Editing Talk:Spiny

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== Stop considering [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] (''Kirby'' series enemy) to be the same as Spiny ==
== Stop considering [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] (''Kirby'' series enemy) to be the same as Spiny ==


{{Settled TPP}}
{{TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|18-3|do not consider Togezo to be Spiny}}
Based on discussions as seen [[Talk:King Bob-omb#Trade & Battle: Card Hero|here]] and [[MarioWiki:Proposals#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]]. So, since 2019 (as seen in [[#Kirby series|a discussion above]]), the ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemy [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] has been considered as an appearance of Spiny (like, the one from the ''Super Mario'' franchise), and thus, Togezo gets coverage on the Spiny page as if its appearances in the ''Kirby'' series are actually cameo appearances of Spiny; based on the fact that its helmet resembles a [[Spiny Shell]], it can curl up into a spiky ball that resembles a [[Spiny Egg]], and it uses the Japanese name of Spiny for its own name (and the English name for Spiny as Togezo's Japanese name in its debut). Frankly, however, I think that at most, these are mere ''references'' to Spiny, rather than Togezo actually being ''the same thing'' as Spiny.
Based on discussions as seen [[Talk:King Bob-omb#Trade & Battle: Card Hero|here]] and [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]]. So, since 2019 (as seen in [[#Kirby series|a discussion above]]), the ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemy [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] has been considered as an appearance of Spiny (like, the one from the ''Super Mario'' franchise), and thus, Togezo gets coverage on the Spiny page as if its appearances in the ''Kirby'' series are actually cameo appearances of Spiny; based on the fact that its helmet resembles a [[Spiny Shell]], it can curl up into a spiky ball that resembles a [[Spiny Egg]], and it uses the Japanese name of Spiny for its own name (and the English name for Spiny as Togezo's Japanese name in its debut). Frankly, however, I think that at most, these are mere ''references'' to Spiny, rather than Togezo actually being ''the same thing'' as Spiny.


Appearance-wise, Togezo looks virtually ''nothing'' like a Spiny. Aside from the spiky helmet, and its curled up version resembling a Spiny Egg (which is just a spiked ball), it's a black ball with oval feet and oval dot eyes. Spinies are yellow-skinned, quadruped turtles, typically with a couple toes. That alone should signify that Togezo and Spiny aren't really the same thing, but some would say that the black color of Togezo alludes to Spiny's shadowed face, as seen in its sprites for ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (and its 16-bit rerelease in ''Super Mario All-Stars''), and ''Super Mario World''. However, it's only in those sprites where Spiny is shown with a black face. In artworks, Spiny is typically shown with a face in the same color as its feet, alluding that Spiny's head isn't shadowed at all, with only [[:File:SMBSpiny.jpg|one early artwork]] showing it with a red face instead (this red face may also allude to a shadowed face, as it mimics the [[:File:SMB Spiny Sprite.gif|sprite colors]] of the original ''Super Mario Bros.''.. though its [[:File:SMASSMBSpinySprite.png|''Super Mario All-Stars'' sprite]] depicts its head as the same color as its feet too, no red or black head). Meanwhile, Togezo's artwork ''always'' depicts its body with a black color.
Appearance-wise, Togezo looks virtually ''nothing'' like a Spiny. Aside from the spiky helmet, and its curled up version resembling a Spiny Egg (which is just a spiked ball), it's a black ball with oval feet and oval dot eyes. Spinies are yellow-skinned, quadruped turtles, typically with a couple toes. That alone should signify that Togezo and Spiny aren't really the same thing, but some would say that the black color of Togezo alludes to Spiny's shadowed face, as seen in its sprites for ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (and its 16-bit rerelease in ''Super Mario All-Stars''), and ''Super Mario World''. However, it's only in those sprites where Spiny is shown with a black face. In artworks, Spiny is typically shown with a face in the same color as its feet, alluding that Spiny's head isn't shadowed at all, with only [[:File:SMBSpiny.jpg|one early artwork]] showing it with a red face instead (this red face may also allude to a shadowed face, as it mimics the [[:File:SMB Spiny Sprite.gif|sprite colors]] of the original ''Super Mario Bros.''.. though its [[:File:SMASSMBSpinySprite.png|''Super Mario All-Stars'' sprite]] depicts its head as the same color as its feet too, no red or black head). Meanwhile, Togezo's artwork ''always'' depicts its body with a black color.
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#{{User|Sparks}} Per Arend.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Arend.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal and the comments I made in the talk page Arend cites above. (EDIT: As found by LinkTheLefty on the Kirby Wikia site, there is supposedly a Japanese source from 1998 that states Togezo is ''Mario''{{'}}s Spiny, but we only know this through second-hand reporting and there may be issues with this particular book as explained by SmokedChili. From my research on ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', subsequent books released, and information Sparks shared with me from the folks over at WiKirby, I am inclined to think that if such a claim really exists in this book, it was a mistake. No subsequent work available to me suggests it is not a wholly original ''Kirby'' enemy.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal and the comments I made in the talk page Arend cites above.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We think this only caught on the way it did because of the similar treatment Nintendo's had with [[Chain Chomp]]s appearing in Zelda games--however, unlike Spiny/Togezo, this link (hah.) has actually been confirmed to be fully intentional, and has been something they've kept up for as recently as the Link's Awakening remake on Switch. In stark contrast, Nintendo is a lot more cagey if Togezo is a reference to Spiny, and hasn't exactly kept up with it in a good, long while.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We think this only caught on the way it did because of the similar treatment Nintendo's had with [[Chain Chomp]]s appearing in Zelda games--however, unlike Spiny/Togezo, this link (hah.) has actually been confirmed to be fully intentional, and has been something they've kept up for as recently as the Link's Awakening remake on Switch. In stark contrast, Nintendo is a lot more cagey if Togezo is a reference to Spiny, and hasn't exactly kept up with it in a good, long while.
#{{User|Hewer}} Was considering proposing this myself but you beat me to it. Anyway, per proposal and per my comments [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]].
#{{User|Hewer}} Was considering proposing this myself but you beat me to it. Anyway, per proposal and per my comments [[MarioWiki:Proposals#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]].
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
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#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} The resemblances aren't established. Information like this is good fit on a trivia section.
#{{User|Mario}} The resemblances aren't established. Information like this is good fit on a trivia section.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|Shadow2}} Wait, we DO THIS?! Whaaaaaaat?
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal. Too speculative.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all, especially Nintendo101's findings.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all.
#{{User|Axis}} Took me a while to decide, but it really seems there is no direct connection to Spiny. Same Japanese name is something that should be noted in trivia, and the enemies have a distinct enough appearance that it wouldn't be fair for us to imply they're the same (or that one is based on the other).


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
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#{{User|Blinker}} There's a lot of discussion over whether or not these are regular Spinies, and that's fair, but there's another problem with this proposal, I think. The proposal aims to entirely remove the Kirby appearances from the History section, and simply mention them as a trivia point. Now, even if we say this isn't literally a regular Spiny, I don't think it would be controversial to say that it is at least directly based on one. In other words, a variant. And take a look at [[Rex#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|this section]] on Rex's article. No regular Rexes appear in this game, but it is still considered a part of the enemy's history. I feel like this is a similar case. Whether or not these are regular Spinies, this is still a part of the enemy's history, right?
#{{User|Blinker}} There's a lot of discussion over whether or not these are regular Spinies, and that's fair, but there's another problem with this proposal, I think. The proposal aims to entirely remove the Kirby appearances from the History section, and simply mention them as a trivia point. Now, even if we say this isn't literally a regular Spiny, I don't think it would be controversial to say that it is at least directly based on one. In other words, a variant. And take a look at [[Rex#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|this section]] on Rex's article. No regular Rexes appear in this game, but it is still considered a part of the enemy's history. I feel like this is a similar case. Whether or not these are regular Spinies, this is still a part of the enemy's history, right?
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} As mentioned in the comments, second-hand information indicates that at least one 90's-era guide made a statement on the matter.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} As mentioned in the comments, second-hand information indicates that at least one 90's-era guide made a statement on the matter.
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all; I'd prefer to err on the side of caution before removing something like this.</strike> Hewer has a point in the comments, and the fact that the Japanese and English names are actually swapped between the two makes this seem a lot more likely to be a reference, rather than a direct cameo.


====Comments====
====Comments====
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:That would certainly change my impression, but I would feel more comfortable with seeing the page where this is said in the book. Hopefully it surfaces somewhere. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:27, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:That would certainly change my impression, but I would feel more comfortable with seeing the page where this is said in the book. Hopefully it surfaces somewhere. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:27, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::If a scan is found and the statement is direct, I think that's enough to outright overturn the proposal, no? Though I doubt we'll find out for sure before the proposal ends... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::If a scan is found and the statement is direct, I think that's enough to outright overturn the proposal, no? Though I doubt we'll find out for sure before the proposal ends... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::I agree. While I understand their perspective, I have less trepidations about the Shogakukan guidebooks than SmokedChili. To me, if Nintendo asserts that Togezo is a Spiny, it is a Spiny, even if they no longer consider that the case in retrospect. However, I really would prefer having a scan of the page and page number because if they say something along the lines of it being "based" on the ''Mario'' Spiny, rather than being 1-to-1, than we are right back where we were. And I am not particularly bothered with the material being removed in the meantime, personally. Not much would be lost that could not be restored later when we have the reference material we need. I have been trying to get in contact with the folks at WiKirby to assess whether anyone there is familiar with or even has this book. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:51, July 21, 2024 (EDT)


@Blinker: My stance is that we really don't even know if it was based on Spiny or not in the first place, let alone whether it's a variant or not. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:09, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
@Blinker: My stance is that we really don't even know if it was based on Spiny or not in the first place, let alone whether it's a variant or not. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:09, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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::::I'd still take it with a grain of salt. That book is from the コロタン文庫 ''Korotan Bunko'' book series which along with its sister series ビッグ・コロタン ''Big Korotan'' still gets new releases and is tied to CoroCoro Comic. Even if it was a Shogakukan publication, its status would be the same as those of other publishers' game encyclopedias and strategy guides that are not Nintendo Official Guidebooks, the 90's ones at least (that goes for [[Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]] as well). Then there's [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E6%98%9F%E3%81%AE%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A3_%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E5%A4%A7%E5%9B%B3%E9%91%91 Kadokawa's 30th Kirby Anniv. Character Encyclopedia] where Togezo is not listed as a guest. We also don't know if Kirby 3 official guide mentions if Togezo is a guest, or if Spiny all the way from Kirby's Adventure is a guest, or even if the Wikia is in the right splitting the two. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 16:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::I'd still take it with a grain of salt. That book is from the コロタン文庫 ''Korotan Bunko'' book series which along with its sister series ビッグ・コロタン ''Big Korotan'' still gets new releases and is tied to CoroCoro Comic. Even if it was a Shogakukan publication, its status would be the same as those of other publishers' game encyclopedias and strategy guides that are not Nintendo Official Guidebooks, the 90's ones at least (that goes for [[Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]] as well). Then there's [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E6%98%9F%E3%81%AE%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A3_%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E5%A4%A7%E5%9B%B3%E9%91%91 Kadokawa's 30th Kirby Anniv. Character Encyclopedia] where Togezo is not listed as a guest. We also don't know if Kirby 3 official guide mentions if Togezo is a guest, or if Spiny all the way from Kirby's Adventure is a guest, or even if the Wikia is in the right splitting the two. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 16:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::The book was released by Shogakukan in 1999, though, by which point they were definitely an official partner for guidebooks. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::The book was released by Shogakukan in 1999, though, by which point they were definitely an official partner for guidebooks. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::That's irrelevant to the Korotan books because they're not part of Nintendo Official Guidebook series and thus a tier below them so to speak. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 10:51, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::<s>I beg your pardon, but I don't see anything about it being part of the Korotan series on there. Where did you get that information? I'd like to see for myself.</s> Never mind, I see it, the pink corner box on the cover. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:43, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Even so, I'd sooner trust a guide made when Sakurai and Shimomura were still at HAL and their games were still relatively fresh. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Even so, I'd sooner trust a guide made when Sakurai and Shimomura were still at HAL and their games were still relatively fresh. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)


Now, there's something else I just remembered. Most (if not all) enemies from Kirby's Adventure have names derived from English words. Bomber, Flamer, Bubbles, Laser Ball, Blade Knight, and so on. Now, this is just speculation, but that could explain why they went with "Spiny" rather than "Togezo". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:19, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
Now, there's something else I just remembered. Most (if not all) enemies from Kirby's Adventure have names derived from English words. Bomber, Flamer, Bubbles, Laser Ball, Blade Knight, and so on. Now, this is just speculation, but that could explain why they went with "Spiny" rather than "Togezo". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:19, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
@Pseudo: I feel like to err on the side of caution would be to not assume Togezo is Spiny without evidence. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:13, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
I would just like to add for those interested that I have been digging through the Kirby Wikia site and other online depositories like the Internet Archives, shopping sites, YouTube, etc. to determine if this book has any in-depth online presence (so far, no luck). However, I wanted to note some of the observations I have so far.
#Kirby Wikia treat the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%91%E3%82%A4%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC enemy in ''Kirby's Adventure''] (which I will refer to subsequently as "Supani" just for clarification) and the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%82%B2%E3%82%BE%E3%83%BC one from ''Kirby's Dream Land 3''] (which "Togezo" narrowly refers to for the remainder of this post) as separate creatures, whereas WiKirby and Super Mario Wiki treat them as the same. This likely is because they have always gone by different names in Japan. In a retrospective [https://archive.org/details/kirby-pupupu-daizen-20th-anniversary-encyclopedia-art-book/page/n27/mode/2up Japanese encyclopedia published in 2012 for ''Kirby''{{'}}s 20th anniversary], they list all of the enemies for each game, and they still adhere to the different names from ''Kirby's Adventure'' and ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' on pages 29 and 54, respectively. I do not know if there are ''Kirby'' enemies that have undergone changes in name where they are updated in retrospective, so the different names could simply derive from their desire to stick to language used for each respective game, but it could also indicate that Supani and Togenzo are intended to be different creatures. This is important because some of the arguments raised in this proposal derive from the enemy's appearance in ''Kirby's Adventure'', a game not known to include explicit cameos to related franchises. ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', however, does, including {{iw|wikirby|Samus}}, {{iw|wikirby|Donbe & Hikari|Donbe, Hikari}}, {{iw|wikirby|Chao & Goku|Chao, Goku}}, {{iw|wikirby|R.O.B. & Professor Hector|R.O.B., and Professor Hector}}. So if one understood Togezo to be an enemy that was first introduced in ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', it is not too strange to think it could be a "guest enemy".
#Again, ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' does include explicit cameos from other franchises, but a big difference between them and Togezo is that they are very literal interpretations of the characters. They were not radically "stylized" to fit in ''Kirby''{{'}}s worlds. If Togezo truly was ''the'' Spiny from ''Super Mario Bros.'', it is very strange for it to not look 1-to-1 with its appearance in the ''Mario'' platformers, or at least look unambiguously like a turtle. To me (and seemingly others), Togezo looks far more comparable to traditional ''Kirby'' enemies, as a helmeted black orb in shoes, than it does to Spiny. As viewable {{iw|wikirby|Kirby's Dream Land 3/gallery|here}}, so many enemies in ''KDL3'' specifically are amorphous round creatures with little eyes and of ambiguous species, much like Togezo. The only enemy that is definitely a "guest" in the game is the {{iw|wikirby|Metroid}}, which, as one can see {{iw|wikirby|File:KDL3 Metroid Sprite.png|here}}, looks exactly the same as it does in its home series, making Togezo's derivative design all the more odd in contrast.
#Kirby Wikia themselves do not claim Togezo literally is Spiny on their page, and rather interpret the material available to them neutrally. While they do not dismiss the Shogakukan 1998 book, they note that subsequent material does not recognize Togezo as a guest character. Some may think this was a choice made in retrospect, and that Togezo was always intended to be ''the'' Spiny. However, it does not make too much sense given the explicit inclusion of other guest characters like Samus. Like, it would not be inappropriate to note it as such, so why change that? An alternative interpretation is that, because Togezo shares the same name as the ''Mario'' Spiny in Japanese, the editors and authors of the book made a mistake, that a distinct enemy <u>based</u> on ''Mario''{{'}}s Spiny literally <u>is</u> a Spiny. Because we currently do not have this book, and based on the observations I previously outlined, I am leaning towards the latter interpretation: that the 1998 Shogakukan book misinterpreted the identity of this enemy. It would just make most sense with how other guest characters are incorporated in the game and the distinctiveness of Togezo's design. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:08, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
:At this point, I would make the following suggestion: current information is sufficient to cancel the proposal and implement the changes, and if notable information surfaces at a later date, we can make a discussion then and determine if it is direct and unambiguous enough to undo the changes. It's almost certain that we won't get all of the needed info before the proposal ends. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:12, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:All fair points. I want to add a neutral point: prior to Needlous, Supaini was "replaced" in K64 with a near-equivalent, {{iw|wikirby|Punc}}. It looks basically like Supaini/Togezo but with the ''Mario'' influence filed off, making it look like you guys were describing them: a black orb with a spiked helmet, rather than a flattened black oval with a spiked turtle shell. It rolls by bending its helmet into pillbug-like segments and is much slower at rolling than Supaini was, but I'd find it odd they wouldn't just treat it as an appearance of Supaini/Togezo rather than a suspiciously similar enemy (in a game ''full'' of returning enemies, especially from KDL3) if they hadn't found some reason to stop using Supaini/Togezo. The only other similar case is {{iw|wikirby|Sosuke}} being replaced with {{iw|wikirby|Bumber}}, which has the excuse of Parasol no longer being a copy ability and thus wanting to distance from that, and I guess not wanting to model {{iw|wikirby|Blipper}}'s goggles and instead adding in the mildly similar {{iw|wikirby|Flopper}} as the main "fish" enemy... and I'm not going to entertain the notion that Ado and Adeleine are different characters, so I won't count that, nor will I count NZs replacing Waddle Dees since they were imagined as a singular character for that game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:52, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
So, apparently Kirby's Dream Land 3 actually has (another) reference to the Mario series with ''{{iw|wikirby|Hibanamodoki}}''. These characters greatly resemble the Mario series's Fire Flowers, and the name literally translated to "pseudo fire flower". Now, the interesting part is that Fire Flowers aren't normally called ''Hibana'' ("fire flower"), but ''Faia Furawā'', which is just the English words "Fire Flower". Now, I find this interesting, because 1. Dream Land 3's names are more often derived from Japanese than Adventure's and 2. the ''modoki'' ("pseudo") in the name implies that the ''Hibana'' ("fire flower") name is being used to refer directly to the Mario series Fire Flower, as otherwise they'd simply be called ''Hibana'' ("fire flower") without the ''modoki'' ("pseudo"). Sorry, I know I wrote that a bit confusingly, but the point is that this shows that the devs were willing to change the names of elements from the Mario series from Japanese in origin to English in origin or vice-versa, either to more closely match the style of names in the game in question, or, who knows, just for fun. Uh, does that make sense? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:25, July 23, 2024 (EDT)

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