{User|Hewer}} Was considering proposing this myself but you beat me to it. Anyway, per proposal and per my comments [[MarioWiki:Proposals#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]].

#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all; I'd prefer to err on the side of caution before removing something like this.

#Kirby Wikia treat the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%91%E3%82%A4%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC enemy in ''Kirby's Adventure''] (which I will refer to subsequently as "Supani" just for clarification) and the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%82%B2%E3%82%BE%E3%83%BC one from ''Kirby's Dream Land 3''] as separate creatures, whereas WiKirby and Super Mario Wiki treat them as the same. This likely is because they have always gone by different names in Japan. In a retrospective [https://archive.org/details/kirby-pupupu-daizen-20th-anniversary-encyclopedia-art-book/page/n27/mode/2up Japanese encyclopedia published in 2012 for ''Kirby''{{'}}s 20th anniversary], they list all of the enemies for each game, and they still adhere to the different names from ''Kirby's Adventure'' and ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' on pages 29 and 54, respectively. I do not know if there are ''Kirby'' enemies that have undergone changes in name where they are updated in retrospective, so the different names could simply derive from their desire to stick to language used for each respective game, but it could also indicate that Supani and Togenzo are intended to be different creatures. This is important because some of the arguments raised in this proposal derive from the enemy's appearance in ''Kirby's Adventure'', a game not known to include explicit cameos to related franchises. ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', however, does, including {{iw|wikirby|Samus}}, {{iw|wikirby|Donbe & Hikari}}, {{iw|wikirby|Chao & Goku}}, and {{iw|wikirby|R.O.B. & Professor Hector}}. So if one understood Togezo to be an enemy introduced in ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' that did not emerge beforehand, it is is not as strange to think it could be a "guest enemy".

#Again, ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' does include explicit cameos from other franchises, but a big difference between them and Togezo is that they are very literal interpretations of the characters. They were not radically "stylized" to fit in ''Kirby''{{'}}s worlds. If Togezo truly was ''the'' Spiny from ''Super Mario Bros.'', it is very strange for it to not look 1-to-1 with its appearance in the ''Mario'' platformers, or at least look unambiguously like a turtle. To me (and seemly others), Togezo looks far more comparable to traditional ''Kirby'' enemies, as a helmeted black orb in shoes, than it does to Spiny. As viewable {{iw|wikirby|Kirby's Dream Land 3/gallery|here}}, so many enemies in ''KDL3'' specifically are amorphous round creatures with little eyes and of ambiguous species, much like Togezo. The only enemy that is definitely a "guest" in the game is the {{iw|wikirby|Metroid}}, which, as one can see {{iw|wikirby|File:KDL3 Metroid Sprite.png|here}}, looks exactly the same as it does in its home series, making Togezo's derivative design all the more odd in contrast.

#Kirby Wikia themselves do not claim Togezo literally is Spiny on their page, and rather interpret the material available to them neutrally. While they do not dismiss the Shogakukan 1998 book, they note that subsequent material does not recognize Togezo as a guest character. Some may think this was a choice made in retrospect, and that Togezo was always intended to be ''the'' Spiny. However, it does not make too much sense given the explicit inclusion of other guest characters like Samus. Like, it would not be inappropriate to note it as such, so why change that? An alternative interpretation is that, because Togezo shares the same name as the ''Mario'' Spiny in Japanese, the editors and authors of the book made a mistake, that a distinct enemy <u>based</u> on ''Mario''{{'}}s Spiny literally <u>is</u> a Spiny. Because we currently do not have this book, and based on the observations I previously outlined, I am leaning towards the latter interpretation: that the 1998 Shogakukan book misinterpreted the identity of this enemy. It just would make most sense with how other guest characters are incorporated in the game and the distinctiveness of Togezo's design. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:08, July 22, 2024 (EDT)