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| == Stop considering [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] (''Kirby'' series enemy) to be the same as Spiny == | | == Stop considering [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] (''Kirby'' series enemy) to be the same as Spiny == |
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| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|18-3|do not consider Togezo to be Spiny}}
| | Based on discussions as seen [[Talk:King Bob-omb#Trade & Battle: Card Hero|here]] and [[MarioWiki:Proposals#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]]. So, since 2019 (as seen in [[#Kirby series|a discussion above]]), the ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemy [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] has been considered as an appearance of Spiny (like, the one from the ''Super Mario'' franchise), and thus, Togezo gets coverage on the Spiny page as if its appearances in the ''Kirby'' series are actually cameo appearances of Spiny; based on the fact that its helmet resembles a [[Spiny Shell]], it can curl up into a spiky ball that resembles a [[Spiny Egg]], and it uses the Japanese name of Spiny for its own name (and the English name for Spiny as Togezo's Japanese name in its debut). Frankly, however, I think that at most, these are mere ''references'' to Spiny, rather than Togezo actually being ''the same thing'' as Spiny. |
| Based on discussions as seen [[Talk:King Bob-omb#Trade & Battle: Card Hero|here]] and [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]]. So, since 2019 (as seen in [[#Kirby series|a discussion above]]), the ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemy [[wikirby:Togezo|Togezo]] has been considered as an appearance of Spiny (like, the one from the ''Super Mario'' franchise), and thus, Togezo gets coverage on the Spiny page as if its appearances in the ''Kirby'' series are actually cameo appearances of Spiny; based on the fact that its helmet resembles a [[Spiny Shell]], it can curl up into a spiky ball that resembles a [[Spiny Egg]], and it uses the Japanese name of Spiny for its own name (and the English name for Spiny as Togezo's Japanese name in its debut). Frankly, however, I think that at most, these are mere ''references'' to Spiny, rather than Togezo actually being ''the same thing'' as Spiny. | |
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| Appearance-wise, Togezo looks virtually ''nothing'' like a Spiny. Aside from the spiky helmet, and its curled up version resembling a Spiny Egg (which is just a spiked ball), it's a black ball with oval feet and oval dot eyes. Spinies are yellow-skinned, quadruped turtles, typically with a couple toes. That alone should signify that Togezo and Spiny aren't really the same thing, but some would say that the black color of Togezo alludes to Spiny's shadowed face, as seen in its sprites for ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (and its 16-bit rerelease in ''Super Mario All-Stars''), and ''Super Mario World''. However, it's only in those sprites where Spiny is shown with a black face. In artworks, Spiny is typically shown with a face in the same color as its feet, alluding that Spiny's head isn't shadowed at all, with only [[:File:SMBSpiny.jpg|one early artwork]] showing it with a red face instead (this red face may also allude to a shadowed face, as it mimics the [[:File:SMB Spiny Sprite.gif|sprite colors]] of the original ''Super Mario Bros.''.. though its [[:File:SMASSMBSpinySprite.png|''Super Mario All-Stars'' sprite]] depicts its head as the same color as its feet too, no red or black head). Meanwhile, Togezo's artwork ''always'' depicts its body with a black color. | | Appearance-wise, Togezo looks virtually ''nothing'' like a Spiny. Aside from the spiky helmet, and its curled up version resembling a Spiny Egg (which is just a spiked ball), it's a black ball with oval feet and oval dot eyes. Spinies are yellow-skinned, quadruped turtles, typically with a couple toes. That alone should signify that Togezo and Spiny aren't really the same thing, but some would say that the black color of Togezo alludes to Spiny's shadowed face, as seen in its sprites for ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (and its 16-bit rerelease in ''Super Mario All-Stars''), and ''Super Mario World''. However, it's only in those sprites where Spiny is shown with a black face. In artworks, Spiny is typically shown with a face in the same color as its feet, alluding that Spiny's head isn't shadowed at all, with only [[:File:SMBSpiny.jpg|one early artwork]] showing it with a red face instead (this red face may also allude to a shadowed face, as it mimics the [[:File:SMB Spiny Sprite.gif|sprite colors]] of the original ''Super Mario Bros.''.. though its [[:File:SMASSMBSpinySprite.png|''Super Mario All-Stars'' sprite]] depicts its head as the same color as its feet too, no red or black head). Meanwhile, Togezo's artwork ''always'' depicts its body with a black color. |
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| #{{User|Sparks}} Per Arend. | | #{{User|Sparks}} Per Arend. |
| #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal | | #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal |
| #{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal and the comments I made in the talk page Arend cites above. (EDIT: As found by LinkTheLefty on the Kirby Wikia site, there is supposedly a Japanese source from 1998 that states Togezo is ''Mario''{{'}}s Spiny, but we only know this through second-hand reporting and there may be issues with this particular book as explained by SmokedChili. From my research on ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', subsequent books released, and information Sparks shared with me from the folks over at WiKirby, I am inclined to think that if such a claim really exists in this book, it was a mistake. No subsequent work available to me suggests it is not a wholly original ''Kirby'' enemy. | | #{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal and the comments I made in the talk page Arend cites above. |
| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We think this only caught on the way it did because of the similar treatment Nintendo's had with [[Chain Chomp]]s appearing in Zelda games--however, unlike Spiny/Togezo, this link (hah.) has actually been confirmed to be fully intentional, and has been something they've kept up for as recently as the Link's Awakening remake on Switch. In stark contrast, Nintendo is a lot more cagey if Togezo is a reference to Spiny, and hasn't exactly kept up with it in a good, long while. | | #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We think this only caught on the way it did because of the similar treatment Nintendo's had with [[Chain Chomp]]s appearing in Zelda games--however, unlike Spiny/Togezo, this link (hah.) has actually been confirmed to be fully intentional, and has been something they've kept up for as recently as the Link's Awakening remake on Switch. In stark contrast, Nintendo is a lot more cagey if Togezo is a reference to Spiny, and hasn't exactly kept up with it in a good, long while. |
| #{{User|Hewer}} Was considering proposing this myself but you beat me to it. Anyway, per proposal and per my comments [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Standardize the coverage of elements from guest appearance titles|here]].
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
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| #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: I don't recall HAL ever confirming Togezo was Spiny. Speculation.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Mario}} The resemblances aren't established. Information like this is good fit on a trivia section.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Shadow2}} Wait, we DO THIS?! Whaaaaaaat?
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| #{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal. Too speculative.
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all, especially Nintendo101's findings.
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| #{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Axis}} Took me a while to decide, but it really seems there is no direct connection to Spiny. Same Japanese name is something that should be noted in trivia, and the enemies have a distinct enough appearance that it wouldn't be fair for us to imply they're the same (or that one is based on the other).
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| ====Oppose==== | | ====Oppose==== |
| #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per [[#Kirby series|the reasons LTL added it here to begin with]], and my reasons below. | | #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Per the reasons LTL added it here to begin with, and my reasons below. |
| #{{User|Blinker}} There's a lot of discussion over whether or not these are regular Spinies, and that's fair, but there's another problem with this proposal, I think. The proposal aims to entirely remove the Kirby appearances from the History section, and simply mention them as a trivia point. Now, even if we say this isn't literally a regular Spiny, I don't think it would be controversial to say that it is at least directly based on one. In other words, a variant. And take a look at [[Rex#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|this section]] on Rex's article. No regular Rexes appear in this game, but it is still considered a part of the enemy's history. I feel like this is a similar case. Whether or not these are regular Spinies, this is still a part of the enemy's history, right?
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} As mentioned in the comments, second-hand information indicates that at least one 90's-era guide made a statement on the matter.
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| <strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all; I'd prefer to err on the side of caution before removing something like this.</strike> Hewer has a point in the comments, and the fact that the Japanese and English names are actually swapped between the two makes this seem a lot more likely to be a reference, rather than a direct cameo.
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| ====Comments==== | | ====Comments==== |
| {{multiframe|[[File:SpinySMB3.gif]][[File:KA Spiny VV4A.gif]]|Look the same to me}}
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| The "reasons below":<br>
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| -Same name in lang-of-origin and general appearance.<br>-Rolls into ball, like a Spiny Egg<br>-Sprite resembles Spiny's SMB3 and SMW sprite (ie relatively recent games when KA was released).<br>-Iconic enemy from the creator's parent company's biggest money-maker. Coincidence from that alone is nigh-impossible.<br>-Sakurai's next Kirby game, ''Kirby Super Star'', was ''full'' of references to ''Mario'' and other Nintendo properties.<br>-Replaced in later iteration (with some fat caterpillar called Needlouse), as happened with the similar guest-appearance-masquerading-poorly-as-an-OC Capsule J from KSS (who was {{wp|Twinbee}} in all but name); why else would it have been replaced? It doesn't have Phan-Phan's excuse of being an anime tie-in (admittedly Gip replacing Bounder is still puzzling); it's worth noting that at that point Sakurai's opinion of Nintendo proper was strained at best, leading to his resignation in the same period.<br>-Just as similar as the Spinies in ''The Legend of Zelda'' games, which also had some very off-kilter differences, especially in behavior.<br>-[[Para-Beetle|Number of]] [[Spike Top|limbs doesn't]] [[Bony Beetle|matter]]. This just helps it more fit in with the ''Kirby'' aesthetic.<br>---[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:20, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :The fact that several of these points were directly addressed in the proposal leads me to believe you didn't even read it before posting this comment. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 21:28, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I did, and much of what you say is blatantly untrue. For instance saying it looks "nothing" like a Spiny when it looks "almost exactly" like a contemporary Spiny. Now, I'll be fine with stopping considering the KDL3 ones alone to be the same rather than simply based on them, since the lang-of-orig is different there (being the English name instead) and they are ''slightly'' differentiated more than the KA/KDC ones. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:40, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I encourage folks to maintain {{wp|good faith}}.
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| :::Doc, I think you know that media is interpretative and there is no objectivity in saying Togezo looks "almost exactly" like a Spiny. Personally, I am open to the idea that it is ''inspired'' by the Koopa enemy in the same way Capsule J is based on TwinBee, but that does not mean it is ontologically the same creature, and this goes beyond the number of feet. Our Spiny is essentially a turtle, not an orb with four feet. That even remains the case in ''Zelda''. Togezo is a helmeted black orb in shoes. As outlined in this proposal, their means of attack are not truly one-to-one either. Even if you do not agree with that interpretation, I do not think it is an invalid one. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:12, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::By "false" I more meant "incorrect" rather than "you are attempting to deceive me," but point taken, I got a little heated there. My apologies. Regardless, I don't see that as an "orb," it's a flattened turtle-body shape. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :This is tangential, because I find the point it is attached to very weak (the fact that HAL replaced multiple ''Kirby's Adventure'' enemies with new ones in ''Nightmare in Dream Land'', not just Togezo, makes it a moot point), but {{iw|wikirby|Phan Phan}} was not incorporated to promote the anime. ''Nightmare in Dream Land'' was released in 2002 and the first episode with Phan Phan was "{{iw|wikirby|Cowardly Creature}}" and that first aired in 2003. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:38, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Well "animation lead time" is a thing. ...though that makes me wonder the motivation for replacing the cool turtle with the fugly uncanny valley elephant head even more than it already did. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:52, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::[https://wikirby.com/wiki/File:E94_Scene_9.png Look what you've done to him]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:12, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::''Yis ah am ratha handsome''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::Game development is not a quick job either, even for a remake. I realistically could see both projects having begun development around the same time. <s>Also, Rolling Turtle doesn't look particularly "cool" to me. Its buck teeth and jolly disposition make it rather (endearingly) silly to me, kinda like Phan Phan, though not nearly as much as, say, Sillydillo. I personally find Kabula a lot cooler</s> {{User:Arend/sig}} 23:21, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :In response to "the reasons below":
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| :*Already addressed; Togezo's Japanese name was initially Spiny while the English name is Togezo. The two names bring swapped for the regions implies that the creature is a reference rather than the same as Spiny.
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| :*Already addressed; Togezo only rolls up like a ball in ''Kirby's Adventure'', Spiny couldn't roll up into a ball on its own until ''Paper Mario'' and ''New Super Mario Bros.'', long after Togezo had been phased out (yeah, Spiny Eggs exist as long as Spines did, but prior to PM, Spinies only ''emerged'' from them)
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| :*Already addressed; Aside from the black face and the spiky helmet, Togezo doesn't resemble Spiny at all, and artwork of Spiny never showed it with a black face while it ''always'' showed Togezo with one.
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| :*HAL Laboratory did not develop any of the ''Super Mario'' titles and little of the ''Kirby's Adventure'' staff worked on ''Mario'' games (e.g. none of the credited character designers, Takashi Saito, Shigeru Hashiguchi, Tadashi Hashikura, Kazu Ozawa, Kazuya Miura, were ''Mario'' alumni), weakening the idea that Togezo was intended to be the same as Spiny.
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| :*Literally irrelevant to the conversation, as Togezo did not appear in ''Kirby Super Star'' in the slightest. Even then, reference =/= actual cameo appearance.
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| :*The very fact that Bounder was replaced by Gip already breaks this point, since copyright infringement or anime tie-ins have nothing to do with that, meaning it does not have to be the reason for Togezo being replaced. In addition, implying that Togezo was replaced for similar reasons as Capsule J literally makes no sense, since as you said, HAL Laboratory is a 2nd-party Nintendo company, meaning them using Mario references is fine (e.g. Kabula in ''Kirby Super Star Ultra'' uses bullets that resemble Banzai Bill). TwinBee, meanwhile, is from ''Konami'' (and Capsule J-2 was later usurped by Capsule J-3 in ''Kirby: Planet Robobot'' when it didn't need to, since Capsule J-2 was already copyright-safe). Also, [[wikirby:Needlous|Needlous]] was already addressed (and correctly spelled), no need for a re-introduction.
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| :*Except that unlike Togezo, Spiky Beetles actually ''do'' somewhat resemble Spinies, in the fact that they're quadrupeds and wear shells the same way Spinies do. Plus that ''Link's Awakening'' on Switch confirms that they're Spinies, and we still don't have official confirmation about that on Togezo.
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| :*All the examples you've shown are not only ''not'' the same thing as Spiny, they're not even Spiny ''variants''. Please show an example where Spiny (not a variant of Spiny, nor a Buzzy Beetle or any if its variants; a true, bona fide, ''regular'' Spiny) has shown an amount of limbs that's irregular from the typical 4. If you can only show that with subspecies of an admittedly closely related species, that wouldn't really give proof that Togezo is the same case. Also it wouldn't really explain why it's got oval feet instead of three-toed turtle paws now, or why its whole head became its body now.
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| :{{User:Arend/sig}} 22:20, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Bing bong
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| ::*False, <s>KA and KDC were Togezo, KDL3 were Spiny. This is true for all regions. This is why I'd be fine with demoting the KDL3 version only.</s> I got these mixed up, silly Docky. OK, switch that then.
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| ::*Spiny Eggs were always depicted as "rolled up" Spinies in sprites and artwork.
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| ::*It literally does, I really don't understand where this "they look nothing alike" viewpoint comes from.
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| ::*So? Same goes for KSS, but we're not saying Mario-and-friends in the crowd aren't them because that'd be silly.
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| ::*That's not the point, the point is that it means they're not shy about references.
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| ::*Grr, I ''thought'' Needlous didn't have an "e," but I miscorrected myself (granted it's such a "lousy" replacement it still fits). I still believe that was changed with some sort of purpose, though word from Sakurai would be nice in that regard.
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| ::*Spiny Beetles normally don't have heads either, LANS was an exception.
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| ::*Squat turtles is squat turtles, that's the point I was making. The other things? ''Stylization'' - like that thing about Spiny Beetles lacking heads.
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| ::[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:30, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::*Please provide a source: Togezo's Wikirby article certainly doesn't claim that it was called "Spiny" ANWHERE outside of the Japanese version of Kirby's Adventure, let alone ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' in sny region.
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| :::*If you're referring to Togezo artwork, I can only find two pieces of artwork, and they certainly don't look like "rolled up" Spinies to me. Again, the only time they actually roll up and resemble a Spiny Egg was in ''Kirby's Adventure''.
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| :::*It literally does not. Again, as addressed before, the only thing they have in common is the spiked helmet/shell. Togezo resembles a black ball with Kirby feet, while Spiny is a yellow quadruped turtle, woth a head and tail, and toes on its feet. The black head only appears in-game in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and ''World'', but is depicted as red very early on, and the same yellow/orange skintone in every other instance, while Togezo is always depicted as black.
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| :::*That's true... though, that brings up a different counterpoint: Mario and co in the audience in KSS actually ''resemble'' Mario and co. Togezo does not, it's """"stylized"""" as you'd like to claim. Also, as you said yourself, ''Kirby Super Star'' is chock full of references to other Nintendo games, whereas ''Kirby's Adventure'' is not
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| :::*''Kirby Super Star'' is also like the sixth-seventh Kirby title released; of course they won't be shy about more blatant references. Meanwhile, ''Kirby's Adventure'' is only Kirby title number 2. These are vastly different games made in different times.
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| :::*Fair enough, I suppose.
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| :::*LANS stylization is literally based on those of the original LAGB(C) sprites, though. We can see that with the Goombas from [[:File:Links Awakening Switch Goombas.png|pre-release]] until [[:File:Goombas LANS screenshot.jpg|final game]]. Then again, original LA gave Spiked Beetle only four sharp spikes on it shell, so I guess it's a fair point.
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| :::*Yeah, except that Togezo doesn't really look like squat turtle to me. That ''might'' be your interpretation of its appearance, but not mine - nor most people, it seems.
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| :::{{User:Arend/sig}} 23:21, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::It's not a ball, though, it's a flattened shape reminiscent of a turtle's torso. Anyways, I got the name thing mixed up, corrected above, but that does change a few things. That being said, I don't think the images (that weren't exactly the easiest thing to find all(?) the valid colors of and animate correctly, I may add) should be completely deleted from the wiki in any case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:35, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::I could see maybe one Togezo image being used in the trivia section where this info ends up, but any more would feel excessive. This is a wiki that anyone can edit, so unfortunately, you don't own your contributions and they aren't made immune to removal just because you put a lot of effort into them. If you don't want your work to go to waste though, what's stopping you from putting it on WiKirby? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:09, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::WiKirby politics. Either way, I'm always against outright deletion - images should be moved, articles should be redirected. Even if all the images were to go onto the "List of blah blah blah" pages. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:04, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::I suppose that the sprites could be moved to [[List of references in Nintendo video games#Kirby series]], where Togezo is also being covered (may need to be rewritten slightly if the proposal succeeds, given that it still treats Togezo as the same thing as Spiny). {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:46, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::I disagree that Togezo was conceived as a Mario reference, at least with the lack of information given. Just leave it in Spiny's trivia section for the time being. Just do it like we did with [[Unibo]] looking like Gordo from Kirby (article is too small for a single line trivia, so it's a minor end sentence, but it's still basically a trivia point). As for sprites, we don't need all of them. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:07, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| According to the Japanese Wikia, there actually has been on and off confirmation that ''Kirby'' Togezo is a guest appearance of ''Mario'' Spiny. Specifically, it mentions [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A3_%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E5%85%A8%E7%99%BE%E7%A7%91 this 1998 Shogakukan book] as one of the sources. I don't have this book, so I can't verify the info myself now. But if there are official sources out there with this claim, I'd say that effectively negates the proposal. Given its unpersoning later in the series, I can believe that it's accurate info. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:53, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
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| :That would certainly change my impression, but I would feel more comfortable with seeing the page where this is said in the book. Hopefully it surfaces somewhere. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:27, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::If a scan is found and the statement is direct, I think that's enough to outright overturn the proposal, no? Though I doubt we'll find out for sure before the proposal ends... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I agree. While I understand their perspective, I have less trepidations about the Shogakukan guidebooks than SmokedChili. To me, if Nintendo asserts that Togezo is a Spiny, it is a Spiny, even if they no longer consider that the case in retrospect. However, I really would prefer having a scan of the page and page number because if they say something along the lines of it being "based" on the ''Mario'' Spiny, rather than being 1-to-1, than we are right back where we were. And I am not particularly bothered with the material being removed in the meantime, personally. Not much would be lost that could not be restored later when we have the reference material we need. I have been trying to get in contact with the folks at WiKirby to assess whether anyone there is familiar with or even has this book. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:51, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Blinker: My stance is that we really don't even know if it was based on Spiny or not in the first place, let alone whether it's a variant or not. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:09, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| : Yeah, if we don't know if it was based off of Spiny, we shouldn't be speculating that it is. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:23, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| : I mean, yeah, technically we don't know for sure if the enemy from Kirby's Dream Land 3 that has the same Japanese name as Spiny, has a red shell with light colored spikes like Spiny, and used to be called "Spiny" in Japanese, is based on Spiny, but come on... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:13, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I am not sure I agree a subject based on another means it is a "variant" of it. In my view, that is like saying {{iw|zeldawiki|Talon}} or {{iw|fzerowiki|Mr. EAD}} are legitimate forms of Mario. But I am still curious in the language used in this Shogakukan guidebook mentioned by LinkTheLefty. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:49, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I too am curious about the guide, and other possible sources LinkTheLefty may be alluding to. It could very much change the outcome of the proposal if it confirms the Togezo = Spiny claim. {{User:Arend/sig}} 10:27, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::I'd still take it with a grain of salt. That book is from the コロタン文庫 ''Korotan Bunko'' book series which along with its sister series ビッグ・コロタン ''Big Korotan'' still gets new releases and is tied to CoroCoro Comic. Even if it was a Shogakukan publication, its status would be the same as those of other publishers' game encyclopedias and strategy guides that are not Nintendo Official Guidebooks, the 90's ones at least (that goes for [[Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]] as well). Then there's [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E6%98%9F%E3%81%AE%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A3_%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E5%A4%A7%E5%9B%B3%E9%91%91 Kadokawa's 30th Kirby Anniv. Character Encyclopedia] where Togezo is not listed as a guest. We also don't know if Kirby 3 official guide mentions if Togezo is a guest, or if Spiny all the way from Kirby's Adventure is a guest, or even if the Wikia is in the right splitting the two. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 16:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::The book was released by Shogakukan in 1999, though, by which point they were definitely an official partner for guidebooks. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:40, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::That's irrelevant to the Korotan books because they're not part of Nintendo Official Guidebook series and thus a tier below them so to speak. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 10:51, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::<s>I beg your pardon, but I don't see anything about it being part of the Korotan series on there. Where did you get that information? I'd like to see for myself.</s> Never mind, I see it, the pink corner box on the cover. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:43, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::Even so, I'd sooner trust a guide made when Sakurai and Shimomura were still at HAL and their games were still relatively fresh. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:18, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| Now, there's something else I just remembered. Most (if not all) enemies from Kirby's Adventure have names derived from English words. Bomber, Flamer, Bubbles, Laser Ball, Blade Knight, and so on. Now, this is just speculation, but that could explain why they went with "Spiny" rather than "Togezo". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:19, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Pseudo: I feel like to err on the side of caution would be to not assume Togezo is Spiny without evidence. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:13, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
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| I would just like to add for those interested that I have been digging through the Kirby Wikia site and other online depositories like the Internet Archives, shopping sites, YouTube, etc. to determine if this book has any in-depth online presence (so far, no luck). However, I wanted to note some of the observations I have so far.
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| #Kirby Wikia treat the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%91%E3%82%A4%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC enemy in ''Kirby's Adventure''] (which I will refer to subsequently as "Supani" just for clarification) and the [https://kirby.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%82%B2%E3%82%BE%E3%83%BC one from ''Kirby's Dream Land 3''] (which "Togezo" narrowly refers to for the remainder of this post) as separate creatures, whereas WiKirby and Super Mario Wiki treat them as the same. This likely is because they have always gone by different names in Japan. In a retrospective [https://archive.org/details/kirby-pupupu-daizen-20th-anniversary-encyclopedia-art-book/page/n27/mode/2up Japanese encyclopedia published in 2012 for ''Kirby''{{'}}s 20th anniversary], they list all of the enemies for each game, and they still adhere to the different names from ''Kirby's Adventure'' and ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' on pages 29 and 54, respectively. I do not know if there are ''Kirby'' enemies that have undergone changes in name where they are updated in retrospective, so the different names could simply derive from their desire to stick to language used for each respective game, but it could also indicate that Supani and Togenzo are intended to be different creatures. This is important because some of the arguments raised in this proposal derive from the enemy's appearance in ''Kirby's Adventure'', a game not known to include explicit cameos to related franchises. ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', however, does, including {{iw|wikirby|Samus}}, {{iw|wikirby|Donbe & Hikari|Donbe, Hikari}}, {{iw|wikirby|Chao & Goku|Chao, Goku}}, {{iw|wikirby|R.O.B. & Professor Hector|R.O.B., and Professor Hector}}. So if one understood Togezo to be an enemy that was first introduced in ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'', it is not too strange to think it could be a "guest enemy".
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| #Again, ''Kirby's Dream Land 3'' does include explicit cameos from other franchises, but a big difference between them and Togezo is that they are very literal interpretations of the characters. They were not radically "stylized" to fit in ''Kirby''{{'}}s worlds. If Togezo truly was ''the'' Spiny from ''Super Mario Bros.'', it is very strange for it to not look 1-to-1 with its appearance in the ''Mario'' platformers, or at least look unambiguously like a turtle. To me (and seemingly others), Togezo looks far more comparable to traditional ''Kirby'' enemies, as a helmeted black orb in shoes, than it does to Spiny. As viewable {{iw|wikirby|Kirby's Dream Land 3/gallery|here}}, so many enemies in ''KDL3'' specifically are amorphous round creatures with little eyes and of ambiguous species, much like Togezo. The only enemy that is definitely a "guest" in the game is the {{iw|wikirby|Metroid}}, which, as one can see {{iw|wikirby|File:KDL3 Metroid Sprite.png|here}}, looks exactly the same as it does in its home series, making Togezo's derivative design all the more odd in contrast.
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| #Kirby Wikia themselves do not claim Togezo literally is Spiny on their page, and rather interpret the material available to them neutrally. While they do not dismiss the Shogakukan 1998 book, they note that subsequent material does not recognize Togezo as a guest character. Some may think this was a choice made in retrospect, and that Togezo was always intended to be ''the'' Spiny. However, it does not make too much sense given the explicit inclusion of other guest characters like Samus. Like, it would not be inappropriate to note it as such, so why change that? An alternative interpretation is that, because Togezo shares the same name as the ''Mario'' Spiny in Japanese, the editors and authors of the book made a mistake, that a distinct enemy <u>based</u> on ''Mario''{{'}}s Spiny literally <u>is</u> a Spiny. Because we currently do not have this book, and based on the observations I previously outlined, I am leaning towards the latter interpretation: that the 1998 Shogakukan book misinterpreted the identity of this enemy. It would just make most sense with how other guest characters are incorporated in the game and the distinctiveness of Togezo's design. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:08, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :At this point, I would make the following suggestion: current information is sufficient to cancel the proposal and implement the changes, and if notable information surfaces at a later date, we can make a discussion then and determine if it is direct and unambiguous enough to undo the changes. It's almost certain that we won't get all of the needed info before the proposal ends. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:12, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| :All fair points. I want to add a neutral point: prior to Needlous, Supaini was "replaced" in K64 with a near-equivalent, {{iw|wikirby|Punc}}. It looks basically like Supaini/Togezo but with the ''Mario'' influence filed off, making it look like you guys were describing them: a black orb with a spiked helmet, rather than a flattened black oval with a spiked turtle shell. It rolls by bending its helmet into pillbug-like segments and is much slower at rolling than Supaini was, but I'd find it odd they wouldn't just treat it as an appearance of Supaini/Togezo rather than a suspiciously similar enemy (in a game ''full'' of returning enemies, especially from KDL3) if they hadn't found some reason to stop using Supaini/Togezo. The only other similar case is {{iw|wikirby|Sosuke}} being replaced with {{iw|wikirby|Bumber}}, which has the excuse of Parasol no longer being a copy ability and thus wanting to distance from that, and I guess not wanting to model {{iw|wikirby|Blipper}}'s goggles and instead adding in the mildly similar {{iw|wikirby|Flopper}} as the main "fish" enemy... and I'm not going to entertain the notion that Ado and Adeleine are different characters, so I won't count that, nor will I count NZs replacing Waddle Dees since they were imagined as a singular character for that game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:52, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| So, apparently Kirby's Dream Land 3 actually has (another) reference to the Mario series with ''{{iw|wikirby|Hibanamodoki}}''. These characters greatly resemble the Mario series's Fire Flowers, and the name literally translated to "pseudo fire flower". Now, the interesting part is that Fire Flowers aren't normally called ''Hibana'' ("fire flower"), but ''Faia Furawā'', which is just the English words "Fire Flower". Now, I find this interesting, because 1. Dream Land 3's names are more often derived from Japanese than Adventure's and 2. the ''modoki'' ("pseudo") in the name implies that the ''Hibana'' ("fire flower") name is being used to refer directly to the Mario series Fire Flower, as otherwise they'd simply be called ''Hibana'' ("fire flower") without the ''modoki'' ("pseudo"). Sorry, I know I wrote that a bit confusingly, but the point is that this shows that the devs were willing to change the names of elements from the Mario series from Japanese in origin to English in origin or vice-versa, either to more closely match the style of names in the game in question, or, who knows, just for fun. Uh, does that make sense? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:25, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
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