Editing Talk:Spiked Thwomp

== Echoes of Wisdom enemy "Platboom" ==

{{talk}}
So, the new Zelda game, "Echoes of Wisdom", has an enemy called [[zeldawiki:Platboom|Platboom]], which is clearly based on these Thwomps. They're blocks with one eye, a flat surface on top, and spikes on the bottom. They act like Thwomps, trying to crush things under them. And their Japanese and Korean names (as listed by Zelda Wiki) follow a similar naming scheme to many Thwomp relatives ("''don''" and "''kung''", respectively). To what extent should that enemy be covered on this wiki? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:29, October 10, 2024 (EDT)
:The [[Bob-omb]] article mentions similar enemies that appeared in other games, including ''The Legend of Zelda''. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to add an "Other appearances" section and list this enemy under that. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 16:32, October 10, 2024 (EDT)
::The only issue with that is that this article as a whole is about a Zelda enemy (although I would argue that this is just supposed to be an alternate design for Thwomps, that's neither here nor there), so the entire article would be "Other appearances" section material by that comparison, wouldn't it? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:40, October 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::The Chinese name also seems like it might be based on Spiked Thwomp's Japanese name. Anyway, I'd treat it like the ''Four Swords'' Manhandla: technically its own variant, but safer to draw the new-article line at ''Zelda'' variants of ''Zelda'' variants. Though that leaves the question of Stone Elevator, which seems like it was originally derived from Mega Thwomp and looks like its own counterpart to Platboom... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:07, October 11, 2024 (EDT)
::::Stone Elevator is a bit different. The guide says "See also Thwomp" at the end of Stone Elevator's description. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 09:15, October 11, 2024 (EDT) 
:Are there any sources that directly say or imply it's a Thwomp relative though? [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 09:11, October 11, 2024 (EDT)

== Merge to Thwomp ==
{{TPP}}
This proposal aims to merge this page to [[Thwomp]], with the reasoning that this enemy is simply these games' interpretation of a Thwomp. 
* "Spiked Thwomps" behave just like normal Thwomps, falling in an attempt to crush Link when approached.
* The guide that provided the name "Spiked Thwomp" also refers to Thwimps as "Thwomps", to Spinies as "Spiked Beetles", and to Shy Guys as "Mask-Mimics".
* This enemy's Japanese name, as found by LinkTheLefty, simply refers to it as "One-Eyed Thwomp". In other words, it's just a Thwomp with a somewhat different appearance. You might be thinking that that justifies considering it a different enemy, except...
* The Thwimps (referred to by the aforementioned guide as "Thwomps") in these games also only have one eye, and are currently covered on [[Thwimp]].
* Mario enemies in Zelda games tend to look and behave differently than normal. For example, Shy Guys mimic Link's movement, Lakitus attack with lightning, Spinies have black or blue shells, Thwimps attack by falling from above, etc.
* While Thwomps also appear in a different Zelda game (Four Swords Adventures) with a different appearance, it should be noted that it is very common in the Zelda series for enemies to have very different appearances between games.

<gallery>
TLOZFSSpikedBeetleSprite.png|A "Spiked Beetle" (Spiny) in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap, for reference.
Thwomp-Link's Awakening.png|A Thwimp in the Link's Awakening remake.
</gallery>

'''Proposer''': {{User|Blinker}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal. (I've been wanting to do this for a bit, the Link's Awakening Japanese name being found made it seem more doable)
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I personally want to wait and see if Spiked Thwomp and regular Thwomp appear in the same game together (this could be likelier than you think, considering ''Echoes of Wisdom'' seems to be based on ''Link's Awakening'' remake and ''A Link Between Worlds'' assets); until then, this seems to make more sense for the wiki's purposes.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Axii}} Both Thwomps and Spiked Thwomps appear in ''Link's Awakening'' [https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/Spiked_Thwomp][https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/Thwomp]. Despite having a similar design, they're clearly different. To quote Zelda Wiki, "Like other Thwomps, they drop down when Link approaches, attempting to crush him from above. Their top surface is flat however, and can be used as a platform to reach higher areas." Even if they're technically Thwimps, it doesn't change the fact that Spiked Thwomp's top surface is flat.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Axii, it feels a stretch to say this isn't its own variant.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.

===Comments===
Was the "Hitotsume" used in prose or as a label/title for an enemy list? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:52, October 12, 2024 (EDT)
:I [[Special:Diff/4394193#Names in other languages|initially]] cited the Shogakukan ''Oracle of Seasons'' enemy list before switching to the Shogakukan ''Oracle of Ages'' guide released on the same day since it has fuller furigana; the latter page lists the full name and a shorter one under two separate screenshot captions. For the record, it's listed as「ひとつ目ドッスン」in ''Link's Awakening'' original (pg.108) and ''DX'' (pg.101) Shogakukan guides. A few more notes for the proposal.
*The original Shogakukan guide for ''Link's Awakening'' states this in the「コトン」(Coton/Thwimp) description (pg.108):「プチサイズのドッスン。」(''A mini-sized Thwomp.'') In Shogakukan's ''DX''-version guide, this was updated to (on pg.102):「ひとつ目ドッスンのミニサイズ。」(''One-eyed Thwomp's mini size.'') The original Shogakukan guide is interesting since it seems it slips in a few early names; for example, it mentions「スタルローブ」(Stal Robe) in the description of「ドクロナイト・ソード」(Stal Knight Sword / Sword Stalfos) on pg.106 despite the base enemy being labled as「ドクロナイト」(Stal Knight / Shrouded Stalfos) on pg.105. This is cleaned up in the ''DX''-version guide.
*「コトン」(Coton/Thwimp) is in the enemy list of the ''Oracle of Seasons'' Shogakukan guide (pg.124), but no relation is mentioned. (As mentioned by the proposal, this is a flat-out reworked version of Thwimp.) Spiked Thwomp also had its Japanese name slightly adjusted, though this was eventually reverted in Nintendo DREAM's official ''Link's Awakening'' Switch-remake guide; regardless, of the ''Zelda'' Thwomps, it's the one with the name closest to the original.
*The ''Mario'' series itself flip-flops on whether Thwomps have harmful spikes or if they're flat-edged. As far as I know, the two types haven't appeared together in the same game <small>EDIT: ''Super Mario Maker 2'', albeit via the game style mechanic</small>, though usually, the harmful-to-touch ones are also harmful to stand on. This notably results in one of the few doubled infoboxes.
*''Four Swords Adventures'' has an implementation of Thwomps that are more standard-looking, acting like Spiked Thwomps but looking more like Mega Thwomps. The Shogakukan guide calls it「ドッスン」(pg.14), though if it's supposed to be a basic Thwomp; the Shogakukan guide also labels what should be「リーバー」(Leever) and「デビランド」(Deviland/Devalant) as「ピーハット」(Peahat) on pg.15 and「モルドアーム」(Moldorm) on pg.16, respectively (note that normal Peahats and Swamolas do not appear). This oddity carried over the ''Hyrule Encyclopedia'', which brings us to...
*''The Legend of Zelda Encyclopedia'' (2017/2018). It's hard to discuss this because, unlike ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'', it and ''Art & Artifacts'' essentially resulted in its own wiki. Axii's oppose vote proves my point exactly: ''Zelda Encyclopedia'' models itself after Zelda Wiki and reorganizes ''LA''/''OoS''「コトン」(pg.176) and ''FSA''「ドッスン」(pg.190) together as "Thwomp" (pg.209). In fact, the book's entire database portion has been reorganized to reflect the old segregate-canon-by-region mentality, which is a nightmare sorting through. However, both the Japanese and English versions list「ひとつ目ドスン」(pg.196) and "Spiked Thwomp" (pg.205) separately. The question is, is that reliable? Well, as mentioned, it doesn't take the opportunity to correct the ''Four Swords Adventures'' mix-ups. More relevant to this wiki: in the Japanese version, appearances of Chain Chomp are listed separately as「ケルビン」on pg.174 and「ワンワン」on pg.213 and don't even refer to each other, which is flagrantly misleading and even goes against the very original source. Basically, the book's authors were free to take liberties with the source material. This isn't my word; it's literally in their disclaimer. In essence, most of the book had little oversight by Nintendo, and that was by design. My stance: I trust the information corroborated by other sources, like that revised timeline that first showed up here; exclusive info, not so much.
If this passes, I'd be fine with making that Platboom article; if it fails, Thwimp should also be considered a variant of Spiked Thwomp. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:02, October 12, 2024 (EDT)
:I wouldn't be fine making a Platboom article - its Japanese name doesn't indicate anything about it being related to Thwomp. It'd be Bombite all over again. {{User:Arend/sig}} 00:05, October 13, 2024 (EDT)
::"Don" as a suffix is commonly used as shorthand for "Dossun" in derivatives within the ''Super Mario'' games as well, though, like with [[Pouncer]] (Dodon) and [[Omodon]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:37, October 13, 2024 (EDT)
:::Adding to Doc's somewhat obscure examples, there's also [[Grindel]] ('''Don'''kaku), [[Spindel]] ('''Don'''guru), [[Bomp]] (Tsukidashi'''don'''), [[Tox Box]] (Onimasu'''don'''), [[Wallop]] ('''Don'''pyon), [[Stairface Ogre]] ('''Don'''suke) and [[Shoomp]] (Sli'''don'''). [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 08:03, October 13, 2024 (EDT)

{{@|Axii}} - Those "Thwomps" they refer to are actually the game's [[Thwimp]]s. Zeldawiki just doesn't care about language-of-origin as much as we do here, and thus is taking that inconsistent Player's Guide at face-value. Also, consider how in ''this'' series, Thwomps have gone from gray spiked rectangles to blue smooth cubes to teal spiked rectangles to gray spiked-or-smooth rectangles, so design consistency is a non-issue. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:38, October 12, 2024 (EDT)
:I was referring to Thwimps, actually. Also I'm not arguing in favor of design but instead enemy behavior in this case. The fact that it has a flat top isn't something Thwomps are known for. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 14:01, October 12, 2024 (EDT)
::Thwomps have a flat top in Super Mario Kart, Super Mario 64, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario 3D Land... and I'll stop there. The fact that something that would just three years later become part of the enemy (even if only half the time) in the Mario series started here is, in my view, if anything, an argument for, not against, this merge. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:06, October 12, 2024 (EDT)
:To be fair to the original book, they might've chosen "Thwomp" because they saw it as the unambiguous appearance of a member of the Thwomp family, and it's more recognizable than Thwimp. No one knew at the time that fans would try to sense of it years later on wikis over the internet, or that Dark Horse was gonna dark-horse. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:02, October 12, 2024 (EDT)

{{@|Hewer}} Why is that? Why is it a stretch for Thwomps but not Thwimps? (Or, I guess, Helmasaurs and Water Tektites, but let's focus on the Mario baddies.) [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:06, October 12, 2024 (EDT)
:It's mainly the ignoring of its different names that gives me that impression. It feels unjustified, especially since the appearance and behaviour are different too, so this enemy has all the makings of a variant. However, I admit I'm not very familiar with Zelda enemies in general. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:17, October 12, 2024 (EDT)
::The thing is, the "different name" specifically refers to its appearance, and let's just say Zelda enemies are a lot more malleable than Mario ones, presumably due to the frequently changing artstyle. For example:
::*The enemy currently known as "Helmasaur" has been depicted as a lizard/dinosaur-like reptile, as a Galoomba-like cartoon creature, as an insect, and as a round bird. Their main consistent trait is the mask they wear that protects them from the front, but some in Majora's Mask appear without them.
::*The enemy known in Japanese as "Mold(w)orm" has gone through many designs and about as many English names (Zelda Wiki will not help you with this one). It was originally depicted as a regular worm that lives in the sand, but in A Link to the Past they have eyes and mandibles and live in a swamp. In Phantom Hourglass, they're again worms living in the sand, but have a completely different behavior.
::*Ghomas have been variously depicted as spiders or crustaceans. The main consistent thing is that they're one-eyed arthropods.
::*Wizzrobes are wizards. Sometimes they wear witch hats, sometimes they don't. Their faces are usually hidden, but not always. In The Wind Waker, they look like birds. In Breath of the Wild, they look a bit like sharks.
::*Water Tektites have a pretty consistent behavior. In their debut, they had two eyes. Their 3D model seems to have interpreted their eyes as a pair of lips, leaving them eyeless. In Link's Awakening, they have a single eye.
::So you can see why I don't think a slightly different number of eyes should make this Thwomp a different enemy. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:59, October 13, 2024 (EDT)