Editing Talk:Spike Top

I'm not completely sure (I haven't played in a while), but don't Spike Tops appear in ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]''. -- [[User:Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

:Spike Tops first appeared in Super Mario World. And I'm pretty sure they appear in New Super Mario Bros., but someone else should confirm that. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]
:Yes, in many of the middle-world cave levels and later-world castles they cling to the surface, upside, side or downside. <span style="font-family:Kunstler Script; color:#006633;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Wayoshi|W]]'''ayoshi</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Wayoshi|T]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Wayoshi|C]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Emailuser/Wayoshi|@]] )</small> 16:42, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

I've played both games and they exist in both, but are far more annoying in [[Super Mario World]] because you can't kill 'em while they're on a block of some sort. {{unsigned|Big-bang}}

==Stats Infobox Formatting==
While the infoboxes in the Stats section usually look fine, the Super Paper Mario one extends towards the right past the article's border when there's a banner being displayed on the right side (for me, at least; I'm using Firefox and a 1024x768 resolution); besides looking strange, this results in much of it being covered by the banner, making it unreadable. I don't really know how to fix this without moving the infobox to the next row (which makes the formatting of that section look even worse than it already does), but if someone can think of a better solution, it'd be nice if that could be repaired. Any other article that has three infoboxes next to each other with similar formatting most likely suffers from this as well.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 15:37, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
:As far as I know, the three-infobox formatting is fine these days; it look ok for the two versions of Firefox I use (one on my computer, one on my bro's), at least... - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 12:23, 14 June 2011 (EDT)

==Combine Red Spiked Buzzy==
I think we should merge R.S.Buzzy because they are red and most Spike Tops are red. Besides theta article is a little short. We just merge the two articles. --[[File:YoshiMP8Artwork.png|35px]][[User:YoshiGo99|YoshiGo99]][[File:YoshiNSMBW.png|35px]] 07:37, 19 February 2011 (EST)

==Merge Spike Top and [[Red Spike Buzzy]]== 
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|4-10|Keep split}}

I'm gonna try this again the reason i feel that these two should be merged together is because there is very little difference between the regular Spike Tops and the Red Spike Buzzy both are red both have spikes on their heads and to top that off the Spike Tops in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. I would also like to point out that we have had mergers like this before such as [[Goby]] [[Shy Away]] etc. I think that there just isn't enough of a physical difference between the two to justify having two separate articles.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 29, 2011, 23:59 

===Merge===
#{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} Per Proposal
#{{User|YoshiGo99}} Per Proposal.
#{{User|Zero777}} I do remember that a specific type of Buzzy Beetle in PM:TTYD was called a Spike Top.
#{{User|Nicke8}} Per Goomba's Shoe15.

===Keep split===
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Rather than comparing this to [[Goby]], it should be compared to [[Mr. Kipper]], since it's not actually a naming issue, but a matter of sub-species: Spike Tops are found in ''PM:TTYD'' alongside Red Spike Buzzies, like how Goby/Cheep-Cheep were fund alongside the Mr. Kippers. Different (sub-)species get different articles, as with all RPG enemies.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per Walky.
#{{User|Reddragon19k}} - Per Walky! This is an oppose proposal so, I'm agreeing with Walky!
#{{User|Bop1996}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Magikrazy51}} This is exactly like that dumb proposal I accidentally made. Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Kaptain K. Rool}} - Per all
#{{User|SWFlash}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Holyromanemperortatan}}- Spinies and Spike Tops are related to each other but their not the same species. I mean, ''should we merge'' Goomba, Grand Goomba, Octoomba, Paragoomba, Gloomba, etc. together? No.
#{{User|Yoshiyoshiyoshi}} Per Walky,the paper mario ones just Look similar to the nsmb ones.It doesnt mean that theyre the same thing.

===Comments===
But different sub-species also don't look like every other Spike Top found in any other Mario game also they tend to have different stats {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
:(Every other game except ''SPM'', you mean). Anyway, I suppose this was done to make them stand out from normal Spike Tops, like how the [[KP Koopa]]s are different from normal Koopas (aisde from the colour, they're the same too, or at least the [[KP Paratroopa]]s are: the land-based Koopas apparently differ in using Shell Shot/Shell Toss). In both cases, I guess Nintendo didn't feel like making the Glitz Pit difference more than cosmetic, which is annoying, but Nintendo's like that sometimes, and without any official names being the same, there's not really anything we can do about that this time. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:01, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

would have made more sense just to make them blue considering how Spike tops are usually red and does any one know the Japanese name for Spike top
{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
:If you are looking for a Japanese name to justify merging, then I'd look at [[Talk:Boomerang Bro.#Comments|this]] for a full explanation of what gets an article in this situation. {{User:Bop1996/sig}} 19:32, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
:Also, the name you're looking for is in the Spike Top article. 19:33, 15 April 2011 (EDT) {{User:Mario4Ever/Sig}}
::Indeed it is: ''Togemetto'' for Spike Tops, ''Aka Togemetto'' for Red Spike Tops. 'Tis exactly the same naming convention as in English (and French and German, too). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:13, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

==Artwork Improvement==
I have already obtained the Mario Enclycopedia and I can't do a good scan of the Spike Top. Thus, that's why the current artwork has to be improved. Sledge Bro, Goomba, and Kamek got their artworks improved, and you left that Bowser Minion in the dust. So, you only have until Dec. 27 and January 11th to improve the Spike Top artwork, or I can't get any more Bowser Minions artwork or models. Think on it, please.--[[User:Hamshamcart|Hamshamcart]] ([[User talk:Hamshamcart|talk]]) 16:40, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
:For which game? Also, don't act so condescending. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:29, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]], Doc. Sorry for being condescending. ;)--[[User:Hamshamcart|Hamshamcart]] ([[User talk:Hamshamcart|talk]]) 19:12, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
I have the artwork I scanned from the SME. Feel free to top me with a better scan, Doc. --[[User:Hamshamcart|Hamshamcart]] ([[User talk:Hamshamcart|talk]]) 18:06, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
[[File:Spike Top.png|thumb]]
::You should have this be a new revision of the existing file, to be honest. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:09, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
{{br|right}}

== Split Spike Top (fast) from this article ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|canceled}}
If we're splitting "[[Talk:Note Block#Split Note Block and Music Block|Note Block but it makes different sounds]]" and "[[Talk:Koopa Clown Car#Split Fire Koopa Clown Car from this article|Koopa Clown Car but it spits fireballs]]", then I believe the teal-bodied, blue-shelled, faster Spike Tops also from ''Super Mario Maker'' are no exception.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Toadette the Achiever}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' March 18, 2019, 23:59 GMT<br>
'''Date withdrawn:''' March 4, 2019, 12:54 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I'm relieved that it's not just a regular Buzzy Beetle with a spike. Split.

===Oppose===
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per my comments.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Color variation with the same name. I believe both this and the PM thing (to which I added a merge template months ago) should be here. Color variations shouldn't get their own articles unless sufficiently unique, and these just have their movement value increased and a hue value alteration on their textures, so no. These should stay merged, and the "Red Spike Top"/"R.S. Buzzy" should be merged as well. Name is an important distinction, and ''these'' lack a distinction there. These are even more similar than red and green Troopas. Anyways, regarding Red Spike Buzzy, look at the "Profiles and statistics" section for, say, [[Snifit]] and see how all the colors are rightfully merged.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per opposition.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per Doc, and the fact that it may be too soon given ''Super Mario Maker 2'' will have names in text, which should be more reliable than the original's verbal names.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per LinkTheLefty.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per LinkTheLefty.

===Comments===
What does this blue variant look like? Because if it's just buzzy beetle with a spike, then I wouldn't be as supportive because that leaves out the Paper Mario stuff. And whaddwe do with [[Red Spike Top]]? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:25, 4 March 2019 (EST)
:[https://www.spriters-resource.com/wii_u/supermariomaker/sheet/70693/ Here you go.] Also, unlike this case, Red Spike Top should probably be merged with Spike Top, as it shares nearly every stat with regular Spike Tops in the game it appears in except for its Tattle. (But that's for another proposal.) {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 00:32, 4 March 2019 (EST)
::It's a color variation. Per how we didn't split the red and green Koopas. Red Spike Top should stay on its own article IMO. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:51, 4 March 2019 (EST)
:::You're not making an ounce of sense. These shouldn't be split because they're "a color variation," but Red Spike Tops, which are ''also'' a color variation and have zero differences from the other Spike Tops in ''TTYD'' outside of that, ''do'' deserve their own article? How can you possibly justify that? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 02:11, 4 March 2019 (EST)
::::I meant that the previous proposal failed, so i'm kinda confused for the PM one since i'm kinda not hyped if fails a second time... --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:15, 4 March 2019 (EST)
:::::So? That proposal is almost eight years old; there's nothing stopping a brand new proposal's outcome from overriding it. Around that same time, there were proposals to split levels from their worlds that failed. Today, such a thing would be preposterous. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 02:31, 4 March 2019 (EST)

Where do you get the name "Spike Top (fast)" from? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 02:49, 4 March 2019 (EST)

@SmokedChilli, i think that "fast" is an identifier. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:53, 4 March 2019 (EST)
:What he's asking is if it's called that in-game or anything like that. It's not in-game; it's simply Spike Top, as said by the wavery robotic voice. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:28, 4 March 2019 (EST)
::I mean that there cannot be two articles with the same name without an identifier. Also, this is not an item, this is simply a color behavioral variation of an enemy. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:33, 4 March 2019 (EST)

@LinkTheLefty: Okay, yeah, I didn't take that into consideration. I guess I'll cancel this proposal then. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 07:55, 4 March 2019 (EST)

== Merge Red Spike Top with this article ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|4-7|don't merge}}
This should've been done a long time ago. A Red Spike Top is the exact same thing as a regular Spike Top, just a different color than the other Spike Tops in ''TTYD''. It has the same stats and everything. These aren't like [[White Clubba]]s, which have higher stats, a resistance to ice, a weakness to fire, and an extra attack that normal [[Clubba]]s don't have, it's just a Spike Top that's red. Which is the default color for Spike Tops in every other game aside from ''SPM'', including the other ''Paper Mario'' games. Since color variations generally don't get their own articles and ''especially'' after that proposal to merge the Yoshi colors, there really is no excuse for this anymore.

'''Proposer''': {{User|7feetunder}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 9, 2019, at 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|7feetunder}} I fail to see how ''TTYD'' randomly deciding to change Spike Tops' primary color magically makes the red ones a new and unique thing. KP Koopas are at least something that ''TTYD'' came up with and not generically named. The only thing these things have to stand out is their Tattle, and unique profiles were not used as a justification to keep the [[ScareScraper]] bosses split.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I put the suggestion up a while back due to how the ''Color Splash'' recolors are handled. This is even less than that. This is a visual difference of ''one'' texture, and a complete lack of functional difference. KP Koopas are not a comparable situation, as their name isn't just "color identifier" "enemy name."
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all.
#{{User|HEROMARIO}} Per all.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Niiue}} I'm kinda wary about merging these since they're distinct RPG enemies with unique names and Tattles, and merging them feels worse from an organizational standpoint. Incidentally, regular Spike Tops drop Slow Shrooms, and Red Spike Tops apparently don't.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Niiue. I'm not too sure how to proceed. I opposed merging '''all''' of the Yoshis, and hoped we at least keep out the Super Mario World ones. I fear this might affect the Electro Koopas. And even worse, the blue Lava Bubble itself. And if it looks like i should bring up the Super Mario World Yoshis on the talk page, i'd do it later. Like i said, per Niiue.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} [[KP Koopa]]s are likewise base enemy palette swaps with identical stats and are fought in Glitz Pit. Besides, TTYD made Parabeetles and Spike Tops direct Buzzy Beetle derivatives instead of basing them on what was established previously, and Red Spike Top is both the RPG-original derivative (which this wiki still seems to give their own articles) and the only member of the otherwise unused Red Buzzy Beetle line. The split is thus perfectly fine imo, as bizarre as it sounds.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Smoked Chili
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Niiue and SmokedChili.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per SmokedChili.
#{{User|MarioManiac1981}} SmokedChilli drives the point home with the KP Koopas.

===Comments===
@Niiue: So? Differently colored Shy Guys appear in ''Paper Mario: Color Splash'' and are labeled as such in-game. Doesn't make them split-worthy. Your point about Red Spike Tops not dropping Slow Shrooms has no relevance whatsoever, since RSTs only appear as opponents in the Glitz Pit. The nature of Glitz Pit fights means that no item drops occur, so even if they were programmed to be capable of dropping items, there would be no way to see it happen. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 23:35, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
:Besides, it looks like TTYD is the only game with this disrespancy to begin with, as even the 64 Paper Mario had default Spike Tops as red. I think the only argument to keep merged is different tattle logs, different enemy entry in TTYD, item drops (yes, I read your comment but that's actually a point in favor keeping it split, since in tandem with that, they have different locations where you fight them), and a different name. As the Shy Guy situation is brought up, not sure to keep the Spike Tops split further. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:00, March 26, 2019 (EDT)

@SmokedChili Spike tops and Parabuzzies look basically like their prior artwork, and KP Koopas have some minor plot importance. Alternatively, all of their plot importance can go onto [[KP Pete]]'s page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:48, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
:I don't think Shy Guys should be split though. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:01, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
::One or the other. It is the ''exact'' same situation. Except these are ''less'' different. The only difference here ''period'' is the tattle (which is wrong in some versions) and a single texture. Having this be in the "profiles" section along with the other, and the ones in other PM games that look like this, would be ''better'' for organization. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:03, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
:::Location is also pretty important for distinguishing characteristics, though. I mean, your point would be stronger if they were fought in the same area of the game. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 22:33, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
::::Alternatively, it can be compared to the dark Little Mousers in one secret level of SMW2, where the color and locations were the only differences. To say nothing of the brown, blue, and gray enemy palettes in SMB, which in fact are in a different encoded location than the foreground palette (hence why underwater bloopers aren't green). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:56, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
:::::Well my point is, it's not the individual traits alone that make them distinct. It's a culmination of them that causes them to be distinct. Red Spike Tops already have two points in their favor, being fought in an entirely separate location than blue Spike Tops, and the aforementioned tattles. I do see where you're coming from though, hence why I didn't take a side here yet. Just playing advocate here. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 22:59, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
:That doesn't take away from the fact that Buzzy Beetle derivatives in TTYD are treated the same way as the Goomba ones: stick wings or spikes (or both) on them and call it a day instead of using what "looks basically like their prior artwork". Is it a gameplay reason or something else, we may never know. And KP Koopa page already has the basic necessary info without the plot stuff, which seems important because... why? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:07, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
::These are different from other derivatives in that they are functionally the same thing. As for the "location" thing, many enemies in the Glitz Pit are in other portions of the game; this basically functioned as the trash dump for enemies they couldn't otherwise fit into a game location (like Pokeys) but still wanted to implement. Additionally, it's worth noting that in a prototype, it seems the KPs ''were'' regular red-shelled Troopas, if the trivia point on [[KP Pete]]'s page is anything to go by. They probably just wanted them to look more distinct in the final so their asset reuse wasn't so conspicuous. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:17, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
:::For what it's worth, the trivia point on KP Pete's page is an [[List of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door pre-release and unused content#Miscellaneous|unsourced factoid]] that's existed on the wiki for [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door_pre-release_and_unused_content&oldid=645673 almost 10 years]. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 22:58, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
::::Regardless, that doesn't cover the other points. These are functionally ''less'' different than red and green Troopas in your average platformer, with the name difference being a color identifier. KPs can be compared to the situation regarding "Spookums" in the English SMRPG. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:23, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
Here's one thing I'd like to know: How can Red Spike Tops even be called "distinct RPG enemies" when 1) they're ''not distinct'' and 2) they aren't even new? KP Koopas, while not the first yellow-shelled Koopa Troopas, are at least something that ''TTYD'' actually came up with, and they have a name that doesn't pertain to their color in both English and Japanese. Red Spike Tops, on the other hand, are just that. They are not the "RPG-original derivative" as SmokedChili is erroneously claiming it is, since they are not original in the slightest. Red Spike Tops have been around since Spike Tops have been around, which is 14 years prior to the release of ''TTYD''. There was just no reason to call them that because ''that was their normal color''. And it still is. 

Think of it this way: Let's say a new ''Paper Mario'' game came out, and it was in the style of the first two games. Enemy Koopa Troopas are red normally, but at one point, you have to fight green Koopa Troopas for whatever reason. They are labeled as such in battle, but are functionally identical to regular Koopa Troopas. Would we create a "Green Koopa Troopa" article specifically for ''those'' green Koopa Troopas? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 23:12, March 29, 2019 (EDT)
:Expect red is ''not'' Spike Tops' normal color in TTYD, it's blue as with Buzzy Beetles. If it was, Red Spike Tops wouldn't be clarified as red. With how TTYD did it, Red Spike Tops are separate from the normal Spike Tops, which are blue in this game but red almost everywhere else. Which is why I call it bizarre. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:38, March 31, 2019 (EDT)

== Spike Helmet Sticker ==

In the Sticker Star section, would it make sense to put a bit on the Spike Helmet sticker? It has the same appearance as the shell of a spike top, but green. It could possibly imply that there are green Spike Tops?
I'm new here, so advice would be great. Thanks! [[User:WillowTehKitsune|WillowTehKitsune]] ([[User talk:WillowTehKitsune|talk]]) 13:11, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
:It matches the [[Spiked Goomba]]'s helmet a lot more than a Spike Top shell. I think it's just meant to be a generic helmet with a spike on it. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:14, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
::Besides, implying there are green Spike Tops from that is speculation, which we don't allow on articles. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 13:22, April 5, 2021 (EDT)

Thanks for the advice, this was really helpful. [[User:WillowTehKitsune|WillowTehKitsune]] ([[User talk:WillowTehKitsune|talk]]) 08:58, April 6, 2021 (EDT)

== Consider this a Spiny derivative as well as a Buzzy Beetle derivative? ==

So these are effectively a combination of the strengths of Buzzy Beetle and Spiny with an added wall-crawling ability in platformers. Also, the red color is likely inspired by Spiny and the JP names are just a combination of the two. While later appearances would make them look more similar to Buzzy Beetles, early art and sprites were more in-between as well (to say nothing of Buzzy and Spiny having the same faces in-game in the early days). For that matter, I might also bring up the [[Tiny Spinies]]. Anyways, I am suggesting considering Spike Tops a Spiny derivative as well, and considering they already have their own category, this shouldn't be an issue. This should also solve the situation with [[Thorny]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:31, April 29, 2021 (EDT)
:I've always seen Spike Tops as a mix of both Buzzy Beetles and Spinies. But I don't think TTYD's English translation is relevant here ([[Tiny Spinies]]): remember, Goomstar Temple, Bubu, Pickle Stone, Mushville, Chomp-Chomps, Parakoopa, Pale Piranha, Lakitu throws pipes... The Japanese name is just something like "The Spikespikes." {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 12:49, April 29, 2021 (EDT)
::I'd rather list them as either "comparable" or "relative", saying they're a variant is probably pushing it a bit. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 13:07, April 29, 2021 (EDT)
:::I'd go with relative, since they did seem to look like a cross between Spiny and Buzzy Beetle originally, but have since became more buzzy-beetle-like. Variant of Spiny seems like a bit much(And for all we know, Togemet could either be an actual cross between the 2 names or just "spiky buzzy beetle").[[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 07:50, February 4, 2022 (EST)
:I wasn't sure at first, but then I realized it could solve [[Kyodai Togemetto|this anomaly]] too. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:17, March 4, 2022 (EST)
:I also want to add that ''Super Princess Peach'' is one of the few games to contain Spike Top but not Buzzy Beetle, and in the [[Super Princess Peach#Glossary|glossary]], <s>Mecha-</s>Spike Tops are listed right after Spinies. This may be incidental given that the Fishing Boos are listed after Dry Bones for some reason, but generally speaking, closely connected enemies at least appear next to each other. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:21, July 31, 2022 (EDT)

== Merge Red Spike Top with Spike Top, Take Three ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|9-5|merge}}
{{quote|Aside from their colors, the two types of Spike Tops in The Thousand-Year Door are identical.|You don't say?}}

I stand by the previous 2 proposals for this merge. Red Spike Top is just a normal Spike Top, but red. The color normal Spike Tops use in ''every game'' '''''besides''''' ''TTYD and SPM''. Internally, they are the same too, which is a dead giveaway that this is just a color variant.

'''''They have unique names!'''''

Not really. Their name across all languages is just "color" "species", which is something that the Paper Mario series has done when it wants to give a species a color that isn't the standard. We're not splitting all the Shy Guy color swaps in PMCS for having "color" "species" names, are we?(and before you ask, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FymJhdxtviY&t=990s no that wasn't a localization thing.])

'''''Red Spike Tops don't drop Slow Shrooms!'''''

That may be true, but you need to realize something; The only Red Spike Tops you fight in TTYD are in the Glitz Pit, and in the Glitz Pit, enemies don't faint when you beat them. Instead, a cutscene happens and the winner of the match is announced, meaning it's impossible for an enemy to drop something. This is why Glitz Pit-Exclusive enemies don't have Item Drops(See Big Bandit and Hyper Bald Cleft if you don't believe me). If Red Spike Tops appeared elsewhere, they likely would have given them Item Drops, similar to what they did for [[Dark Craw]].

'''''KP Koopas are color variants, why aren't we merging those?'''''

KP Koopas have different internal stats, and a name that isn't "color" "species". It's not comparable to this.

'''''What about the Electrokoopas and the Blue Lava Bubble?'''''

The Electrokoopas behave differently from each-other, have different attacks and different methods of being defeated, and have internal names that aren't "color" "species". Red Spike Top is none of those things. As for Blue Lava Bubble, [https://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:Lava_Bubble_(blue)#Merge_the_remainder_of_this_page_to_Lava_Bubble that was already merged], so it's not a good point anymore.

'''''You only fight Red Spike Tops in Glitz Pit, thus giving them distinction!'''''

You fight [[Paper Mario: Color Splash bestiary|Different colors]] of Shy Guys and Snifits in different locations in Color Splash, Does that mean we split them? No, it doesn't.

'''''Red Spike Tops are part of the otherwise unused Red Buzzy Beetle family!'''''

Those are unused concepts that have most likely became obsolete as development went on. [[Screamy]] uses the design for what would have been the Smorgs, but we're not calling Screamy a Smorg now are we?

'''''TTYD made Spike Tops direct Buzzy Beetle derivatives!'''''

That's true, and is ''also'' my big, new point for merging these. TTYD calls the blue Spike Tops "a Buzzy Beetle with a spike on its back". When you talk to Spiky Joe, a Red Spike Top, he says this: "See this spike on my back? Without it, I'd just be an ordinary Buzzy Beetle!" [https://www.romhacking.net/download/documents/680/ you can see it for yourself here]. Since Blue Spike Tops are called Buzzy Beetles with spikes in-game, and Red Spike Tops are also just called Buzzy Beetles with spikes in-game, that means that the game ''itself'' is not making a distinction between the blue and red versions of Spike Tops.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Somethingone}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 29, 2022, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Somethingone}} TL, DR; They look the same as Spike Tops in every other game except SPM, They function exactly like the Blue Spike Tops in TTYD, Their name is just a generic "color" "species" that the Mario series normally does for color variants, and the game itself tells you through dialogue that there's no distinction to them beyond shell color. The only thing different about them ''period'' is their tattles, but we're not splitting the Toad colors for having unique bios in Mario Party Star Rush now, are we? Per the proposals from 2011, 2019, and now.
#{{User|Swallow}} I guess so.
#{{User|WildWario}} Per proposal.
#{{user|7feetunder}} Previous proposer, and my support for merging is as strong as ever.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Please.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. Also note [[Talk:Pale Piranha#Re-re-re-merge into Piranha Plant yet again: the Squeakwel|Pale Piranha]] is merged, and that has more distinction than this.
#{{User|Remembered Old Buddy}} Per all
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} If a split should've happened at all, the more logical approach would've been to split the blue Spike Top (potentially including ''Super Mario Maker'''s version), and keep Red Spike Top as part of the main article. That didn't happen, and it doesn't look to be on the table. Besides, Somethingone adds points I hadn't considered before, such as Spiky Joe's line, and the item drop difference being negligibly moot in actual gameplay. Given that the wiki's overall treatment of color variants is something that has [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18#Split the colored enemies|come up]] and [[Talk:Koopa Troopa#Split Red Koopa Troopa and Green Koopa Troopa|shot down]] several times, there's little point in keeping the Red Spike Top exception at this juncture.
#{{User|OhoJeeOnFire}} Per proposal. I don’t understand why we have all color variants merged. Take [[Green Pokey]], for instance. It was requested to be merged, and it is similar to the explanation above. So why don’t we simply merge this?

===Oppose===
#{{User|Tails777}} <s>Despite the points given, I'm still gonna oppose. In fact, I'd be bold enough to say that I'd support splitting multi-colored species since many of them have had different stats in some games compared to their "main colored variant" (examples being the ''Mario Baseball series'', ''Mario Sports Superstars'', ''Mario Kart Tour'' and Shy Guys in Smash Run in ''Smash 3DS'', which I am counting cause it concerns Mario series content in Smash). Heck, keeping KP Koopas split because of their internal stat differences only further supports that idea, since colored enemies in the ''Mario Baseball series'' are also differentiated by slight change in stats and a different name so really, I don't see how it's much different. I may be getting into an entirely different can of worms, but if we considered splitting colored species for their differences across multiple games, then I'd support merging these.</s> Per SmokedChili below me.
#{{User|Niiue}} Your point about how Red Spike Tops "likely would have" dropped items is pure unfounded speculation. I would've agreed with that point if there was at least an unused item drop in the game's data, but without any evidence, I don't see how this is a good argument. Additionally, Red Spike Tops were introduced before the wave of color variants seen in modern Paper Mario games, making them a unique case. Also note how regular Spike Tops don't have an identifier, which contradicts how color variants are handled in later games. The game clearly treats blue Spike Tops as the default.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Niiue. (Regarding Tails777's points, to be honest, I wouldn't really be opposed to more color splits if they have functional differences. You'd just need to be careful to avoid redundant articles.)
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} The proposal's reasoning is fine, but I feel Niiue's reasoning is slightly better.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} First of all, the Shy Guy comparison is apples and oranges. Shy Guys had color swaps in their first appearance; Spike Tops didn't, and neither did Magikoopas. There's no default color for basic Shy Guys in Color Splash while the other Guys are named "(subtype) Guy" when they are the only color, and CS leans towards core Mario series whose enemies' color swaps are merged on this wiki; TTYD treats all enemies unique per the tattle log, even the otherwise identical(ly named) green-shoed Iron Cleft for the sake of the "younger green brother" gag, and is more in its own bubble where enemies' color swaps are split from the base like, again, the Magikoopas. Second, going by the TTYD bestiary Red Spike Top is a combo of various peculiarities. It is a color swap in name like the Red, White and Green Magikoopas. It has the base enemy's colors while the base enemy has new colors, paralleling Pale Piranha/Killer Packun and Cleft/Moon Cleft. And like KP Koopas, it's got its own parameter changes (less coins and no items dropped) but this involves digging data without which we wouldn't have ever been able to tell the difference, not that it would've mattered when playing. Finally, the "no distinction beyond shell color" is applied by Goombella to KP Koopas and KP Paratroopas as well, so they're not treated anymore specially from normal Koopas in-game.

===Comments===
What internal stats make KP Koopas different from regular Koopas aside from the name KP Koopa? Also, what about the fact that Red Spike Tops also appear alongside normal Spike Tops? Are we just going to assume that they put two of the same enemy in the game and colored/named one differently? {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:Honestly, to me this really isn't that different to the multiple Shy Guy and Snifit colors in Color Splash which also have the color at the start of the names and have identical stats. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 20:25, January 15, 2022 (EST)
:@Tails777 to answer your questions:
: ''What internal stats make KP Koopas different from regular Koopas aside from the name KP Koopa?''
: [https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Koopa_Troopa_profiles_and_statistics#Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door things] [[KP Koopas|like]] Dizzy, Freeze, Sleep, etc. those kinds of stats.
: ''Also, what about the fact that Red Spike Tops also appear alongside normal Spike Tops?''
: Multiple colors of Shy Guys appear alongside each other in CS, and red and green Koopa Troopas appear in SPM as enemies, this is no different from that.
: ''Are we just going to assume that they put two of the same enemy in the game and colored/named one differently?''
: Well that's what they did with the shy guys and snifits in CS and TOK so, yea, probably. [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 20:29, January 15, 2022 (EST)

I get the impression that Red Spike Top was intended to be a stronger variant of Spike Top from the Tattle Log and the seemingly higher defense stat (that isn't really borne out but seems like there was an impression there). I get that maybe if there are variants of Spike Tops that come in yellow, green, purple, etc and treated as if interchangeable like colored Toads and Shy Guys, then Red Spike Top should be merged, but there's only one color variant and it's restricted to one part of the game so I don't think the comparison to those color variants is quite a strong one. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:33, January 16, 2022 (EST)

@Hewer: I don’t think Pale Piranha’s are a good comparison, as multiple translations suggest they are intended to be normal Piranha Plants to begin with. And they can’t be compared to the Pit Piranha Plants because they are also suggested to be different than normal Piranha Plants. Whereas Red Spike Tops are merely being suggested to be pallet swaps of enemies also in the game. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:Not to mention, Pale Piranha's proposal has a significant number of disagreements, with merge winning on a pretty small margin. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:03, January 16, 2022 (EST)

@Niiue: 

''Red Spike Tops were introduced before the wave of color variants seen in modern Paper Mario games''

Different color variants of Shy Guys appeared in the ''first'' Paper Mario game.

''note how regular Spike Tops don't have an identifier, which contradicts how color variants are handled in later games''

The color variants in Color Splash aren't called "species (color)", they're called "color" "species". [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euhkg8VCWf4&t=1320 you can see it for yourself here].

''The game clearly treats blue Spike Tops as the default.''

I'll just copy what I said for my last point: "TTYD calls the blue Spike Tops "a Buzzy Beetle with a spike on its back". When you talk to Spiky Joe, a Red Spike Top, he says this: "See this spike on my back? Without it, I'd just be an ordinary Buzzy Beetle!" [https://www.romhacking.net/download/documents/680/ you can see it for yourself here]." Yes, Blue is the color used by almost all Spike Tops, but the game isn't saying that Red Spike Tops are a special case either. [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 18:54, January 16, 2022 (EST)
:The Shy Guys in the first game aren't distinguished from each other in any way, though. Niiue is specifically referring to the color variants that the game does acknowledge in modern games i.e. Color Splash. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:40, January 16, 2022 (EST)
::I don't really see how that matters? In PM64, they were different colors of Shy Guys. When the color variants of Shy Guys were brought back in Color Splash, they were different colors of Shy Guys. The only thing different between those 2 appearances is that Color Splash gave the color variants "color" "species" names. That doesn't mean one appearance is more color-variant-y or more sub-species-y than the other, does it? [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 20:06, January 16, 2022 (EST)

@OhoJeeOnFire: Green Pokey is split because it has different stats, isn't immune to jumps, and a design change that isn't a color swap(it lacks spikes, see: [[File:PMCS Green Pokey.png|60px]][[File:PMCS Pokey.png|60px]]). {{Unsigned|Somethingone}}
{{br}}

@SmokedChili: I wouldn't be entirely against merging the KP Koopas with the normal Koopa Troopas myself, especially if the game also says they're just shell color swaps. And the [[Armored Harriers]] are both merged, despite like you said having distinct field tattles and logs, so TTYD giving enemies unique tattles isn't exactly a deal-breaker(because honestly the differences between the Armored Harriers' and Red Spike Top's and KP Koopas' situations is extremely minimal). Also for the Magikoopas, see [[Talk:Magikoopa#Alternate_colors|this]]. [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 13:08, January 24, 2022 (EST)
:I still would split them because of the names and the game they first appeared in, regardless of how small a difference. And Iron Cleft bros share the same name and are a two-in-one deal because tattling one also logs the other, which doesn't apply for anything else. And Magikoopa color swaps are still exclusive to spin-offs, unlike Shy Guy color swaps which in PM count as a single enemy. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 12:38, January 25, 2022 (EST)

== Consider Spike Top derived from both Buzzy Beetles and Spinies ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|8-11|Do not consider Spike Top derived from Spinies}}
When Spinies and Buzzy Beetles were introduced in ''Super Mario Bros.'', it was clear they were related in some way beyond both being turtles/"Koopas," but what the relation was wasn't clear, seeing as they acted as polar opposites (one's immune to jumps, one's immune to fire). Spike Tops are, for all intents and purposes, a "best of both worlds" (or for players, worst) combination of Spinies and Buzzies: they're spiked ''and'' hard shelled, while their wall-crawling ability is an extension of both species' previously established ability to walk on ceilings. This extends to their designs, and while it was more obvious in the earlier days:
<gallery>
SMB-Spiny Art2.png|Red shell, spiked, clear eyes, clear rim and plastron
SMBTLL-Buzzle Beetle Art2.png|Round, shiny shell
SMWSpikeTop.png|All of the above
</gallery>
<gallery>
SpinyL.gif|Spiked, red(dish) shell, poking-out head
BuzzyBeetleL.gif|Clear pupils, round,shiny shell, bouncy walk anim
SpiketopSMW.gif|All of the above and too many legs (SMW sprites were weird)
</gallery>

it is still present currently:
<gallery>
NSMBW Spiny Artwork.png|Spiked, red shell, angry eyes
NSMBU Buzzy Beetle Artwork.png|Shiny, round shell, glowing eyes, visible beak
Spike Top.png|All of the above
</gallery>

While it has drifted more towards Buzzy Beetle, the Spiny influence is still there with the red shell, angry eyes, and (most obviously) the spike - though it is designed more like one of Bowser's spikes, this seems to be a SMW design oddity that never went away, like how [[Porcupuffer]] looks very little like other Cheep Cheeps nowadays. Considering SMW also saw the debut of [[Fishing Boo]], another enemy based as a combination of two enemies waaaaaay more different than these two, I don't see this being much of a stretch at all. Also, their Japanese name seems like a deliberate combination (Toge Met), though it could be read as just spikes rather than Spiny, I find the Spiny connection far more likely.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>June 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to June 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to June 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Get the point?
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} What a sharp idea!
#{{User|Platform}} ♯
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Sharp like your arguments!
#{{User|Okapii}} There are a lot of good points being made here.
#{{User|Blinker}} I suppose the variant confusion can be tack-led some other time.
#{{User|Biggestman}} I can't believe the enemy with the Japanese name of "Togemet" isn't considered a variant of "Togezo" and "Met". Here's where I would include a pun like everyone else but that's besides the point.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.

===Oppose===
#{{User|SmokedChili}} So, a bunch of similarities Spike Top has with Buzzy Beetle and Spiny means it's related to both as an a+b=c and proving the deeper relation between the two SMB enemies (what?) while its own take as a spiny enemy is just a design oddity from the SMW days... yeah right, this sounds like throwing in everything and the kitchen sink as the evidence because similarities while anything against Spike Top being Spiny derivative is just oddities that can be handwaved. As for the Japanese name, by that same logic most other spiked enemies are derived from Spiny because surely it must be tied to Spiny's Japanese name, or most winged enemies are derived from Koopa Paratroopa since their Japanese name contains "Pata" from Patapata.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I'm not convinced. Per SmokedChili. Sorry, or not sorry, this idea falls "b" (if you know what i mean) This proposal seems to be built on random observation/assumption. You may think i'm being unreasonable for assuming this is a coincidence, but i stand by what i said.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per the users above, this is pure speculation. The proposal seems to de-emphasize that "toge" is just the Japanese word for spike, as well as the fact that Spike Tops clearly don't resemble Spinies even in their debut appearance <s>(which is just written off as "SMW sprites are weird, man!")</s> (ignore this, I misunderstood a comment on the Spike Top's six legs). Not to mention it tries to establish a connection by comparing official artwork from two different games. Having enemies be spiky, danger-color-coded, or angry is ''extremely'' common and an easy way to make an enemy seem tougher (see also: [[Prickly Goomba]]s, [[Spiny Cheep Cheep]]s, [[Prickly Piranha Plant]]s), so to call these traits in Spike Tops a deliberate homage to Spinies specifically makes no sense.
#{{User|Arend}} After abstaining and thinking what to pick... ehhh, I oppose... per all. I don't doubt that Spinies and Buzzies are related, and in a sense, so would be Spike Tops, since they're clearly a variant of Buzzies, but calling Spike Tops outright a variant of Spinies as well? It sounds too speculative. Like DrippingYellow said, "toge" is already a Japanese word for "thorn" or "spike", and has been implemented in ''various'' Japanese titles for spiked enemies and objects, not just "Togezō". And, may I also remind people that in most titles, particularly modern ''Mario'' games, all the ''Paper Mario'' games, and classic styles in the ''Super Mario Maker'' games (which opted to give Rocky Wrench his shell from SMB3 in those classic styles), Spike Top clearly takes way more from Buzzy Beetle than Spiny? For goodness sake, in ''The Thousand-Year Door'' and ''Super Paper Mario'', [[:File:PMTTYD Spike Top Sprite.png|Spike Top]] is literally just [[:File:PMTTYD Buzzy Beetle Sprite.png|Buzzy Beetle]] with a spike on top and no other differences, whereas in the same games, [[:File:Spiny PMTTYD.png|Spiny]] has a ''completely different head with bulging eyes, a lighter skintone, and a split claw akin to a cloven hoof''. I think that is supposed to say that Spike Tops were always supposed to be Buzzies first.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all, but especially highlighting how in ''The Thousand-Year Door'' and ''Super Paper Mario'', the designs of Buzzy Beetles and Spike Tops are ''exactly'' the same, color and all, except for the spike. Fishing Boos are a different case: for the Boo connection, their name is quite literally "Fishing '''Boo'''", and in terms of its design, in ''Super Mario World'', it uses the same sprite as [[Fishin' Lakitu]] for the fishing rod. Neither of these relationships can be drawn between Spike Tops and Spinies; in fact, to make the comparison is pointless.
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} These are clearly variants of Buzzy Beetles.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all, but particularly those who made comments about this being speculation and not confirmed by any source.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all
#{{User|Axis}} Per all
#{{User|Cadrega86}} I can see the similarities to Spinies, but this is just speculation (especially saying "toge" is a reference to "togezō" and not just a generic "spike"). Their design is clearly derivative of Buzzy Beetles.

===Comments===
When you say "derived from" Buzzy Beetles, is that "variant of" or "subject origin"? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:12, May 22, 2024 (EDT)
:It'd be variant, as that was previously "derived species." I still occasionally use that wording in discussion when it flows better. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:58, May 22, 2024 (EDT)
::I see, thanks for explaning. Hrm, I want to support this, but there's one thing bugging me. And it's not about this proposal specifically, so I'll probably support it anyway, but... According to [[:Template:Species infobox]], A is considered a variant of B if A is a subtype of B. That's presumably why Goombrat is not a variant of Goomba, despite, you know, everything about it, because a bio says "Nobody is quite sure of their exact relation to Goombas." And, well, we can't exactly be sure of Spike Top's relation to Spiny, can we? It is known that Spike Tops are Buzzy Beetles (with spikes), but not that they're also Spinies (even if they are clearly also based on them). And all of this is making me ask what the word "variant" is even taken to mean. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:02, May 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::That's a bit of an issue with taking "these aren't the same as these" or "these are related to these" in bios at 100% face-value, ultimately. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:05, May 24, 2024 (EDT)

Concurrently, Spike Tops are considered "relatives" of Spinies, and vice versa, whereas Buzzy Beetles don't have any relatives (beyond their variants of course), even though this proposal states that Spinies and Buzzies are clearly related. If this proposal passes, would that mean that Buzzy Beetles will be considered relatives of Spinies in place, on top of Spike Top being considered a variant of both? {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:27, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
:I suppose. It's not part of the explicit goal, though, but a lot of these parameters haven't been around too terrifically long. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:48, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
::What makes you say the two are related, by the way? The only thing I can think of is that they have little, shadowy heads, while Koopa Troopas have large ones, but that's probably just to keep their sprites smaller. Other than that, each has a different shell (segmented/spiny/metallic), and that's about it. (Thinking about the first game anyway.) [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:16, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::Because they function as polar opposites, a yin-and-yang if you will, and are, yes, squat little turtles. The only visual difference in the context of the first game's sprites is one has a low, spiked shell and one has a smooth, domed shell. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:22, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::Fair enough. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:02, May 24, 2024 (EDT)

{{multiple image
|align=right
|direction=horizontal
|image1=PMTOK_Buzzy_Beetle.png
|image2=PMTOK_Spike_Top.png
|image3=PMTOK_Spiny.png
|width1=100
|width2=100
|width3=100
}}
::::I guess another argument in favor of this would be the Origami King designs of these enemies, where the only difference between the Spiny and the Buzzies is the design of the eyes and presence or absence of a tail. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:57, May 25, 2024 (EDT)


@SmokedChili Inspired by, yes, variation thereof, no. Paragoomba was definitely based on Koopa Paratroopa, but it's not a subtype of them. Spike Tops are just such a clear (A+B)/2 halfway point that it seems lopsided to treat it as a subtype of one but not the other. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:20, May 24, 2024 (EDT)
:You're in no position here to claim what's lopsided when you began your proposal stating how could the two SMB enemies be related beyond being Turtle Tribe members and then using the SMW enemy combining their attributes as that missing link. Better not jump to conclusions like that and just consider these relations at their most basic level e.g. Spike Top is to Spiny what Spiny Cheep Cheep is to Spiny. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 04:57, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
::...that itself wasn't intended as an argument, I went back and wrote that in after typing the rest out because it flowed organically (also I was reminded of a related situation in Pokemon with Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan getting Tyrogue, but anyways, that's beside the point....). Spiny Cheep Cheep, Koopatrol, Spiked Goomba, and Spiked Pirate aren't in ''quite'' the same situation, if only by virtue of not being in the "original sprite and artwork shared 60% of its design with the other basis" department - and the reddened shell helps. (Honestly, I don't know why you're being so aggressive on this.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:01, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::(Of course you'd wonder why someone is being aggressive on this when they put some more oomph for opposing.) You still decided to write that, and I found it stupid because you wrote it as if the Buzzy-Spiny connection was there from day one. Sure, Spike Top has similarities with Spiny, but so what? Its basis is Buzzy Beetle and it is to Spiny like that what Spiny Cheep Cheep - whose basis is Cheep Cheep - is to Spiny, simply sharing the spikiness. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:25, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::Well and being an extra-squat turtle. Moreso than Troopas started out being, I mean. And having the same coloration as Spiny generally speaking. That's more than a black or blue fish without anything resembling a turtle shell has. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:37, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Whoopty-flippity-doo, it's not like we can't cover the Spiny similarities without needing to take it as a direct proof of derivation. Or would that be too much of lying by omission to you? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 04:39, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
::::::...I get the ''distinct'' impression you hold some sort of grudge against me, you're not this rude to anyone else on proposals you oppose. And you oppose mine a lot, and you veer towards this attitude. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:29, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Jesus Christ how horrifying, someone is being rougher with you than you'd like. If I didn't find anything wrong with your proposal I wouldn't be opposing in the first place. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 14:47, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Well I mean most of what you've been saying here has been less about the proposal and more just digs about my integrity. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:49, May 26, 2024 (EDT)

:Is it really lopsided? Spike Top has been described as a Buzzy Beetle with a spike multiple times, never as a Spiny. (Also, its current design is a lot closer to Buzzy Beetle than to Spiny, what with having almost exactly the same shape, but that's beside the point.) I'm supporting this in the sense that, design-wise, Spike Top is directly based on both enemies, the same way as Rocky and Monty, but saying that Buzzy Beetle is a '''subtype''' of Spiny feels too specific. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:19, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
::Was that last sentence a typo? Because I'm not saying Buzzy is a subtype of Spiny. (Also Spike Tops have at least once been described as Spinies: see the [[Tiny Spinies]], which is made up of red-colored Spike Tops.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:01, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::Oops, yes, I meant to say Spike Top, not Buzzy Beetle. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:47, May 25, 2024 (EDT)

@DrippingYellow ''which is just written off as "SMW sprites are weird, man!"'' ...no? Note that I put "all of the above" there. The only thing about noting that those sprites are weird is that it has an unusual number of legs... which is also different from Buzzy Beetle's, so I don't know what you're getting at there. Also, Spiny and Buzzy didn't -have- dedicated artwork for SMW, but the sources I could find just reused the previous art, so that's what I did. Also also, I didn't gloss over the "toge" thing: that's literally the last sentence of the proposal. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:06, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
:My bad about the "SMW sprites" comment, I misremembered the context it was used in. I know there isn't any Buzzy Beetle or Spiny art for SMW, but I believe my point still stands about how comparing art from different eras is not a good indication of design evolution, though I don't think it's pivotal to my reasoning. And I stand by my "glossing over" comment. You didn't completely ignore it, but you did ''very'' briefly mention at the end that ''toge'' "could be read as" spike, then immediately afterwards say you find the Spiny connection more likely, hence why I saw it as "glossing over". {{unsigned|DrippingYellow}}
::Well, it's not "from different eras." They reused artwork a lot in the pre-SM64 time, so that's really all a single "era" in my book at least (the next "artwork" era was from SM64 to Luigi's Mansion, and then basically all games following that). And I wouldn't say "spending a small amount of time on a point I don't find important" as "glossing over" it, "glossing over" would imply I'm deliberately trying to hide or obfuscate it. At least, that's my understanding of the phrase. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:55, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
:::Ah, I guess my word choice does make it sound like it was intentional on your part. I assume it'll be alright if I change the word choice in my vote to something more favorable?
:::Anyway, I'm not sure how artwork being reused in manuals and the like means the developers never iterated on existing designs. Even when they did re-use artwork, they tended to modify them to more closely match the current designs (at least, as much as they could within the confines of using old stock artwork). Take the [[:File:Piranha_Plant_SMB.png|original SMB art for Piranha Plant]], which, [[:File:Yoshi-Pakkun.jpg|when re-used for ''Yoshi'']], was given different colors to match the current appearance of Piranha Plants, or this [[:File:SMB3_Buzzy_Beetle.png|artwork of a Buzzy on the ceiling]] for SMB3 (I have no idea where from, looks like it's from Nintendo Power or something?), which, while clearly based on the SMB1 artwork, had a white section sloppily added to the shell to match how it appears in-game.
:::And they definitely did iterate on the Buzzy design between SMB and SMW. Compare the SMB1 artwork to the artwork used by [[:File:SMB3_BusterBeetle.jpg|both]] [[:File:SMB3_Parabeetle.jpg|variants]] of Buzzies in SMB3, which have Spike Top-esque rims and plastrons (clearly by no means a design element exclusive to Spinies), as well as Spiny-like, mouthless heads with dot-eyes reminiscent of those found in the older ''Paper Mario'' games.
:::At that point, the only parallels you can drive between Spinies and Spike Tops in old artwork that aren't also shared by Buzzies are that both have red shells and are spiky, but Spinies have multiple spikes and Spike Tops only one, and even from the beginning Spike Tops had a noticably darker shell in artwork compared to Spinies. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 13:14, May 27, 2024 (EDT)
::::The SMB3 one was actually from the manual and I considered using it, but since it's far away, unfocused, and upside-down, I opted not to because it's harder to see compared to the others (and guidebooks 'n' such at the time still tended to prioritize the SMB/LL one anyway). By the same token, I raise you [[Bony Beetle]], which despite debuting in SMW as well and supposedly being a Buzzy Beetle skeleton, looked ''nothing'' like one and more like an improperly assembled Dry Bones or a mummified Galoomba than a skeletal Buzzy Beetle until PMSS reintroduced them. None of the other Buzzies at any given point resembled it, so I'm not sure how good a comparison the Buster and Paras are... especially when their faces (the latter of which still appear to this day) look more like Spiny's and original Spike Top's than normal Buzzies looked then or now - though they did admittedly look like that in the early PM games, so I'll give you that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:23, May 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Bony Beetle is definitely an enigma, but the Dry Bones in SMW also has notable departures from its fleshy counterpart, having a notably bigger head, teeth (something that has stuck even for modern designs ever since it was introduced in SMB3), and gloves with no arms. The Bony Beetle should probably be considered an exception to the Buzzies' design history in the same way. I feel like it's worth noting that the in-game sprites for Buzzy Beetles in ''Super Mario World'' and the ''All-Stars'' remake of ''Super Mario Bros'' do show their face similarly to the Beetle variants in SMB3, even giving them a big ol' goofy eyeball similar to that on the Spike Top's SMW sprite. That might've been where ''Paper Mario'' got the idea to show their face. ''Paper Mario'' Buzzies even share the same "claws" at the tips of their feet as in the official artwork for Spike Tops. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 15:03, May 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::::You know, if anything, I'm thinking Bony Beetle's whole existence kinda weakens the argument for this proposal, being a type of Buzzy Beetle with Spiny-like features, like spikes and angry eyes (half the time, at least). [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:49, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Aside from the spikes, though, it's not given any level of connection; note the spiked ones in ''Paper Mario'' looked waaaaaaaaaaaay different from either Buzzy or Spiny, unlike Spike Top which still follows the same size parameters, body plan, and animation as both of them. This at least has the JP name supporting it and the Tiny Spinies being Spike Tops. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:55, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::I should probably note that the "Tiny Spinies" thing is only in the English version of the game, and the other localizations, including the Japanese one, have their names refer to their spikiness. Also, aside from the red-colored shells, these red Spike Tops still look identical to Buzzy Beetles, while Spinies in comparison still have different-shaped heads, bulging eyes, a lighter skintone, and cloven claws.<br>Plus, the JP name might still be just a combination of "toge" and "met", since "toge" is an actual Japanese word meaning "spike" or "thorn". It could maybe ''allude'' to "Togezō", but moreso in the way the "pata" from "[[Paragoomba|Patakuribō]]" is a reference to "[[Koopa Paratroopa|Patapata]]", and we sure ain't gonna call those variants of each other anytime soon. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:31, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, I brought that up before a few times. I just feel that, unlike with those, there's enough room to say they're directly derived rather than loosely inspired. Like what Parabones is to Paratroopa, despite not sharing any games other than the ''Mario Maker'' ones that have "para-" versions of ''everything''. Another example, actually, [[Noko Bombette]], which is treated by the wiki as a derivative of both Buzzy Beetle and [[Bombshell Koopa]] despite visually only resembling the former and only behaving like the latter (ie, like Bob-ombs), simply because of a similar naming thing to Togemet (lost by the ''Land'' games' ridiculously bad localization job). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:50, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::It's... not a similar naming thing, though. It's literally called "''[[Bombshell Koopa|Nokobon]] [[Buzzy Beetle|Metto]]''" in Japanese, not a portmanteau like what you think ''Togemetto'' is. The equivalent situation for Spike Top would be if it were called ''Togezo Metto'', which it's not. And I feel like Parabones isn't comparable either, since Dry Bones and Paratroopas are both variations of the same enemy, so it is reasonable to assume that the variant of one variation with similar traits to another variation is a variant of both variations. In comparison, Buzzies and Spinys were introduced simultaneously (so there is no clear "original" variation), and there is no explicit connection between the two enemies aside from both being quadruped, low-crawling [[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]s. "Inferring" a close connection between the two enemies here ("the yin to Buzzy Beetle's yang") just seems like speculation. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:50, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::[[Kyodai Togemetto]] is called a giant Spike Top, but looks like and leads over a group of Spinies (to the point the article states it ''is'' a Spiny, despite being called a Spike Top). As far as that manga goes, they seem to be treated as a variation on Spiny at any rate. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:21, May 30, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::Given that this is the ''only'' time something called a Spike Top or "Togemetto" is undoubtedly a Spiny in every perspective but name, I'm more inclined to believe this is a misconception from the mangaka, rather than a hard fact that should be followed to this day (especially since the issue this giant Spiny appeared in was from ''1992'', which was still an early Mario phase, and ''also'' since chapter 8 of that issue was its ''only'' appearance). A ''Super Mario-Kun'' issue made in this day an age would've called it a "Kyodai Togezō" instead. Early ''Super Mario-Kun'' had its oddities anyway: [[Metto Oyakata]] from the same issue doesn't really resemble much of a Buzzy Beetle itself, either. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:34, May 30, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 356: / Line 356: @@
 ::::::::::[[Kyodai Togemetto]] is called a giant Spike Top, but looks like and leads over a group of Spinies (to the point the article states it ''is'' a Spiny, despite being called a Spike Top). As far as that manga goes, they seem to be treated as a variation on Spiny at any rate. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:21, May 30, 2024 (EDT)
 :::::::::::Given that this is the ''only'' time something called a Spike Top or "Togemetto" is undoubtedly a Spiny in every perspective but name, I'm more inclined to believe this is a misconception from the mangaka, rather than a hard fact that should be followed to this day (especially since the issue this giant Spiny appeared in was from ''1992'', which was still an early Mario phase, and ''also'' since chapter 8 of that issue was its ''only'' appearance). A ''Super Mario-Kun'' issue made in this day an age would've called it a "Kyodai Togezō" instead. Early ''Super Mario-Kun'' had its oddities anyway: [[Metto Oyakata]] from the same issue doesn't really resemble much of a Buzzy Beetle itself, either. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:34, May 30, 2024 (EDT)
-== Blue Spike Tops are different from normal ones ==
-You see: in some paper mario and mario maker series, their are blue versions of Spike Tops, and are the same enemy in the wiki page, however, I don't think they can be the same species, so let's make the blue shelled Spike Tops from paper mario and mario maker different variants, yeah? Think about what I said. [[Special:Contributions/86.162.66.23|86.162.66.23]] 10:38, June 25, 2024 (EDT)
-:The blue Spike Tops in the Paper Mario titles are named the exact same as any other Spike Top in literally every language, and the Red Spike Top enemy from Thousand-Year Door (which has been merged to here) even has the exact same stats as the regular (blue) Spike Top enemy you'll find in Creepy Steeple. If the ''only'' difference between the two is the shell color, then it's not worth splitting. We're not splitting [[Shy Guy]] into its red, green, blue and yellow color variants either.<br>As for the blue Spike Tops in Mario Maker, they are ''also'' named just "Spike Top", and they only have two more differences: their skin is also blue, and they move faster. Again, color differences are not worth splitting, and moving faster is too minimal of a behavioral change to warrant a split alone. If these blue Spike Tops had a different name, ''then'' a split might be worth considering, but for now, this isn't any more drastic than red [[Koopa Troopa]]s turning at ledges (which is why we haven't split green and red Koopa Troopas either). {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:31, June 25, 2024 (EDT)
-== Blue Spike Tops are different from normal ones 2 ==
-I know they have the same name but they literally move faster than normal ones,
-and for the record, I didn't even mention shy guys or Koopa troops once! What do that have to do with this conversation? [[Special:Contributions/5.80.95.135|5.80.95.135]] 17:00, August 27, 2024 (EDT)
-:"Moving faster" is even ''less'' different than the Shy Guys and Koopa Troopas turning on edges. Also, the four colors of Koopa Troopa in SMW have some slight speed differences, and [[Climbing Koopa]]s always have speed differences between colors, and we don't split any of those. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:12, August 27, 2024 (EDT)
-:My point has unchanged from the previous conversation about this. This is nothing more than a color variant with a ''slight'' difference in movement speeds. We haven't been splitting other enemy variants for color differences and slight behavior changes.<br>Which, if you ''paid attention to what I have said before'', is also why I brought up Shy Guys and Koopa Troopas in the first place: these are ''examples'' of enemies we have NOT split the color variants of because of, like the blue Spike Top, how ''insignificant'' these differences are. As I stated earlier, there's little to no differences between Shy Guys of the colors red, green, blue or yellow: they all behave the same; and as I ''also'' stated earlier, the only differences between green and red Koopa Troopas is that the red ones turn at ledges. And as I ''also'' stated earlier, the blue Spike Top changing speed is ''just as minor of a difference'' as turning at ledges. ''All of that means'': if all of these color and behavior differences between Shy Guys and Koopa Troopas are not worth splitting, '''then the color and behavior differences between the two Spike Tops is ALSO NOT WORTH SPLITTING.''' {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:00, August 27, 2024 (EDT)
-I.... guess I got carried away...
-{{unsigned|31.127.147.101}}
-== Blue Spike Tops are not different from normal ones ==
-Okay fine! You win! Spike Tops(Blue) will never be apart! Even though some different enemies have the same name as others!! But don't you get what I'n trying to tell you people!? Some enemies have the same name as others and there are some that were different due to their coloration! Like the Green Pokey from Paper Mario Sticker Star and Colour Splash![[Special:Contributions/31.127.147.101|31.127.147.101]] 15:21, September 5, 2024 (EDT)
-:The colored ones are split because they have different stats, quotes, appearances (I'm not talking about the color here; Green Pokeys, your example, have small spines), and an actual name to distinguish themselves from their base enemies, much unlike the fast Spike Top, which is only blue and slightly faster. Regarding your point on enemies with the same name, the ones that are split are split because they aren't the same thing. Skeeters from ''Super Mario 64'' and ''New Super Mario Bros.'' are functionally different enemies that happen to share a name and a somewhat similar appearance. Li'l Cinders are sometimes called "Lava Bubbles" but they aren't the same thing, right? Not to mention Big Cheep Cheep and Cheep Chomp both being called Bubba at some point. The same name doesn't mean the same thing. Fast Spike Tops are given the same name, but are not different enough to be separate.
-:Also, you don't need to make a new section every time, y'know. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 15:37, September 6, 2024 (EDT)
-How did you know that was me? {{unsigned|31.127.147.101}}
-:...because only the same person would continue where the previous IP would have left off, using the exact same arguments and sentence structure? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:32, September 8, 2024 (EDT)